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One Love
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| Posted 4/25/2010 2:10 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/25/2010 2:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Similtude:
That's not to say that American hegemony is bad, necessarily. It's just that when the goal is pursued using deceit and hypocrisy to attain and maintain power, WAY too many innocent people end up getting hurt and killed. God is not interested in American hegemony if it can only come at the expense of government injustice and hypocrisy/deceit. If American hegemony is a natural consequence of justice and truthfulness, then I have no reason to believe God is opposed to it.
How about this: To the degree that ANY nation's hegemony lives according to doing justice, loving kindness, living righteously (truthfulness), and walking with humility, God wouldn't oppose it...because that's what He wants us to do.
He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?
...
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Feel me, Jeff?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 4/25/2010 2:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Hmmm...I guess one can ask the following question:
How does the American Government (by and large) rate on these things:
1) doing humanizing justice
2) loving kindness and compassion
3) living righteously (truthfully, peacefully)
4) walking with humility before others.
It would be good to get NON-American perspectives on this, by the way...
However one rates the U.S. Government against this criteria, whether lacking or not, will be a decent approximation on how much the U.S. Government can say it's on "God's Side."
Would anyone like to take a stab at it?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 4/25/2010 2:37:41 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 4/25/2010 5:04 PM (GMT -6) | | | OL, I take that verse as referring to Jesus going farther than the external law about murder (found in certain attitudes) as well as talking about anger. I don't take that to mean that one cannot call a spade a spade. I'm not saying that one should be condescending (that is against Christ's teaching) but there are, it seems, contexts in which one can use such language. For example,
A. Between friends
B. Between counsellors and those being counselled
C. In impersonal matters.
Between friends, it would go like this: "Hey bud, listen, I think you are trying hard but I think you are going overboard and well, being an ass." No anger there on my part, just good ol love and concern.
Between counsellor and those being counselled it could go like this: Parole officer. "Listen Rodriguez, we've given you so many chances and you keep stealing little ol ladies purses. I mean, I can't let it go this time. You have to quit being an ass man!"
And then in impersonal matters like what Marshall did. Doesn't know the guy personally, but knows he has created some injustices. He isn't personally angry with the guy he just knows the guy is what he is. Its hard to imagine that Jesus could use the term "fool" or "fools" or "foolish" so many times in the Bible and yet love these misfit ragamuffins. But I suppose we couldn't use "misfit ragamuffin" either? As I see it, it is ultimately between that person and God in which context they've used a term in.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 4/25/2010 5:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Here, let me put it out there like this OL. This is so hard for us to do, but think of Jesus' style. Is it possible to think of Jesus as being confrontational without being demeaning? We have such a hard time with this, but I think there is a HUGE difference here. When you think of Jesus' style, his embodied and parabolic correctives of mis-appropriations of the Law would be better described as "prophetic" (in the truest OT sense of the term) and "apocalyptic" (in the 2nd Temple Jewish sense of the term). In these traditional forms of confrontation, "demeaning" is never the performative sense of corrective dialogue or action. When we look at such rhetoric in light of speech act theory we see that while Jesus' locutionary or or illocutionary acts are very similar to that of say, Jeremiah, in perlocutionary terms, Jesus cannot be called "demeaning" or "dismissive" by any stretch of the imagination. The attitude of prophesis in the tradition that Jesus belongs to is better described as "confrontational," "insistent," and "provocative." So. You will find no validation for "demeaning" speech acts in the records we have about Jesus life and ministry. He often was in the habit of "telling it like it is" when it came to confronting demonic perversions of nature and theology, but denouncing something manifestly "Satanic" still doesn't strike me as "demeaning." It really seems to be at a whole new level.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 4/25/2010 7:13 PM (GMT -6) | | |
about your question. I’ll don’t really feel qualified to respond to that as I’m not so much up on current events. What I will say is this. You asked the question about the “International Cops For Christ.” You said, “ Do you think that Cops for Christ having these beliefs in particular possibly affects the way they do their job? Do you think that having these particular beliefs affect the way they see the LAWBREAKERS that they deal with? Hmmm…”
I will say yes and no. It seems that there is a lot more at work in terms of how people do their jobs but ultimately (not only) one’s theology or influence from theology will affect how they see themselves and how they relate to their world. And in terms of the US and the rest of the world, it seems that there is a lot more at work in terms of the Axis of Evil then one President could muster. This seems to go to the heart of the American psyche as a nation. That is, embedded in the American way of life is the “future oriented-self confidence.” And this future oriented self-confidence was based upon a particular Puritan theology which saw America as a light to the world (shapers of the global village). Bush seemed to me to iconify that the most but its still there even when he is gone.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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One Love
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| Posted 4/25/2010 7:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
about your question. I’ll don’t really feel qualified to respond to that as I’m not so much up on current events.
