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|  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/20/2008 7:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | Bruce: "The personal presence of Christ brings about the transformation of the elements"
I think the same can be said of US. The personal presence of Christ brings about our being his body. The personal presence of Christ makes eating and drinking to be the partaking of his body and blood. The elements remain individually bread and wine, and we remain individual persons.
Some thoughts...
1 Corinthians 6:12-20 "I have the right to do anything," you say—but not everything is beneficial. "I have the right to do anything"—but I will not be mastered by anything. You say, "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both." The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins people commit are outside their bodies, but those who sin sexually sin against their own bodies. Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.
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Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is true worship.
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From 1 Corinthians 6, it seems that the individual believer's body is a "temple of the Holy Spirit"...such that, speaking from Paul, our bodies are "members of Christ himself" in that the body...for the Lord, and the Lord for the body." One way that I take this is the following: Looking at Scripture, the manifest personal presence of the Uncreated God in a place made that created place HOLY and full of GLORY. (Thinking about the Burning Bush, the Ark of the Covenant, etc.) So, if the human being is totally permeated and suffused with the personal presence of Christ-the-Logos via the Holy Spirit (being "one with the Lord in spirit" ) , it seems like there would be the same ramifications for the human body in whom Christ is dwelling via the Spirit. (THINK RELICS! It's the "job of the Church to make relics", right, Bruce?)
My thought is that being a "temple of the Holy Spirit" where our very body PARTS are seen as "members of Christ himself" is not solely constituted by a certain disposition of sociality in the community of the Faithful, though it does include that. The "real presence of Christ", in my mind, deals with the ACTUAL PERSONAL PRESENCE of Christ-the-Logos in a human being's body (or in groups of human beings' bodies) by epicletic faith. As we are "living sacrifices" to God, and we totally dedicate every part of our bodies (especially our BRAINS) to God's loving service through the Holy Spirit, we say in our "hearts", maybe even wordlessly...
Holy Spirit of Christ, come! Take this "reasonable and bloodless worship" of my human body (especially this human brain ) as I offer it to you. Make THIS body to be YOUR body..and make THIS blood to be YOUR blood by the Holy Spirit's power.
...every second, minute, hour, day, week, month, and year. In faith by God's grace, it is possible for the PERSONAL PRESENCE OF CHRIST-THE-LOGOS to be mediated to the believer's human body at all times by the differentiated unity between the created human spirit and the Uncreated Holy Spirit. And this personal presence of Christ is what MAKES US Christ's Body, a royal priesthood, "living stones, built into a spiritual house"...temples of the Holy Spirit, individually and collectively.
It's seems solidly biblical to me to say all this.
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Orthodox Church of America on "Epiklesis"
After the elevation of the eucharistic gifts to the Father, the celebrant of the Divine Liturgy prays for the Holy Spirit to come upon them, and upon all of the people, and to change (or as the Liturgy of St. Basil says, to show) the bread and wine offered in remembrance of Christ to be the very Body and Blood of the Lord.
The prayer for the coming of the Holy Spirit is considered by the Orthodox to be an essential part of the Divine Liturgy. It is called the epiklesis, which means literally the calling upon or the invocation.
The Orthodox Church believes, as it prays, that the Holy Spirit is always "everywhere and fills all things." The invocation of the Holy Spirit at the Divine Liturgy is the solemn affirmation that everything in life which is positive and good is accomplished by the Spirit of God. Creation, salvation, eternal glorification; the entire work of God in making and saving the world is accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who dwelt in Jesus making him the Christ. He is the one by whom Christ was incarnate of the Virgin Mary. He is the one who led Christ to the cross as the innocent Victim, the one who raised him from the dead as the triumphant Victor.
He is the one who guarantees the indwelling of God with men in the Holy Communion of the Church and in the life of the Kingdom to come. "Again we offer unto Thee this reasonable and bloodless worship, and we ask Thee, and pray Thee, and supplicate Thee: Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here offered. And make this bread the precious Body of Thy Christ.
And that which is in this cup, the precious Blood of Thy Christ. Making the change by the Holy Spirit.
That these gifts may be to those who partake for the purification of soul, for remission of sins, for the communion of the Holy Spirit, for the fulfillment of the Kingdom of Heaven; for boldness towards Thee, and not for judgment or condemnation."
