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borg
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324
| Posted 3/9/2004 6:08 PM (GMT -6) |   | I'm sure you are all aware of the argument brought against Boydians/ Open Theists that according to your theology we should not be praying to God for the unsaved. The argument goes as such. If man has free will, and God is working equally hard on all hearts, then why pray for unbelievers? Ultimatley God is already doing as much as He can in order to save them, and has left the choice with the non-believer. therefore praying that God will save them, is not coherent or "systematic" with the OVists theology. Would you embrace this conclusion? And does it seem Biblical?
Blessings,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 3/9/2004 6:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
therefore praying that God will save them, is not coherent or "systematic" with the OVists theology
We are to pray for our enemies. We are to pray for our brothers and sisters. When we pray that God will save a nonbeliever we are asking God to move in any way possible to bring truth and revelation into their path. This prayer will NOT guarantee them choosing God but when we pray we are doing battle in the heavenlies. Through the victory we obtain in Christ doorways are being opened by which the nonbeliever may choose to walk through. By doing our battle in prayer we are taking down strongholds by the power of the Holy Spirit in order that blind eyes might see. We are praying that deaf ears will hear the truth. No matter the theology we ARE all commanded to pray. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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| Posted 3/9/2004 6:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
I'm sure you are all aware of the argument brought against Boydians/ Open Theists that according to your theology we should not be praying to God for the unsaved. The argument goes as such. If man has free will, and God is working equally hard on all hearts, then why pray for unbelievers? Ultimatley God is already doing as much as He can in order to save them, and has left the choice with the non-believer. therefore praying that God will save them, is not coherent or "systematic" with the OVists theology. Would you embrace this conclusion? And does it seem Biblical?
Blessings,
Borg
The argument could just as easily apply to the determinist, borg. If God has already determined who will and who will not be saved, why pray, witness, send missionaries, etc.?
But to the question you propose -- Is prayer for the lost coherent with OV theology? It is important to distinquish between libertarian free will (which does not save us, and does not in and of itself do anything but condemn us for our own sins) and the power of persuasion with respect to individuals' choice. The OVer can pray with confidence that his prayers can make a difference in a situation, working to influence/persuade the target of those prayers to come to Christ.
Similarly, the OVer can preach the gospel with confidence that SOME will be persuaded of the truth in this way, and will come to "the knowledge of the truth."
I am unaware of any reason why OVTheism would require us to say that God is always doing all He can to save everyone. Rather, it seems to me that based on the clear scriptural imperatives of:
1. The Great Commission.
2. The promise that with God all things are possible.
3. The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
The OVTheist should conclude that God will actually do more (through the Holy Spirit's influence) through our prayers than He would have if we hadn't prayed.
I certainly admit this a difficult thing for me to grasp, how that God seems to act MORE when people pray and obey more, but I know no other coherent way to affirm with Scripture, "If my people...pray...then..."
Anyway, that's one nonprofessional Open Theist's take on your interesting question. I was truly unaware of this particular criticism of the Open View. Interesting.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 3/9/2004 7:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
what does it avail to pray for non-believers?
If for not other reason because we are commanded to. Out of obedience.
quote:
Isn't God already doing everything within His power to bring this person to repentence? What more can be done? to say that God needs us to pray in order to knock down barriers sounds like a Frank Peretti theodicy that doesn't seem grounded in the Word.
It is grounded in the Word. Prayer is the vessel through which God empowers us. God gives us authority and sayso through the Holy Spirit. Whatever we bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever we loose on earth... And as John Earp quoted from the bible, " The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
quote:
Why pray that God will do something for the non-believer, when God can't do anymore than He is already doing? Does ones salvation depend on how many people pray for them and how many battles are being won in the "heavenlies"?
Yes. Indirectly it does. We have been given power through the Holy Spirit to have an influence in the world. God uses us as instruments in this warfare. Sometimes our prayers will cause the enemy to flee from a situation that otherwise would have caused havoc. God can move through us and through our world as we give the sayso because God loves us so much he wants us to participate in what happens. Our faith, if only as small as a mustard seed, could move a mountain.
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borg
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| Posted 3/10/2004 5:27 AM (GMT -6) | | John, I guess it's a good thing I'm not a "determinist" then huh? The argument doesn't work against Calvinism, because God has not only ordained who will be saved, but also the means by which those people will be saved. So why pray, evangelize, etc.? Because we are the means of drawing in the elect.
