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Tiggers
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 219
| Posted 4/2/2004 11:50 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hey C.Vers,
I would like to dedicate a thread to discussing Doc’s latest book. Now, I admit it, using imaginative prayer is quiet a new venture for me, and if I’m honest a bit scary to think about. My first thoughts before even reading the introduction are one’s of reservation and skepticism, i.e., if I start using my imagination in prayer (e.g., meeting Jesus (or at least my idea of Jesus) in a nonexistent place filled with color, textures, & feelings all brought about by my imagination) I wonder if I will actually be mirroring marred images of the real thing; furthermore, if they are marred…couldn’t I be led astray? Nevertheless, here goes…
Discussing the Doc’s…
Seeing is Believing: Experience Jesus through Imaginative Prayer
The Introduction
Ok, I definitely relate to Lateffa at times, i.e., often “fueling our faith with mere belief and sheer commitment” (11). I don’t know about you all, but I never hear God speak through an audible voice and I’ve never seen visions like the prophets…so is God silent in this dispensation? Have you all ever asked where God was at a particular time in your life?
I found this proclamation by the Doc to be very thought provoking, that is, “it’s not so much what we intellectually believe is true that impacts us; it’s what we experience as real” (12). Any comments…
Neil T. Anderson comes across saying that our beliefs (e.g., I’m a saint/child of God, etc.) will effect the way we act positively, i.e., we will more easily experience God in contrast to believing say that I’m a sinner, which will effect the way we act negatively. You see, if we intellectually believe that we are a sinner then are actions will follow, or it will be that much easier to sin. So my point is what really comes first?
Is it really possible to experience Jesus “face to face” with the same intimacy and realness that a husband and wife share? I don’t know if I’ve truly just rested in Jesus, and if I would within my imagination…well, would it be the true face or my mirrored image?
I will be honest, I want to rest in Jesus through my imagination, but I’m feeling cautious…check this out,
“They may picture Jesus in their minds when they talk to hem. They may hear Jesus responding to their words when they pray. They may see with the mind’s eye the person they’re praying for and perhaps imaginatively signify that the person being prayed for is benefiting form the prayer…In all cases these people vividly and concretely enter into an imaginative world that they experience as real. They somehow have hit on the secret of opening the imagination to the Holy Spirit to make the things of God real to them” (15).
Why do I say check this out…well, because in some ways it truly seems that I’m trying to leave the real world and enter the matrix (the unreal world, i.e., imagination); rather than, enter the real world and escape the matrix…anyone follow me?
Now, I’m not trying to be down on this book, but I feel before we embark, questions should be asked as lame as some of mine might be, sorry. Well, gotta go, and hope people chime in because I always love to learn, truly!
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers 
“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie). | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/4/2004 9:36 PM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by Tiggers
Hey C.Vers,
(Tiggers) Have you all ever asked where God was at a particular time in your life?
(Jo-Anne) I have and this is what brought me to open theism. It was at a point in my life of intense suffering as a child and asking where God was at that time (a counsellor told me to ask Him that). I could not bear the thought that He was there but did nothing to prevent what was happening - that the all knowing, all loving, all powerful God just "watched." Since He was in my classical traditional view - all powerful, had exhaustive control over everything, then He couldn't have been all loving or all good or He would have stopped what was happening to me...hence my discovery of open theism (which has changed my relationship with the Father.
(Tiggers) I found this proclamation by the Doc to be very thought provoking, that is, “it’s not so much what we intellectually believe is true that impacts us; it’s what we experience as real” (12). Any comments…
(Jo-Anne) I love this. We are who Christ says we are in Him. We are, at the moment of rebirth, a new creation. We need to know who we are in Christ and walk in it. We need to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. We are who we are because He is who He is. We don't believe it always or don't live like we believe it.
(Tiggers) Neil T. Anderson comes across saying that our beliefs (e.g., I’m a saint/child of God, etc.) will effect the way we act positively, i.e., we will more easily experience God in contrast to believing say that I’m a sinner, which will effect the way we act negatively. You see, if we intellectually believe that we are a sinner then are actions will follow, or it will be that much easier to sin. So my point is what really comes first?
(Jo-Anne) We are exhorted (in the N.T.) to behave a certain way because of who we are in Him. It is not just who we are positionally but who we actually are. We are to "walk in the light as He is in the light." We are to "be holy as He is holy" "If any man be in Christ, He is a new Creation...old things are passed away..."
(Tiggers) Is it really possible to experience Jesus “face to face” with the same intimacy and realness that a husband and wife share? I don’t know if I’ve truly just rested in Jesus, and if I would within my imagination…well, would it be the true face or my mirrored image?
(Jo-Anne) I believe we (myself included) barely scratch the surface as far as intimacy with the Father. The husband/wife relationship is the closest intimacy humanly speaking to intimacy with the Father. No other relationship comes close (or is supposed to anyway). Song of Songs speaks of this.
(Tiggers) I will be honest, I want to rest in Jesus through my imagination, but I’m feeling cautious…check this out,
“They may picture Jesus in their minds when they talk to hem. They may hear Jesus responding to their words when they pray. They may see with the mind’s eye the person they’re praying for and perhaps imaginatively signify that the person being prayed for is benefiting form the prayer…In all cases these people vividly and concretely enter into an imaginative world that they experience as real. They somehow have hit on the secret of opening the imagination to the Holy Spirit to make the things of God real to them” (15).
(Jo-Anne) I know! I'm excited about learning more. In the past two years I have learned to spend more time listening and less time talking, more time waiting. I have also learned to combine my prayer times with praise (piano playing), journalling, writing prose and poetry, reading scripture, talking and listening...sometimes sitting, standing under the stars, driving, lying down. I have learned what a creatively sovereign Lord we have and am more creative in how I worship Him and how I pray. I guess if you think about the ways that a husband and wife communicate it is through much more than talking.
