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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 4/17/2008 3:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I wrote a blog post about the meaning of ownership last night, but my blog broke so I thought I'd see what happened here, if anyone had any ideas. I'm basically at a loss between two theories of ownership, the kind I describe below which I don't really understand and a slightly more pragmatic one which limits it more to "the right to enjoy or to do something with". The problem with this is that I think I see God's ownership of the world as a lot more significant than merely his right to enjoy it or do stuff with it, and likewise when I say I give myself to someone in love, I seem to have a lot more in view than that. On the other hand, more ontological versions just don't seem to make much sense to me, much as I would like them to. Here's the blog post.

Somebody said...

I can't quite seem to get the idea of ownership sorted in my mind, so I thought I'd blog about it again and see if it helps. The paper I keep coming back to is <a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=189830">this one</a>, although I have to admit I don't get on with everything it says, I like the way in which it tries to be ontologically real about the thing.

So, what's the problem? The problem is that I want to see ownership as a real relation between people and objects/people and things. I think this is the natural way to think of the world - if I say that I give myself to you, I don't merely mean that I'm giving you a bundle of abilities and rights relating to me, I seem to be implying a much deeper relation between the two of us. Most theories and documents I look at put ownership as a bundle of rights, generally the right to use and the right to dispose of in whatever way. These seem to me to be consequences rather than the actual relationship itself, however.

Ownership is tied very closely to possession - it is, if you like, a kind of permanent and unqualified, form of possession. What is possession, though? and how does ownership extend beyond it?

If I hold something in my hand I could be said to be in possession of it - this seems a somewhat brute physical relation, but I believe it must have deeper and more profound meaning and consequences than that. The metaphor that is used in the article linked about is the idea of an extension of the self. Whilst I don't like the idea of property as an extension of the self, I am more than happy to accept the idea of property as an extension <em>to</em> the self. By holding something in your hand, you are holding it to yourself, and asserting your primacy over it such that it is in essence subordinated to your being and becomes a kind of extension to it. It is ordered around you, it is added to you. If we use the metaphor of slavery, there is a kind of bondage to you that goes on that could take all sorts of forms.

This relationship obviously extends in other ways beyond what the physical action of holding represents - it seems that we can socially construct a lot more relationships than we are able to maintain individually. It is also true that we can claim something as our own without ever touching it - it seems in this case we change the objects identity by a kind of 'intentional underwriting' of its existence. By saying 'you are mine' the words I utter seem to perform a similar function to that of holding the object. It an I form a kind of bond, albeit a fairly provisional one.

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Sahid
Megistered Rember




Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
 
   Posted 4/17/2008 3:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The brute force possession seems to be an actual description of reality. Ownership seems to be an abstraction, a description of how we mentally categorize. As such, I'd not be content to get to the bottom of what "true ownership" is. As an abstraction there must be something more basic, more real that it describes. Something like possession which is more than a mental construct.

God has power over creation. This, I contend, is not an abstraction. He possesses the world, so to speak. It is "in his hand" and he can do with it what he will. God also exercises restraint. He does not "put his finger" into every detail and causally determine everything; he leaves creation some freedom. This lends itself to the abstraction of "stewardship" more than "ownership" to my mind.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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Corey
Five with a Four-wing




Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
 
   Posted 4/17/2008 7:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ex-ZACH-ly!

Our categories are just: OUR categories. We use language as a map, a shorthand description, to model our understanding of reality. We talk of ownership; that doesn't necessarily correspond to how God thinks about his relationship to us. As soon as we force a label, it brings in baggage or excludes important notions.

I guess I'm increasingly headed in a postmodern direction these days.


Before God, in grace, we will with all our power to be that which He shows us we are.

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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 4/18/2008 3:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sure thing with the PoMo, Corey, it seems to be the way forward.

Hmmm.
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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 4/18/2008 6:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK, so let's not force the label, but let's explore it...

If we talk about God's ownership of creation, what is it that we're trying to say?
The thing I most want to avoid here is to speak of it merely in terms of potential things that God is permitted to do with creation - so long as it's merely potential that doesn't seem to really get anywhere much.

If we likewise talk about our stewardship, what is that?

If we talk about my ownership of a book what is it that we mean?

If I say that I belong to God, what do I meant there? How does that differ from what happens when I give myself, say, to a friend or lover?
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Similitude
Registered Member


Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
 
   Posted 4/18/2008 6:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

No time to respond, now, but good to see you again, Mark. Been too long! cheers

Jeff


 

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Sahid
Megistered Rember




Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
 
   Posted 4/18/2008 7:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My guess is ownership = the legitimate permission to potentially do whatever with the owned. Like you said, it doesn't really get us anywhere. But that's what we mean by the word isn't it?

Ownership takes on meaning in an interpersonal environment. If all that exists is one person and a non-personal creation, then it is trivial to speak of ownership. No permission can be given. I am one of those who wants to boil ethics down to something subjective and interpersonal instead of something ultimately arbitrary and objective. So any ethical facet of meaning in "ownership" is lost to me if we take away the interpersonal environment. "Ownership" would then be a measure of raw power - how much of this creation can the person manage to control?

Likewise, stewardship takes on meaning in an interpersonal environment. A steward is one party of two. Legitimate stewardship requires prior legitimate ownership. Legitimate (or ethical) ownership requires permission. And this is where I want to start making the distinction between unilateral and bilateral covenants of rule.

When I own a book, I can do with it what I will. Others can't - unless they gain my permission i.e. transfer ownership (totally or provisionally).

Giving oneself/belonging to another person is only slightly more complicated from this point of view. The owner can legitimately/ethically do what he wants with the owned. The only way this changes is when the owner gives permission/ownership is provisionally or totally relinquished. The difference between a person and a book is that the owned is also a potential owner to whom ownership may be transfered.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Post Edited (Sahid) : 4/18/2008 7:56:20 AM (GMT-5)

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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 263
 
   Posted 4/24/2008 4:24 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
[quote]My guess is ownership = the legitimate permission to potentially do whatever with the owned. Like you said, it doesn't really get us anywhere. But that's what we mean by the word isn't it? Perhaps its a relationship of submission then, whatever that means. The problem seems to me that it's hard to really grasp much outside of spatial analogies. If I try to think of an ordering of the world I immediately start thinking about shapes.

I think ownership might still be meaningful in a one person world - if that person has some kind of access to the world then is that ownership? I think it might be.
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