In the Orthodox Churches of the Slavic tradition, the Prayer of the Third Hour is added to the epiklesis. It is a prayer asking the Lord to send the Holy Spirit to the Church right now as he did "at the third hour" to his holy apostles and disciples on Pentecost. This prayer was added to emphasize the necessity of the Holy Spirit in the sacramental action of the Divine Liturgy, and to affirm that nothing at all may be done in Christ without the specific intervention of the Spirit of God.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/20/2008 8:05:13 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/20/2008 8:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | Repost from 10/23/2007 on another thread.
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Ok.
Giving an update...interesting stuff...
I had a very, very pleasant phone conversation with Father Jonathon Proctor from Holy Trinity Orthodox Church nearby. He seemed to be a very encouaging, gracious guy who really knew his stuff (obviously). I hope to meet him in person sometime soon. Anyway...long story short...I asked him my question concerning epiklesis. Basically, I just asked him:
Given what we know about theosis, the Theotokos, and epiklesis, and all that, isn't it possible that the "living sacrifices" (meaning the believers themselves) can be mystically transformed into Christ's Real Presence by the power of the Spirit...just like the bread and the wine?
I told him that I wasn't merely trying to say that the bread and the wine were some form of "middle man". Not at all. What I was trying to address was the incarnational power of the epicletic encounter with God (like what happened with the Theotokos!). It just seemed to me that if we were indeed to be "living sacrifices" and "gifts" to be giving sacrificially to God everyday...that we could have the Spirit of Christ "change" our members into His. Epicletic living.
What he said was pretty interesting.
He said that what I proposed was "directly in line" with the saints, the prophets, the Fathers, and the Tradition...but for pastoral reasons, that may not be the most effective thing to talk about. As I understand him, he said that there would be some dissonance between the reality of whole thing and the continuing struggle of the Christian life that may make things to prone to misunderstanding or abuse. But, yes, epicletic living is a potential Christian reality.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
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 |  One Love Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 13888 | Posted 4/20/2008 8:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | Oh, and I found this while I was digging in the crates, as it were. A post from Bruce of Father Stephen that deals directly with Zizy and KENOSIS...
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. . .
Zizioulas, following the teaching of St. Basil in particular, notes that in Orthodox Trinitarian teaching, it is common to begin by speaking of the three Persons of the Godhead and then moving to the One Essence, rather than by speaking of the One Essence and then proceeding to the three Persons. Without repeating the entirety of his magisterial work, he presses this work of St. Basil and concludes that God exists as an eternal act of communion of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. St. Basil had said that “person is prior to being” (not speaking temporally, but theologically). Thus it is that the very names of the Trinity reveal the truth of God. The Father is not a metaphor, but a name. He is Father and this implies “a begotten.” Christ as Son, again implies begotten. The Spirit (which means breath or wind) also implies another, a source. Thus there is no speaking of the Triune God that does not include this “relational” aspect.
Zizioulas also applies this understanding of existence to human beings. Thus our biological existence, which is destined to return to the dust, is replaced, in Holy Baptistm, by what he calls “the ecclesial hypostasis” (I just love the term though it won’t preach). I existence given to us in Baptism is no longer defined by our biology, our individuality, but by our relationship to Christ (and thus to His Church).
He (Zizy) also removes the Church from crude institutional images and instead says its true nature is revealed and constituted in the Eucharist, in which not only the Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood, but in which also are revealed to be Christ’s Body. And just as the Body and Blood are “eschatological” in character (manifestations in time of the very End of things), so too our true existence is revealed as eschatological.
Zizioulas gets accused of having established a “pneumatological” understanding of the Church (i.e. an understanding that depends on the operation of the Spirit [pneuma] rather than on Christ - though I think such criticisms are unfair.
I will take us to a slightly different approach. The Body and Blood made manifest to us on the holy altar, which are there certainly eschatologically, and also as a gift of the Spirit [why else would be pray for the Holy Spirit to “change” the Bread and Wine] - but what is made manifest to us is nothing other than the Crucified Christ. It is, as the Fathers said, “a bloodless sacrifice,” but the sacrifice made present on the altar is indeed the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, as well as the “Lamb slain from the foundations of the earth.” The Church is revealed not only as Christ’s Body, but revealed as well as Christ Crucified, with whom we were united in Baptism (Baptized into his death and raised in the likeness of His resurrection). Thus the Eucharistic Community of which Zizioulas speaks cannot be merely “pneumatological” because what the Spirit reveals and makes manifest is profoundly Christological and even Cruciform.
