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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > Seeing is Believing and the BBC gospel | Forum Quick Jump
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/6/2004 11:19 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
All good gift come down from the Father above. It rains on the just and the unjust and He gives the world its food.
True, the love of God rains on all. The difference is that some people absorb the living water while others just get wet.
Do we have to choose between the two kingdoms, if we do not choose, are we by default being led by the god of this age. Yes or No?
Think about it, I have to go.
Spark,
I think that we do choose to act according to our appetites. I choose to do what I want to do. If I want to sin and choose to sin, then I am a slave to sin, and the kingdom of this world. Ultimately, unbelief in the gospel is the ultimate sin. If we refuse to believe the gospel, we are damned and perish in the lake of fire. If we beleive in the gospel and Christ's work for us on the cross, then we too will be resurrected with new glorified bodies and inherit eternal life.
At the end, there are only the sheep and the goats and the right hand and the left. Those who believe will be saved.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/6/2004 4:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sparky says, "I understand it is a choice, she might have made a lot more choices to follow good spirits then evil spirits. But in this one case, did she choose to be led by evil spirits from the god of this age, the kingdom of this world?"
I can't prove she was "led" by any spirits. The record doesn't say. Sinful actions are attributed to our own lusts, not the spirits that lead us. That is how I see it. As far as I am aware of, Dr. Boyd doesn't attribute her actions to the leading od any evil spirits. Is this what you are claiming?
Spen Lake
We do not wrestle with flesh and blood. Spen Lake, perhaps a better way to frame Dr. Boyd's exercise for you would be to view the past memory as being in the spiritual realm. Although it happened in the physical life of Greg when he was a little one, the lie was embedded into his memory from something beyond the physical. Our minds have this amazing ability to relive an event even though the event is no longer taking place. Sometimes through these events Satan is able to sneak a belief into the person that is not truth. Perhaps Greg grew up believing what his Grandma had told him. Perhaps the battle that happened in the heavenly level impacted the event in such a way that this belief defined Greg for a period of time. Don't you find it amazing that not all events have equal lasting impact on our lives? Could this be because we are not just battling with flesh and blood?
If you would agree with the above then wouldn't it make sense for Greg to say that he rested in Christ through reworking the memory by applying the truth of what God would want Greg to believe about himself in the midst of the event. Wouldn't this truth set him free from the negative belief that had tainted his view of who he really is in Christ? When we know the truth of who we are in Christ we are indeed set free. When we are free we find rest and peace.
Will you please think about that for a bit?
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/7/2004 12:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
Sparky says, "I understand it is a choice, she might have made a lot more choices to follow good spirits then evil spirits. But in this one case, did she choose to be led by evil spirits from the god of this age, the kingdom of this world?"
I can't prove she was "led" by any spirits. The record doesn't say. Sinful actions are attributed to our own lusts, not the spirits that lead us. That is how I see it. As far as I am aware of, Dr. Boyd doesn't attribute her actions to the leading od any evil spirits. Is this what you are claiming?
Spen Lake
We do not wrestle with flesh and blood. Spen Lake, perhaps a better way to frame Dr. Boyd's exercise for you would be to view the past memory as being in the spiritual realm. Although it happened in the physical life of Greg when he was a little one, the lie was embedded into his memory from something beyond the physical. Our minds have this amazing ability to relive an event even though the event is no longer taking place. Sometimes through these events Satan is able to sneak a belief into the person that is not truth. Perhaps Greg grew up believing what his Grandma had told him. Perhaps the battle that happened in the heavenly level impacted the event in such a way that this belief defined Greg for a period of time. Don't you find it amazing that not all events have equal lasting impact on our lives? Could this be because we are not just battling with flesh and blood?
If you would agree with the above then wouldn't it make sense for Greg to say that he rested in Christ through reworking the memory by applying the truth of what God would want Greg to believe about himself in the midst of the event. Wouldn't this truth set him free from the negative belief that had tainted his view of who he really is in Christ? When we know the truth of who we are in Christ we are indeed set free. When we are free we find rest and peace.
Will you please think about that for a bit?
