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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/14/2008 12:06 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom:
If my identity just IS the identity of the Son, then God is not, as Zizy says, “having personal communion with selves other than God’s own self”; he’s just having communion with his own divine ‘self’ of the Son. So long as you limit the HOW of divine-human relationality to the HOW of the incarnation, you CANNOT be fine with God’s wanting to have selves/persons other God’s own triune selves with whom to have interpersonal communion. Why? Because (a) there is no interpersonal communion between the divine PERSON of the Son and the human NATURE of the Son, and (b) you’re limiting your explanations/models to the incarnation.
and...
What we see in the incarnation is the SON and the FATHER relating interpersonally in human nature. God brings to earth, in human nature, the same eternal relationship that defines him essentially, so we can SEE what love and interpersonal relations look like. But when I look at YOU relating to God, I don’t see that—no. I see a HUMAN SELF, a non-divine person relating interpersonally with God in the same way (freely, kenotically, creatively, personally, etc.) the Son and the Father demonstrated via the incarnation. We love and relate as persons the only possible way any personal being loves and relates, the way God does. But that doesn’t mean we ARE the self of the Son, the person of the SON (himself) loving and relating to the Father.
This PERSONAL COMMUNION between the Uncreated Father and the Uncreated Son (who is INSIDE of us on the deepest of levels) can be experienced by the created human spirit (the "heart", the created "I" facilitator) in the created human hypostasis via the Uncreated Holy Spirit "indwelling" that human hypostasis...as the created human spirit, in "poverty-of-spirit", actively "rests" in the Uncreated Holy Spirit of Christ.
In being the Incarnate Word, Jesus' created human spirit (common in nature to ours) related to the Uncreated Holy Spirit just like every other human has the potential to do. In him it was ACTUALIZED in his being the Incarnation of the Word. All this leads to an amazing possibility for HUMAN experience...
"Abba Father!"
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John 14:23
Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. (Where will that home be? Maybe the human "heart"?)
John 17:20-26
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
Romans 8:14-17
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit (OF CHRIST-THE-LOGOS) you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Galatians 4:4-7
...when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." So you are no longer slaves, but God's children; and since you are his children, he has made you also heirs.
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Combining this with the mystical reality of the Eucharist's epicletic reality, where we can actually partake in the REAL PRESENCE (body/blood) of Christ...
You have human PERSONS who have integrated their personhood IN GOD...and are Christ's Bride, and in so being...ARE "Christ" in being His Body, one with him "spirit", "mind", and "body".
We become truly our OWN...because we live by the KNOWLEDGE of being GOD'S.
Does this make any sense?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/14/2008 12:24:07 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/14/2008 12:16 PM (GMT -6) | | The SAME VEHICLE by which Uncreated God the Son experienced PERSONAL birth, ignorance, and death (God was born. God died, etc.) is the SAME VEHICLE by which other humans experience the PERSONAL communion enjoyed by the Eternal Godhead.
The human spirit.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/14/2008 1:05 PM (GMT -6) | |
Tom: What do you think about that last quote of Zizy by AP?
B: Can you pull it out for me, Tom?
Tom: Sure. Here’s AP's quote:
“…the world [is] a product of freedom and love, not of necessity. This has important existential consequences in that created existence results from the love of God and depends on the love of God for its survival. As Zizioulas himself says, ‘[...] the Christian God does not create because God loves the beautiful and wishes to give form and beauty to the cosmos. God creates because God wishes to exist something other than God’s own self, with which…God wishes to be in communion’.”
Tom
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/14/2008 6:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Tell you what.
Just be as "one" with God in Christ by the Spirit as you believe you can be.
I guess that's all one can ask.
Love,
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/14/2008 7:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Actually...let's do this, Tom.
I will agree that there are created human "persons" (by sheer divine fiat, I suppose) that undergird the "hypostasized nature" of the human hypostatic unity (human spirit/soul--body).