Where in the Bible are we told to pray for non-believers that they would come to a saving knowledge? I'm not necesarily thinking you're wrong, just curious.
"I certainly admit this a difficult thing for me to grasp, how that God seems to act MORE when people pray and obey more, but I know no other coherent way to affirm with Scripture, "If my people...pray...then...""
Thanks for the humility, I appreciate it.
quest, where does God ever say in the Bible that He has given us authority? Is this authority independent of God's? Or is it dependent on God? In other words, do we posses some sort of authority that God has taken away from Himself and given to us? Or is out authority still within God's sovereign rule?
Thanks guys for the help,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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johnmd
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Total Posts : 154
| Posted 3/10/2004 7:10 AM (GMT -6) | | For those really interested in a wholistic Biblical perspective on prayer see Boyd's IS GOD TO BLAME.
Sure OT says God is doing all He can do. The difference with OT compared with Calvin's deterministic system is that with OT man is a legitimate colaborer with God. That is, OT takes this expression of Paul seriously. We actually DO part of the work with God in redeeming the world. God set it up that way. We are not God's puppet or God's "means," WE ARE HIS COLABORERS IN PRAYER, IN MINISTRY IN EVANGELISM, ETC. We are admonished to be faithful and to work because God has given us the choice to do otherwise. Envisioning man as simply a means to an end as a general rule to accomplish any of God's purposes is not expressed in Scroipture and does not account for the full measure of Scripture as commented on by Dr Boyd in his book.
Blessings
John
Blessings
John | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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| Posted 3/10/2004 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Matthew 21:22 - And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
Now if praying in the will of God is what we can and should do, then it by definition follows that God wants us to pray for the lost, for it is "not His will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Pet. 3:9)
Paul prayed for the salvation of Israel:
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
And taught that we should pray for "all men," because God wants all men to be saved:
1 Tim. 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
In the context of prayer, James speaks of converting one who is erring from the truth:
James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
As to determinism, by that I mean Calvinism. Do you, as a Calvinist, believe anything ever happens that is not "according to God's determination and bidding," as Calvin said?
johnmd: Could you elaborate a little on why in the Open View God is always doing all he can to save everyone? I am convinced that the Open View is true, but I honestly don't see how God is doing ALL he can to save everyone all the time. It seems to me that when we pray, witness, etc., God does more than He would have otherwise. I would sincerely like to hear your thoughts.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
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Tom
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| Posted 3/10/2004 9:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
If man has free will, and God is working equally hard on all hearts, then why pray for unbelievers?
Borg
Because what "equally hard" amounts to for God is different depending on whether we pray or not. God always does what he can do, yes. But what God is able to do is limited by our prayerlessness or expanded by our prayerfulness.
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johnmd
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| Posted 3/10/2004 10:13 AM (GMT -6) | |
John E asked
johnmd: Could you elaborate a little on why in the Open View God is always doing all he can to save everyone? I am convinced that the Open View is true, but I honestly don't see how God is doing ALL he can to save everyone all the time. It seems to me that when we pray, witness, etc., God does more than He would have otherwise. I would sincerely like to hear your thoughts.
Johnmd Said
I think TGB summed it up adequately. I think we are all saying about the same thing.
TGB said
Because what "equally hard" amounts to for God is different
depending on whether we pray or not. God always does what he can
do, yes. But what God is able to do is limited by our
prayerlessness or expanded by our prayerfulness.
Blessings
John
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johnmd
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| Posted 3/10/2004 1:05 PM (GMT -6) | | John E said
Interesting how this seems to tie into how TGB and I differ on the theodicy issue. In that discussion, I recall disagreeing that God did everything He could to prevent Carlie's death. It seems to me that saying "God can't" denies God's miraculous ability to intervene. Of course, this is definitely not the same thing as saying God can't make a rock so big he can't lift it. I agree God can't do that which is logically impossible for one possessing omnipotence. The intervention in Carlie's case would not have to have been something physically impossible for God to do.
Johnmd said
I submit that if the "God-rock" thing is a logical impossibility then saying God CAN force His will in a scenario of genuine free will to the contrary also is a logical impossibility.