Sorry Quest,
Your post seems like you are grasping at straws. Knowing the truth isn't found in experiencing the false. There is no example of this in all of scriptures. If you can, find one, just one. The only time I can come up with is when God sends deceiving spirit in Kings or when He sends a deluding influence, so that those who refused to love the truth will be judged. Believing the false or finding freedom there is never once good or considered "resting in Christ."
In Dr. Boyd's example, the truth of Jesus and His work on calvary to forgive the sins of Dr. Boyd (or his grendmother) is not mentioned. We know love by this, that he loved us and gave Himself up for us. 1 John 3:16, "We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." This is the truth the real Spirit of Truth would have brought. The love has content, He laid down His life for us. This love encourages us to forgive the sins of others and lay down our lives for them.
Your comment, "When we know the truth of who we are in Christ we are indeed set free" seems backwards to me. It is kind of true, but it isn't stated well. Scripture says we shall know the Truth and the truth shall set us free. The passage is John 8:31,quote:
"So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
This truth has content of contining in His word. Being his disciples is conditional on this continuing. This is where we come to know the truth and He is the Truth. The emphasis is on knowing Him and continuing in His word vs. "knowing wo WE ARE in Christ." We are in Christ when we continue in His word and believe in Him, not when we are gazing at OURSELVES in Him. I know I am painting a caricature, but the concept does exist and it is HIM/Truth centric not US/Truth centric. I think that your statement is misleading because my knowing myself can be interpreted as the core instead of my knowing Him who IS truth.
Regarding replacing a history with a false historical story, I think one could make the argument that the following verse applies. 1 John 2:21, "I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth." A false replacement historical record fits the definition of a lie.
You can think that Dr. Boyd's story is a sweet thing, a cozy piece of fiction. But it is not "resting in Christ." I think that it is time for you to call a spade a spade. This is not fringe stuff, it is where we find eternal life - or the risk of damnation. For all the talk about choice on this site, WHAT one is choosing is much more important than the action of choosing itself. If you choose to believe in a false replacement story to find freedom instead of choosing to believe that Christ came to forgive our massive debt against God so that we can forgive the puny debt others owe to us, your choice is silly and will not bring eternal comfort. The gospel of the BBC at the beginning of this thread is much closer to what Dr. Boyd has taught here than the gospel of Christ.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/7/2004 10:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I believe in the activity of spirits, that I am cautious. If one didn't believe in spirits then the whole concept is different. I believe in both the Holy Spirit and other spirits, ones that have our greatest disinterest at heart.
Spen,
Are all of these “other spirits” from Satan?
Is it that black and white or do we have spirits that are not from either God or Satan, gray spirits?
What about your own spirit, is it neutral?
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/7/2004 12:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sorry Quest,
Your post seems like you are grasping at straws. Knowing the truth isn't found in experiencing the false. There is no example of this in all of scriptures. If you can, find one, just one.
I am not grasping at straws as much as I am throwing ideas out for you to consider. I believe Dr. Boyd has a heart to follow Christ and is not trying to be deceptive or misuse the bible. I believe there might be some reasoning behind what he writes. I am trying to sort this out with you here.
You and Might-Be-Don might not like the approach used but the end result is something I believe you agree with. From my understanding of the book, Dr. Boyd is able to rest in Christ when he brings Jesus into the painful memory. Dr. Boyd believes that we can rest in Christ through holding to the promise of what the bible says about us. Perhaps the method that helped him to get to the truth of destroying the lie was through this exercise. If this exercise is able to break strongholds and lead people to the truth then I believe it is a great means of transformation and transformation of our minds definitely can be found in the bible.
We are to "transform our minds by the renewing of our hearts." Some have found Dr. Boyd's exercise helps them to do this renewing in their mind. The end result from Dr. Boyd's exercise is that people are being led away from the lie and brought into the truth -- this is biblical. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free!"
Instead of telling me I am grasping at straws please tell me what you think of my thoughts here and my questions on the last post. I am okay with you, Might-Be-Don, Dr. Boyd, and myself all resting in Christ in a different way. I am okay with Dr. Boyd writing what he did in his book and saying his encounter was led by the Spirit. I am not able to understand why you believe his writing is not biblical?
I am thankful for the dialogue we have had here because I hadn't been thinking of how this exercise may be offensive for some. I hadn't thought of how it might not be some people's way to do healing until Might-Be-Don posted to you. I would have taken for granted that all people would benefit from this therapy approach but now I understand differently. Thank you for taking the time to dialogue.