I don't understand, bro. The term had been in use from 2002. Hardly "current" at all. See here.
Maybe this question is just more difficult than I'm thinking it is...hmmmm...
Ah, forget it.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 4/25/2010 7:40:58 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 4/25/2010 7:48 PM (GMT -6) | | OK. Think about it like this. You hear EVERY President use it. I think Obama used it just today in a memorial to the miners who died in Virginia (to applause. I thought memorials were sad depressing events. But I guess you Americans do things differently than the rest of us, LOL. "God Bless America." Seriously. What does that mean? Is this some sort of humble cry? Did Obama really mean it? Are presidents really calling on God to GUIDE their nation and reprove their leaders? No. Because it is used in political events the phrase usually means, "God is on our side and against our enemies." That's the sense I get and that to me seems to be where the REAL issue lies.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 4/25/2010 7:58 PM (GMT -6) | | I know that the term "Axis of Evil" started with Bush. I know it came into contemporary terminology after 9/11. I'm simply saying I don't know enough about current events to say anything about those nations that Bush gave that term to. What I'm saying is that the problem seems to me to be WAY deeper than any one president could do damage with. Reagan called the Soviet Union the "evil empire" in the 80's. Yes, there are atrocities that have been committed in those countries, but the "Axis of Evil" seems to be only a part of the problem. The real problem seems to lie in large part with America being redemptive, apocalyptic, and expansive. Look at this quote: "We are the nation of human progress, and who will, what can, set limits to our onward march?" Who said that? I'll put it to you this way. It wasn't anyone in this century or the last. Hmmm...
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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One Love
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| Posted 4/25/2010 8:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon. Homie. Do you understand that you seem to be doing everything except answering my question? I just want to know...
Given what is being said about HOW the term "Axis of Evil" was brought about, specifically Former President Bush's reframe of Frum's original given terminology...would you say that Former President Bush's choice was demonstrable activity that significantly reflects the 4 Scriptural Principles we are talking about? In short, was this truly CHRISTIAN political activity?
The Four Scriptural Principles:
1) Loving God completely
2) Loving all humans and oneself in light of loving God completely (also seen in 1 John 4:7-21)
3) Seeing all humans as "the least of these" (per Jesus) in loving God, one's neighbor, and oneself
4) Opposing self-exaltation or self-glorification of any type (per Jesus' character)
I feel like this is clear enough. It's a STRAIGHTFORWARD question. Do you think the "Axis of Evil" activity was appropriate CHRISTIAN political activity, per the 4 Principles above? I would understand this as SECULAR political activity...I'm not so sure about CHRISTIAN.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 4/25/2010 8:06:58 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 4/25/2010 8:07 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree with you. No. I don't think it was. But I'm also saying that I get the feeling you think that calling these nations an "axis of evil" is unchristian and that if we went by those four principles that things would have been better. I'm saying that at the heart of the negation of those four principles is this national pride! But yeah...I agree with you.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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One Love
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| Posted 4/26/2010 12:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon:
I'm saying that at the heart of the negation of those four principles is this national pride!
Then American sensibilities of that sort have a serious self-idolatry problem. Maybe national REPENTANCE is what we need. I mean, as long as America wants to see itself as some Judeo-Christian nation...
When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command the locust to devour the land, or send pestilence among my people, if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land. Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayer that is made in this place.
America needs to listen to this...
And yo, thanks for answering the "Axis" question. Really. 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 4/26/2010 1:01:48 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 4/26/2010 10:46 AM (GMT -6) | | You nailed it OL. The pride and idolatry of nationalism. Marshall says, of which I put up on my facebook status, ""In the Scriptures no one is described as an atheist; rather, if someone does not worship and serve the one true God, then he or she is expected, inevitably, to worship and serve another god." And to do justice in this world (and by "world" I mean global context) we need to smash our idols. Think of it like this. All human activity takes place in the world and it is always shaped and limited by the nature of that world. We can try to be gods but we will always be human beings in God's world. And so, human political activity never loses it's fundamental nature as a search for just ordering of society. I mean one can see this in revolutions. There may be an idolatrous committment to the state but they are also outcries at the suffering of the poor and against the oppression they suffered. In our context, left and right, despite their distortions are genuine attempts to formulate practical solutions to real problems. And so real, true, genuine repentance will require us to do something more than say a prayer. It will require us to get rid of our idolatry and seek justice among the nations. Not only between other nations but with ourselves and other nations. We have a long way to go.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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One Love
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| Posted 4/26/2010 6:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Interesting...and appropriate. From Andrew Murray's "Humility", Chapter 6: Humility in Daily Life
"He that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"-1 John 4:20.