If libertarian free will is genuine, the implication is that there are some things that God can't do. Now God can certainly do anything He so chooses--miracles, etc., even violation of free will (e.g., "hardening"), even redefing the environment. However I do not believe that Scripture reveals that God has chosen to operate in an "on-again-off-again" environment where free will is arbitrary.
I submit that if free will is genuine then those episodes in the Scripture where miracles occur or hardening occurs are set in a context where moral culpability has not been finalized in the case of miracles or has been finalized in the case of hardening.
I suspect your ultimate contention is that God WON'T override freewill to achieve an end. This is the same as saying God "CAN'T" in a free will environment. The "WON'T" motiff hinges on the nature of the case (i.e., free will). The "CAN'T" motiff assumes the nature of the case.
????
Blessings
John | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 3/10/2004 2:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Johnmd said
If libertarian free will is genuine, the implication is that there are some things that God can't do. Now God can certainly do anything He so chooses--miracles, etc., even violation of free will (e.g., "hardening"), even redefing the environment. However I do not believe that Scripture reveals that God has chosen to operate in an "on-again-off-again" environment where free will is arbitrary.
John E:
It seems that Scripture gives several examples in which God overrides free will to achieve His ends (Pharoah is one famous instance--"for this purpose I have raised you up..."). Of course, such a case as this would be only after the individual in question had hardened their own heart/will to the point where God simply uses them as a pawn from then on. Winkey Pratney refers to this as a "will-freeze," and that the one so moved upon by God bears no moral responsibility for his actions while God is using them in this way. (I think Dr. Boyd would say that they have achieved character solidification).
quote:
I suspect your ultimate contention is that God WON'T override freewill to achieve an end. This is the same as saying God "CAN'T" in a free will environment. The "WON'T" motiff hinges on the nature of the case (i.e., free will). The "CAN'T" motiff assumes the nature of the case.
Good points, Johnmd. I also think that there are situations in which God COULD act, but chooses not to, due to reasons we may not be privy to.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 3/10/2004 3:26 PM (GMT -6) | | alright there were lots of posts thank you. this post might be scattered by i'm replying to the posts as I read them.
Ross thank you.
Johnmd, i guess it's a good thing then that I don't believe that we're puppets huh? I guess God can use us to call in the elect. But I would still hold that we are means. And I don't know how you get away from such a thought. If God calls you to witness to person (A) are you not being the means of God to that person? Help me here.
John Earp the verses intrigue me. "Matthew 21:22 - And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive" and tie "1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him." in with that and it seems that if I ever pray for an unbeliever, that person should be saved, unless it is against the will of God. Doesn't John 15 or 16 say something about getting whatever we ask for in Jesus according to Christ's will? But surely God desires all men (universally) to be saved, is this promise of prayer a lie? Your 1 Tim 2 passage has done nothing to further your point that "all men" speak as "all men" universally that God wants them to be saved. I'm intrigued to hear why you believe it to be such.
My main question to you, is why would God have us pray futile things that He does not have control over? I agree these verses say we should pray for the lost, but why? if ultimatley it depends on man's own willingness to change, God can do nothing more. So why pray for the lost brethren?
If God is not doing all that He can do to save people, does He worker harder on some? If He does work harder on some, does this not entail some sort of election? Do I see God's will ever being thwarted? No.
TGB you honestly believe that God is limited to that extent that there are some things He cannot do without us biding Him? cf Acts 17.
Tigress I seem to think that you, as well as TGB and others, seem to rely on the ability of man too much. This brings in issues of pride in my mind, how do you ovecome those? If God's actions are so contingent on my praying, than how does this not stir up pride that I can give counsel to the Almighty?
To say that won't do something unless man first takes action, how does the story of Jonah play into this? Lets remember that he didn't want to go to Ninevah, he ran away from it. Yet was God's will thwarted? No. for the first time in recorded history a man swallowing fish came and swallowed him whole and spit him back out after three days. it doesn't seem as though God's actions are so contingent on what man freely wants to do. And if there are actions in which could choose and yet chooses not to, is this another way to acknowledge some sort of election? Why doesn't God just appear in the sky with a big sign that says, "I want all to be saved and so here I am, I do exist, I'm God." By making Himself so visible He is not denying man's free will as you would like to have, but rather He is simply making Himself more evident so that His great desire (if He truly wants all men [universally] to be saved) even within more of a grasp.