Blessings! | | Back to Top | | |
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Asher
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 477
| Posted 5/10/2004 12:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi,
I've been following this and the other similar threads and wanted to work off an idea based on something Quest For Truth said; however, I want to say also that I haven't read Seeing Is Believing yet. It came in the mail today, but I haven't even skimmed it.
I think I understand Spenlake's concerns, but I also wonder whether he is getting what is being said in the book (Again, I could be way off base since I haven't read the book yet, but I HAVE read all the threads) Sometimes a shift in perception allows us to see something for REAL for the first time that we THOUGHT we knew all about already. And if you have had such a shift in perception then other shifts seem to be easier to make from then on. ( I realize this can probably be used as ammo against me to the effect that I'm willing to accept ANYTHING, but I don't believe this to be the case.) Anyways, Spen, perhaps a shift in perception such as Quest For Truth has suggested could allow you to see in Seeing Is Believing what some of the others are seeing in it, something that is beneficial and an instrument of grace for those with severely hurtful memories of things that happened in their lives.
So, imagine, if you will, the story from the Old Testament in II Kings 6 where the Aramean army surrounded Dothan intending to capture Elisha. Elisha's servant got up and went out early the next morning to find the city surrounded by the army. He was fearful and asked Elisha, "Oh, my lord, what shall we do?" Elisha seeks to calm his fears, "Don't be afraid." Those who are with us are more than those who are with them." "O Lord, open his eyes so he may see." And the servant sees the hills full of horses and chariots of fire.
Now, granted, this raises again the whole question of when and where God can more actively intervene, and where he can or does not; however, I still think there is something to be gleaned here in relation to the topic under discussion.
The servant's experience was dramatically altered in a very short period of time. However, what would the servant's experience have been had Elisha not prayed for a "seeing" for his servant?
I don't think Boyd's book (based on other's reviews)is asking anyone to invent a false history or delete history. It only offers us the hope of having our eyes opened to see what Elisha already saw. The chariots of fire were already there, Elisha saw them whether the servant did or not. Imagine now a horror filled experience in someone's life 20 years ago that continues to haunt them and hamper them from finding freedom in Christ, hinders them in their relationships with God and with men. Was God not there? Maybe He couldn't intervene in that particular event to prevent it, but was He there? What was He doing? What was He seeing? Was He crying and disturbed empathetically? Was He showing anger towards the perpetrators? Just knowing that God wasn't sitting idly by while this horror was taking place could be a source of tremendous comfort. It could be the difference between healing or remaining trapped in the past.
So, I'll read the book and make apologies if necessary ;)
Rob | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/10/2004 4:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Asherquote:
Anyways, Spen, perhaps a shift in perception such as Quest For Truth has suggested could allow you to see in Seeing Is Believing what some of the others are seeing in it, something that is beneficial and an instrument of grace for those with severely hurtful memories of things that happened in their lives.
Amen, Rob! I am not quite sure why me and Spen Lake are not able to communicate to each other in a way that is understandable to the other. Spen Lake and I both have the desire to seek after Christ.
The shift in perception is a great way to state the exercise. AMEN!
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/11/2004 12:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Asherquote:
Anyways, Spen, perhaps a shift in perception such as Quest For Truth has suggested could allow you to see in Seeing Is Believing what some of the others are seeing in it, something that is beneficial and an instrument of grace for those with severely hurtful memories of things that happened in their lives.
Amen, Rob! I am not quite sure why me and Spen Lake are not able to communicate to each other in a way that is understandable to the other. Spen Lake and I both have the desire to seek after Christ.
The shift in perception is a great way to state the exercise. AMEN!
