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BBBCanada
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   Posted 1/25/2009 10:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My buddy writes and excellent piece on the responsibility of differing realms at his blog.  Hopefully, as you can see, this is why state is not all about force (at least in the negative sense) as well as how this concerns justice for all and how things like what we spoke about this week concerning racism play into this. 
 
The Pluriformity of Legal Realms
For the past half millennium, since the rise of legal positivism, i.e., the belief that law is rooted in a sovereign legislative will, the popular mind has simply assumed that all law is a creature of the state. The Reformed Christian concept of sphere sovereignty and the Catholic principle of subsidiarity have been part of a larger effort to combat this statist conception. Seemingly following this tradition, John E. Coons writes In Defense of the Sovereign Family, an essay worth reading. Coons writes:

The original form of the American Constitution may be read as reserving to the individual states the authority to occupy law’s entire province, minus the federal fraction. But language expressly limiting the range of governmental law entered the national text in 1791, as nervous founders added the Ninth and Tenth Amendments in the Bill of Rights: “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people,” and “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

The most obvious aim of these reservations was to create a hedge against tendencies to monopoly not by the states but by the new federal regime. But, in doing so, they also by implication limited the power of the states to occupy all of the remaining range of lawmaking. Given the references to “the people,” it is hard to read these texts as an invitation to a local monopoly by, say, Oregon or Wisconsin. The people hold ground of their own in both amendments. The word or in the Tenth Amendment even makes the individual state and its people competitors in the creation of law, suggesting that the two could exercise their powers contrarily within the uncharted zone.

This is not, of course, a matter of the US Constitution creating space for so-called civil society to exercise its proper jurisdiction. Rather, the document merely acknowledges the prior existence of such space: "The Constitution contains a clear textual recognition that ideas—and even rules—about the common good can originate outside the state and be entitled to dignified reception (“not . . . disparaged”) when presented for recognition as law" (emphasis mine). Coons continues:

A clear judicial recognition that parents are an independent source of law for their children—making and enforcing commands that no state or federal government can preempt or forbid—would have profound practical consequences. In the years to come, conflicts between agencies of the state and parents are likely to increase, and courts will be asked, more and more, to reexamine the limits of the parentocracy. Wealth and improving technology will constantly present new options for parents. The educational versatility of the Internet is making homeschooling easier and more attractive, for instance, letting more parents remove their children from the direct influence of the public-school system; already advocates of conscriptive public schooling worry that these children will not be properly socialized and given correct information about sex, medicine, the environment, or what­ever these advocates feel they need.

The significance of all this, however, depends less on who wins particular cases than on which of two master images dominates the consciousness of the nation’s judges: the image of delegation to parents from the monopoly state, or the counterimage of a sovereign parentocracy.

The former is the vision of legal positivism while the latter is the vision of what might be called the pluriformity of legal realms, as articulated in sphere sovereignty and subsidiarity.

It is by no means coincidental that the widespread acceptance of legal positivism has produced a climate in which governments claim the right, not simply to adjudicate the boundaries of such essential institutions as marriage and family, but even to redefine them outright. Ironically, it is the very liberal individualism that would reduce such institutions to mere voluntary associations that calls upon the state actively to support this reductive vision. Over the long term individualism leads inexorably to statism.

If, on the other hand, these institutions exist, not only apart from the will of government and the wills of constitutive individuals, but as genuine spheres of law rooted in something beyond the human will, then government is obligated to respect their spheres of legal competence and to refrain from interfering in their internal life unless absolutely necessary to the doing of public justice. But this requires that the state abandon the "master image" of its own legal omnicompetence.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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Similitude
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   Posted 1/25/2009 11:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Brandon: Hopefully, as you can see, this is why state is not all about force (at least in the negative sense) ...

Jeff: I agree. Rom 13 says the state motivates by fear AND PRAISE. What I contend is that if you remove the force, the praise, too, will go with it. For the state's enemies would overthrow it if it ceased to sustain itself by a monopoly of maximal force.

I, too, agree that consolidation is a negative move for the state. But, alas, the whole history of man is the history of the powerful consolidating to themselves more power even if it has to shamelessly usurp power to do so. And the moral weakness of man provides no competent resistance to this tendency. This is why the prophets spoke of the people as sheep that are virtually powerless before their "shepherds." That's why it is true what has been said: The only thing man learns from history is that men never learn from history. Nothing but the King of Kings, the true Shepherd, will ever correct this fallen state of affairs.

