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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/31/2004 7:30 AM (GMT -6) |   |
From Bishop Kallistos Ware's "The Orthodox Way", chapter 4--God as Man
(pp78-80)
quote:
A second glimpse is given us at the Crucifixion, when Christ cries our with a loud voice. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46). Once again, full weight should be given to these words. Here is the extreme point of Christ's desolation, when he feels abandoned not only by men but by God. We cannot begin to explain how it is possible for one who is himself the living God to lose awareness of the divine presence. But this at least is evident. In Christ's Passion there is no play-acting, nothing is done for outward show. Each word from the Cross means what it says. And it the cry "My God, my God..." is to signify anything at all, it must mean that at this moment Jesus is truly experiencing the spiritual death of separation from God. Not only does he shed his blood for us, but for our sakes he accepts even the loss of God.
"He descended into hell" (Apostles Creed). Does this mean merely that Christ went to preach to the departed spirits during the interval between Great Friday evening and Easter morning (see 1 Pet. 3:19)? Surely it has also a deeper sense. Hell is a point not in space but in the soul. It is the place where God is not. (And yet God is everywhere!) If Christ truly "descended into hell", that means he descended into the depths of the absence of God. Totally, unreservedly, he identifies himself with all man's anguish and alienation. He assumed it unto himself, and by assuming it he healed it. There was no other way he could heal it, except by making it his own.
Such is the message of the Cross to each one of us. However far I have to travel through the valley of the shadow of death, I am never alone I have a companion. And this companion is not only a true man as I am, but also true God from true God. At the moment of Christ's deepest humiliation on the Cross, he is as much the eternal and living God as he is at his Transfiguration in glory upon Mount Tabor. Looking upon Christ crucified, I see not only a suffering man but suffering God.
(For more, check out the whole chapter in this book across many posts in the thread "" ) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/31/2004 7:34 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/31/2004 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT, BUT IT LOOKS PRETTY GOOD:
The suffering God
By J. Michael Feazell
© Worldwide Church of God
http://www.wcg.org/lit/spiritual/trials/suffrgod.htm
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/31/2004 8:52 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/31/2004 8:55 AM (GMT -6) | | GOD'S PROMISES:
http://www.intouch.org/myintouch/exploring/promises/suffering_94232.html
"In the day of prosperity be happy, but in the day of adversity consider -- God has made the one as well as the other so that man will not discover anything that will be after him."
Ecclesiastes 7:14
"And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance."
Romans 5:3
"If children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."
Romans 8:17
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."
Philippians 1:29
"Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel, according to the power of God."
2 Timothy 1:8
"For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps."
1 Peter 2:21
"But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not fear their intimidation, and do not be troubled, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.
"For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong."
1 Peter 3:14-17
"But if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name."
1 Peter 4:16
"After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen, and establish you."
1 Peter 5:10
"For in the day of trouble He will conceal me in His tabernacle; in the secret place of His tent He will hide me; He will lift me up on a rock."
Psalms 27:5
"That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death."
Philippians 3:10
"GOD is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble."
Psalms 46:1
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Bernie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 2/2/2004 7:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey, PotOnWheel,
Your posts aren't going to garner much attention, brother; today's superficial Christianity doesn't want to hear the truth about the need to suffer, we just want to have our ears tickled with how good we all are.
The true message of sanctification--which you seem to allude to in this thread--is almost lost in the church today. In this fast food religious society, we want a 'blab-it-n-grab-it' holiness, where we raise our hands and shout "Hail, CHEEZUS!" and are automatically entered into His computer in the 'righteous dude (or dudette)" category.
The Esoteric Fundamentalism Website (which I hope to have up and running in the coming week or two)will explain in some detail WHY God's wrath is actually His love, WHY birth is found in the death of suffering, WHY truth is simultaneously both humanity's most feared enemy yet we are drawn to it like a moth to light, WHY judgment is necessary (to periodically expunge in history the elements of what Aquinas saw as the pathology/cancer of evil necessary to avert humannity's inexorable fall to chaos and destruction)...and a bunch of other stuff.
God bless you in your walk and work.
The Esoteric Fundamentalist | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 2/10/2004 4:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Selah
Catechumen
USA
291 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2004 : 09:12:17 AM
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Looking through a temporal lens I struggle to reconcile the God of Love with the problem of evil. However, if God is love (1 John 4) and love is defined in 1 Cor 13:4-8 (4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails) Then, I can step back and see that perhaps we are being "loved" by God. Afterall, He is bearing/enduring all (including evil) things. I guess temporally He would appear to have His hands "tied" by the world He chose to create--the world where warfare exists for a time.
And, it could be true that He is patient with temporal stuff. He is working through the kindness of His agents and is not jealous of any ground temporal evil agents may (seemingly) gain. He is not bragging or arrogant that He wins through our lives (and much more through death) in time. Neither is He provoked to fix things quickly. He doesn't take into account wrongs suffered, rejoices in the Truth that we are His and He is ours, and that truly He/Love never fails...
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Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev. 22:1
MephEternal
Zosima
USA
712 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2004 : 09:16:29 AM
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Excellent perspective, Selah!
Think about how much endurance, bearing, and kindness it would take for a PERFECTLY HOLY God to deal with a SIN-PERMEATED existence!
Oh, my YES, we are loved!
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"How satisfying it is to leave a mark on a blank surface. To make a map of my movement--no matter how temporary."
--Craig Thompson from the graphic novel "Blankets"
Selah
Catechumen
USA
291 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2004 : 11:15:39 AM
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Thanks Mephi, I appreciate your time this morning. Your responses are extremely helpful. Thanks also to the board for being ok with me thinking out loud conversationally. I'm writing two other papers while thinkning about this stuff. It's cool that I can take breaks and share my thoughts without being overly concerned with linguistics/grammar/punctuation.
Blessings!
love
selah
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Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev. 22:1
TGB
SUPERSTAR
Lebanon
2236 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2004 : 3:38:23 PM
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Exellent thought Selah. I'm thinking too that love "does not seek its own" (demand its own way). God doesn't demand his own way. Hmm. How might THAT affect our understanding of God's actions in the world?
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