Blessings
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 3/10/2004 4:16 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
John Earp the verses intrigue me. "Matthew 21:22 - And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive" and tie "1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him." in with that and it seems that if I ever pray for an unbeliever, that person should be saved, unless it is against the will of God.
Well, in my view, there is another will involved--that of the unregenerate.
quote:
Doesn't John 15 or 16 say something about getting whatever we ask for in Jesus according to Christ's will?
Yes, it does. So far, I must have been missing his will an awful lot. 
But seriously, I don't think Christ's promise of "whatsoever you ask" is a carte blanche to get whatever our desires are. First, it is conditioned upon whether or not the thing desired is actually God's will. Second, it is conditioned upon how hard we pray (James says "effectual, FERVENT prayer avails much.") Third, it is conditioned upon how obedient we have been living (the effectual, fervent prayer of a RIGHTEOUS man avails much). Fourth, Christ' promise to grant our requests in His name does not mean we can override someone else's choice. If it did, what a mixed up world it would be, with some people praying one way and others praying another about the very same thing.
quote:
But surely God desires all men (universally) to be saved, is this promise of prayer a lie?
No. The reason any are not saved is due to their own willful rebellion (sin) against the known law of God (see Romans 1, 2, & 3).
quote:
Your 1 Tim 2 passage has done nothing to further your point that "all men" speak as "all men" universally that God wants them to be saved. I'm intrigued to hear why you believe it to be such.
Please look back at my post. I have highlighted the portions of each passage that seemed to me to pertain to the topic at hand.
quote:
My main question to you, is why would God have us pray futile things that He does not have control over? I agree these verses say we should pray for the lost, but why? if ultimatley it depends on man's own willingness to change, God can do nothing more. So why pray for the lost brethren?
It is inaccurate and an oversimplification to say that in OVT or Arminianism it is all up to the human response. The reason I as an OVTer can and should pray for the lost I already referred to in my above post.
quote:
If God is not doing all that He can do to save people, does He worker harder on some? If He does work harder on some, does this not entail some sort of election?
Yes, I think so. Obviously. In my view, the degree of God's working on some one depends on how much others (or even one) is obedient to the calling (as Paul says he was NOT disobedient to his calling). Obedience, in this context, has to do with how much one obeys in prayer, fasting, seeking to be led by the Spirit, seeking to be conformed to the image of Christ, and seeking to BE a witness for Christ. All these things factor into the mix of how hard God works on some individuals.
But this does not require unconditional election to be true. In Isaiah God says "all day long I have stretched out my hands towards an obstinate and disobedient people." (my paraphrase). In John 1 it is said of Jesus that "He came unto his own and his own received him not, but to as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God." Towards the end of his life, Jesus said to the people of Jerusalem:
Matt. 23:37 ‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
quote:
Do I see God's will ever being thwarted? No.
Okay then, how does your position really differ from determinism?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tiggers
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Total Posts : 219
| Posted 3/10/2004 4:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Borg Asserts,
“I'm sure you are all aware of the argument brought against Boydians/ Open Theists that according to your theology we should not be praying to God for the unsaved. The argument goes as such. If man has free will, and God is working equally hard on all hearts, then why pray for unbelievers? Ultimatley God is already doing as much as He can in order to save them, and has left the choice with the non-believer. therefore praying that God will save them, is not coherent or "systematic" with the OVists theology. Would you embrace this conclusion? And does it seem Biblical?
Blessings,
Borg"
Tiggers’ Reply  ,
Hey Borg, I love you and all, truly! And by the way, good question…BUT please knock it off with the Boydian crap. Proclaiming someone is a BOYDIAN is proclaiming that they are a follower of Greg Boyd and not just his theological perspective regarding open theism. And YES, I did attend Bethel College and didn’t like the label then and I don’t like it now. I don’t believe being an Open Theist and being a Boydian are the same; furthermore, what does this say of Rice, or Pinnock who are more of the fathers of the movement anyways. You may think I’m being overly sensitive at this point, and fine, but I work in the local churches and know how labels can be a killer when wrongly placed on them. You see, being that Greg is not dead like Calvin and is the pastor of an alive Christ following church NOT BOYD following CHURCH even though many of the people in attendance probably or GENERALLY hold to one of his theological perspectives (i.e., open theism)! Being called Boydians almost seems cultish and unchristian, and I can’t imagine that if John Calvin were around he would have wanted his congregation to be called Calvinists and not Christians, do ya feel where I’m coming from? Sis/Bro, this is not meant to be harsh, but I’ve attended Bethel and know when people used that term it was not a compliment but rather a sly way to make a fun dig on those holding a different perspective. Enough already I know…Sorry I ramble a bit much at times.