 



 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 1/25/2009 11:24 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't doubt that the political and societal affairs of the West look pretty dim. And I would never say we'll have a perfect society. However, I do think there will be times when this monopoly will increase to overtake other areas. At other times, it will subside. At other times it will do both at the same time. To say other wise, seems to me to ignore what's right in front of us a lot of times. This is something that always needs to be fought for. You just can't take for granted that once you've achieved victory in a certain area that that means you will see it in other areas or that that achievement is beyond being lost. It's a very precious thing to be guarded. My issue is that the reason why we have such a mishmash of political sentiment comes down to what is essentially and fundamentally being stated above. You grasp that? You can then see where the problem lies for much of our societal ills and then(!)...you can do something about it.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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Similitude
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   Posted 1/25/2009 11:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree with everything you're saying. I just think when you vote for establishment guy 1 or establishment guy 2 you are voting for further consolidation. A co-worker jokingly said he wanted to make a bumper sticker that says "If you don't vote 3rd party, you're part of the problem." He was trying to make your very point. Another guy I heard on the radio said he hears a lot of people say we need a good third party option. He said, amusingly, what we need is a real SECOND party option. IOW, both establishment parties are about consolidation of power. We should resist it by all honorable means. The problem is, with the coming hate crimes, resisting it will itself be considered a crime. They know what they're doing. They're smart like a fox.


 

Post Edited (Similtude) : 1/25/2009 10:35:17 AM (GMT-6)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 1/25/2009 11:37 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
By the way, when you say, "if it ceased to sustain itself by a monopoly of maximal force" are you saying that that maximal force includes having the power for example in which parents don't have the right to educate their children as they see fit? I'm saying that government has its own responsibility, parents, schools, etc, have theirs. Part of it's responsibility is to protect its citizens from their enemies which fall under its domain. But this does not require "maximal force" such as in totalitarian states. In other words, government doesn't have authority over children as the parent should have in order for it to maintain "maximal force."  Each essentially has its own power.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 1/25/2009 10:40:12 AM (GMT-6)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 1/25/2009 11:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
By the way, it's not implausible to have each area having its own domain and have the two major parties in power. I don't see the connection.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 1/25/2009 11:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
By the way, this is why I have some issues when it comes down to our discussions of race on these boards. I see the race relations issue as a box within a box so-to-speak. IMO, the race issue needs to be understood against the backdrop of what is stated in the first post. It needs to be understood against the larger issue of government overstepping its boundaries. This is not something specific to blacks, or asians as governmental injustice occurs against EVERYONE.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 1/25/2009 12:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah...I'm starting to see this shape up again....everything is reduced to power plays. Government power plays. Politicians power playing. I mean, that's Jeff's thing. But...ugh...lol.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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Similitude
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   Posted 1/25/2009 12:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon: By the way, when you say, "if it ceased to sustain itself by a monopoly of maximal force" are you saying that that maximal force includes having the power for example in which parents don't have the right to educate their children as they see fit? I'm saying that government has its own responsibility, parents, schools, etc, have theirs. Part of it's responsibility is to protect its citizens from their enemies which fall under its domain. But this does not require "maximal force" such as in totalitarian states. In other words, government doesn't have authority over children as the parent should have in order for it to maintain "maximal force."  Each essentially has its own power.
 
Jeff: Your last sentence is what is confusing to me. Each DOES have it's own God-given authority. But I don't have the power to educate my children if the State puts me in jail, now do I? IOW, there is a difference between God-given authority and power, per se.
 
Brandon: By the way, it's not implausible to have each area having its own domain and have the two major parties in power. I don't see the connection.
 
Jeff: There is no logical connection in the sense that the laws of logic dictate it. It's just that the two major parties are active in consolidating more and more illegitimate and unconstitutional power to the federal government. The Democrats do it in their own way, and the Republicans do it in their own way. But they both do it, setting further precedents in each administration that almost never get reversed by subsequent administrations.
 
Brandon: IMO, the race issue needs to be understood against the backdrop of what is stated in the first post. It needs to be understood against the larger issue of government overstepping its boundaries. This is not something specific to blacks, or asians as governmental injustice occurs against EVERYONE.
 
Jeff: Absolutely. I totally agree.
 
Brandon: Yeah...I'm starting to see this shape up again....everything is reduced to power plays. Government power plays. Politicians power playing. I mean, that's Jeff's thing. But...ugh...lol.
 