Quest and Asher,
I actually have quoted the passage in Kings regarding the servant and chariots to prove that God does not bring false replacement events when He gives revelation. The flaming chariots were true, though usually unseen, it was the fact that they existed and were real that brought comfort. If they were a "pretend" chariots that I imagined were there to bring me comfort to a memory where bad chariots had hurt me, this would be different. I continue to tell you that I believe that there is a real "unseen" dimension. I am not disputing this. Hawever, no matter what you do to shift and struggle, God is not part of the false. God does not lie and no lie is of the truth.
quote:
Ahser says, I don't think Boyd's book (based on other's reviews)is asking anyone to invent a false history or delete history. It only offers us the hope of having our eyes opened to see what Elisha already saw. The chariots of fire were already there, Elisha saw them whether the servant did or not. Imagine now a horror filled experience in someone's life 20 years ago that continues to haunt them and hamper them from finding freedom in Christ, hinders them in their relationships with God and with men. Was God not there? Maybe He couldn't intervene in that particular event to prevent it, but was He there? What was He doing? What was He seeing? Was He crying and disturbed empathetically? Was He showing anger towards the perpetrators? Just knowing that God wasn't sitting idly by while this horror was taking place could be a source of tremendous comfort. It could be the difference between healing or remaining trapped in the past.
Ahser's statement about not thinking Dr. Boyd is asking anyone to invent a false history or delete history is based upon his "feelings" about what he wants to believe, not even on the facts of the book itself. I believe that Dr. Boyd has written what he has written and if you read it, you too can understand what he has to say. Is "reworking" memories EXACTLY deleting them? I don't think so. Is asking for spirit-inspired imagined false replacement memories EXACTLY inventing a false history? I think that it comes pretty close. What do you call it based upon written factual evidence?
I am not saying that we cannot have fresh perspecitves, spiritual or otherwise, that helps us to reevaluate past historical events and understand them in a more truthful context. I am saying that this DOES NOT include replacement fictional anti-events, false history, that we rework our memories with to "konw" the truth. This is delusion.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/11/2004 8:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen Lake quote:
I am not saying that we cannot have fresh perspecitves, spiritual or otherwise, that helps us to reevaluate past historical events and understand them in a more truthful context.
BJS quote:
Objective people can see that he has yet to offer anything even remotely concrete for his incredible proposition that praying for healed memories is outside the bounds of “resting in Christ.” .
You both are saying the same thing. We CAN and should pray to have healing from memories. God can and often does transform us through the use of giving us a new way to store the memory that will set us free from the bondage. I understand you both to be saying the same thing.
Spen Lake quote:
I am saying that this DOES NOT include replacement fictional anti-events, false history, that we rework our memories with to "konw" the truth. This is delusion
BJS quote:
And objective people can sense that his sanctimonious claim that he is protecting the gospel from the "Devil’s lies" and protecting us all from the "risk of damnation" sounds eerily obsessive and irrational, saying more about himself than anything else.
Here is where you part ways. Spen Lake believes that reworking the memory in order to store the memory in a healing way and to gain truth is actually a deceptive working of the enemy. BJS believes Spen Lake to be obsessive and irrational as a result. I believe that Spen Lake has a sincere love for God’s truth and I believe he deeply feels this exercise promotes lying. Lies are indeed a working of the enemy but I don’t think this is what Dr. Boyd’s book is promoting. It is not lying or deceiving but rather reframing a memory in order to store it in a way that won’t continue to cause damage. I believe there is simply a difference in how much Spen Lake will allow the Holy Spirit to do in healing in someone’s memory. I do not see this as irrational but rather a different perception and interpretation of the bible. I think we may have to agree to disagree.
And that’s my two cents.
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quest for truth
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Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/11/2004 9:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
There was no repentance of sins or acknowledgement of being a sinner, just accusations made against another party
Spen Lake, I am confused on this statement. What is it that the little Greg should have repented of? How was Greg a sinner in this scenario? Greg did, after the healing of the memory, forgive his Grandma for discrediting his person. Little boys can sometimes be creative and hyper -- this is no sin to repent of. God made each of us uniquely and children are meant to explore. It is the loving approach of the parent that assists the child in understanding the world. When parents or grandparents miss the mark on parenting (sin) they can cause severe damage to the precious child that God created and loved. I do not beleive a little boy could know between sinning or not -- this is something they learn from their parents or guardians. Many children challenge their world because this is a part of exploring.... How is it that Greg was a sinner in this event? | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/11/2004 9:55 AM (GMT -6) | | My experience with "healing of the memories" or whatever you may call it, happened quite unexpectedly while in prayer several years ago now. I had never read a book on "healing of the memories" or "healing of the mind." I was a voracious student of the Bible (and still am), and I was desperately seeking God for direction in my life when God chose to reveal to me (through a series of visions that I perceived as suspended in mid-air in front of me, not unlike a holographic image) people whom I had held grudges against for years (and had even forgotten that I held a grudge against them), sins that I had not repented of and was still practicing, and wrong attitudes that I had developed over the years.
