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BBBCanada
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   Posted 7/22/2010 12:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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Similitude
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   Posted 8/1/2010 10:04 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Very interesting. The writer made some very good points.


 

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One Love
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   Posted 8/1/2010 5:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How do Baptism and the Eucharist fit into this motif?


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 8/2/2010 7:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't really understand your question. Are you simply talking about participation in these "activities" or something else?


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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Daniel M
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   Posted 8/2/2010 11:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
While the author might be trying to avoid this very thing, I think his method will lead to some very myopic group formation. I'm in agreement by in large about the status of the Church, but he doesn't really give any good reason to throw out "organized" Christianity. He just gives us good reasons to change the way "organized" Christianity functions and organizes itself. His last sentence suggests that his view would be getting back to the way things were, or were supposed to be. I just find it hard to understand when Paul was fairly explicit on the structure, and organization of various Churches. I'm not sure how to square this with Paul's emphasis on organization.

In throwing out all organized tradition (which is what he seems to suggest), we'd effectively have to throw out the bible, as the bible is the most significant product of organized church tradition. Yes, Church needs to be more than just Sundays, it needs to be a way of life, and yes, community needs to be grown by Christ. But those aren't really good reasons not to go to church on Sunday.

Post Edited (Daniel M) : 8/2/2010 11:54:14 AM (GMT-5)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 8/2/2010 3:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Well, I just posted a reply to you Daniel and it got lost in cyber space. How 'd you like that? Wow. I had to sign in again for some reason. Anyhoo...

Here's essentially what I said. First, I think that is what Jacobsen is trying to do. Trying to change the way organized Christianity functions or organizes itself---at the very least for himself--in his part of the world and any who think the way he does. He’s not necessarily trying to get rid of all organization. I think he also states that some will continue to go to churches that are more institutional and I don’t get the sense that he berates those believers on any level.  That is he wants to organize corporate gatherings in such a way that relationships are fostered and sustained.  Want to read a good article on related matters?  Right here:  Our Nomadic Existence: How Electronic Culture Shapes Community

Second, I don’t have a problem so much with church order as opposed to church government. Could it be that what you find hard to square with “Paul's emphasis on organization” is your interpretation of Paul on these matters? We’d probably have to delve into what you mean here.

The thing that concerns me the most is the “ahistoricalness” of all of this. Not so much presently ie., no connection with something larger like a denomination ie., AG but rather no seeming connection with the Church of the Ages. Everything is done without reference to its historical moorings.

Either way, I see the church as MORE charismatic than institutional. Yes, in a broad sense its institutional but it is fundamentally a charismatic community. That is, it exists by the grace (charis) of God and is built up by the gifts of grace (charismata) bestowed by the Spirit (that is what I mean by church order). Biblically speaking it is very hard to prove that the church is like a business corporation or university. Rather, it is structured like a human body--on the basis of life. At its most basic level the church is a community, not a hierarchy. An organism not a organization.

Apparently it is on this level that Greg seems to be having a problem: Missional Small Groups


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 8/2/2010 3:37:16 PM (GMT-5)

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Daniel M
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   Posted 8/4/2010 10:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Brandon,

B: Trying to change the way organized Christianity functions or organizes itself---at the very least for himself--in his part of the world and any who think the way he does. He’s not necessarily trying to get rid of all organization.

Daniel: I think you're right. And I'll agree with your later statement about the ahistoricalness of the discussion. Jacobsen says this : "Shouldn't we be committed to a local fellowship? That has been said so often today, that most of us assume it is in the Bible somewhere. I haven't found it yet. " He's looking for comments about being committed to local fellowship from a product of local, and extended, fellowship. That's kind of what Churches have always been.

Jacobsen also says this: "Scripture does encourage us to be devoted to one another not committed to an institution. Jesus indicated that whenever two or three people get together focused on him, they would experience the vitality of church life. " Now, I think we're just playing with semantics. I'm against Church government in the sense of hierarchy that is found in places like the EO and RCC. However, without some sort of leadership, and leadership need not imply hierarchy, merely organization, the Bible would have never been formed. Well, it might have been formed, but it would have looked very different. So, I think finding identity in the historicalness of the Church is a good and necessary thing, else we throw out some really, really, important stuff. And, of course, that identity needs to be sought with humbleness, because the Church has screwed up... a lot.

B: The thing that concerns me the most is the “ahistoricalness” of all of this. Not so much presently ie., no connection with something larger like a denomination ie., AG but rather no seeming connection with the Church of the Ages. Everything is done without reference to its historical moorings.

