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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/12/2004 5:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
quote:
Originally posted by quest for truthWhat exactly do you mean by the statement “molding images to produce what is thought would bring rest”?
Why a red plane? How can I be sure that using the image of a red plane instead of a blue car will produce the desired results? In John's example we have the Spirit of God providing the images, not our imagination.
My resting in God comes as a result of my knowing Him. His sacrifice, His promises, His steadfast love. "... to know Him".
In the middle of my greatest time of torment I turned to my pastor for answers, he told me "Trust God". It wasn't what I was wanting to hear, I wanted a "word from the Lord" . But "Trust God" was something I learned to do ( don't get me wrong, I'm far from perfect at it ) , it was a hard lesson but has served me well.
peace, don
You're right. It doesn't matter what colour the plane is. That wasn't the point (although he does care about the desires of our heart, however insignificant they may seem to others, and perhaps Dr Boyd loved red as a child. Who knows).
When my mom was dying of cancer, she had one miraculous day (that she asked Jesus for, and which I wrote about in my book) where she was able to sit in a restaurant on Mother's day with us. As we were sitting there, a pianist stepped up to the grand piano, sat down, and began to play "Moon River." It was my mom's favourite song. I believe God was letting her know that He cared about her. Something that would be considered insignificant to others became evidence to her of His great love for her. It was amazing. The God of the Universe cares about the smallest details of our lives (and the biggest). He is totally trustworthy. He is worthy of all the praise we have to offer Him and so much more. (Got carried away there, but He inspires me).
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/12/2004 8:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Might-be-don quote:
My resting in God comes as a result of my knowing Him. His sacrifice, His promises, His steadfast love. "... to know Him".
In the middle of my greatest time of torment I turned to my pastor for answers, he told me "Trust God". It wasn't what I was wanting to hear, I wanted a "word from the Lord" . But "Trust God" was something I learned to do ( don't get me wrong, I'm far from perfect at it ) , it was a hard lesson but has served me well.
Thank you for your answer. You may not be able to enter into the kind of healing that is mentioned in the book and I think that’s cool. God works with us individually. I believe people experience and come to know God in their own unique ways. For some, restoring what the devil stole and healing wounded memories is needed before they can truly trust God. I know the Holy Spirit can work miraculously with a person where they do not have to have old memories healed but I also know the Holy Spirit sometimes allows the person to do this through prayer, counseling, imagery (such as Dr. Boyd writes about), and I further know that if it is the working of the Holy Spirit the end result is a restored soul with the truth.
How did/are you learning to do “Trusting God”? I’d be interested to learn.
Moon River J quote:
When my mom was dying of cancer, she had one miraculous day (that she asked Jesus for, and which I wrote about in my book) where she was able to sit in a restaurant on Mother's day with us. As we were sitting there, a pianist stepped up to the grand piano, sat down, and began to play "Moon River." It was my mom's favourite song. I believe God was letting her know that He cared about her. Something that would be considered insignificant to others became evidence to her of His great love for her. It was amazing. The God of the Universe cares about the smallest details of our lives (and the biggest). He is totally trustworthy. He is worthy of all the praise we have to offer Him and so much more. (Got carried away there, but He inspires me).
That was a beautiful gift your mom was given! This explains why moon river j -- how sweet. The God of the universe cares so much about the smallest details of our lives that he’s counted every hair on our heads. The majestic creator of the universe cares about each of us -- that is love!
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/12/2004 12:59 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
The issue is not so much Dr. Boyd actually believes he goes back in time or not. It is that he believes that the Holy Spirit inspires false replacement stories to re-work our memories and calls it resting in Christ. He claims that he experiences Jesus in Spirit-inspired false-stories. If he wants to defend his book and his example with scriptures to back his example of finding freedom through the false, I too welcome him.