(Long sentence warning... )
Will you agree that it is POSSIBLE that these human "persons" are to be "ONE" with the Triune God and each other by Spirit-filled, Spirit-lead, Spirit-empowered, Spirit-transformed life IN Christ-the-Logos (being one with Christ in "spirit", "mind", and "body/blood" ) such that Christ-the-Logos INDWELLS their human "hearts" via the power of the Holy Spirit...as these human "persons" live humble, obedient, self-giving lives to God in "poverty-of-spirit?"
Can we make a deal? 
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/14/2008 7:19:11 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/14/2008 7:26 PM (GMT -6) | | I believe that what I've said above actually occurs. Thus a human person's identity, mediated through the human spirit/heart/nous, becomes a BI-POLAR ASSYMETRICAL RELATIONSHIP (LODER, SHULTZ!!!) built upon the Uncreated Father-Son relationship that exists in the Uncreated Holy Spirit (ZIZY, WARE!!!). This becomes the very center of how one sees oneself.
"Abba, Father!"
--"I, not I, but Christ-the-Logos", the defining identity of a "new being IN CHRIST"
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/14/2008 7:36:38 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/14/2008 7:46 PM (GMT -6) | | "So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith (Note: What's that "organ of faith"? ), for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/14/2008 8:15 PM (GMT -6) | | | "Humanity is not just a purpose of creation; it can be understood only in the context of the promise of God for its salvation as constituting the locus point of the meeting of God and God's creation, as the mediating agency that is supposed to bring the whole universe through it's knowledge to the new creation. This implies that the purpose of the universe is not human beings considered in their natural condition, but unique creatures in whom the Logos of God is indwelling and who are chosen to transfigure the universe by bringing it to the ultimate union with God."
Nesteruk. Light from the East. " Humanity as Hypostasis of the Universe" pg. 230.
Whaddaya say?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/14/2008 10:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom,
If we are able to agree here...
we soooooooooooooooo got this.
You know that, right, my dearest Turtle?
Your brother,
The Scissortail.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/15/2008 2:18 AM (GMT -6) | | |
D: I will agree that there are created human “persons” (by sheer divine fiat, I suppose)…
Tom: I answered your mind transfer issue. There’s more to it than divine fiat. But in any case, tell me what you think is unique and irreducibly distinctive about the ‘person’ of the Son. Describe it for me. Is the Son a ‘person’ by the Father’s fiat? Is the sheer ‘fact’ that the Son is generated (unlike the Father) the end of what’s distinctive about the Son personally speaking? If yes, then what’s your problem with personhood existing by divine fiat in our case (if that’s how all persons other than the Father exist)? If not by divine fiat, then what’s unique about the Son’s ‘as person’? Therein lies your answer.
D: Will you agree that it is POSSIBLE that these human “persons” are to be “ONE” with the Triune God and each other by Spirit-filled, Spirit-lead, Spirit-empowered, Spirit-transformed life IN Christ-the-Logos (being one with Christ in “spirit”, “mind”, and “body/blood” ) such that Christ-the-Logos INDWELLS their human “hearts” via the power of the Holy Spirit...as these human “persons” live humble, obedient, self-giving lives to God in “poverty-of-spirit?”
Can we make a deal?
Tom: Truth-seekers don’t make ‘deals’…
…just kidding!
I think another thing that separates us is methodology. You seek an ‘incarnational model’ of personhood. I seek a ‘trinitarian model.’ To learn what it means for human beings to live a personal existence, you go to the incarnation and hypostatic union. I go to the Trinity. You see the hypostatic union as paradigmatic for all divine-human relationality. I see it as necessary for the incarnation only, a unique and unrepeatable event not prescriptive of what all human beings amount to in-relationship-to God. I believe Ware said this same thing about the hypostatic union, that it’s utterly unique in the sense that the same hypostatic ‘arrangement’ or ‘manner union’ isn’t the model for our oneness with God. That’s in the Ware quotes from weeks and months ago. Never mind revisiting it.