What a solemn thought, that our love to God will be measured by our everyday intercourse with men and the love it displays; and that our love to God will be found to be a delusion, except was its truth is proved in standing the test of daily life with our fellowmen. It is even so with our humility. It is easy to think we humble ourselves before God: humility towards men will be the only sufficient proof that our humility before God is real; that humility has taken up its abode in us; and become our very nature; that we actually, like Christ, have made ourselves of no reputation. When in the presence of God lowliness of heart has become, not a posture we pray to Him, but the very spirit of our life, it will manifest itself in all our bearing towards our brethren. The lesson is one of deep import: the only humility that is really ours is not that which we try to show before God in prayer, but that which we carry with us, and carry out, in our ordinary conduct; the insignficances of daily life are the importances and the tests of eternity, because they prove what really is the spirit that possesses us. It is in our most unguarded moments that we really show and see what we are. To know the humble man, to know how the humble man behaves, you must follow him in the common course of daily life.
Is not this what Jesus taught? It was when the disciples disputed who should be greatest; when He saw how the Pharisees loved the chief place at feasts and the chief seats in the synagogues; when He had given them the example of washing their feet,- that He taught His lessons of humility. Humility before God is nothing if not proved in humility before men.
------------------------------------
If America generally cannot be considered "humble" in the eyes of the world community...then She is thoroughly self-deluded about being a Christian nation that is "one nation under God." It's more like the Danish Christendom that Kierkegaard was opposing in his day! 
Helpful song for me...
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 4/26/2010 6:07:51 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 4/26/2010 6:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey, I was just doing some stuff...googling and what not. I decided to google "United States" and "arrogance." I came up with this book title...
United States of Arrogance
by Paul F. Davis.
Product Description
The hypocrisy of U.S. democracy and self-righteous foreign policy is troubling the world. The U.S. Dept of Defense, the world's largest landlord, operates 737 military bases in 63 countries with military personnel in 156 nations. America is ready to strike any country to procure natural resources to extend its empire, keep the dollar afloat, and ensure its utopia. The military-industrial complex has put over 80,000 innocent Iraqis and 3,794 U.S. troops in an early grave, while putting itself in $9 trillion in debt. Alienating humanity and creating new terrorists daily, American foreign policy is a nightmare! Sexually abusing and raping in Abu Ghraib, using chemical white phosphorus (its own WMD) in Fallujah, destroying homes, ransacking mosques, and killing innocents across Iraq--America is winning the war of terror. Unprecedented soldier suicides attest to a disenchanted military. At home the FBI violates civil liberties, while the FDA approves deadly drugs. The CIA concocts phony "slam dunk" intel to go to war abroad and pursues narco-colonialism, while at home across the inner cities re-enslaving and imprisoning blacks for free labor with the consent of the DEA drug cartel. Meanwhile the U.S. Department of Justice plays politics and says all is well. History curiously repeats itself. While America bombed and burned Vietnam with napalm, Hoover's FBI was assassinating civil rights leaders such as Dr. Martin Luther King and Fred Hampton at home. The Patriot Act is setting the stage for much of the same. It's time we get some color in the White House to get real, feel, and heal the homeland. America is so "free" that its leaders can lie and kill without punishment, providing they wrap themselves with the flag and invoke the name of God calling it "good against evil." America's new "executive order" for the world and secretive agencies doing its dirty work are quickly diminishing its credibility and global influence. No government for the profiteers can also be for the people. Paul Davis is a patriot and prophetic voice to America and the nations of the world. Davis worked at Ground Zero in New York City the week of 9/11 and has traveled to over 50 countries and 6 continents serving in several war-torn nations. Raised by a U.S. Army Lt. Colonel, Davis is politically astute having both heart and backbone. Concerning the ill-conceived war in Iraq, he says: "Support the troops! Bring them home."
Has any one read this? It looks interesting to me.
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One Love
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| Posted 4/26/2010 6:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
Human beings HAVE to live together and there's no avoiding the adoption of SOME political shape and expression (economics, education, society, language, etc.). I get it. That's all got to work together for any group of people who constitute particular society. But I just don't at all get excited about perpetuating any particular version. Am I supposed to be?
I get excited over seeing a particular society structuring itself to maximize the following:
1) doing humanizing justice
2) loving kindness and compassion
3) living righteously (truthfully, peacefully)
4) walking with humility before others.
Looking at some of what Paul Davis seems to say, I wonder if I were to write him, and ask him to rate the U.S. Government on the 4 things above...I wonder how hard he'd laugh. 
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 4/26/2010 6:26:47 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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