Jeff: I don't argue that politicians are CONSCIOUSLY doing power plays, though some truly are. What I SEE is that regardless of what the motive is, power IS being consolidated in a way that trumps the God-given roles of parents and communities. Are you a post-millenialist? If so, I can see why you are more hopeful than me. Regardless, I agree with you that we should resist the unjust consolidation of power/jurisdiction by all honorable/loving means. But we may differ as to what is honorable. So that would be the real difference between us. We are not in disagreement on the point of your original post. I totally agree with it.
 
I think where we disagree has to do with what is knowable and what is just. I don't believe, for example, that government has a divinely given authority to forceably redistribute wealth. And I truly don't know that Obama is better or worse for humankind than John McCain. I suspect you think you know that one or the other IS better though. This is where our disagreement is--not the principles you're arguing for in the original post.
 
 


 

Post Edited (Similtude) : 1/25/2009 11:33:23 AM (GMT-6)

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Tom
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   Posted 1/25/2009 2:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This board rocks sometimes!

T
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BBBCanada
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   Posted 1/25/2009 9:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff: Your last sentence is what is confusing to me. Each DOES have it's own God-given authority. But I don't have the power to educate my children if the State puts me in jail, now do I? IOW, there is a difference between God-given authority and power, per se.
 
Brandon:  Well of course you can't educate your children if you are in jail.  There is a difference between authority and power.  But the issue Authority and power can both be abused which is the point.  The education of kids should fall under the authority of the parent not the state.  If the state acts omnicompetently it will act unjustly and its authority on that issue is illegitimate.  My point is that you seem to think the state's position is ALL about power plays.  I don't.  On the "The Forgotten Heart of King" thread, you say, "The state is force writ large."  If the state recognizes other realms of legality as legitimate then it can be said to be acting justly.  There's no force there.  Even if you want to say that the government threatens by punishment of some sort, this would eventually show a weak government. Saying that, "The state is force write large" seems to me to be essentially the same as saying, "might makes right."  That is, only political authority is a sovereign's monopoly over coercive force.  It's my belief that the exercise of power must be exercised either by a higher power or by the democratically-expressed will of citizens.
 
But did you read the "First Things" article?  The real question is, "Whose is what?  What is whos?"  He specifically says,

"Every such concession to other sources of law obviously makes state monopoly less plausible. Nevertheless, let us take the monopolist seriously and ask the straightforward question: Does law in the United States consist of nothing but the doings of the federal and state systems, or are there regimes that create and enforce authentic law beyond their reach? Do some persons or institutions make and enforce commands that **no state or federal government can preempt or forbid?**

The answer is yes, even if law is understood en­tirely in the positivist way, as the sheer authority to command with force sufficient to secure habitual obedience. The parents of underage children form a good example, for they are themselves genuine lawmakers. Because too many people believe that only the government makes law, the lawmaking role of parents has been largely invisible, and this invisibility has practical and un­for­tunate consequences for American culture and ­jurisprudence."

Jeff: There is no logical connection in the sense that the laws of logic dictate it. It's just that the two major parties are active in consolidating more and more illegitimate and unconstitutional power to the federal government. The Democrats do it in their own way, and the Republicans do it in their own way. But they both do it, setting further precedents in each administration that almost never get reversed by subsequent administrations.

Brandon:  Right.  Though I don't think you and I agree on what is meant by that exactly--such as your position below about the "redistribution of wealth." 

Jeff: I don't argue that politicians are CONSCIOUSLY doing power plays, though some truly are. What I SEE is that regardless of what the motive is, power IS being consolidated in a way that trumps the God-given roles of parents and communities. Are you a post-millenialist? If so, I can see why you are more hopeful than me. Regardless, I agree with you that we should resist the unjust consolidation of power/jurisdiction by all honorable/loving means. But we may differ as to what is honorable. So that would be the real difference between us. We are not in disagreement on the point of your original post. I totally agree with it.
 
I think where we disagree has to do with what is knowable and what is just. I don't believe, for example, that government has a divinely given authority to forceably redistribute wealth. And I truly don't know that Obama is better or worse for humankind than John McCain. I suspect you think you know that one or the other IS better though. This is where our disagreement is--not the principles you're arguing for in the original post.
 