Daniel: I agree, and I think Jacobsen seems to loose this in his article. I think his article is playing over the semantics of "church" and defining it as a dynamic body rather then a place. I agree with him, for the most part. However, he generalizes. If there is anything we should thank the post-modernists for, it's the "essentialist fallacy". While they might employ it a bit too strongly, because I think there are potentially essential aspects to things, it is incredibly hard to generalize over large numbers. When Jacobsen says "organized Christianity" he is generalizing over Mennonites, Baptists, EO, RCC, non-denominational, etc etc.

B: Either way, I see the church as MORE charismatic than institutional.

Daniel: I agree.

B: Biblically speaking it is very hard to prove that the church is like a business corporation or university.

Daniel: You're entirely correct. If it is anything like either of those, we're screwed.

B: An organism not a organization.

Daniel: But an organism needs organization to survive, lest it collapse into some sort of protoplasm goo.
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Tom
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   Posted 8/4/2010 10:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

D: How do Baptism and the Eucharist fit into this motif?

 

B: I don't really understand your question. Are you simply talking about participation in these “activities” or something else?

 

T: D means something more than just the activity, because in his view Baptism and Communion are part of what ‘define’ the Church as the community of Christ. If the Church is not “a place to go to but a way of living in relationship to him and to other followers of his,” then the question is just what sorts of things comprise that ‘relating to other followers of his’? What constitutes unique Christian fellowship/community or unique Christian 'relating'? D believes Baptism and Communion are essential to Christian community, that we’re not “relating to one another” as followers of Jesus if we don’t practice these together. So his question is, how would those who no longer associate with any institutional church or denomination but only hang out with other believing friends at cafes, restaurants, cinemas, homes, etc., practice these? If everybody did what this author did, how would Baptism and Communion be practiced? Without addressing this, it looks like the author (in spite of his emphasis upon relations) is still very beholden to western individualistic values.

 

Tom


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Post Edited (Tom) : 8/4/2010 11:59:07 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 8/4/2010 11:17 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Exactly, Tom. Well said.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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One Love
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   Posted 8/4/2010 11:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Actually, I can speak to this directly from the WHC perspective...at least from my time there working with the small groups. I know for a fact that one of the major issues that WHC struggled with the missional group movement was the concepts of Baptism and Communion. Very practical issues:

1) Should the groups be able to baptize people in their groups who come to Christ? Who would supervise this? How would the theology of such be held in accountability? How could WHC be sure that the missional groups understood and embodies WHC's stance on what baptism was?

2) Should the groups be able to hold Communion in the groups? Same questions.
 
At the time, we simply didn't have the resources to provide the training and grounding necessary for this to be standard practice.   It was really a thorny issue...and I think it's one still.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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might-be-don
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   Posted 8/4/2010 11:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Doesn't your concern over Baptism and Communion revolve around the necessity of a "priest" to administor the rites ? Or, maybe it's necessary to have the candle lit so that the spirit will show up? Or, stained glass windows ?

Being that each of us individually are the priests, why not at the cafe, restaurants, cinemas, homes, etc.

I onced asked the "pastor" why the guitar player couldn't bless and pass out the bread and juice... he looked at me like I had two heads.

peace, don


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One Love
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   Posted 8/4/2010 12:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What you are saying demonstrates the issue, MBD. There are so many different perspectives on and interpretations of what Baptism and Communion mean...it's a daunting task to make sure that missional groups (who arguably would be interacting with people from many different backgrounds) would be UNIFIED in their understanding of the sacraments so that the priesthood of all believers would be effective and NOT defaulting to western individualistic tendencies.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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Tom
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   Posted 8/4/2010 12:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think the question revolves around the concern of spiritual authority and accountability in maintaining our unique identity as a Christian community. And there is no one easy answer. But here's the thing, Don, it doens't seem that abandoning all 'institutional' expression of that community secures true Christian identity on a corportate level, and you've demonstrated it. How are you and your friends (who agree that since all believers are a kingdom of priests, all can baptize new believers and all can administer/officiate the elements) going to "relate as the one body of Christ" to other believers who take a different view on these questions? Even if both groups reject institutionalized expressions of the Church, how are they going to realize Christian unity on these issues? How are they going to RELATE as one? I don't see that it becomes that much easier just because they've eschewed institutional forms for informal social networks.

Tom


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Post Edited (Tom) : 8/4/2010 7:04:52 PM (GMT-5)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 8/4/2010 6:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, I agree with that.  You can't really call it a "church" per se if all you are going to go on is "relationship." I think Jacobsen goes too far at that point. However, I don't see why these practices can't take place within say a corporate gathering where the intention is to worship as a church.  So say a group of people meet in someone's house.  I don't see these practices being a problem for this group.

Also, concerning your response to MBD, are you saying that there needs to be doctrinal unity on what these things mean before you can meet as a church?