(Tiggers) Why do I say check this out…well, because in some ways it truly seems that I’m trying to leave the real world and enter the matrix (the unreal world, i.e., imagination); rather than, enter the real world and escape the matrix…anyone follow me?
(Jo-Anne) Which is the real world? If it were just imagination then it would be like an escape - but if it is Holy Spirit inspired imagination...then it is very real. Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane showed a reality that we seldom see in "The Passion" It showed Jesus in intense, emotional communication with the Father...walking, then face first in the dust and it showed the spiritual battle that was taking place at the same time. That was reality. But I know what you're saying. I think the key is in being guided by the Holy Spirit so we are not deceived by the enemy.
"Nite and God Bless
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/5/2004 12:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
(Tiggers) Have you all ever asked where God was at a particular time in your life?
(Jo-Anne) I have and this is what brought me to open theism. It was at a point in my life of intense suffering as a child and asking where God was at that time (a counsellor told me to ask Him that). I could not bear the thought that He was there but did nothing to prevent what was happening - that the all knowing, all loving, all powerful God just "watched." Since He was in my classical traditional view - all powerful, had exhaustive control over everything, then He couldn't have been all loving or all good or He would have stopped what was happening to me...hence my discovery of open theism (which has changed my relationship with the Father.
I agree. The only way I can understand God being all loving is through open theism. If I had a belief that God willed tragedy in my life or the lives of others I could not find the ALL in the loving image of God. I know of so many people who have been hurt through the "God willed the tragedy for your good" explanation.... I think predestination is Satan's way of blinding the believer similarly to how the Pharisee's were blinded by the law. The open view brings truth to the lie.
I think imaginative prayer can bring us closer to truly knowing who we are in Christ. IMHO Greg Boyd's book Seeing is Believing brings head knowledge into a heart knowledge level. I look forward to this discussion!
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Tiggers
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 219
| Posted 4/5/2004 5:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
(Jo-Anne) I have and this is what brought me to open theism. It was at a point in my life of intense suffering as a child and asking where God was at that time (a counsellor told me to ask Him that). I could not bear the thought that He was there but did nothing to prevent what was happening - that the all knowing, all loving, all powerful God just "watched." Since He was in my classical traditional view - all powerful, had exhaustive control over everything, then He couldn't have been all loving or all good or He would have stopped what was happening to me...hence my discovery of open theism (which has changed my relationship with the Father.
Tiggers’ Reply,
Wow, I fell ya Jo-Anne, truly! Have you read God at War yet? That book really helped me grow spiritually in my faith.
quote:
(Tiggers) Neil T. Anderson comes across saying that our beliefs (e.g., I’m a saint/child of God, etc.) will effect the way we act positively, i.e., we will more easily experience God in contrast to believing say that I’m a sinner, which will effect the way we act negatively. You see, if we intellectually believe that we are a sinner then are actions will follow, or it will be that much easier to sin. So my point is what really comes first?
[AND]
(Jo-Anne) We are exhorted (in the N.T.) to behave a certain way because of who we are in Him. It is not just who we are positionally but who we actually are. We are to "walk in the light as He is in the light." We are to "be holy as He is holy" "If any man be in Christ, He is a new Creation...old things are passed away..."
Tiggers’ Reply,
What I was trying to bring out is that Neil contrasts Greg’s idea a little (I think) that intellectual knowledge will give birth to experience. Doc seems to say that many of us have some intellectual knowledge but that this does not beget the experience. Soo, my question was…which comes first? (I’m still not sure)! Maybe it’s a combination of the two.
quote:
(Jo-Anne) I know! I'm excited about learning more. In the past two years I have learned to spend more time listening and less time talking, more time waiting. I have also learned to combine my prayer times with praise (piano playing), journalling, writing prose and poetry, reading scripture, talking and listening...sometimes sitting, standing under the stars, driving, lying down. I have learned what a creatively sovereign Lord we have and am more creative in how I worship Him and how I pray. I guess if you think about the ways that a husband and wife communicate it is through much more than talking.
Tiggers’ Reply,
AMEN, Jo-Anne! I for 1 tend to babble at times I should just shut up!
quote:
(Tiggers) Why do I say check this out…well, because in some ways it truly seems that I’m trying to leave the real world and enter the matrix (the unreal world, i.e., imagination); rather than, enter the real world and escape the matrix…anyone follow me?
AND
(Jo-Anne) Which is the real world? If it were just imagination then it would be like an escape - but if it is Holy Spirit inspired imagination...then it is very real. Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane showed a reality that we seldom see in "The Passion" It showed Jesus in intense, emotional communication with the Father...walking, then face first in the dust and it showed the spiritual battle that was taking place at the same time. That was reality. But I know what you're saying. I think the key is in being guided by the Holy Spirit so we are not deceived by the enemy.
Tiggers’ Reply,
Good question, Jo-Anne. The real world is not this one. This world has been separated from God. It’s one that is fallen and needs Jesus to bridge us back with God. The real world is not one that is of mere flesh and blood (e.g., analogy of the tents that pass away), but rather is filled with…well, new bodies that don’t pass away, feel no pain, etc. Now, I’ve never seen the real world I guess, but I would love to see it. I believe some of the prophets were able to see glimpses of it, but I believe that it was different from our imagination.
Jo-Anne, how do we know that it is the Holy Spirit inspired imagination? And how do we decipher when it is or isn’t inspired? You see, while the big H.S. won’t lead you astray your imagination or demonic influences could, right?
Thanks Jo-Anne for replying and jumping into the book discussion I can tell that I will learn a great deal from you, truly!
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers 
“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie). | | Back to Top | | |
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Tiggers
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 219
| Posted 4/5/2004 5:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
(Tiggers) Have you all ever asked where God was at a particular time in your life?