Having said that, I’ll agree that as ‘persons’ we shall be as one with the personal God as is possible for personally distinct beings. That’s it. Unpacking that ‘oneness’ analytically in detail is beyond us (you included). But as soon as someone starts describing our ‘personhood’ or ‘identity’ as being equivalent to the Son’s (by describing our ‘personhood’, for example, as “being Christ himself”) I’m going to get uncomfortable and start objecting, even if the guy making the claim has a beard and speaks great Greek. ‘Personhood’ is unique, unrepeatable, irreplaceable, and so incommunicable. That much I get from Zizy. Nature is communicable, person is not. If you grant that we’re ‘personally’ distinct from God, then that’s gonna affect how ‘one’ with God you think we can be. It looks like you want to grant that we’re ‘persons’ but change nothing else about your views on our ‘oneness’ with God. I don’t think that’s gonna work. If we’re non-divine persons-in-relation to God, then there are some versions of ‘oneness’ that aren’t possible (cf. Ware’s three kinds of ‘oneness’ with God).
I have no problem with “Spirit-filled,” “Spirit-led,” “Spirit-empowered,” and “Spirit-transformed” in Christ. All these are compatible with our being personally distinct from God.
One with Christ in body/blood? You know I’m a memorialist on the elements. So I can’t agree with you there. I’m probably some sort of idealist though, which means that on one level ALL (matter) is just the divine energies anyhow. But on emergent levels, no. I’m less sure about idealism.
I think “poverty of spirit” is necessary. I don’t think the popular passages you quote (Paul in Galatians, 2Pet 1.4, Ps. 86/Jn 10) actually assert the sort of developed philosophical theory of identity you like to see in them. I don’t think “poverty of Spirit” means denying one’s longing to be a distinct person, to mean something unique and unrepeatable. I think it means admitting that we’re poverty-stricken when it comes to achieving this; admitting that we cannot generate our own identity and meaning individualistically, standing apart from others. When it comes to being fulfilled persons and the ‘spiritual life’, Jesus wants us to admit that we are broke and pennyless. That's the cry of a poverty-stricken person: "HELP!" I don't have what it takes to succeed at the spiritual life. I can’t generate my own personal existence. But God can. And if we abandon individualistic self-dependence and claims to absolute autonomy and look to God as our creator, source, and savior, in THAT relationship we CAN become the full persons God intended us to be and satisfy the existential drive for identity and belonging. Poverty of spirit is admitting our absolute need of God, that’s all.
I'd really like to see you deal with AP's final chapter and Zizy's claims about the necessary link between personhood and freedom. Overall, I think my case for our being personally distinct from God (though utterly dependent upon God and, as all 'persons', having our identity ekstatically in-relation-to God) is quite strong. I don't think we're going to agree though; powerful existential motivations stand behind each of our views.
T
Post Edited (Tom) : 4/15/2008 2:23:14 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/15/2008 7:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I answered your mind transfer issue. There’s more to it than divine fiat. But in any case, tell me what you think is unique and irreducibly distinctive about the ‘person’ of the Son. Describe it for me. Is the Son a ‘person’ by the Father’s fiat? Is the sheer ‘fact’ that the Son is generated (unlike the Father) the end of what’s distinctive about the Son personally speaking? If yes, then what’s your problem with personhood existing by divine fiat in our case (if that’s how all persons other than the Father exist)? If not by divine fiat, then what’s unique about the Son’s ‘as person’? Therein lies your answer.
1) No, you didn't answer the mind transfer issue. Not to my satisfaction...but I let that go.
2) In my mind, what's unique about the Son is that there is only ONE "identity" in the Eternal Godhead that subsists from the self-reflection of the Father AS self-reflection...and that's the Son. The Son has a unique, yet mutually understood relational perspective in self-relational movement in the Triune God. Morover, as being the Incarnate Word, there was only ONE Son of God who was also the Son of Mary, the Theotokos.
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Tom:
I think another thing that separates us is methodology. You seek an ‘incarnational model’ of personhood. I seek a ‘trinitarian model.’ To learn what it means for human beings to live a personal existence, you go to the incarnation and hypostatic union. I go to the Trinity. You see the hypostatic union as paradigmatic for all divine-human relationality. I see it as necessary for the incarnation only, a unique and unrepeatable event not prescriptive of what all human beings amount to in-relationship-to God. I believe Ware said this same thing about the hypostatic union, that it’s utterly unique in the sense that the same hypostatic ‘arrangement’ or ‘manner union’ isn’t the model for our oneness with God. That’s in the Ware quotes from weeks and months ago. Never mind revisiting it.