As people's faces appeared before me, I felt the love of Christ washing over me and the Spirit telling me to forgive, one by one. It was as if a great weight was being lifted off my shoulders as the Lord led me to forgive each of these people from the heart.
Also, the Lord showed me many events in my past in which I had felt all alone and as if God didn't care about me. As each event came into view in the vision, the Holy Spirit assured me that he had been right there watching over me and protecting me.
There were many more things the Lord graciously revealed to me and healed in me that wonderful day, but I mention the above simply to give some background as to why I have absolutely no problem with Dr. Boyd's methodology as described in the book. Though I personally was no consciously seeking anything but God himself when this revelation happened to me, it is not clear why it would be wrong for someone to seek to get God's perspective on their past emotional and metnal injuries or disappointments.
To have the mind of Christ, we must let Him cleanse our minds from old ways of thinking, including old ways that may be merely a reaction to old emotional trauma.
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind in stayed on thee, because he trusteth in thee. (Is. 26:3)
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/11/2004 10:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
There was no repentance of sins or acknowledgement of being a sinner, just accusations made against another party
Spen Lake, I am confused on this statement. What is it that the little Greg should have repented of? How was Greg a sinner in this scenario? Greg did, after the healing of the memory, forgive his Grandma for discrediting his person. Little boys can sometimes be creative and hyper -- this is no sin to repent of. God made each of us uniquely and children are meant to explore. It is the loving approach of the parent that assists the child in understanding the world. When parents or grandparents miss the mark on parenting (sin) they can cause severe damage to the precious child that God created and loved. I do not beleive a little boy could know between sinning or not -- this is something they learn from their parents or guardians. Many children challenge their world because this is a part of exploring.... How is it that Greg was a sinner in this event?
Quest,
Sinners repent of their sins. We are all sinners and in repenting and believing in the atonement of Christ, we find freedom. It was in this context that I stated, "There was no repentance of sins or acknowledgement of being a sinner, just accusations made against another party." I think that is there isn't such a strong place in scriptures to defend oneself and condemn the authorities that God has placed over us, and call it resting in Christ. Coming to the realisation that a party's action is wrong isn't the same as creating a false replacement event to experience Jesus and myself actually accusing the offending party of their actions. Name one time where the Bible supports chiildren speaking this way to parents? I can, however, think of many examples to the contrary, of apologies being made to abusive chief priests by Christians who inadvertantly rebuked them.
Even so, as you pointed out, I don't think what I wrote was very clear. I wasn't accusing the boy of some specific sin, just of being a sinner in as much as Dr. Boyd tells us that he wasn't a Christian until he was 17 years old. Sinners find freedom in repenting and believing in Christ.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
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| Posted 5/11/2004 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | John Earp quote:
To have the mind of Christ, we must let Him cleanse our minds from old ways of thinking, including old ways that may be merely a reaction to old emotional trauma
John, thank you for sharing that! I don’t think Spen Lake has a problem with the type of healing event you had. I think Spen Lake is in agreement with many others in the type of healing event you experienced because it didn't change any event from the past but just brought in the truth from the bible.
I agree that God is the one who does the cleansing as we allow and participate in the healing process. God's desire is for his children to be free from the bondage of darkness. What a beautiful way he worked in your memories!
Spen Lake quote:
Coming to the realisation that a party's action is wrong isn't the same as creating a false replacement event to experience Jesus and myself actually accusing the offending party of their actions. Name one time where the Bible supports chiildren speaking this way to parents? I can, however, think of many examples to the contrary, of apologies being made to abusive chief priests by Christians who inadvertantly rebuked them.
I think the problem in communication we are having is in the method. Is it possible that some people use the imagination and daydreaming to help them cope with life? Is this sin? Perhaps the difference between you and a person like Dr. Boyd is that he relies more on all of his senses to experience Christ while you rely on logic.
