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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > (No Subject)
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
|  Posted 6/1/2010 10:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 6/1/2010 11:42 PM (GMT -6) | | | For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
If there is anything that I like about liberation theology, it's about the idea that God is about personally working for freedom of the oppressed. And if you notice, that freedom wasn't just for freedom's sake. For people redeemed by God, it was freedom to participate with God to PROMOTE FREEDOM FOR OTHERS as they could (Jubilee, Mosiac Law rules about the "stranger" and "alien", etc) The problem is that we don't understand that ALL HUMANS ARE "OPPRESSED", whether they have the earthly upper hand or not. In this way, Jew/Gentile, Free/Slave, Rich/Poor, Male/Female relationships don't matter at all. All sinful humans are oppressed by sin. And Jesus (God) is the Liberator of the Oppressed. And to the degree that we are "in Christ" we participate in God's liberation of his imagebearers, and through them, his Creation.
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor. (ALL SINNERS!)
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives (ALL SINNERS!)
and recovering of sight to the blind, (ALL SINNERS!)
to set at liberty those who are oppressed, (ALL SINNERS!)
to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”
And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Post Edited (One Love) : 6/1/2010 11:52:57 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/2/2010 9:33 AM (GMT -6) | | If that is the case then don't you think its the case that we have this over concentration of concern for the poor such that we point our finger "to that over there" and say, "That's where the problem lies!"
The problem it seems from what guys like Koyzis and Skillen are saying is that this should really be viewed against a broader backdrop. There is A LOT of injustice (oppression) going on on all sorts of different levels much of it to do with the way we are governing ourselves. It truly is a governing problem.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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BBBCanada
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Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/4/2010 3:11 PM (GMT -6) | | In that blog Koyzis says:
With liberation theologians I confess that God has called us to care for the poor and to free the oppressed from the chains of oppression However, the boundary between oppressor and oppressed refuses to hold stil and trying to pin it down proves repeatedly to be in vain."
I have to say that some won't like the idea of watering down what Jesus meant by the term "poor" via broadening it to include everyone such as to say, "blessed are the poor in spirit." Either Jesus meant the actual poor or he didn't. Given that the Bible has an abundance of warnings against alienation and oppression by the rich against the poor itseems as if he had this crowd in mind.
My problem with this is with that boundary that Koysiz is referring to. That boundary, which is ever in motion means that anyone of us may be oppressed by someone or something, ie., institutions.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/5/2010 1:38 PM (GMT -6) | | See the thing is is that I find most of this talk about justice for the poor and oppressed to be a lot of people making themselves feel good because they think they are speaking or protesting against the establishment or status quo in favor of "the little guy." And of course the establishment usually is considered to be white anglo saxon male.
My point is is that injustice occurs on many levels and different ways not always related to the poor (or minorities). Which in turn means we have to enlarge our vision of who is actually oppressed by what or whom. Most of this talk about justice by "younger evangelicals" or "emergents" is very narrow in scope.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/5/2010 2:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Similitude: "If their view was correct, best I can tell, we should all give tell, we should all give until we're as poor as the poorest person we know. What possible argument could avoid such a conclusion?
Brandon: If you can't say ouch say amen. The important question to ask is not, "Should we help the poor and oppressed?" but rather, "Who is poor? Who is oppressed?" "Where does this take place at?" And "How can I fill the need?"
By the way. What this will do is resist the temptation to over-spiritualize the poor and the oppressed as well as given them tangibleness.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 6/5/2010 2:18:41 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/5/2010 3:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Think of it like this. What those who protest in favor of the poor and oppressed do is PRE-DEFINE who is poor and who is oppressed in the first place and then in turn work to allieviate those whom they think fits that definition. But justice goes back to what I've been saying for sometime now: When something in God's good creation is not given its proper due, injustice occurs. So the idea of justice needs to be grounded in the creational aspect of the biblical drama.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 6/5/2010 3:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon: If you can't say ouch say amen. The important question to ask is not, "Should we help the poor and oppressed?" but rather, "Who is poor? Who is oppressed?" "Where does this take place at?" And "How can I fill the need?"
Jeff: Of course. But asking a question is not answering it. So I don't know what you're getting at with the "ouch/amen" thang. We either CAN answer these questions or not. If you can, put it out there. But in the meanwhile, those who can't need to quit pretending they are making judgments others can comprehend. That only makes MORE divisions in human society which further deteriorates the human relationships which impel us to sympathy in the first place. Insulting peoples' intelligence with bald pontifications is of no help. That's all I"m saying.
All these people who make these over-simplified arguments you're talking about and then JUDGE people publicly by them are not helping matters, best I can tell. It's as though they think there is no intellectual element to moral adjudication--as if just pontificating judgments, per se, is going to magically guilt people into doing things their way. I've never seen it work that way in the long run. And it doesn't work well in the short run. Because most people can't be utterly anti-intellectual long term. Nor should they be.
Post Edited (Similtude) : 6/5/2010 3:36:49 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/8/2010 10:17 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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