Hi,
I will add something on this thread, since I've experienced the healing and transformation of what Dr Boyd calls cataphatic prayer (something I hadn't ever heard of until Seeing is Believing). I am on chapter 9 of the book and still have not seen a single place where Dr Boyd claims that this kind of "resting in Christ" experience replaces what happened in the past. I do see where the Holy Spirit replaces a lie with the truth. It is the enemy who lies to us about who the Father is and who we are in Him. He is the accuser of the brethren. The enemy was using this wounding experience to accuse Dr Boyd, to whisper lies to him about his worth. Few believers spend that kind of time in prayer. When you do, you will be rewarded (not you personally Spen, but all of us, as believers). Dr Boyd made it a priority, a discipline in his life, and the Holy Spirit did not disappoint him. James tells us that if we draw near to Him, that He will draw near to us. That is His promise to us. He does not "draw near" and leave us the same. He heals, restores, transforms.
Spen, what is your picture of the Father? He looks just like Jesus to me, the same Jesus that told the disciples to "let the children come to me." He, above all, knows Dr Boyd's heart. You are asking Dr Boyd to repent of sharing His personal experience of healing. You are asking him to repent of a method that is not His, but is the Holy Spirit's.
Why aren't you asking questions like, "What difference did this make in his life?" If it brought healing, and exchanged the deception (the lie) of the enemy (replaced it) for the truth (which prompted him to forgive his grandmother, and ultimately healed him of this wounding experience. He never once says that the experience did not happen.
God set me free from my own wounding experience through such a vision (which I shared with the board under the Ethics thread). I can still recall the events. They were not replaced, except in the sense that I no longer live in fear. I know who the Father is and who I am in Him. I have forgiven those who hurt me. I am healed and set free.
Spen, doesn't this look like Jesus to you? If it is not Jesus who sets us free, then who is it? Who does it look like to you? Can you look at this experience that was shared in Seeing is Believing and say, "This an enemy has done?" I, for one, would not be so bold as to claim that healing and transformation in the life of a brother or sister, was "false" and if false, then WHO gave him this vision? What purpose would the enemy have in doing this? Would the enemy give us a vision that would bring "false transformation" or "false healing" or "false forgiveness?"
Please consider what it is you are saying. Is Seeing is Believing the only book you have read of Dr Boyd's? He humbly states in another book that theology is not worth dividing Christians over. He believes that love is more important than being right. I do not see one single place where Dr Boyd replaces the gospel message. This is not a gospel message, except that it proclaims the good news of the healing and transforming power of the gospel, through the work of the Holy Spirit. It begins the second we invite Him to forgive our sins and believe that God raised Him from the dead, and continues until we know Him fully, as we are fully known.
What is sad to me in all of this, is that some may not read Seeing is Believing. The book is inspiring. If it inspires one believer to pray, then it has had an eternal impact. I do not know Dr Boyd personally, as many here seem to. I have no reason to "defend him to the death," and I'm sure he wouldn't want me to, but I respect him as a brother in Christ and I find these comments about him to be very sad indeed.
You may not agree with the method he says that the Holy Spirit took in bringing about healing and forgiveness and transformation, but, we all agree that Jesus Christ does that in our lives, and He does it differently. Dr Boyd states that there is "no formula" and only suggests that this may be a way of praying that will help us to "rest in Christ" (in the knowledge of who He is and who we are in Him, in His presence). Don't you think, Spen, that there are "bigger fish to fry" than Dr Boyd? I'm wondering how familiar you are with his other books? Do you know him? Why do you seem relentless in criticizing him?
By the way Spen. I recall the post where Dr Boyd replied to you under the "mormon" thread. He was, in a lighthearted, but sincere and honest way, letting you know that he did not have the time to devote to discussing this with you. I did not see him poking fun at you. There is a way to get your point across graciously, to "take the high road" and that is what I observed.
John, thank you for sharing how the Holy Spirit brought healing to your life. I appreciate that.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
Jo-Anne,
You say, "I do see where the Holy Spirit replaces a lie with the truth. It is the enemy who lies to us about who the Father is and who we are in Him." A false replacement historical event is not the truth. A false replacement story IS a lie. We do not come to the Father through lies. If you believe that we do, show me a scripture. I have quoted the passages in the book where Dr. Boyd claims that the Holy Spirit inspired a false replacement history. I am neither making it up nor exagerating. He never did receive a red plane that day. He never did actually accuse his grandmother of being bad that day. These events were not true nor were they factual.