(Jo-Anne) I have and this is what brought me to open theism. It was at a point in my life of intense suffering as a child and asking where God was at that time (a counsellor told me to ask Him that). I could not bear the thought that He was there but did nothing to prevent what was happening - that the all knowing, all loving, all powerful God just "watched." Since He was in my classical traditional view - all powerful, had exhaustive control over everything, then He couldn't have been all loving or all good or He would have stopped what was happening to me...hence my discovery of open theism (which has changed my relationship with the Father.
I agree. The only way I can understand God being all loving is through open theism. If I had a belief that God willed tragedy in my life or the lives of others I could not find the ALL in the loving image of God. I know of so many people who have been hurt through the "God willed the tragedy for your good" explanation.... I think predestination is Satan's way of blinding the believer similarly to how the Pharisee's were blinded by the law. The open view brings truth to the lie.
I think imaginative prayer can bring us closer to truly knowing who we are in Christ. IMHO Greg Boyd's book Seeing is Believing brings head knowledge into a heart knowledge level. I look forward to this discussion!
Tiggers' Reply,
I agree with you fully, i.e., "the only way I can understand God being all loving is through open theism." I too, hope to gorow spiritually through imaginative prayer, but still haven't gotten over the Jesus' image in my imagination being adaquate to the real Christ...ya know, but I am open to it.
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers
“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie). | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/5/2004 4:12 PM (GMT -6) | | E-mail from a friend:
quote:
(Jonathan) Edwards has a thorough discourse on the "imagination" in his "Religious Affections". Here are some excerpts:
===============
"Hence, it appears, that impressions which some have received in their imagination, or the imaginary ideas which they have of God or christ, or heaven, or anything appertaining to religion, have nothing in them that is spiritual or of the nature of true grace......
Many who have had such things have very ignorantly supposed them to be of the nature of spiritual discoveries. They have had lively ideas of some external shape, and beautiful form of countenance; and this they call spiritually seeing Christ. Some have had impressed upon them ideas of a great outward light; and this they call a spiritual discovery of God's or Christ's glory. Some have had ideas of Christ's hanging on the cross, and His blood running down from His wounds; and this they call a spiritual sight of Christ crucified, and the way of salvation by His blood. Some have seen Him with his arms open ready to embrace them; and this they call a discovery of the sufficiency of Christ's grace and love..........
But it is exceedingly apparent that such ideas have nothing in them which is spiritual and divine, in the sense that it has been demonstrated that all gracious experiences are spiritual and divine........these are of the same sort of sensations of the mind that we have by those natural principles which are common to us with the beasts.....the five external senses.
For example, the external idea a man has of Christ hanging on the cross, and shedding His blood, is no better in itself than the external idea that the Jews His enemies had, who stood round His cross, and saw this with their own bodily eyes.......
And there is not only nothing in the nature of external ideas or imaginations of outward appearances, from whence we can infer that they are above the power of the Devil; but it is certain also that the Devil can excite, and often hath excited, such ideas. They were external ideas which he excited in the dreams and visions of the false prophets of old, who were under the influence of lying spirits, that we often read of in Scritpure, as in (citations)........
Almighty power is no more requisite to represent the shape of man to the imagination than the shape of anything else: there is no higher kind of power necessary to form in the brain one bodily shape or another. It needs a no more glorious power to represent the form of the body of a man than the form of a chip or block; though it be of a very beautiful human body, with a sweet smile in his countenance, or arms open, or blood running from the hands, feet, and side.
If it is also true that they claim God brought (scriptural) words to their minds, and they certainly knew it, that would not be spiritual knowledge; it may exist without any spiritual sense; Balaam might know that the words which God suggested to him were indeed suggested to him by God, and yet have no spiritual knowledge........ So that these affections which are built on the notion that texts of Scripture are sent immediately from God, are built on no spiritual foundation, and are vain and delusive."
==============
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/6/2004 11:01 PM (GMT -6) | |
(originally by Tiggers) I agree with you fully, i.e., "the only way I can understand God being all loving is through open theism." I too, hope to gorow spiritually through imaginative prayer, but still haven't gotten over the Jesus' image in my imagination being adaquate to the real Christ...ya know, but I am open to it.
(Reply by Jo-Anne) Here's a thought. It's late and I may be off base but 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 speaks of prophecy as upbuilding, consoling, encouraging and I was just thinking again that the key is that it is Holy Spirit inspired. Some of the most beautiful and uplifting expressions of prophecy have come when people allow God (through their prayer and devotional times) to paint a picture for them - to give them a vision of Himself that lifts us out of this temporal world from our fleshly bodies that toil and struggle - to a higher plane with Him where we can worship in spirit and in truth. One of the most beautiful expressions of imaginative prayer that I can recall is a woman who at a convention in Alberta last year was praying and God gave her a vision of a woman in a long flowing gown sitting in front of the sea with a mountain off to the side. The woman was playing some kind of instrument. She was so inspired that she painted it. Then the Lord told her to give it to another woman who had come from a church in another city (at the conference as well). The next morning at the hotel this woman gave her beautiful painting away with the explanation that the Lord had instructed her to do this. The woman she gave it to wept. She had had a dream about a beautiful woman in a long flowing gown by the sea playing an instrument and was so inspired that she had written a worship song. The two women shared this experience with us. The projected the painting up onto the hotel wall and the woman who had written the song, played and sang it for us. Lives were transformed (theirs in particular I'm sure). This is what I call imaginative prayer...allowing the Holy Spirit to inspire your thoughts and give you visions...perhaps prophecy to share with others (not prophetic necessarily - but prophecy).