Indeed, the Trinitarian aspects of Zizioulas’ teaching, can best be understood by going to Christ on the Cross. Though Zizioulas approaches these matters in a quasi-philosophical model (starting with the Cappadocian Fathers and the great Trinitarian debate) it is nonetheless true that it is Christ on the Cross who most perfectly reveals the character of God, and even the Trinity to us.
It is the self-emptying of Christ on the Cross, described best in Philippians 2 that goes to the heart of my point:
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (5-11).
The self-emptying of Christ on the Cross is not to be confined to that one occasion. The entirety of Christ’s ministry is a self-emptying, from the Annunciation forward. The icons and feasts of the Church make it clear that the whole of Christ’s love for us is manifest in a life that has the very “shape” of Pascha. Indeed to say the “Lamb was slain before the foundation of the earth,” is to acknowledge that this revelation contained in Pascha transcends the single event of Pascha and is revelatory of Who Christ is.
Nor can we simply point to the self-emptying of Christ and say that it is a “Christological” revelation. For the Father gave His only-begotten Son, and the Spirit speaks nothing of Himself but only of the Son. There is a mutual self-emptying in the Trinity as revealed to us in Scripture. Thus the God of whom St. John says, “God is love,” is true of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Communion is nothing other than the common life of God. And it is into this Communion that we are placed in the Holy Eucharist (’whosoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him” (John 6:56).
But it is also possible, having said all this, to make the mistake of “over-emphasizing” the Divine Liturgy itself, as though other actions of the Church were not “Eucharistic” themselves (this is the kind of mistake that has been common in the “liturgical movement”). The Eucharist not only reveals the Church in its proper self-emptying character of communion, but also reveals the character of every action we take in the Church. How is the sacrament of Confession not “self-emptying.” How is it not an act of communion with the Triune God? How is Baptism not a “self-emptying” (we are “put to death” in that sacrament)? How is Marriage not an act of mutual self-emptying? Why do we crown them with the crowns of martyrs? I could go on and on.
The simple question placed at Baptism: “Do you unite yourself to Christ?” Is itself an invitation to live the self-emptying Life of God. Everything we do in Church and as Christians is properly done when it is an act of self-emptying, an act of communion. There can be no communion of any sort without kenosis (emptying).
Thus although some have found fault with Zizioulas as too pneumatological (Spirit-centered) in his discussion of the Church, or too philosophical (having started with the Cappadocians rather than the Cross), I find him not guilty - if he is understood in the manner I have set forth here. Nothing in Chrisianity makes any sense apart from the Cross, for it is the Cross that shows forth the great mystery of Pascha which is indeed God’s revelation of Himself to the World. Pascha not only reveals God, but also answers the question, “What kind of God is He?” He is a good God who loves mankind.
Glory to God for all things!
This entry was posted on Monday, October 15th, 2007 at 11:26 am and is filed under Faith, Fathers, Orthodox Christianity, Orthodox Doctrine, The Church, The Sacraments, Union with Christ, religion. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Whoever knows and recognizes how near God’s Kingdom is to him may say with Jacob, “God is in this place, and I knew it not.” Meister Eckhart, "The Nearness of the Kingdom"
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the Kingdom of God is within you.
Post Edited ("I am-in-I Am") : 4/20/2008 8:30:43 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 4/20/2008 8:14 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
Yes.
Two things must be taken together:
Tom's posts, and Corey's, were most forewardly represented by the notion of history (I'll come back to that.), but then were spirit-oriented (pneumatological). But Dwayne's post from Zizzy reminds us " Thus the Eucharistic Community of which Zizioulas speaks cannot be merely "pneumatological" because what the Spirit reveals and makes manifest is profoundly Christological and even Cruciform." Again, yes.
Zizzy coined a hyphenated phrase that sadly is not coming quickly to me right now--I might resort to the inelloquent term "tweak." :) Oh, the word is "conditioned." The Church theologically needs to be understood as "pneumatologically-conditioned-Christology." Conditioned is an interesting concept. PIckles are conditioned by the liquid they are in, yet are not one-hundred percent formed by that liquid--right? As an understanding, "pneumatologically-conditioned-Christology" means that one begins with the christology and then "conditions" it via pneumatology so as to accomplish something that would not be arrived at otherwise.
Returning to Tom and Corey, and history, let's not at all underestimate the notion of history, or of its object The Cross! Yet, let's "see" the Cross not only on that Friday but also--with Zizzy--as an "eschatological" fact. I hope we can all follow this. D's Zizzy posts here are well worth the careful attention!