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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Tom
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   Posted 8/4/2010 7:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree baptism and communion can occur in a home (or cafe, or school, or backyard). The 'home' is where those were practiced for generations of early believers. It's not a geography for me.

Tom


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One Love
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   Posted 8/4/2010 7:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Agreed, Tom. Locality is not the issue here. It's a matter of coherence in practice and belief. Example: Does a group use grape juice or wine for Communion? Think it's not a big issue for some? Think again. And that's just ONE issue.


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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Tom
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   Posted 8/4/2010 8:20 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D: Coherence in practice and belief.

T: Right you are. It's about defining and maintaining communal identity in Christ. And that all hangs on shared practice and belief.

T


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BBBCanada
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   Posted 8/4/2010 8:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmmm...why is that an issue? Its not like you have people in an institutional setting in which that is agreed upon. Even "Mr. Pizza and a can of coke for communion" can see that! LOL! Baptism. Symbol or Presence of Christ in the elements? People will differ on these things even within the same congregation. Doesn't stop them from participating in these practices together.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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Tom
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   Posted 8/4/2010 9:33 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
But it does stop them from participating in these practices together. I can't break bread with a Catholic. And Eastern Orthodox wouldn't break bread with a Lutheran, etc., and on and on. What defines these groups is a core set of shared beliefs and practices. That's what makes them EO or RC or Lutheran or Baptist.

And to the extent that people in a single congregation disagree on what baptism or communion really means, to that extent they're not "participating in it together." One thinks he's doing X and the other thinks she's doing Y by means of the same elements. But they don't view themselves as doing the same thing. That's sad.

Tom


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BBBCanada
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   Posted 8/4/2010 10:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You can't break bread with a Catholic???  Of course you are going to disagree on what communion is going to mean but I don't understand why you couldn't walk into a Catholic Church and to take it "in good faith," meaning under your understanding.  Maybe THEY may not let you because you have to go through their catechism and enter the church first, otherwise, I don't see why this should stop you.  Let me give you an example.
 
Years ago, I walked into a Catholic church and they served me communion.  Though I did not take it under the understanding of transubstaniation I did take it believing that I was joining my brothers and sisters at a holy table.  Though my belief about communion, I feel, was flawed at the time, nowadays I'm of the belief that even unbelievers can come to the table of which I first took seriously via reading a book on the subject by an Anglican priest.
 
When I go into a church that believes that you have to be a Christian and make a mental assent to faith, I may understand it differently, but I still  celebrate with them that they are no less initiated into the faith.
 
Yes, there are shared beliefs and practices that define you, but they don't necessarily have to stop you from having genuine fellowship together.  By the way, failed to link this:  What Is a Church? 

Interestingly, it was put up a few days ago.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 8/4/2010 10:26:18 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 8/4/2010 11:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Brandon: You can't break bread with a Catholic? Of course you are going to disagree on what communion is going to mean but I don't understand why you couldn't walk into a Catholic Church and to take it "in good faith," meaning under your understanding.

 

Tom: Sure, I could go down front in a Catholic church and go through the motions, pretending to be a Catholic, and just attribute my meaning to those motions instead of their meaning. But this is the problem—I would not be ‘relating’ to them in authentic Christian fellowship by doing so because it’s less than honest.

 

It sounds like you think authentic Christian fellowship is participated in and reflected in some other action, something other than communion and baptism for example, maybe just in the fact that we're able to ignore the different meanings we give to these crucial acts Christ gave us. But then what actions do we fundamentally agree upon so that they positively express our identity, something we MEAN togehter and in meaning the same thing ARE one? If there are none, then our unity is just realized through a series of denials and negations--me denying your meaning of an action while giving it my meaning, etc. But then we'd be pretending to think or believe or intend this or that for the sake of relating authentically, and isn't that just the denial of authentic unity?

 

What kind of relating are we doing if I have essentially to hide or even lie about the meaning of the very acts we both participate in and claim express our unity in Christ? That kind of thing can’t be grounds for authentic Christian fellowship. Maybe we’re just thinking of authentic Christian community and identity differently, but in my view communion and baptism function as grounds and expression of Christian identity precisely because we mean the same thing by the act. If we don’t mean the same thing, then to that extent our identity is compromised and relationship undermined. That doesn’t mean God doesn’t consider us both his children. It doesn’t have to mean we don’t consider each other children of God. It just means that we can’t experience and reflect this unity concretely in the terms Christ set aside to express and foster it as an act of worship AS the body of Christ.