You also say, "Spen, what is your picture of the Father? He looks just like Jesus to me, the same Jesus that told the disciples to "let the children come to me." He, above all, knows Dr Boyd's heart. You are asking Dr Boyd to repent of sharing His personal experience of healing. You are asking him to repent of a method that is not His, but is the Holy Spirit's." The Father IS truth and doesn't create false replacement stories for us to experience to find freedom. He planned and completed for us a true story of the death and resurrection of His Son that we believe and find freedom in. I am asking Dr. Boyd to repent of claiming that the Holy Spirit inspires false history to rework our memories and calling it resting in Christ. I am doing this because it isn't biblical.
You state, "Please consider what it is you are saying. Is Seeing is Believing the only book you have read of Dr Boyd's? He humbly states in another book that theology is not worth dividing Christians over. He believes that love is more important than being right." I am not speaking about his other books here. They are not relevant to the issue. A mistake in this one is not justified by a good comment in another. If Dr. Boyd isn't concerned about the truth in this book alone, this is a concern. If he is concerned about the truth and not about being right, then repenting of a bad mistake in this book shouldn't be difficult for him. It would hardly be "loving" to teach those who follow him that resting in Christ is to be found in experiencing false history. That would be a defective love, one to be repented of and corrected.
You say, "Dr Boyd states that there is "no formula" and only suggests that this may be a way of praying that will help us to "rest in Christ" (in the knowledge of who He is and who we are in Him, in His presence)." I believe that the following quotations from his book do present a kind of formula, he calls them exercises.quote:
Page 97, "More specifically, this chapter will be concerned mostly with offering guidlines to one form of imaginative prayer. I call it "resting in Christ" because it emphasizes our fundamental need to rest in the truth - the truth of who Christ is and the truth of who we are in Christ - and to do so regardless of where we are spiritually....It is , I belive, an exercise that is foundational to our spiritual growth."
Page 102, "I am not an expert on the devotional traditions of the church, but of the forms of prayer and meditation I am familiar with, the practice of imaginatively encountering Jesus, of "resting in Christ" has been by far the most accessible and most powerful for me."
Page 104, "For the resting in Christ exercise to be of any real value, it is absolutely crucial that we commit to its being a time of rest."
Page 111, "This brings us to the goal of the resting in Christ exercise. It is to experience Jesus."
You write, "You may not agree with the method he says that the Holy Spirit took in bringing about healing and forgiveness and transformation, but, we all agree that Jesus Christ does that in our lives, and He does it differently." The Spirit of Truth DOES NOT bring truth through lies of false replacement stories to rework our memories. This is not different, it is wrong. No lie is of the truth, none, nada. It really concerns me that you cannot seem to grasp that there is right and wrong and truth and false. The ends does not justify the means. The wide gate is not the narrow gate. A warm feeling of comfort found through the false is NOT the same as a true comfort built upon the truth of the cross and the death of Jesus for our sins. You cannot have false content and call it truth.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/12/2004 1:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
You say, "I do see where the Holy Spirit replaces a lie with the truth. It is the enemy who lies to us about who the Father is and who we are in Him." A false replacement historical event is not the truth. A false replacement story IS a lie. We do not come to the Father through lies. If you believe that we do, show me a scripture. I have quoted the passages in the book where Dr. Boyd claims that the Holy Spirit inspired a false replacement history.
This is simply untrue. Talk about a "false replacement history!" Boyd never once "claims that the Holy Spirit inspired a false replacement history." This is simply your view of Boyd's description of what occurred in his IMAGINATION.
quote:
I am neither making it up nor exagerating. He never did receive a red plane that day. He never did actually accuse his grandmother of being bad that day. These events were not true nor were they factual.
Duh. Yes you ARE exaggerating, spen. Doc and others including me have answered you already about this, but you seem to refuse to see what we have been saying. Boyd advocates the use of one's IMAGINATION (not "false history," as you claim) to APPLY the truth of Jesus Christ by inviting Him into the hurtful memory. In the book, Dr. Boyd does not advocate REPLACING the past historical event (which would in fact be totally impossible); what he advocates is inviting Jesus Christ into one's memory of the event, and asking Him to heal this pain.