What do you think? At the same conference while I was praying I had a picture in my head of kneeling before the Father and having a sword placed on my shoulder and the message He gave me to share was that we are a royal priesthood, knighted by Him to serve our King in His Kingdom. We are in the service of the King. Is this imaginative prayer? If it was just my imagination, I would say no but if it is inspired by the Holy Spirit in prayer...then yes. I love to pray. It is not mundane to me. Sure there are times when I grow weary...but these kinds of experiences shared by others renew my fervent desire to pray. Open Theism has done this as well. At times I envision the battle and what is happening through prayer. I don't often share it out loud unless I really believe He is asking me to do that. Do you experience this as well? I think Dr Boyd is right. We've been taught to mistrust our imagination and sometimes think miss wonderful transforming experiences because of this.
Nite and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Tiggers
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 219
| Posted 4/9/2004 10:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey POW,
Thanks for J.E.’s quotes regarding this issue of seeing Jesus through our imagination, truly! I am skeptical, but by no means do I reject the theses just yet.
J.E. Writes,
"Hence, it appears, that impressions which some have received in their imagination, or the imaginary ideas which they have of God or christ, or heaven, or anything appertaining to religion, have nothing in them that is spiritual or of the nature of true grace......”
Tiggers’ Reply,
This is merely an assumption from Edwards based on absolutely NO EVIDENCE. What are Edward's premises for holding to such a statement?
J.E. Writes,
”Many who have had such things have very ignorantly supposed them to be of the nature of spiritual discoveries. They have had lively ideas of some external shape, and beautiful form of countenance; and this they call spiritually seeing Christ. Some have had impressed upon them ideas of a great outward light; and this they call a spiritual discovery of God's or Christ's glory. Some have had ideas of Christ's hanging on the cross, and His blood running down from His wounds; and this they call a spiritual sight of Christ crucified, and the way of salvation by His blood. Some have seen Him with his arms open ready to embrace them; and this they call a discovery of the sufficiency of Christ's grace and love..........”
Tiggers’ Reply
Now, POW or POW’s friend…if someone imagines in their head Christ’s hanging on the cross, and hanging on the cross is scriptural, then why is this ignorance, seriously? Why can't the H.S. give you spiritual knowledge that has already been written within the Scriptures?
J.E. Writes,
”But it is exceedingly apparent that such ideas have nothing in them which is spiritual and divine, in the sense that it has been demonstrated that all gracious experiences are spiritual and divine........these are of the same sort of sensations of the mind that we have by those natural principles which are common to us with the beasts.....the five external senses.”
AND
“For example, the external idea a man has of Christ hanging on the cross, and shedding His blood, is no better in itself than the external idea that the Jews His enemies had, who stood round His cross, and saw this with their own bodily eyes.......”
AND
“And there is not only nothing in the nature of external ideas or imaginations of outward appearances, from whence we can infer that they are above the power of the Devil; but it is certain also that the Devil can excite, and often hath excited, such ideas. They were external ideas which he excited in the dreams and visions of the false prophets of old, who were under the influence of lying spirits, that we often read of in Scritpure, as in (citations)........”
Tiggers’ Reply,
Ok, is Edwards serious about this crap he’s spout’n? On the real, if the imagination matches scripture (yet is still imagination) why is that “exited by the Devil”…yikes  ! I hope Edwards is using a little hyperbolic language here.
J.E. Writes,
”Almighty power is no more requisite to represent the shape of man to the imagination than the shape of anything else: there is no higher kind of power necessary to form in the brain one bodily shape or another. It needs a no more glorious power to represent the form of the body of a man than the form of a chip or block; though it be of a very beautiful human body, with a sweet smile in his countenance, or arms open, or blood running from the hands, feet, and side.”
AND
”If it is also true that they claim God brought (scriptural) words to their minds, and they certainly knew it, that would not be spiritual knowledge; it may exist without any spiritual sense; Balaam might know that the words which God suggested to him were indeed suggested to him by God, and yet have no spiritual knowledge........ So that these affections which are built on the notion that texts of Scripture are sent immediately from God, are built on no spiritual foundation, and are vain and delusive.”
Tiggers’ Reply,
What is “spiritual knowledge” to Edwards, and furthermore, who is he to judge what the big H.S. can or can’t do in the imagination of others?
Now, God going to Balaam and giving him Her/His words, according to Edwards, contains no spiritual knowledge, but seems a bit ridiculous to me. Why…because God is spiritually going to Balaam and giving these words to him, and YES Balaam is understanding what God has proclaimed to him (like it or not)…hence Balaam has KNOWLEDGE given to him by the Spirit of God…therefore Balaam has been given spiritual knowledge, dig?
Thanks again, POW!
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers
“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie). | | Back to Top | | |
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Tiggers
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 219
| Posted 4/9/2004 10:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne Asserts,
“Here's a thought. It's late and I may be off base but 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 speaks of prophecy as upbuilding, consoling, encouraging and I was just thinking again that the key is that it is Holy Spirit inspired. Some of the most beautiful and uplifting expressions of prophecy have come when people allow God (through their prayer and devotional times) to paint a picture for them - to give them a vision of Himself that lifts us out of this temporal world from our fleshly bodies that toil and struggle - to a higher plane with Him where we can worship in spirit and in truth. One of the most beautiful expressions of imaginative prayer that I can recall is a woman who at a convention in Alberta last year was praying and God gave her a vision of a woman in a long flowing gown sitting in front of the sea with a mountain off to the side. The woman was playing some kind of instrument. She was so inspired that she painted it. Then the Lord told her to give it to another woman who had come from a church in another city (at the conference as well). The next morning at the hotel this woman gave her beautiful painting away with the explanation that the Lord had instructed her to do this. The woman she gave it to wept. She had had a dream about a beautiful woman in a long flowing gown by the sea playing an instrument and was so inspired that she had written a worship song. The two women shared this experience with us. The projected the painting up onto the hotel wall and the woman who had written the song, played and sang it for us. Lives were transformed (theirs in particular I'm sure). This is what I call imaginative prayer...allowing the Holy Spirit to inspire your thoughts and give you visions...perhaps prophecy to share with others (not prophetic necessarily - but prophecy).”