1) One cannot be properly "incarnational" unless they are being robustly "trinitarian". We can't even begin to talk about "the Anointed One" WITHOUT talking about the Father and the Spirit. No way.
2) I'm gonna try to make this clear to you...again. I understand the distinction that Ware makes and why he makes it. There is a desire for a) the utter uniqueness of the Incarnation with respect to other human beings and b) a retaining of divine transcendence amid affirmation of divine immanance in the human being. Fine. When I say that the Incarnation is paradigmatic for us, what I'm saying (which I don't think others would have a problem with) is this: the dynamics seen in Jesus' HUMAN SPIRIT and it's relationship to the Holy Spirit (poverty-of-spirit, etc) that enabled the impossible to happen (God becoming human, a divine person experiencing non-divine reality personally, God "died", God was "born", etc) are of the SAME NATURE as the dynamics seen in ANY human spirit, allowing another impossiblity (humans becoming "God", a human person experiencing divine reality personally, "Abba, Father!" ) This is why, Tom, I've made such a big deal about Jesus having a human spirit, the human "organ of faith"...over and against your amazing ambiguity in that area. The human spirit is the CONNECTING POINT between the Eternal Son and all other humans in this regard. So, I am not saying that every human being is an incarnation of God. I've tried to make the distinction between Jesus and all other humans before. I'm saying that the PARADIGM of how Jesus' human spirit was interpenetrated by the Holy Spirit as "God's Anointed One" is the same for all human beings. God became human...so that humans could become god.
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Tom:
Having said that, I’ll agree that as ‘persons’ we shall be as one with the personal God as is possible for personally distinct beings. That’s it.
Good. So we just differ on what possiblities of "oneness" there are...given humans being "personally distinct beings".
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Tom:
Unpacking that ‘oneness’ analytically in detail is beyond us (you included). But as soon as someone starts describing our ‘personhood’ or ‘identity’ as being equivalent to the Son’s (by describing our ‘personhood’, for example, as “being Christ himself”) I’m going to get uncomfortable and start objecting, even if the guy making the claim has a beard and speaks great Greek. ‘Personhood’ is unique, unrepeatable, irreplaceable, and so incommunicable. That much I get from Zizy. Nature is communicable, person is not. If you grant that we’re ‘personally’ distinct from God, then that’s gonna affect how ‘one’ with God you think we can be. It looks like you want to grant that we’re ‘persons’ but change nothing else about your views on our ‘oneness’ with God. I don’t think that’s gonna work. If we’re non-divine persons-in-relation to God, then there are some versions of ‘oneness’ that aren’t possible (cf. Ware’s three kinds of ‘oneness’ with God).
1) I suppose you refer to John Behr, author of "The Mystery of Christ: Life in Death." Here's a quote from the book...p. 116
Christians are those who have been born again in Christ Jesus through the gospel; they are the ones who are having Christ formed in them. Finally, the apostle is not only the one who is travail with them, but is the paradigm of the state to which they are called:
I have been crucified with Christ: It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Gal 2:20)
Having died to the flesh, Christ not only now lives in the apostle, but Paul no longer lives--he identifies himself with Christ. Writing to the Galatians, he speaks of God having "revealed his Son in me" (1:16, not "to" me, as RSV), and praises them for having received him "as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus" (4:14)
Born again through the gospel in Christ Jesus, Christians are the body of Christ. This is no loose analogy or metaphor; the apostle Paul makes the identification without qualification: "You are the body of Christ and individually members of it," all, that is who "by the one Spirit were baptized into the one body" (1 Cor 12:27,13)
Yeah....I see you getting uncomfortable. Oh, well. I like what Behr's saying...so...another quote...Behr quoting Maximus the Confessor...
"Christ eternally wills to be born mystically, becoming incarnate through those who are saved and making the soul which begets him to be a virgin mother."
which lends itself to what Meister Eckhart (AND Kallistos Ware) believed about the Father "bearing" the Son in the human soul by the power of the Spirit!
yeah...