John,
You claim, "Boyd advocates the use of one's IMAGINATION to APPLY the truth of Jesus Christ by inviting Him into the hurtful memory." While I don't think I believe that Dr. Boyd is saying this, your words here seem to imply that:
- we can either imagine the real Jesus into our hurt memory by believing our imagination is a force or power we can use that can manipulate God or force Him into a hurtful memory.
- or that we can imagine that that we invite Jesus into a hurtful memory but we actually only imagine that He comes. He isn't realy there and we are only deluding ourselves.
I think that we have impressions and feelings that are given to us by the Holy Spirits, other spirits, and our own imaginations. We apply the truth of Jesus Christ by understanding what the scriptures say about Him and believing it is true, even for us, regardless of our feelings.
You state, "In the book, Dr. Boyd does not advocate REPLACING the past historical event (which would in fact be totally impossible); what he advocates is inviting Jesus Christ into one's memory of the event, and asking Him to heal this pain." The example that Dr. Boyd gives has him "reworking" his memory by spiritually experiencing a fictional false event instead the factual history. This, to me, would be an attempt to replace the historical memory with a false story, at least temporarily, to feel or have some emotional/spiritual experience. If the false story isn't required, why does his Jesus enter it and why does Dr. Boyd tell us that the Holy Spirit inspired it? Does Jesus use false stories to bring healing? If Jesus, who is the Truth, uses false stories to bring healing, I would like you to show me this in black and white. I only know that the Jesus that Dr. Boyd imagines does this, we don't find the Jesus in scriptures calling men "good," encouraging children to rebuke their elders or authorities, or reworking memories with false stories.
Dr. Boyd advocates an imaginary spiritual Jesus that is inconsistent with the Jesus of the Bible, another Jesus of his own imagination. He doesn't confess the Jesus who came in the flesh, who is now sitting at the right hand of God with a body that bears the marks of the cross, one that we can touch. He doesn't confess finding freedom to forgive his grandmother in the work of this Jesus of the flesh, but in false stories inspiried by a spiritual imagined Jesus. This doesn't meet the criteria given in 1 John 4:1.
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."
Spen Lake
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/12/2004 2:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen, the title is:
Seeing Is Believing: Experience Jesus Through Imaginative Prayer
Uh...HELLoh?! | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/12/2004 3:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Imagination that seeks to be therapeutic of a person's past traumas (such as Boyd describes in the book), while it may get into a gray area between fiction and reality, does not involve, as you put it, "belief in a false event," or "anti-events."
What it involves is imagining WHAT IF Jesus were there with me? (Which you surely admit He was).
While the details may be the result of one's own imagination, it is not clear to me how it would be sinful or imagining "a false Jesus" for a Christian who already believes in the Christ revealed in the Gospel and who is already unreservedly submitted to Christ's authority, to simply APPLY the truth that Jesus was in fact there in the midst of this traumatic event. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/12/2004 3:56 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Imagination that seeks to be therapeutic of a person's past traumas (such as Boyd describes in the book), while it may get into a gray area between fiction and reality, does not involve, as you put it, "belief in a false event," or "anti-events."
What it involves is imagining WHAT IF Jesus were there with me? (Which you surely admit He was).
While the details may be the result of one's own imagination, it is not clear to me how it would be sinful or imagining "a false Jesus" for a Christian who already believes in the Christ revealed in the Gospel and who is already unreservedly submitted to Christ's authority, to simply APPLY the truth that Jesus was in fact there in the midst of this traumatic event.
The Jesus that Dr. Boyd describes that met him in his imagination says things and encourages things that the historical Jesus that witnesses documented for us in the scriptures. The true Jesus never called men "good" but clearly stated that He reserved that term for God alone. The real Jesus never encouraged people to rebuke their authorities, especially children. The real Jesus and His witnesses told us that we find the power to forgive others in understanding the God's forgiveness extended to us covering our enourmous debt towards God, not in false stories void of the cross. This is not the Jesus of the Bible, resting in this Christ is not biblical. This is a false imaginary Christ and the one who submits to this "Jesus" as Lord,who is already unreservedly submitted to this Christ's authority, is grouped together with those in Matthew 7:21 who looked at Jesus and imagined Him their Lord. He may be their Jesus in their imaginations, but He didn't know them.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/12/2004 4:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Moon River J quote:
When my mom was dying of cancer, she had one miraculous day (that she asked Jesus for, and which I wrote about in my book) where she was able to sit in a restaurant on Mother's day with us. As we were sitting there, a pianist stepped up to the grand piano, sat down, and began to play "Moon River." It was my mom's favourite song. I believe God was letting her know that He cared about her. Something that would be considered insignificant to others became evidence to her of His great love for her. It was amazing. The God of the Universe cares about the smallest details of our lives (and the biggest). He is totally trustworthy. He is worthy of all the praise we have to offer Him and so much more. (Got carried away there, but He inspires me).