Brandon:  No, I'm not a post-millenialist.  I just believe (as I always have) that not only do we have the responsibility to effect society politically, but that by God's strenght and power we can see a certain amount of change.  I also don't think one politician is better than another.  Obama had more to say about the underlying problems surround abortion and is better on the global front IMO.  Senator McCain was better faith-based initiatives but he had no plan for it.  There's both pros and cons to each.

 

 


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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Similitude
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   Posted 1/26/2009 7:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon: Saying that, "The state is force write large" seems to me to be essentially the same as saying, "might makes right." 
 
Jeff: That's not what it means at all. It means that without a monopoly on the degree of force required to motivate by fear, it would be impotent in every respect. This is undeniable.
 
Brandon: It's my belief that the exercise of power must be exercised either by a higher power or by the democratically-expressed will of citizens.
 
Jeff: We are to be subject and pay taxes regardless. For the divinely-authorized role of government can be done as effectually or ineffectually by a monarch as it can by a democracy.
 
Brandon: I just believe (as I always have) that not only do we have the responsibility to effect society politically, but that by God's strenght and power we can see a certain amount of change.  I also don't think one politician is better than another.  Obama had more to say about the underlying problems surround abortion and is better on the global front IMO.  Senator McCain was better faith-based initiatives but he had no plan for it.  There's both pros and cons to each.
 
Jeff: Then why would I have voted or campaigned in the last presidential election, except to vote for a non-establishment candidate to EXPRESS my will? Which is what I did.
 


 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 1/27/2009 12:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff: That's not what it means at all. It means that without a monopoly on the degree of force required to motivate by fear, it would be impotent in every respect. This is undeniable.
 
Brandon:  You didn't quote me fully here.  I said, ""The state is force write large" seems to me to be essentially the same as saying, "might makes right."  That is, only political authority is a sovereign's monopoly over coercive force.  This is essentially what you are saying above.  You seem to be saying that the government can only motivate by fear.  Therefore it requires having a monopoly on force.  I'm saying that there has to be a certain level of respect for political authority, something that has to authorize that authority a priori to it being authoritative.  When a government rules via fear ie. seeing armed police everywhere? That authority has begun to break down.  It is a sign of a weak government.  Society is just like children--you can't rule by threat.  Have you ever heard of something called, "revolt" or "revolution?"
 
Jeff: We are to be subject and pay taxes regardless. For the divinely-authorized role of government can be done as effectually or ineffectually by a monarch as it can by a democracy.
 
Brandon:  I think you might be missing what I'm saying.  See the above answer.
 
Jeff: Then why would I have voted or campaigned in the last presidential election, except to vote for a non-establishment candidate to EXPRESS my will? Which is what I did.
 
Brandon:  Jeff, you and I have some pretty different views on government.  I don't see consolidation of power where you might see it.  I see government for example, acting omni-competently where it should not.  This is, if you want to say is a "consolidation of power."  Frankly, I don't even know if I quite understand what you mean by "consolidation of power."  Does it mean acting in the role of parent and putting my kids to sleep at night?  Does it mean teaching university students?  By the way, have you noticed that while Americans have this seemingly paranoia about "centralized and overweening government" the ironic thing is that on a local scale you can go to any major city and see hundreds if not perhaps thousands of municipal governments ranging from cities, villages, townships, school districts, sanitary districts and counties?  You may see this as a bad thing, but it only shows me that we humans require authority and order as a part of our existence.
 
 


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 1/27/2009 11:44:51 AM (GMT-6)

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Similitude
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   Posted 1/27/2009 7:58 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon, we're in agreement except you seem to be arguing from premises as if those premises aren't accounted for by more fundamental truths. Montesquieu said, for example:
 
As virtue is necessary in a republic, and in a monarchy honor, so fear is necessary in a despotic government:
 
In other words, OF COURSE a government should have respect. I've already said that even Rom. 13 says governments are to PRAISE THE GOOD!!!! But if it does not deserve respect, it can only be feared. And it will only be WORTHY of respect if it is ruling NOT merely according to the consent of the majority, but according to the consent of a VIRTUOUS majority. Societies tend to degenerate morally. They allow their governments to usurp MORE and MORE power over every aspect of their lives because they are NOT VIRTUOUS. They give up the God-given authority and jurisdiction over the realm of their God-given duty in a trade for government sanction of their vices. A government IS a reflection of the majority of its subjects.


 

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Similitude
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   Posted 1/29/2009 8:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
IOW, Brandon, just as God told a prophet to tell the Israelites to repent, even though they COULDN'T repent, there are conditions in the world that we have no control over. We do what we can.


 

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