2) It's not that I don't want to "change nothing else" on my views. A main difference between us is a) I BELIEVE in the Real Presence of Christ via epiclesis (which ALL of the EO people we've been citing ASSUME...but not you!) and b) I believe in the "mystical birth" of the Son in the human spirit by the power of the Father's Spirit (which ALL of the EO people we've been citing are open to...but not you!) When you put all of this together, you get a "inconceivable oneness-in-differentiation" between God and humanity...as seen in a human being who's become "a unique creature in whom the Logos of God is indwelling." (Nesteruk)
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Tom:
One with Christ in body/blood? You know I’m a memorialist on the elements. So I can’t agree with you there. I’m probably some sort of idealist though, which means that on one level ALL (matter) is just the divine energies anyhow. But on emergent levels, no. I’m less sure about idealism.
THIS is exactly what I was talking about above. You don't believe in the Real Presence via epiclesis. So of course things are going to be different between us to that extent.
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Tom:
I think “poverty of spirit” is necessary. I don’t think the popular passages you quote (Paul in Galatians, 2Pet 1.4, Ps. 86/Jn 10) actually assert the sort of developed philosophical theory of identity you like to see in them. I don’t think “poverty of Spirit” means denying one’s longing to be a distinct person, to mean something unique and unrepeatable. I think it means admitting that we’re poverty-stricken when it comes to achieving this; admitting that we cannot generate our own identity and meaning individualistically, standing apart from others. When it comes to being fulfilled persons and the ‘spiritual life’, Jesus wants us to admit that we are broke and pennyless. That's the cry of a poverty-stricken person: "HELP!" I don't have what it takes to succeed at the spiritual life. I can’t generate my own personal existence. But God can. And if we abandon individualistic self-dependence and claims to absolute autonomy and look to God as our creator, source, and savior, in THAT relationship we CAN become the full persons God intended us to be and satisfy the existential drive for identity and belonging. Poverty of spirit is admitting our absolute need of God, that’s all.
1) I don't see "poverty-of-spirit" as refusing to be a distinct person. I see poverty-of-spirit as single-minded focus on God, such that they don't see themselves WITHOUT God in any kind of way.
2) Mary, the Theotokos, shows us that "poverty-of-spirit" before God has INCARNATIONAL POWER to receive and bring forth God's word in human existence. In living utterly dependent on God, we open ourselves up to be "temples of the Holy Spirit"...which we were created to be.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/15/2008 7:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Having said that, I’ll agree that as ‘persons’ we shall be as one with the personal God as is possible for personally distinct beings. That’s it.
Well, let "me" speak for "myself."
The "created 'I'" in this human hypostatic unity writing this right now desires to be as one with God as God wants "me" to be. I want to be in "complete unity" with Christ and His body through His indwelling presence in my spirit, mind, and body. I believe in being one with the Lord in spirit. I believe that, by faith and grace, Christ's body (including "me") has the "mind of Christ". I also believe that, epicletically, I can participate in the Real Presence of Christ's Body and Blood, actually having my "members" be Christ's "members."
I believe there is MORE than enough biblical evidence to sustain the belief in such an intimate relationship where we ARE "Christ"...and we are ARE NOT "Christ...at the same time.
So...you do what you do, baby. You're your own "person", right?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/15/2008 7:50 AM (GMT -6) | | I got it.
Jesus of Nazareth was the ONLY HUMAN BEING to have God the Logos indwelling him naturally via the Incarnation.
ALL other human beings have God the Logos indwelling them by grace through faith.
So what Christ Jesus is BY NATURE...we become BY GRACE.
This will be sufficient for you, right, Tom?
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/15/2008 7:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Please excuse the profanity in this song...(warning! Listen at your own risk.)
But every time I hear this song, I think about Tom.
The "Rock" of Personal Distinction...heh
"I'm Me"
Lil Wayne
www.youtube.com/watch?v=33gCZjv944s
"I'm Me.
I'm Me.
I'm Me.
Baby, I'm Me.
So who you?
You're not Me
You're not Me."
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/15/2008 8:01 AM (GMT -6) | | God is ONE FLESH with His Bride!
