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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 12/5/2008 8:54 AM (GMT -6) |   | | I watched this news special last night on CNN, by Christiane Amanpour. It really bothered me, and focused my thoughts regarding pacifism such as Greg advocates.
CNN's Christiane Amanpour traveled to the world's killing fields to understand the world's indifference, even as courageous voices tried to "Scream Bloody Murder." A worldwide investigation and two-hour documentary, premiering on CNN/US at 9 p.m. ET/PT December 4 and on CNN International at 0200 GMT December 5.
Have any of you seen it?
A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy? - Einstein | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/5/2008 3:53 PM (GMT -6) | | | I've been meaning to check it out. I missed it. It looked to be a really good watch though. I really respect Amanpour as a journalist. Actually, CNN's just been on for a minute now. (I love Anderson Cooper 360.)
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 12/6/2008 9:02 AM (GMT -6) | | | What I'm chewing on is this: isn't pacifism functionally equivalent to indifference when it comes to stopping a genocide in progress? Aren't these examples where a countering FORCE would have been better? I'll concede up front that the killing of the aggressors that may happen in the course of this is an evil, too. And I'm as concerned for them as for the victims. But, especially given universalism, is countering them with potentially lethal force the worst thing that can happen to them?
My general instincts are: maximize beauty, minimize ugliness. In the case of Rwanda, for example, it seems quite likely that a small show of force in the beginning (when the commander there requested it) would have likely saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Would this not be more beautiful than what actually transpired?
A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy? - EinsteinPost Edited (Corey) : 12/6/2008 8:09:17 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 12/6/2008 10:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Corey,
I watched Scream Bloody Murder. It was tough, but I did. (actually, it was really tough! Everytime they went to commercial and came back with the warning for sensitive views I contemplated turning it off.) But I hung in there...and i was glad I did.
My favorite part was at the end when they reviewed Darfur. I haven't processed it fully yet, but I remember they called the "save darfur" movement a "grassroots effort to end genocide." Now, I'm not sure all that entailed or how effective it was in the end, but I have to believe it did something. And it really made me wonder what such a movement could have done for Rwanda etc. What did you think?
On these:
C: What I'm chewing on is this: isn't pacifism functionally equivalent to indifference when it comes to stopping a genocide in progress?
T: This is a great question. I bet it certainly feels like indifference to the ppl experiencing pain and suffering.
C: Aren't these examples where a countering FORCE would have been better?
T: If I were in pain like that and my dad was killed, house burned, mom, sister, brother tortured, I wouldn't have words for someone who risked their life to FORCE an end to my suffering. If we think about this concretely...as if it were us... how would you feel about ppl using force to stop your attackers?
C: I'll concede up front that the killing of the aggressors that may happen in the course of this is an evil, too. And I'm as concerned for them as for the victims. But, especially given universalism, is countering them with potentially lethal force the worst thing that can happen to them?
T: In my completely humble and less than 1/2 cent opinion, I say we don't kill (initially) because universalism isn't the case. Eternal separation from God/torment is. Thou shalt not kill is a command because it gives the perpetrators a chance to repent and be saved - if at all possible. However, if they refuse God's grace and continue to steal, kill and destroy, then I turn to Ecclesiastes - which says there is a time for everything. I think there is a time to kill.
(but don't look to me, I go back and forth on this issue in general!)
*post edited to be a little more coherent for my friend, shane*
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love."
~ Soren Kierkegaard
Post Edited (selah) : 12/15/2008 6:58:24 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 12/6/2008 10:34 AM (GMT -6) | | T: If I were in pain like that and my dad was killed, house burned, mom, sister, brother tortured, I wouldn't have words for someone who risked their life to FORCE an end to my suffering. If we think about this concretely...as if it were us... how would you feel about ppl using force to stop your attackers?
