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Originally posted by spenlake

Sparkenheart,

The accurate quote of what I stated was that if you followed the example AND believed the teachings of Zoroaster, the Dali Lama and Gandhi (all of whom were not Christians) then you would be damned. If you just followed their peaceful example, I would probably enjoy living in the house next to you as your neighbor.

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Regarding the quote which you label "God's wrath" I never even came close to implying that we ever inflicted anything on anybody else. In each example that I gave, we were on the receiving end of God's actions. In addition, I disagree with your label of "God's wrath." The actions were actions of love. They would have been dead if it had been the wrath of God. Jesus was calling all men (even all of these men) to repent from their actions. He didn't kill them but gave them time to repent of their evil. Who knows? Perhaps some of these very people were the ones that heard Peter's sermon in Acts 2 and repented and lived, escaping the wrath of God to come. That is why I stated, "Would we be in a postion to perceive these actions as the love of God?" I believe that they were, love demonstrated by our Savior.

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• ORTHODOX PSYCHOTHERAPY www.pelagia.org/htm/b02.en.orthodox_psychotherapy.00.htm


• THE ILLNESS AND CURE OF THE SOUL IN THE ORTHODOX TRADITION www.pelagia.org/htm/b05.en.the_illness_and_cure_of_the_soul.00.htm


• ORTHODOX SPIRITUALITY www.pelagia.org/htm/b15.en.orthodox_spirituality.00.htm


• A VISUAL CATECHISM OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH www.pelagia.org/htm/b33.en.a_visual_catechism.00.htm


• THE MIND OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH www.pelagia.org/htm/b12.en.the_mind_of_the_orthodox_church.00.htm


• THE PERSON IN THE ORTHODOX TRADITION www.pelagia.org/htm/b23.en.the_person_in_the_orthodox_tradition.00.htm

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Hesychasm: Orthodox Spirituality Compared and Constrasted with Other Religious Traditions
Dr. Thomas Mether

strannik.com/watchful_gate/hesychasm_compared.html

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Originally posted by spenlake

Spark takes the quote that I cited from page 105 of the book (my own comments in parentheses) and asks me for an example.
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"Our works themselves (meaning "fruit" of love, etc.) can become another idolatrous source of life. Far from feeding us, they make us only more hungry. Far from restoring us, they make us only more tired.
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Spark says: I would still like an example please.

Because this is a quote from Dr. Boyd, I will let him give his own example.

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Originally posted by spenlake

I even like the icons, though I don't think we would be in harmony to the extent we considered them inspired.

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Originally posted by spenlake

POW,

I knew you would reply in something like this fashion. That is why I chose "extent" in my phrase. I think that it would be stating too much to say that God is absent from all icons as much as it is going too far to state that God is absent from the hymns. To the extent either one reflect and restate the objective revealed and inspired Word of God given to us in the Scriptures, to that extent they are valid. The source of their authority is found and rests only in the Scriptures. I think that you would agree with me on that.

Getting back to the theme of this thread, this authority of the Scriptures is exactly what is lacking with the words of the spirit-guide "Jesus" in the story of Dr. Boyd. The spirit-guide "Jesus" speaks words that the Jesus of the Scriptures wouldn't speak. Who are we to believe?

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Originally posted by spenlake

POW,

Spirit guide is a defined term in Eastern mysticism. Boyd references this on page 131. Boyd attempts to deflect criticism of his mysticism by implying that his own "spiritual Jesus" isn't a spirit guide that the Eastern religions use because he is "Jesus" and he visualizes him in his imagination and is instructed and healed by Him. I am implying that it is. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck...

On page 131 Dr. Boyd says, "Since the late sixties, millions of people in the West have come to endorse elements of Eastern religion, including pantheism, and meditation techniques, and to practice shamanistic forms of visualization....Sometimes people are encouraged to visualize a spiritual guide in their imagination and allow this guide to instruct them or heal them."

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Originally posted by spenlake
I put some legitimately weird ideas here for discussion. Why doesn't anybody "whack" them? I really am interested in Scriptural "whacks" and why you believe them to be feeble.

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O.K. I'll use your "technique".

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The gospel is the source of truth and life.

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Wrong. Jesus is the source of truth and life. The gospel is only the story of Jesus.

Romans 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

You're worshipping the creature, the gospel, as your source of life, NOT the Creator.

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Laika,

When I stated that I had a "weird" idea I wasn't speaking of the idea that I have concerning my belief that the gospel is the only way to life and truth. I would like to think that you understood this. I have a weird idea concerning the exegesis of Genesis 6:3 and its implications for an objective revelation. The gospel is not dependent on this idea, as John makes it extremely clear that the incarnation of the Word of God was objective and in the flesh.

Ignoring the context of my request you take the following statement instead, implying that I believe it to be weird, which I do not.
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Statement of Spen: The gospel is the source of truth and life.
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Laika's statement regarding Spen's claim that the gospel is the source of life and truth.
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Wrong. Jesus is the source of truth and life. The gospel is only the story of Jesus.
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Laika quotes Romans 1:25 in support of this, "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

Lastly, Laika accuses Spen of idolatry, a serious sin indeed.