 

Tom


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Post Edited (Tom) : 8/4/2010 11:43:51 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 8/5/2010 12:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Part of my point in all this also is that while I respect people who thoughtfully conclude that their pursuit of authentic Christian community must exclude certain places and formats (church buildings associated with denominations, etc.), I think the problems they seek to escape all potentially (and some actually) plague the other non-institutional formats in which they now seek to find authentic Christian community. The real problems that tend to divide Christians aren't avoided by abandoning institutional formats. I could be wrong, but that's where I am.

I mean, if somebody is really seeking authentic Christian community--where they hold others accountable and are held accountable, where they are able to engage honestly in communion and baptism as well as catechism/discipleship, enjoy worship with other believers and also exercise their gifts, where they discipline one another (all this and more)--outside the walls of an institutional church, fine. But I can't believe that if they're really engaging in these activities they'll escape the problems and headaches that prompted them to leave the institutional church in the first place: hypocrisy, spiritual abuses on the part of leaders and others, power struggles, relational complications, other corruptions, etc.

Tom


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Post Edited (Tom) : 8/5/2010 10:27:41 AM (GMT-5)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 8/5/2010 11:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Brandon:  OK.  This is not about misleading or lying or anything like that.  Rather its about participation in the Body of Christ and participating "in Christ."  In other words, unity is found not in assenting to uniform belief but in the very act itself.  You are not simply going through a set of motions.  The meaning will be whatever you have brought to the table but the very act of recieving communion has meaning in itself as well.  So its not as if, as you say, you are "not relating because you are being less than honest."  Historically, as Protestants, we understand there to be two sacraments, so those OUGHT to be the two things that bring us together in unity.  Not in applied meanings but in the acts themselves.  In what ACTUALLY TAKES PLACE in the act. Again, think about communion, for example, as an open table.  Unbelievers are invited.  They may bring a flawed or skewed meaning to the event.  Either way we are PROCLAIMING Christ's death (should this also be seen as the possible limits of Christian identity?). Something is going on there.  Something is actually taking place. 

Tom: But I can't believe that if they're really BEING the church in this way they'll escape the problems and headaches that prompted them to leave the institutional church: hypocrisy, spiritual abuses on the part of leadership, other corruptions, etc., because those same issues will attend to their less formal, non-institutional format.

Well shouldn't that tell you right there that uniformity of belief is not what creates unity or community?  I like what Wyndy Corbin Reuschling says in her book about evangelica ethics but can be applied to the sacraments:

The Limits of Personal Virtue Ethics

Aristotle's theory of virtue ethics is this: The acquisition of specific virtues, or those qualities that make a person good, enables one to achieve a life of happiness, which is the end and substance of the moral life. Virtues are both internal goods and qualities that enable us to realize what makes for a life of well-being and happiness. Aristotle's theory was developed in the context of the ancient Greek city as the polis, which the virtuous citizen was to serve. This context is necessary for understanding salient features of Aristotle's theory, features that share some common affiliation with Christian morality yet also diverge in significant ways.

Aristotle's theory and Christian morality share a belief in the social nature of human beings. Human well-being and flourishing occur in various relationships where life is shared and common goods are realized. For Aristotle these relationships are friendships with people like us. He believed that it was with people "like us"—of the same social rank, class, educational background, and gender—that our virtues would be formed. For Christians the most fundamental relationships, where the moral life is formed, are with the Triune God and the kingdom community of the church. Our relationship with the Triune God is marked by its difference. A fundamental assertion of Christian faith is that the triune God is not like us. What enables this divine relationship to be morally forming is the fact that we need a God who is not like us, whose virtue and moral goodness actually reveal our lack, and whose power makes possible our participation in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:3-11). It is in light of God's difference from us that we understand our shortcomings and moral failures. The same holds true for the community of the church. The last thing I need is another person "like me." It is in these differences—those between God and us, and in the diversity of God's people—that I am able to see my limitations and the ways they produce moral myopia. I can accept these differences as epistemological gifts that enable me to see what I cannot or will not see on my own.

Those differences are going to include more than just personal morality or virtue.  It seems obvious, from what she is saying that those differences will include doctrinal positions on things.  See what I'm saying?

 


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Post Edited (BBBCanada) : 8/5/2010 11:33:53 AM (GMT-5)

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might-be-don
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   Posted 8/5/2010 12:20 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom says, " ...escape the problems and headaches that prompted them to leave the institutional church in the first place...".

Yes, like "death and taxes", these will be with us always.

It would seem that throwing out the "sacraments" would bring us closer to unity! We could do what Jesus suggested... whenever you eat, think about Me.

peace, don


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/5/2010 10:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In actuality all that bureaurocracy, like fasting, confessions, listening to sermons--and stuff--was there because the day after one officially became a christuan..the next day one likely became a martyr

Whiners can apply next season instead.


(o)

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