AND
”What do you think? At the same conference while I was praying I had a picture in my head of kneeling before the Father and having a sword placed on my shoulder and the message He gave me to share was that we are a royal priesthood, knighted by Him to serve our King in His Kingdom. We are in the service of the King. Is this imaginative prayer? If it was just my imagination, I would say no but if it is inspired by the Holy Spirit in prayer...then yes. I love to pray. It is not mundane to me. Sure there are times when I grow weary...but these kinds of experiences shared by others renew my fervent desire to pray. Open Theism has done this as well. At times I envision the battle and what is happening through prayer. I don't often share it out loud unless I really believe He is asking me to do that. Do you experience this as well? I think Dr Boyd is right. We've been taught to mistrust our imagination and sometimes think miss wonderful transforming experiences because of this.”
Tiggers’ Reply,
Dag Jo…You’d be writing a bit early, “A”? Ok, the story was definitely heart felt, and if it is true, than I can only hope that God too, speaks to me through beautiful dreams and visions (I think)! I do love your vision of the “sword” though, and it makes me want to “storm the gates of hell” as the Doc puts it in God at War. I’m still skeptical about this quote just yet… “We've been taught to mistrust our imagination and sometimes think miss wonderful transforming experiences because of this.” You see maybe we should mistrust our imagination…we’ll see?
Anyways, great discussion! I hope that on Monday I’ll start chapter 1 unless someone else wants to go first. I think everyone who is going to weigh in on the Introduction has done so. Sooooo, let’s get it on. God bless, ya’ll!
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers
PS
Jo-Anne, what did you think of POW's post?
“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie). | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/9/2004 11:03 AM (GMT -6) | | POW,
Thank you for the Edwards quote. I think that the reference to the devil is interesting. If Satan appears as an angel of light, what do you think that I will perceive him as? I think that the devil can give us whatever imagination we are hoping God to appear to us in. The spirit of the antichrist spoken of in 1 John 4:1 isn't one that denies Christ but substitutes the Christ of the flesh for a spiritual one.
What is especially troubling in this book is Dr. Boyd's attempt to separate the "truth" from the "real" and redefine them as separate concepts. He then claims that, regardless of the written truth, the imagination is the conduit through which God conveys to us the "real." Thus we are left with the question concerning the nature of "faith." Is faith something of the heart/mind/written truth or is faith something of the heart/imaginations/feelings? The word translated "imagination" in the OT, maskith, is not usually used in a good light. For example in Jeremiah 23:16 Thus says the LORD of hosts,
“Do not listen to the words of the prophets
who are prophesying to you.
They are leading you into futility;
They speak a vision of their own imagination,
Not from the mouth of the LORD.
“They keep saying to those who despise Me,
‘The LORD has said, “You will have peace”’;
And as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart,
They say, ‘Calamity will not come upon you.’
“But who has stood in the council of the LORD,
That he should see and hear His word?
Who has given heed to His word and listened? quote:
Psalms 73:7 The imaginations of their heart run riot. They mock and wickedly speak of oppression; They speak from on high. They have set their mouth against the heavens
It is interesting that the passage in Jeremiah contrasts the imaginations of the men who claim to speak for God with the objective Word of God and those who heed it. Scriptures present us with peace that is falsly promised by imaginations which can only be truly found in the message of the gospel. We are commanded to give heed to His Word and the Jesus found there and not to follow these imaginations, even when they make us feel peaceful.
Spen Lake
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Tiggers
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| Posted 4/9/2004 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Spenlake Asserts,
”Thank you for the Edwards quote. I think that the reference to the devil is interesting. If Satan appears as an angel of light, what do you think that I will perceive him as? I think that the devil can give us whatever imagination we are hoping God to appear to us in. The spirit of the antichrist spoken of in 1 John 4:1 isn't one that denies Christ but substitutes the Christ of the flesh for a spiritual one.”
Tiggers’ Reply,
Ok, I’m not getting something here with you cats, i.e., why do you jump to the conclusion that the Jesus of your imagination is really Satan appearing as an angel of light? I mean come on now, isn’t this a bit much? To me ya’ll are just reach’n and this kind of jump in logic just isn’t work’n? Think about this for a minute, that is, if your vision or imagination squared with inspired scripture then how can it be from Satan. What would Satan gain by giving you a vision such as Jo-Annes. Wouldn’t this be Satan fighting against his own? Take for example Jo-Anne’s vision “I was praying I had a picture in my head of kneeling before the Father and having a sword placed on my shoulder and the message He gave me to share was that we are a royal priesthood, knighted by Him to serve our King in His Kingdom. We are in the service of the King. Is this imaginative prayer? If it was just my imagination, I would say no…” Now, was this imagination…or truly inspired prayer…I’m just not sure, yet. But where does this vision go against Scripture? What could Satan possibly gain, here?
Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers
PS
Great post Spenlake, and I’m very glad you’re adding in your opinions, thanks!
“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie). | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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| Posted 4/9/2004 11:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice," and "they follow Me."
Paul said they that are led by the Spirit are the children of God.
While I certainly recognize the dangers of some forms of mysticism, and I know all too well the fallacy of seeking spiritual experience for its own sake (instead of for the sake of knowing Christ better), I do fail to see how or why we should deny the direct experience of the Holy Spirit and Christ's voice to us by that same Spirit:
Heb. 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you will hear His voice,
8Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, "They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.'
11So I swore in My wrath,
"They shall not enter My rest."'
12Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
15while it is said:
"Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
Eph. 1:15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. 22And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
Of course, any and all revelation must line up with Scripture, but let's think about the above prayer of St. Paul for a moment. When he wrote this, the vast majority of the New Testament had not even been written yet. Most of the recipients of this prayer would in fact have to depend greatly on the Holy Spirit's direct revelation to them for this prayer to be answered, as they didn't each have Bibles they could study, and certainly didn't have most of what we now have as the New Testament.
Again, I have not yet read Boyd's book on this subject. I am merely trying to bring the Scriptures (not the uninspired words of Edwards, great a man of God as he was) to bear upon this question.
What true Christian would want to deny the reality of the Holy Spirit's presence, leadership, and voice to the heart and mind of others?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 4/9/2004 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice," and "they follow Me."
What true Christian would want to deny the reality of the Holy Spirit's presence, leadership, and voice to the heart and mind of others?
AMEN
Well said John.
We can discern the Spirit by the fruit it bears and by Scripture.
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spenlake
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| Posted 4/9/2004 12:26 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
quote:
John says: What true Christian would want to deny the reality of the Holy Spirit's presence, leadership, and voice to the heart and mind of others?
I have not denied the reality of the Holy Spirit's presence, leading, and voice to the heart/mind of others. I have no idea where you feel that I have said this. I do believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to us. He can even speak to us in ways that He chooses, including trances and visions. The issue I am raising is not one IF the Holy Spirit speaks to us. I believe that we agree on this issue, and, I am not a cessationist. One issue that I am raising is HOW CAN WE BE CERTAIN that it is the Holy Spirit we are hearing as we have other spirits that speak to us as well? The other issue is WHAT METHODS has God given us to pursue the presence and voice of the Holy Spirit?
Your passage from Hebrews was not about the Israelites failing to follow a mystical experience. They refused to believe and obey objective words given by God to their physical ears in Exodus 20.
"Then God spoke all these words, saying...All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die...Then the LORD said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.”"
Your passage from Hebrews is quoted from Psalm 95:11 that clearly states God's frustration because, "They tried me though they had seen my work." These people did not imagine the plagues and mighty deliverance God had objectively done. They just refused to believe Him anyway in spite of the tangible record and the very voice of God that they heard. They rebelled against the Word they knew to be true.
"Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, "They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.'
So I swore in My wrath,
"They shall not enter My rest."'
The whole point of Hebrews is that only a remnant believed in the Word of God though they all saw the acts of God and heard Him speak to them from the smoking flaming mountain. They still rejected Him and wanted a god they made for themselves with a story from their imaginations 12 chapters later in Exodus 32:24.
God has given us explicit instructions concerning how to discern the Holy Spirit in 1 John 4:1. If we fail to heed these instructions and depend upon "feelings" then we are at risk. John gave us this as a command and told us what to measure by. All the true sheep of Jesus will know His voice because it speaks the identical message that was heard with physical ears of men who wrote it down so that we can share it with them. All those that listen to the words of a "spiritual Jesus" fail the test of 1 John 4 and may have the peace promised by the men of Jeremiah 23. We are told that there are different Jesus' by Paul in sarcastic irony in 2 Cor 11:4,
"For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully."
The true Jesus is communicated to us by men who knew and heard Him and who wrote down His teachings and words. He was not a mystical experience to them. The fathers of our faith were not better and more successful mystics than the rest of us. The saw and interacted with God objectively through their senses. Many of the Israelites who did this still refused to believe, died in unbelief, and were damned. This objective Jesus that was and remains in the flesh of His resurrected body is the only one that we are to set our minds upon, not in freestyle imaginations. He has holes in His hands and feet. He now sits bodily in heaven at the right hand of the Father and will come to those who have not seen Him and yet believe.
Spen Lake
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John Earp
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| Posted 4/9/2004 2:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John,
quote:
John says: What true Christian would want to deny the reality of the Holy Spirit's presence, leadership, and voice to the heart and mind of others?
I have not denied the reality of the Holy Spirit's presence, leading, and voice to the heart/mind of others. I have no idea where you feel that I have said this. I do believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to us. He can even speak to us in ways that He chooses, including trances and visions. The issue I am raising is not one IF the Holy Spirit speaks to us. I believe that we agree on this issue, and, I am not a cessationist. One issue that I am raising is HOW CAN WE BE CERTAIN that it is the Holy Spirit we are hearing as we have other spirits that speak to us as well? The other issue is WHAT METHODS has God given us to pursue the presence and voice of the Holy Spirit?
Agreed. As I said earlier, all such revelation must line up with Scripture. That is, it must be judged by the objective revelation of Scripture.
quote:
Your passage from Hebrews was not about the Israelites failing to follow a mystical experience.
I don't know why you attribute this term to my view, "mystical experience." Where have I ever once argued for a "mystical experience?" I am simply and only asserting the clear teaching of the Bible (objective revelation), that we must hear and obey the voice of the Lord (whether written or directly communicated to our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit).
John
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/10/2004 9:36 AM (GMT -6) | | (I also posted this on the other "Seeing is Believing" thread by Tiggers in the Board folder. However, it appears that this is where the discussion is.)
Dr. Boyd has redefined the words “truth” and “real” to mean different things.
On page 11 he states, “Wondering whether Christianity is real is not the same as wondering whether Christianity is true.”
On page 13 he states, “Remember, it’s not what we believe intellectually that impacts us; it’s what we experience as real.”
Dr. Boyd is telling us that the objective factual evidence that we tangibly discern and process with our intellect is less real than subjective experiences we don’t confirm with our senses. Dr. Boyd goes on to define “spiritual truth” as internal subjective experiences. He states on page 15,
“We have forgotten the truth that while the imagination certainly can be merely ‘imaginative,’ it can also be the means by which we experience spiritual truths as real.”