Here’s an example and I’d be interested to know if you think this is sin. The reason I ask is because it is created in my mind and not biblical. Sometimes when I read the bible I imagine myself having been in the situation. This helps me to enter into really getting into what the bible is reporting. I do this with other books and movies too. For instance, when I read about Jesus speaking to the crowd I imagine myself sitting in the crowd. I picture this in my mind. I hear Jesus’ voice speaking the words. Sometimes I can even smell the air and feel the gentle breeze. This helps me to enter into what Jesus is speaking. I use my imagination to help me bring to life something that is on the page. Of course I wasn’t sitting in the crowd when Jesus spoke so would you classify that as sinning?
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/11/2004 12:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Qwest,
quote:
Qwest asks, Here’s an example and I’d be interested to know if you think this is sin. The reason I ask is because it is created in my mind and not biblical. Sometimes when I read the bible I imagine myself having been in the situation. This helps me to enter into really getting into what the bible is reporting. I do this with other books and movies too. For instance, when I read about Jesus speaking to the crowd I imagine myself sitting in the crowd. I picture this in my mind. I hear Jesus’ voice speaking the words. Sometimes I can even smell the air and feel the gentle breeze. This helps me to enter into what Jesus is speaking. I use my imagination to help me bring to life something that is on the page. Of course I wasn’t sitting in the crowd when Jesus spoke so would you classify that as sinning?
This doesn't seem like sin in that you are not calling it more than what you think it is, you using your imagination. Imagining things isn't a sin, nor is it even delusion. As a culture we value people with imagination and their creativity to express ideas, concepts, music, art, etc. I appreciate imagination and creativity. This is much different than claiming my imagination is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the people that I find there include the real Son of God. Saying that you imagine things is far different than you claiming that your imagination and the experiences you build there are "resting in Christ."
Dr. Boyd claims that He is experiencing the real Jesus Himself, for real, with five spritual senses. Forget the issue if we really HAVE five real imaginary senses. Claiming that my imagination gives me the real Jesus that I experience is a strong thing to say. Futher claiming that the events that happen there are inspired by the Holy Spirit and "true" and that we find freedom in them even when they are false, this is also a strong claim. In your example, I didn't see you do this. I also didn't see any of this in John Earp's experience. And, you are right, I didn't see "false" anti-events bringing John freedom. As he expressed it in his post, it was understanding what was always true and already revealed in the Bible. The content of what we believe is important. He never claimed that false history led him to freedom. It didn't seem to me that he claimed more than what was there. It sounded more like the application of the truth of the gospel to real events that re-working them with phony history. I have no problem with his example and am grateful that he seemed to come to a better understanding of the gospel. The Holy Spirit had never abandoned him, even if He had allowed John to experience various trials and pain. This is true for John, and all Christians.
Now, Quest, if you believed that you actually WERE in those stories you were reading about I would think differently. Perhaps you can see them so clear in your mind that you begin to believe that you were there in a prior life or something. This would be different. If you insisted on believing that you were there and you found comfort in believing this, I would call you deluded. You may be comforted and sincere, but you would be deluded. You weren't there to experience Jesus in the flesh. "Though we don't see Him, we believe." You fall into this category along with every other living Christian.
I see nothing wrong in imagining ourselves in places that we read of or as taking part in a story, fiction or otherwise, as long as we don't claim it is God's inspiriation and truth. I see much wrong in claiming our imaginations of false history are inspired by the Holy Spirit and is resting in Christ. To this I say, bunk.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
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| Posted 5/11/2004 12:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Might-be-don quote:
This is a great example of *receiving* healing from God. This is not a example of molding images to produce what is thought would bring rest.
What exactly do you mean by the statement “molding images to produce what is thought would bring rest”? Anytime a person is brought closer to Jesus Christ and the truth will find that there is rest in clinging to his promises.