Talk about kenosis.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/15/2008 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/15/2008 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | |
I ask a sensual man, “Who are you?” and he replies, “I am I,” and he thinks of his body.
I ask a thinking man, “Who are you?” and he replies, “I see two sides in myself and I make my way between them, associating first with one and then the other,” and he is thinking of his instinctive and conscious soul.
I ask a spiritual man, “Who are you?” and he replies, “There is someone in the depths of my soul. I stretch out my hand to grasp him but see that to do that I would need arms longer than the universe. Ask him (God) who I am.”
St. Nicholai of Zicha (Velimirovich)
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/15/2008 8:21 AM (GMT -6) | | "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God" (Matt. 5:8). Made in God's image, man is a mirror of the divine. He knows God by knowing himself; entering within himself, he sees God reflected in the purity of his own heart. The doctrine of man's creation according to the image means that within each person--within his or her truest and innermost self, often termed the "deep heart" or "ground of the soul"--there is a point of direct meeting and union with the Uncreated. "The Kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:21).
The quest for the inward kingdom is one of the master themes found throughout the writings of the Fathers. "The greatest of all lessons", says St. Clement of Alexandria, "is to know oneself; for if someone know himself, he will know God; and if he knows God, he will become like God." St. Basil the Great writes: "When the intellect is no longer dissipated among external things or dispersed across the world through the senses, it returns to itself; and by means of itself it ascends to the thought of God." "He who know himself knows everything," says St. Issac the Syrian; elsewhere he writes:
Be at peace with your own soul; then heaven and earth will be at peace with you. Enter eagerly into the treasure house that is within you, and so you will see the things that are in heaven; for there is but one single entry to them both. The ladder that leads to the kingdom is hidden within your soul. Flee from sin, dive into yourself, and in your soul you will discover the stairs by which to ascend.
And to these passages we may add the testimony of a Western witness in our own day, Thomas Merton:
At the center of our being is a point of nothingness which is untouched by sin and by illusion, a point of pure truth, a point or spark which belongs entirely to God, which is never at our disposal, from which God disposes of our lives, which is inaccessible to the fantasies of our own mind or the brutalities of our own will. This little point of nothingness and of absolute poverty is the pure glory of God in us. It its so to speak his name written on us, as our poverty, as our indigence, and our dependence, as our sonship. It is like a pure diamond , blazing with the invisible light of heaven. It is in everybody, and if we could see it we would see these billions or points of light coming together in the face and blaze of a sun that would make all the darkness and cruelty of life vanish completely…The gate of heaven is everywhere.
Flee from sin. St. Issac insists; and these three words should be particularly noted. If we are to see God's face reflected within us, the mirror needs to be cleaned. Without repentance there can be no self-knowledge and no discovery of the inward kingdom. When I am told "Return into yourself: know yourself", it is necessary to inquire: Which "self" am I to discover? What is my true self? (Kallisto's emphasis on the "is" there) Psychoanalysis discloses to us one type of "self"; all too often, however, it guides us, not to the "ladder that leads to the kingdom,", but to the staircase that goes down to a dank and snake-infested cellar. "Know yourself" means "know yourself as God-sourced, God-rooted; know yourself in God". From the viewpoint of the Orthodox spiritual tradition it should be emphasized that we shall not discover this, our true self "according to the image", except through a death to our false and fallen self. "He who loses his life for my sake shall find it." (Matt. 16:25): only the one who sees his false self for what it is and rejects it, will be able to discern his true self, the self that God sees. Underlining this distinction between the false self and the true, St. Varsanuphius enjoins: "Forget yourself and know knowself."
Kallistos Ware. Orthodox Way. "The Inner Kingdom" pp.55-56
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/15/2008 8:31 AM (GMT -6) | | "Abba, Father!"
--"I, not I, but Christ-the-Logos", the defining identity/self-understanding of a "new being IN CHRIST" | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/15/2008 11:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
If you can hold on to EVERYTHING else you've been saying and still affirm our personal distinction from God in terms of freedom, great.
"The free man is, if he is really free, freedom itself, yet only insofar as he is free."
Meister Eckhart
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.”
Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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