Borg Asserts,
“To say that won't do something unless man first takes action, how does the story of Jonah play into this? Lets remember that he didn't want to go to Ninevah, he ran away from it. Yet was God's will thwarted? No. for the first time in recorded history a man swallowing fish came and swallowed him whole and spit him back out after three days. it doesn't seem as though God's actions are so contingent on what man freely wants to do.”
Tiggers’ Reply,
Yes, Jonah ran away from God as many of us have or will do in the future, and yes God brought Jonah to Nineveh by way of a giant fish (or so the story goes) and spit him back out after three days. Now Borg, I would definitely proclaim that God goes the extra mile or miles to bring others to repentance and salvation; however, I do not believe you are making a very strong argument concluding with… “it doesn't seem as though God's actions are so contingent on what man freely wants to do” all based on the story of Jonah. First, you have in no way proved that Jonah could not choose other than what God wanted him to do at the time, i.e., call Nineveh to repentance.
Borg Asserts,
“And if there are actions in which could choose and yet chooses not to, is this another way to acknowledge some sort of election?”
Tiggers’ Reply,
Borg, choosing not to choose is in fact, CHOOSING! I don’t understand how this could be acknowledging some sort of election.
Borg Asserts,
“Why doesn't God just appear in the sky with a big sign that says, "I want all to be saved and so here I am, I do exist, I'm God. By making Himself so visible He is not denying man's free will as you would like to have, but rather He is simply making Himself more evident so that His great desire (if He truly wants all men [universally] to be saved) even within more of a grasp."
Tiggers’ Reply,
Ok, I admit that I’ve asked this question to myself before, and I’m sure many others have also; however, in some ways hasn’t God done this, Borg. I mean think about it, God came on earth walking with us, teaching us, performing signs and miracles, he came to rescue us, if you will, see John16:7-15 where Jesus tells his disciples about the big H.S. and what’s to come, then go to Acts 2 (Pentecost), the great commission, heck we have the Bible itself screaming out to us, etc. My point is that maybe God has and is writing it in the sky, but we just have to submit to it (i.e., choosing this day whom we will serve, dig?).
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers 
“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie). | | Back to Top | | |
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johnmd
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Total Posts : 154
| Posted 3/10/2004 5:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Borg asks
Johnmd, i guess it's a good thing then that I don't believe that we're puppets huh? I guess God can use us to call in the elect. But I would still hold that we are means. And I don't know how you get away from such a thought. If God calls you to witness to person (A) are you not being the means of God to that person? Help me here.
Johnmd
Does God always get His way? If yes, all men are ultimately puppets-under the illusion of free will—but puppets none the less. If no then you have just ran into the arms of Open Theism.
I can be a "means" of God to witness IF I CHOOSE TO BE. That is in fact the distinction between being a “means” (a puppet) and a “colaborer.” I prefer not to venture too far from the text. The text of Scripture refers to man being "colaborers." Nowhere does Scripture call man a "means." This is exactly the type of man made construct I have cited in my previous posts regarding Calvinism. This "mechanical" rendering of the relationship between God and man is but one example of how Calvinism robs the life of the mutual relationship between God and man depicted in Scripture.
Just as a puppet is a "means" for the puppeteer to communicate so are Calvin's elect. The confusing thing to me about Calvinism is that God uses the elect as the "means" to draw in other elect. This is smoke and mirrors. The process is arbitrary. Sort of like a puppeteer doing a puppet show for other puppets. Evangelism as per Calvin is analogous to the puppet on God’s right hand telling the puppet on God’s left hand what to do. I see no glory in that…Just an arbitrary means to an arbitrary end.