Spen Lake quote:
I see nothing wrong in imagining ourselves in places that we read of or as taking part in a story, fiction or otherwise, as long as we don't claim it is God's inspiriation and truth. I see much wrong in claiming our imaginations of false history are inspired by the Holy Spirit and is resting in Christ. To this I say, bunk
I wish Dr. Boyd could speak for himself here because I am interpreting him not to be implying that in his going back to the event in his imagination that he REALLY went back in time. He went back in prayer and invited Jesus along with him. He opened the curtain further on the picture frame (so to speak) in his mind and saw more to the story line. I do not think Dr. Boyd actually believes that what he has now created has in reality taken the place of the prior event. If we could ask the people who experienced this with him I bet they would interpret what took place a little differently but would not report that the new picture in Dr. Boyd's mind actually happened. This is between God and Greg. He shared this special prayer time with God to encourage others to invite Jesus into the pain. I do not interpret that Dr. Boyd really believes he has the power to go back in time and relive an event. I believe he knows that this is all imagination. I do believe that the Holy Spirit can influence our thoughts and in so doing influence what we create in our imagination.
The false history that you keep suggesting is NOT history at all. I do not think Dr. Boyd thinks that what he has created is true history. He has just allowed a way for his brain to put to rest the trauma and bring life out of the memory. I also do not really believe that I was in the biblical days but I do believe that experiencing it alive in my mind brings life to the Word. In the same way I believe that Dr. Boyd’s experiencing the event in a different way brings hope out of the hopeless situation. This hope produces in his mind a sense of being loved in the midst of a storm in his life.
Here's the point. Dr. Boyd is not suggesting that he actually went back in time, he is writing that through changing how he remembers the event he is able to let it go into God's hands. God takes our junk and gives us life back.
Dr. Boyd, if you're reading this, you really are invited to defend your book and bring light to the miscommunication we are having here surrounding your healing experience. I feel awkward suggesting what I "think" you would say... | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/11/2004 1:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Might-be-don quote:
This is a great example of *receiving* healing from God. This is not a example of molding images to produce what is thought would bring rest.
What exactly do you mean by the statement “molding images to produce what is thought would bring rest”? Anytime a person is brought closer to Jesus Christ and the truth will find that there is rest in clinging to his promises.
Spen Lake quote:
I see nothing wrong in imagining ourselves in places that we read of or as taking part in a story, fiction or otherwise, as long as we don't claim it is God's inspiriation and truth. I see much wrong in claiming our imaginations of false history are inspired by the Holy Spirit and is resting in Christ. To this I say, bunk
I wish Dr. Boyd could speak for himself here because I am interpreting him not to be implying that in his going back to the event in his imagination that he REALLY went back in time. He went back in prayer and invited Jesus along with him. He opened the curtain further on the picture frame (so to speak) in his mind and saw more to the story line. I do not think Dr. Boyd actually believes that what he has now created has in reality taken the place of the prior event and no other person who was involved would say that, what the Holy Spirit helped him create to replace the pain, actually took place. I do not interpret that Dr. Boyd really believes he has the power to go back in time and relive an event. I believe he knows that this is all imagination. I do believe that the Holy Spirit can influence our thoughts and in so doing influence what we create in our imagination.
The false history that you keep suggesting is NOT history at all. I do not think Dr. Boyd thinks that what he has created is true history. He has just allowed a way for his brain to put to rest the trauma and bring life out of the memory. I also do not really believe that I was in the biblical days but I do believe that experiencing it alive in my mind brings life to the Word. In the same way I believe that Dr. Boyd’s experiencing the event in a different way brings hope out of the hopeless situation. This hope produces in his mind a sense of being loved in the midst of a storm in his life.
Here's the point. Dr. Boyd is not suggesting that he actually went back in time, he is writing that through changing how he remembers the event he is able to let it go into God's hands. God takes our junk and gives us life back.
Dr. Boyd, if you're reading this, you really are invited to defend your book and bring light to the miscommunication we are having here surrounding your healing experience. I feel awkward suggesting what I "think" you would say...
Quest,
The issue is not so much Dr. Boyd actually believes he goes back in time or not. It is that he believes that the Holy Spirit inspires false replacement stories to re-work our memories and calls it resting in Christ. He claims that he experiences Jesus in Spirit-inspired false-stories. If he wants to defend his book and his example with scriptures to back his example of finding freedom through the false, I too welcome him.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/11/2004 5:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If he wants to defend his book and his example with scriptures to back his example of finding freedom through the false, I too welcome him.
Paging Dr. Boyd?  | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/12/2004 3:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
The issue is not so much Dr. Boyd actually believes he goes back in time or not. It is that he believes that the Holy Spirit inspires false replacement stories to re-work our memories and calls it resting in Christ. He claims that he experiences Jesus in Spirit-inspired false-stories. If he wants to defend his book and his example with scriptures to back his example of finding freedom through the false, I too welcome him.