C: I imagine I would be profoundly grateful, and conversely, if the strong man at the door did nothing, I don't know how I could trust him again because I could not believe he is good. This is something that really bothered me a few weeks ago in Greg's sermon where he used an example of an abused girl who had to hide under her sink to escape her horrible father. Greg talked about re-imagining that situation with her, with Jesus there, gently bringing her out from under the sink and comforting her... after the fact! But I couldn't help think, "Jesus, if you were there the whole time, and you care, and you are strong, why didn't you protect me? You knew I was under the sink hiding in terror, and you were right there, doing nothing?! This looks exactly like indifference to me."
A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy? - EinsteinPost Edited (Corey) : 12/6/2008 10:00:41 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/6/2008 10:59 AM (GMT -6) | | T: If I were in pain like that and my dad was killed, house burned, mom, sister, brother tortured, I wouldn't have words for someone who risked their life to FORCE an end to my suffering. If we think about this concretely...as if it were us... how would you feel about ppl using force to stop your attackers?
C: I imagine I would be profoundly grateful, and conversely, if the strong man at the door did nothing, I don't know how I could trust him again because I could not believe he is good. This is something that really bothered me a few weeks ago in Greg's sermon where he used an example of an abused girl who had to hide under her sink to escape her horrible father. Greg talked about re-imagining that situation with her, with Jesus there, gently bringing her out from under the sink and comforting her... after the fact! But I couldn't help think, "Jesus, why if you were there the whole time, and you care, and you are strong, didn't you protect me? You knew I was under the sink hiding in terror, and you were right there, doing nothing?! How can I possibly trust you? How can I not conclude that you were indifferent to my plight?
Now, doesn't this make the "two-storey" view of God seem a lot more helpful to the human mind trying to figure this out? To put Christ in the situation in a "radical understanding of omniscience"...and THEN to hear silence...would be too hard for many Christians to bear, I'd wager. Better for us to somehow think that Jesus WASN'T there the whole time...or WASN'T a "strong man at the door doing nothing."
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/6/2008 11:19 AM (GMT -6) | | I can feel the struggle. To say that the FULLNESS of God (Divine Power in Divine Presence) is always around you at all times...and to see such things happen to innocents (Holocaust, Rwanda, Cambodia, etc) would send our moral judgement sensibilities into virtual tizzies. I think that's why the founder of "Voice for the Martyrs" and writer of "Tortured for Christ" when asked about theodicy in some magazine interview, said that he intentionally never gave it much thought...pushing his mind away from that, meaning the attempted justification of God in the midst of evil. He would focus his time assuming God's presence and grace to save...and try to keep up with what God's Spirit was doing at the moment.
Looking back (I read that back in '01 in seminary), that's about the sanest answer I've yet heard.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
"I love, therefore I am in I Am." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/6/2008 10:24:10 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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CalvinnHobbes
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 12/13/2008 1:53 AM (GMT -6) | | |
I saw this special. I'm glad Amanpour tackled this.
T: In my completely humble and less than 1/2 cent opinion, I say we don't kill because universalism isn't the case. Eternal separation from God/torment is. Thou shalt not kill is a command because it gives the perpetrators a chance to repent and be saved.
Shane: But if universalism isn't the case, does our pacifism allow the perps to send countless people immediately to hell who could have had the chance to come to faith if we had forcefully protected them?
Just wondering.
Shane
"There is no fit search after truth which does not, first of all, begin to live the truth which it knows." ~Horace BushnellPost Edited (CalvinnHobbes) : 12/13/2008 12:58:04 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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CalvinnHobbes
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 12/14/2008 5:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for the clarification, T. Makes sense to me. I hope you're doing well. You guys should come over for games/dinner sometime in January. I think it's our turn to host.  | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 12/15/2008 7:51 AM (GMT -6) | | | Thanks Shane. We'd love to come over for game night sometime in Jan. Let us know a couple dates that work for you guys and we'll get it on the calendar.
Blessings and safe travels during the holidays,
T
"When one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love." ~ Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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