This whole business of man being God’s “means” to win the elect is double talk if libertarian free will is not genuine. Again the Scripture calls us to the context of a “colaborer” with God. I submit that Paul’s concept of “colaborer” is rooted in the Jewish bond slave tradition which implicitly required a choice on the part of the slave to continue to labor, voluntarily, with the Master. The Spirit chooses His words carefully. When He says colaborer that is what is meant. The Spirit does not mislead us with His analogies. When He says colaborer there is an immediate correlation with our concept of such which is distinct from laborer, distinct from slave, distinct from robot, and distinct from “mean.” The nature of the case of this world is that God colabors with those who will colabor with Him.
To God alone be the glory,
John
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 3/10/2004 5:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Borg said
My main question to you, is why would God have us pray futile things that He does not have control over?
I do not grant your assumption that God is asking us to pray futile things. We pray for the lost precisely because God has indicated that prayer IS a part of the process of redemption. And this process involves man
Your statement, “If ultimately it depends on man's own willingness to change…” This statement is correct. However, this does not occur in a vacuum. In the context of our world God can and does persuade and influence and win the lost beginning with the atonement and working through the Spirit and blessing and cursing and believers who are obedient in prayer, evangelism and ministry. We are here aren’t we? Hence God working with man has done something right. “God could do nothing more” is a vast understatement. History testifies that God has done it.
“…does He worker harder on some? If He does work harder on some, does this not entail some sort of election?” Great question. I submit that God brings all the power of heaven to bear on each soul. However, there is a [spiritual] war going on. All supply lines are not intact [yet]. Based on what we know of God’s character He will be fair in the end to all. He has chosen to work with men [and angels] to win the war. This is the testimony of scripture. This has nothing to do with election. Man is elected when he fulfills God’s requirements of salvation (repent and believe) God is doing all he can for each man to persuade each man to fulfill the requirement and accept the free gift He offers. There is nothing futile about God doing His best to persuade someone who might be persuaded.
In contrast, what is futile is Jesus telling me to love my enemies which I presume means that on the basis of my love for them means that I do everything that I can to bring them to salvation and avoidance of eternal torment. That is what we do for people that we love. What is futile is God telling me to do this all the while He knows for a certainty because He determined the one He has called me to love and lead to salvation never had a prayer of a chance to receive salvation. NOW THAT IS FUTILE.
How about a global exercise in futility…”Go ye therefore into ALL the WORLD teaching them to observe all things…”—Never mind that I have preprogrammed most to reject what you teach them. Now that is futile.
Borg said
Do I see God's will ever being thwarted? No.
That my friend is the definition of a puppeteer if applied in the micro.
Scripture gives many examples of God accomplishing His will in the macro (e.g., the Exodus). However, the glory of God I believe is revealed in the accomplishment of His will despite the rebellion of many individuals and not because of it.
To God alone be the glory
John
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 3/10/2004 5:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Borg said
Tigress I seem to think that you, as well as TGB and others, seem to rely on the ability of man too much. This brings in issues of pride in my mind, how do you ovecome those? If God's actions are so contingent on my praying, than how does this not stir up pride that I can give counsel to the Almighty?
John said
Have you read Exodus 32 lately? Sounds like Moses gave counsel to the Almighty and God in deference to Moseses faithfulness honored him and conceded. That is what the text says. Only a manmade construct could contort this text otherwise. There is no hint that God is being disingenuous in His dialogue with Moses.
Now to serve a God who honors faithfulness in that way is humbling not pride provoking. Besides, God is a wise Father and knows when His children are getting into pride. He can handle that too. He doesn't have to concede to man's counsel ever time, only when man "gets it" and makes a suggestion that God can work with in His plan to work all things to the good.
To God alone be the glory
John
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 3/18/2004 7:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Tiggers’ Reply, (To Borg)
{"Yes, Jonah ran away from God as many of us have or will do in the future, and yes God brought Jonah to Nineveh by way of a giant fish (or so the story goes) and spit him back out after three days. Now Borg, I would definitely proclaim that God goes the extra mile or miles to bring others to repentance and salvation; however, I do not believe you are making a very strong argument concluding with… “it doesn't seem as though God's actions are so contingent on what man freely wants to do” all based on the story of Jonah. First, you have in no way proved that Jonah could not choose other than what God wanted him to do at the time, i.e., call Nineveh to repentance."}
(Jo-Anne) Borg,
Then God told Jonah to tell the people of Ninevah that He was going to utterly destroy them. The people began to respond, to pray. They turned their hearts toward Him and He relented. He changed His mind.
God responds to prayer.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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