Hi,
I will add something on this thread, since I've experienced the healing and transformation of what Dr Boyd calls cataphatic prayer (something I hadn't ever heard of until Seeing is Believing). I am on chapter 9 of the book and still have not seen a single place where Dr Boyd claims that this kind of "resting in Christ" experience replaces what happened in the past. I do see where the Holy Spirit replaces a lie with the truth. It is the enemy who lies to us about who the Father is and who we are in Him. He is the accuser of the brethren. The enemy was using this wounding experience to accuse Dr Boyd, to whisper lies to him about his worth. Few believers spend that kind of time in prayer. When you do, you will be rewarded (not you personally Spen, but all of us, as believers). Dr Boyd made it a priority, a discipline in his life, and the Holy Spirit did not disappoint him. James tells us that if we draw near to Him, that He will draw near to us. That is His promise to us. He does not "draw near" and leave us the same. He heals, restores, transforms.
Spen, what is your picture of the Father? He looks just like Jesus to me, the same Jesus that told the disciples to "let the children come to me." He, above all, knows Dr Boyd's heart. You are asking Dr Boyd to repent of sharing His personal experience of healing. You are asking him to repent of a method that is not His, but is the Holy Spirit's.
Why aren't you asking questions like, "What difference did this make in his life?" If it brought healing, and exchanged the deception (the lie) of the enemy (replaced it) for the truth (which prompted him to forgive his grandmother, and ultimately healed him of this wounding experience. He never once says that the experience did not happen.
God set me free from my own wounding experience through such a vision (which I shared with the board under the Ethics thread). I can still recall the events. They were not replaced, except in the sense that I no longer live in fear. I know who the Father is and who I am in Him. I have forgiven those who hurt me. I am healed and set free.
Spen, doesn't this look like Jesus to you? If it is not Jesus who sets us free, then who is it? Who does it look like to you? Can you look at this experience that was shared in Seeing is Believing and say, "This an enemy has done?" I, for one, would not be so bold as to claim that healing and transformation in the life of a brother or sister, was "false" and if false, then WHO gave him this vision? What purpose would the enemy have in doing this? Would the enemy give us a vision that would bring "false transformation" or "false healing" or "false forgiveness?"
Please consider what it is you are saying. Is Seeing is Believing the only book you have read of Dr Boyd's? He humbly states in another book that theology is not worth dividing Christians over. He believes that love is more important than being right. I do not see one single place where Dr Boyd replaces the gospel message. This is not a gospel message, except that it proclaims the good news of the healing and transforming power of the gospel, through the work of the Holy Spirit. It begins the second we invite Him to forgive our sins and believe that God raised Him from the dead, and continues until we know Him fully, as we are fully known.
What is sad to me in all of this, is that some may not read Seeing is Believing. The book is inspiring. If it inspires one believer to pray, then it has had an eternal impact. I do not know Dr Boyd personally, as many here seem to. I have no reason to "defend him to the death," and I'm sure he wouldn't want me to, but I respect him as a brother in Christ and I find these comments about him to be very sad indeed.
You may not agree with the method he says that the Holy Spirit took in bringing about healing and forgiveness and transformation, but, we all agree that Jesus Christ does that in our lives, and He does it differently. Dr Boyd states that there is "no formula" and only suggests that this may be a way of praying that will help us to "rest in Christ" (in the knowledge of who He is and who we are in Him, in His presence). Don't you think, Spen, that there are "bigger fish to fry" than Dr Boyd? I'm wondering how familiar you are with his other books? Do you know him? Why do you seem relentless in criticizing him?
By the way Spen. I recall the post where Dr Boyd replied to you under the "mormon" thread. He was, in a lighthearted, but sincere and honest way, letting you know that he did not have the time to devote to discussing this with you. I did not see him poking fun at you. There is a way to get your point across graciously, to "take the high road" and that is what I observed.
John, thank you for sharing how the Holy Spirit brought healing to your life. I appreciate that.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/12/2004 5:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
Why a red plane? How can I be sure that using the image of a red plane instead of a blue car will produce the desired results?
Personally, I have always found a black plane worked best for me.
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