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You're worshipping the creature, the gospel, as your source of life, NOT the Creator.
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I never stated that the gospel WAS Jesus, but that the source of truth and life. It is the source because it is about Jesus who IS the "way the truth and the life." If not for men and their writings that we now have in Scriptures, we would not know of this objective Jesus. The gospel is more than a story, it is a factual historical record. This record is not the "common revelation" spoken of in Romans. Without men speaking it in words, writing, and possibly even in icons/visual communications (I am going to be blasted for saying it), we would not know it. Thus the historical record of objective fact is definitely the only source of truth and life because that is the only way that you can learn of Him. This is why it was so important and why it was preached. God entrusted this message to men to communicate to the world. The Holy Spirit inspired men to communicate it to other men. While an angel visited Cornelius, it was a man, Peter, that brought the gospel and through believing it Gentiles found truth and life. There is no other source of life and truth but the gospel, the historic record that the Holy Spirit makes alive - finding Truth and Life in the objective Jesus.

The following passages demonstrate the importance of the Objective Historical Gospel.

Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”"

Romans 16:25, "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;"

1 Co 4:3, "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

Eph 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory."

Col 1:21, "And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister"

2 Thess 2:14, "It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

1 Tim 1:8, "Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher."

1 Peter 4:6, "For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God."

1 Peter 4:17, "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?"

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Originally posted by spenlake

Laika,

When I stated that I had a "weird" idea I wasn't speaking of the idea that I have concerning my belief that the gospel is the only way to life and truth. I would like to think that you understood this.
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I did. I was just using your "technique". I'm trying to point something out to you.

The cartoon was an attempt as well. You just don't get it.

When you say the gospel has the power of life, I know what you mean. I understand the reasoning behind it, the gospel message if accepted and applied to lives has the power of life. So I applied your "technique" of ignoring the meaning behind it and ONLY taking it at it's shallow surface value and "found" a verse that refuted you. Your technique.

Thus when Boyd talks about a young child being told he's "bad" and later having a healing by having Jesus tell him he's "good" you ignore the entire context and meaning of what is going on. And you moronically turn this into a theological discussion of sinful nature, pulling out some unrelated verses about man's developed sinful nature.

Did you even "get" the joke of the cartoon? You NEVER call your children "good" because that is giving them righteousness outside of Jesus' salvic work? Were your kids "bad" before they believed in Jesus, did you constantly reprimand them "BAD BOY", "BAD GIRL" because outside of Christ they are "lost and deserving of wrath"?

Don't you see how moronic and harmful that can be?

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Laika,

I appreciate your attempts to help me. You tell me, "Thus when Boyd talks about a young child being told he's "bad" and later having a healing by having Jesus tell him he's "good" you ignore the entire context and meaning of what is going on." I believe that you are intentionally ignoring the larger meaning behind it and ONLY taking it at it's shallow surface value of "feeling." You are overlooking the basic premise that Dr. Boyd is teaching us a method to find comfort in an imaginary false historical record that he is claiming is inspired. Forget the good and bad boys for a minute and look at the larger context. I am being asked to "believe" and experience this false so much that it becomes more real than the real. It is in this that he promises me freedom.

Intentionally convincing myself to believe in what is false isn't moronic, but delusionary. The definition of delusion is a fixed false belief held in spite of evidence to the contrary. Dr. Boyd is claiming that this is not delusion because the inspired internal "reality" is greater evidence than the objective external event that was witnessed by his sisters. Bunk. This is not the objective truth of the gospel nor the objective revelation of Christ.

I believe that the "truth" means objectively true. Your doctor is teaching one that he acknowledges is objectively false but is real anyways because he has experienced it. This is what delusion looks like. Sincere, heart-warming and comforting delusion. The delusion doesn't revolve around good or bad boys but history that is being re-invented and believed for comfort - in the name of God.

Christianity is not "hiding from facts through delusion," although that is what the pagans accuse us of. Christianity is standing firm on the promise of God, given objectively with words and proved by the resurrection, in the face of acknowledged real tribulations and experienced sin and real pain. We are not teaching people to become truth escape artists or delusionary mystics - unlike the false teachings of this book.

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Originally posted by spenlake

This thread is on Dr. Boyd's new book, and in this book he takes us from a true/real historical account that was witnessed by his sisters to a spiritual experience of “real” that has no witnesses but himself.

Page 117: “No, Greggie is a bad boy, and bad boys don’t get presents.”

Becomes,

Page 121: “But this time, instead of seeing the angry wrinkled face of my grandmother, I saw the radiant, joyful face of Jesus. He leaned over the bag and peeked in with a wildly excited smile on his face. Instead of hearing my grandmother say, ‘No, Greggie is a bad boy,’ I heard Jesus exclaim, ‘Oh, of course Greggie gets a present! He is such a good boy!’ He rubbed my head vigorously as he said, ‘It’s a very special gift. That’s why I saved it for last.’ I began hopping and flapping my arms even more excited than before as I looked again into the paper sack. And there I saw a huge red toy airplane.”

The true account of history has become a false “real” account inspired by spirits that Dr. Boyd finds freedom and comfort in believing as “true.” This brings to mind a passage from 2 Thess 2:11:

"because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false"

Dr. Boyd finds forgiveness for his grandmother in a false story inspired by spirits. If we examine the story closer and the message that this “spiritual Jesus” speaks, how does it compare with the words of the real Jesus that we have in black and white? Dr. Boyd’s imagined Jesus calls an unsaved sinner “good” and Dr. Boyd find this comforting. The real man Jesus said this in Matthew 19:16,

“Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

And claims His being good makes Him God in Mark 10:17 and Luke 18:18, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.”

Does the Jesus that we know in the Bible change and call unsaved sinners “good” to comfort them. Or, is it possible that this is another Jesus and another spirit that brings Dr. Boyd comfort in a lie that he desires to believe because the truth isn’t loved?

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After trying everything from Eastern mysticism (combined with drug experimentation) to rank atheism (the "faith" my father adopted, I ended up embracing Christ at the age of seventeen.

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