This may sound innocent, if spiritual truths experienced actually conform to objective truth – Scripture and the historical record observed by men. This is exactly what is denied, however, and the process that Dr. Boyd provides us with constructs an “alternate reality” in his imagination that is disassociated with the objective historical record. He constructs a lie and he claims it “real.” He implicates his imagined “spiritual Jesus” into his lie and claims it to be true and Scriptural, because it works.
I am not exaggerating. Dr. Boyd gives us the factual historical objective truth of an incident in his life. He had a cruel grandmother that didn’t give him a present and called him bad which he recounts on page 117,
“No, Greggie is a bad boy, and bad boys don’t get presents.”
This incident brings pain to his life. Dr. Boyd discovers the techniques of imaginative prayer and applies them on pages 118 through 122, progressing through a series of emotions from grieving to forgiveness. Dr. Boyd claims that Jesus personally leads him through this process. As the process unfolds, we see that what is happening is that Jesus Himself is changing the objective historical record witnessed by Dr. Boyd’s sisters to a different story that never happened. This story evolves into the following account on page 121,
“But this time, instead of seeing the angry wrinkled face of my grandmother, I saw the radiant, joyful face of Jesus. He leaned over the bag and peeked in with a wildly excited smile on his face. Instead of hearing my grandmother say, ‘No, Greggie is a bad boy,’ I heard Jesus exclaim, ‘Oh, of course Greggie gets a present! He is such a good boy!’ He rubbed my head vigorously as he said, ‘It’s a very special gift. That’s why I saved it for last.’ I began hopping and flapping my arms even more excited than before as I looked again into the paper sack. And there I saw a huge red toy airplane.”
Dr. Boyd has imagined, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and Jesus, a new historical record without witnesses that he now believes to be “real” and a spiritual experience of the truth. This is how the imaginative Jesus enabled Dr. Boyd to forgive his grandmother and find healing. It is the process of building a story that opposes objective reality, believing that it is inspired and therefore “real” and experiencing relief from the historical record that is now “unreal” so that forgiveness is possible. He states on page 123,
“It is crucial to note, however, that forgiveness usually comes at the end of the healing process (i.e. imagined story believed as true), not at the beginning.
Scriptures tell us of a different path to forgiveness which doesn’t consist of my creating inspired “subjective reality.” When I realize that I am utterly sinful and undeserving, with a monumental debt towards God I am incapable of paying, destined to damnation - and God comes and dies for me and forgives my mountainous debt and gives me eternal life instead, the antithesis of anything I deserved or merited – the gratitude that whelms up in my heart and mind at this realization enables me to forgive the puny debts that grandmothers owe to me. This is the gospel. This doesn’t require spirits to create freestyle historical records so I can forgive. It simply believes in the work that God, as a tangible man, did for me on the cross. This is where we find the true and real power to forgive, in objective history that was seen by witnesses and written down for us to read and understand.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 4/10/2004 8:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John,
I am saying that you only KNOW that it is the Holy Spirit communicating with your heart and mind because it is Scriptural. This is not mysticism. The trouble is that "spirits" in general communicate with our heart and mind, not just the Holy Spirit. So we come to the issue of discernment. If the Holy Spirit communicates something to me that is NOT directly written in Scriptures, how do I know it is the Holy Spirit speaking? If God is speaking to us and we don't obey then we sin.
Hello Spenlake, you continue pursuing this mysticism vs. Holy Spirit using Scripture as the ONLY way of discerning spirits. I agree that we need to take great caution as killing abortion doctors or hi-jacking planes into buildings will contest. But, Scripture is not the only way of discerning spirits; the Holy Spirit bears fruit that testifies to the nature of God’s will and love.
Galatians 5:22-23 (NLT)
But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.
Matthew 7:15-20 (NIV)
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/11/2004 2:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Sparkenheart,
He is RISEN and we all have a hope that is proven real because of it!
You tell me: "Hello Spenlake, you continue pursuing this mysticism vs. Holy Spirit using Scripture as the ONLY way of discerning spirits. I agree that we need to take great caution as killing abortion doctors or hi-jacking planes into buildings will contest. But, Scripture is not the only way of discerning spirits; the Holy Spirit bears fruit that testifies to the nature of God’s will and love."
While we know that the Holy Spirit does produce the fruit of love, is the outward expression of "love" sufficient to tell us that only the Holy Spirit produced it? What I mean is, if you only measured by "love" then the Dali Lama or Gandhi, or Zoroaster or many other men would pass the bar (far ahead of many Christians). Dr. Boyd agrees with this and explains it well on page 104,
"Our works themselves (meaning "fruit" of love, etc.) can become another idolatrous source of life. Far from feeding us, they make us only more hungry. Far from restoring us, they make us only more tired. Our works, may of course, succeed in producing an appearance of wholeness."
The men above would have had an appearance of wholeness according to external love, but still not known God or spoken for Him. If you followed them and believed their teaching you would be damned. If you look at the passage in Matthew that you cite, go further. It ends up with miracle-working men doing battle to dominate demons in the name of Christ. They claim to speak for God in prophecy. They believe they are following their God and call Him Lord. Jesus expels them to eternal damnation for being Lawless. This Lawlessness has to do with a written message. They didn't believe the gospel or they wouldn't have been expelled.
The "ultimate fruit" is only judged by the message. Paul warns us of people, super apostles, who have wonderful external fruit but a corrupted message in 2 Cor 11:4. Paul claims that his own message and the Jesus he preached were the only standard.
"For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully."
Therefore I do believe that the Word is the only way to discern.
Plus, if you were one of those in the temple doing your best to make a living and some guy comes in with a whip and begins beating you with it and turns your store upside down with an angry zealous look in his eye - would you be in a position to exclaim, "What wonderful fruit of love!" If I was one that somebody in Matt 23 called hypocrite, widow exploiter, son of hell, blind guide, fool, whitewashed tomb, and lawless, I would probably not be objective in discerning "love" and may miss the message by mis-diagnosing the "fruit" of the person speaking to me.
