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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/5/2012 1:39 PM (GMT -6)

Story here.

Question: Do you think this is "unchristian" of this person to wear this shirt? For exmaple, is he expressing demeaning words to other people, religions, etc? Is this calling people "losers?" Is it an anti-non Christian msg? Or are some people so offended by any sentiment that may point toward there being a "problem" at all ie., we're sinners, our lives are in despair without Jesus, etc?

Would love to get your opinions on this.

Brandon

Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/5/2012 3:30 PM (GMT -6)

It can't be unChristian to wear the shirt. What's unChristian is a failure to love, and wearing the shirt isn't itself a failure of love. Not wearing it could, arguably, be a failure of love...it all depends on what the Spirit is asking him to do. But there's no 'legislating' what's right and wrong in such situations. We're to speak the truth in love.

I wonder if it would have helped those who oppose him wearing the shirt had his shirt simply quoted any number of Bible verses that say essentially the same thing? Maybe "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'," or "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." How would folks object to that?

Tom

"The aesthetic value the world has for God is in expressing, not constituting, the aesthetic value God eternally finds within Godself." Greg Boyd

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 5/5/2012 4:19 PM (GMT -6)

There are very few beliefs that would not seem offensive to some people in some contexts. The rule is hard to apply objectively.

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/5/2012 7:59 PM (GMT -6)

Right. That is what I'm saying Tommy. It seems like anyone could be offended at the same thing said a slightly different (nicer?) way. And it is that that I find bothersome. Whether he senses the Spirit telling him to wear the shirt or not is beside the point of whether he has the civil right to do so.

Brandon

Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/5/2012 9:20 PM (GMT -6)

Canadians. Ha!

T

"The aesthetic value the world has for God is in expressing, not constituting, the aesthetic value God eternally finds within Godself." Greg Boyd

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/7/2012 1:47 PM (GMT -6)

I guess the biggest thing I'm try to nail on the head is this issue of smugness, exclusivity, inclusivity, tolerance and religious freedom. It just seems to me that no matter how inclusive a Christian will be, working that into their theololgy of religions, people will still find any amount of exclusivity abhorent. Even on these boards with EUR, and a one story view of creation, that is ALL STILL INTOLERABLE for some folk.

Brandon

Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 5/8/2012 8:05 AM (GMT -6)

Think about it. You're a non-Christian teenager and you're being "told" by your school mate that your life is a waste. Don't you think that's unnecessarily disrupting in a junior or high school environment? Is that what Christians are called to do? Why would we be told to submit to authorities and then choose this as our grounds of disobedience?

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/8/2012 10:05 AM (GMT -6)

Yes. I don't think its the best way to present the Gospel msg but he still has a right to wear something of a religious nature. My problem is that if he put John 14:6 up it would sound just as smug and its the idea of any level of exclusivity that others find abhorent that I'm having difficulty with.

Even on these boards, as "inclusive" as we are, we are still exclusive. We still say when it comes to EUR that Jesus is the way because we acknowledge Christ salvific work in EUR. Its as D said some years ago, evangelical universalism is not one of the secularized versions where everybody makes it in regardless of Christ, except maybe those really bad folk. I tend to think that exclusivity, no matter what the level is going to be viewed as smug and intolerable.

Brandon

Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 5/8/2012 4:17 PM (GMT -6)

B: I tend to think that exclusivity, no matter what the level is going to be viewed as smug and intolerable.

J: Me too. But there are some environments that exist for ends to which saying someone's life is a waste is not conducive. I think the best way to maintain societal civility over the long run is to acquiesce where it seems civily appropriate to (which is what I think Christ's comments about "eye for an eye" are saying) and to fight legally when fair standards are breached. I see no virtue in NOT using the legal system when fairness is best attained by it. In this case, I don't think the student should have ever gone there. There are ways to express one's love and adoration for Christ without gratuitously provoking emotions that are non-conducive to civility.

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/9/2012 11:22 AM (GMT -6)

I think this is what Tommy and I are saying. There are appropriate an inappropriate ways of representing your religion in the public square. There are also some that are questionable. They are not uncivil but they are neither the best way to represent. I wouldn't say his t-shirt was uncivil but neither do I think it the best way to present his msg. What I believe Tommy and I are saying is that had he simply put John 14:6 on his shirt someone, somewhere would have thought this smug and uncivil. In other words, no matter how appropriate, there is a certain modern allergy to exclusivity on any level. No matter how appropriate, someone, somewhere would have found it inappropriate.

Brandon

Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 5/9/2012 11:32 AM (GMT -6)

Heck, you could have a shirt that simply says "God is Love" and nothing more...and SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE would hate on that.

So...

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/9/2012 12:07 PM (GMT -6)

LOL! Just made this: http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3p7g69/

Brandon

Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 5/9/2012 7:38 PM (GMT -6)

You're right, Brandon. But isn't the same true of Jewish and Muslim beliefs? Aren't they exclusive? So for me, the issue is fairness with whatever bar they set. Now, if it gets to where Christians aren't permitted to answer when asked seemingly sincere questions, that's altogether different. Then you suffer the consequences of speaking truth in love to one who, for all you know, may have a sincere question about Christianity or schedule a time after school to discuss it.

Post Edited (Similitude) : 5/9/2012 8:17:55 PM (GMT-5)

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/10/2012 1:48 AM (GMT -6)

I'm saying that in the public school where diversity exists, then the nature of that school should be reflected as much as possible. So if there are Muslims, Jewish, atheist, etc, persons, then the school should reflect that as much as possible.

Brandon

Since love grows within you, so beauty grows. For love is the beauty of the soul.--Saint Augustine

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 5/10/2012 7:26 AM (GMT -6)

Me too. That's because that kind of civility is more CONDUCIVE to the ends OF school.

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