_____(GOOD JOB, D.)
The Cross is historical; and THAT fact of the Cross is the centrl axis of all history, even before--if it is possible--before history was even thought of. Scripture strains to say so, words failing.
But notice Zizzy's and Stephen's saying:
Indeed, the Trinitarian aspects of Zizioulas’ teaching, can best be understood by going to Christ on the Cross. Though Zizioulas approaches these matters in a quasi-philosophical model (starting with the Cappadocian Fathers and the great Trinitarian debate) it is nonetheless true that it is Christ on the Cross who most perfectly reveals the character of God, and even the Trinity to us.
Eschatological attention finds two targets: the gifts and us.
And just as the Body and Blood are “eschatological” in character (manifestations in time of the very End of things), so too our true existence is revealed as eschatological.
For this discussion we should probably agree to look at the second (us) part first, promising to come back to the first (the gifts) part quicky afterwards. We are asked to see both as eschatological, and not 'merely' historical.
The illustration presented as to the eschatological fact as per us is baptism; we are reminded that we have actually died with Christ, and share in his resurrection. That's us. And it is not 'merely' historical. It's reality is not 'merely' historical. It's realit is also eschatological. So now we fulfill our promise to look at the eschatological fact of the eucharist; the phrase above is "manifestations in time of the very End of things." The EO liturgy "remembers" not only "the cross and the tomb" but also something that has not happened yet, historically! Eschatologically it is present: "the second, glorious coming."
Remembering, therefore, this command of the Savior, and all that came to pass for our sake, the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the enthronement at the right hand of the Father, and the second, glorious coming,
One can only remember what has been accomplished. Christ the First Fruits has accomplished all. Fact. Truth. Remember it. And live it.
The Body and Blood made manifest to us on the holy altar, which are there certainly eschatologically...
And...
...what is made manifest to us is nothing other than the Crucified Christ. It is, as the Fathers said, “a bloodless sacrifice,” but the sacrifice made present on the altar is indeed the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, as well as the “Lamb slain from the foundations of the earth.” The Church is revealed not only as Christ’s Body, but revealed as well as Christ Crucified, with whom we were united in Baptism (Baptized into his death and raised in the likeness of His resurrection). Thus the Eucharistic Community of which Zizioulas speaks cannot be merely “pneumatological” because what the Spirit reveals and makes manifest is profoundly Christological and even Cruciform.
Notice (I think I do) that the second part of this last paragraph talks about a belonging by death-and-resurrection that is REQUIRED for the bread and wine to be meant for us.
I think that it is helpful to think with one thought, the unity of those two parts of the last quoted paragraph, that we must identify with Christ's death to identify with his resurrection. Eating and drinking are not acts that we can worthily do. We can only approach God through our ONE mediator, who is Christ. Not even through the Spirit primarily. Christ, with the condition of the Holy Spirit's help. Communion is the "medicine of immortaility" in that it is an eschatological meal. Though not always for a first time -- like my story of would-be martyrs being catechized, baptized and communed and chrismated (on page 3) -- every time our "remembering" is an eschatoligical participation --a real presence of the whole of the economy: "the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the enthronement at the right hand of the Father, and the second, glorious coming,"
And, following down on D.'s last Zizzy post, we see "self-emptying...
But I should let us ALL read Zizzy slowly. There may be more to not only glean from but to comment on too.
(o)Post Edited (plato's_playdough) : 4/20/2008 9:02:53 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 4/20/2008 8:21 PM (GMT -6) |   | |
MORE (from D.'s last post):
The self-emptying of Christ on the Cross is not to be confined to that one occasion. The entirety of Christ’s ministry is a self-emptying, from the Annunciation forward. The icons and feasts of the Church make it clear that the whole of Christ’s love for us is manifest in a life that has the very “shape” of Pascha. Indeed to say the “Lamb was slain before the foundation of the earth,” is to acknowledge that this revelation contained in Pascha transcends the single event of Pascha and is revelatory of Who Christ is.
Nor can we simply point to the self-emptying of Christ and say that it is a “Christological” revelation. For the Father gave His only-begotten Son, and the Spirit speaks nothing of Himself but only of the Son. There is a mutual self-emptying in the Trinity as revealed to us in Scripture. Thus the God of whom St. John says, “God is love,” is true of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Communion is nothing other than the common life of God. And it is into this Communion that we are placed in the Holy Eucharist (’whosoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him” (John 6:56).
(o)Post Edited (plato's_playdough) : 4/20/2008 9:06:26 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
  |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 4/20/2008 9:13 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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