God bless you and your family.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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| Posted 4/11/2004 7:53 AM (GMT -6) | | This thread is on Dr. Boyd's new book, and in this book he takes us from a true/real historical account that was witnessed by his sisters to a spiritual experience of “real” that has no witnesses but himself.
Page 117: “No, Greggie is a bad boy, and bad boys don’t get presents.”
Becomes,
Page 121: “But this time, instead of seeing the angry wrinkled face of my grandmother, I saw the radiant, joyful face of Jesus. He leaned over the bag and peeked in with a wildly excited smile on his face. Instead of hearing my grandmother say, ‘No, Greggie is a bad boy,’ I heard Jesus exclaim, ‘Oh, of course Greggie gets a present! He is such a good boy!’ He rubbed my head vigorously as he said, ‘It’s a very special gift. That’s why I saved it for last.’ I began hopping and flapping my arms even more excited than before as I looked again into the paper sack. And there I saw a huge red toy airplane.”
The true account of history has become a false “real” account inspired by spirits that Dr. Boyd finds freedom and comfort in believing as “true.” This brings to mind a passage from 2 Thess 2:11:
"because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false"
Dr. Boyd finds forgiveness for his grandmother in a false story inspired by spirits. If we examine the story closer and the message that this “spiritual Jesus” speaks, how does it compare with the words of the real Jesus that we have in black and white? Dr. Boyd’s imagined Jesus calls an unsaved sinner “good” and Dr. Boyd find this comforting. The real man Jesus said this in Matthew 19:16,
“Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
And claims His being good makes Him God in Mark 10:17 and Luke 18:18, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.”
Does the Jesus that we know in the Bible change and call unsaved sinners “good” to comfort them. Or, is it possible that this is another Jesus and another spirit that brings Dr. Boyd comfort in a lie that he desires to believe because the truth isn’t loved?
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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| Posted 4/11/2004 1:29 PM (GMT -6) | | In this book, on page 131, Dr. Boyd writes the following to fend off criticism that his methods are "new age",
"Since the late sixties, millions of people in the West have come to endorse elements of Eastern religion...meditation techniques, and to practice shamanistic forms of visualization. They have claimed, in many ways, that they can tap into their inner divinity, their own infinite potentiality, and create their own reality by visualizing it. Sometimes people are encouraged to visualize a spirit guide in their imagination and allow this guide to instruct them or heal them."
I maintain that Dr. Boyd is doing this in this book, calling his methods. Is this too strong and am I being "hypercritical?" He encourages us to visualize a "spiritual Jesus" spirit guide in our imagination and to allow it to instruct and heal us from page 71 to page 126. With this spirit he creates his own reality by visualizing it and finds healing there. By his own admission this experience is "false" and not witnessed by his sisters who were there. Jesus tells him a comforting lie by calling unsaved sinners "good," contrary to what the real Jesus said in the gospels. Only after convincing himself of the "reality" of this freestyle history does Dr. Boyd find freedom and the power to forgive his cruel grandmother. Not one time does this "spiritual Jesus" mention His death on the cross and the price that He paid to cover Dr. Boyd's sins.
This spiritual "Jesus" fails the test of 1 John 4:1, quote:
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
In addition, Boyd's own background includes Eastern mysticism as we see on page 57, quote:
After trying everything from Eastern mysticism (combined with drug experimentation) to rank atheism (the "faith" my father adopted, I ended up embracing Christ at the age of seventeen.
Dr. Boyd quotes from Morton Kelsey on page 103, calling him "Renowned author and theologian Morton Kelsey."
"Imaginative prayer is so transforming because, as Kelsey notes, it gives us a 'way of thinking that brings us closer to actual experiences of the spiritual world than any concept or merely verbal idea about that realm.'"
Morton Kelsey looked to Dr. Carl Jung for much of his insight, flying to Europe to visit Jung in person. Jung, the great psychologist/occultist, attributed his insights to his "spirit guide" named Philemon. There is a direct link from Philemon the spirit guide to Kelsey that Dr. Boyd finds renowned.
I find this disturbing.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 4/11/2004 3:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
While we know that the Holy Spirit does produce the fruit of love, is the outward expression of "love" sufficient to tell us that only the Holy Spirit produced it? What I mean is, if you only measured by "love" then the Dali Lama or Gandhi, or Zoroaster or many other men would pass the bar (far ahead of many Christians).
Hello SpenLake,
Please check out the following link posted by BBBCanada about:
Evangelical Theological Society
The 54th Annual Meeting
November 20-22, 2002
Theme: Christianity and Other Religions
Topic: Religious Pluralism: A Turn to the Holy Spirit
http://www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3091&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=,Gandhi
quote:
"Our works themselves (meaning "fruit" of love, etc.) can become another idolatrous source of life. Far from feeding us, they make us only more hungry. Far from restoring us, they make us only more tired.
Give me an example please.
quote:
The men above would have had an appearance of wholeness according to external love, but still not known God or spoken for Him. If you followed them and believed their teaching you would be damned.
So as a Christian, if I follow the example of a peaceful man I'm dammed?
quote:
Plus, if you were one of those in the temple doing your best to make a living and some guy comes in with a whip and begins beating you with it and turns your store upside down with an angry zealous look in his eye - would you be in a position to exclaim, "What wonderful fruit of love!" If I was one that somebody in Matt 23 called hypocrite, widow exploiter, son of hell, blind guide, fool, whitewashed tomb, and lawless, I would probably not be objective in discerning "love" and may miss the message by mis-diagnosing the "fruit" of the person speaking to me.
Did Jesus every say that we should follow this rare example of God's wrath?
Peace to you.
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