That was a beautiful gift your mom was given! This explains why moon river j -- how sweet. The God of the universe cares so much about the smallest details of our lives that he’s counted every hair on our heads. The majestic creator of the universe cares about each of us -- that is love!
Quest,
You got it! It was a small way of honouring her memory, remembering her. She and I used to sing that song together on long car rides. I still know it by heart!
And, Amen! He does!
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/12/2004 4:09 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
You say, "Dr Boyd states that there is "no formula" and only suggests that this may be a way of praying that will help us to "rest in Christ" (in the knowledge of who He is and who we are in Him, in His presence)." I believe that the following quotations from his book do present a kind of formula, he calls them exercises.quote:
Page 97, "More specifically, this chapter will be concerned mostly with offering guidlines to one form of imaginative prayer. I call it "resting in Christ" because it emphasizes our fundamental need to rest in the truth - the truth of who Christ is and the truth of who we are in Christ - and to do so regardless of where we are spiritually....It is , I belive, an exercise that is foundational to our spiritual growth."
Page 102, "I am not an expert on the devotional traditions of the church, but of the forms of prayer and meditation I am familiar with, the practice of imaginatively encountering Jesus, of "resting in Christ" has been by far the most accessible and most powerful for me."
Page 104, "For the resting in Christ exercise to be of any real value, it is absolutely crucial that we commit to its being a time of rest."
Page 111, "This brings us to the goal of the resting in Christ exercise. It is to experience Jesus."
Dr Boyd is presenting - A Particular Form of Prayer. Have you heard of the Acrostic ACTS ? Adoration, confession, Thanksgiving, Supplication? Sound like a formula? It is A formula, not THE formula.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/12/2004 4:11 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The true Jesus never called men "good" but clearly stated that He reserved that term for God alone.
Really? Hmmm, let's see:
Matthew 12:35 - A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Matthew 13:38 - The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Matthew 25:21 - His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luke 8:15 - But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Jesus directly contradicted himself when He said "there is none good but God," if He meant it strictly literally:
John 10:11 - I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Galatians 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ephesians 5:9 - (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Ephesians 6:8 - Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/12/2004 4:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
1) How can something be a replacement if it's false?
I can replace a document in a file with a forgery.
Or, you can replace a document with an edited (corrected) version. I do this all the time in my job as a transcriptionist.
quote:
3) How can something that is historical be false?
The history that was rewritten by those who wish to alter is is false.
Again, you continue to assume that which you have not proven, spen. Boyd makes it abundantly clear in his book that the ACTUAL event really did happen, and that his technique cannot change the past. (Indeed, nothing can change the past). So it is certainly not "rewriting history," as you allege; it is seeing (imagining) the event AS IF Jesus were there.
Your contentions about this book, spen, to use your own favorite word, are simply BUNK. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/12/2004 4:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
The true Jesus never called men "good" but clearly stated that He reserved that term for God alone.
Really? Hmmm, let's see:
Matthew 12:35 - A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Matthew 13:38 - The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Matthew 25:21 - His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luke 8:15 - But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 10:11 - I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Galatians 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ephesians 5:9 - (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Ephesians 6:8 - Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
Thank you John! Real facts we can work with. It seems I went to far in saying that God calls no man good. I should have qulaified it by adding "unsaved" man or no man "good" on his own. Any goodness found in men is only because God has saved them and the Holy Spirit dwells within them. God alone is good. Sinners and unsaved humanity may be loved, but they aren't good and cannot be "good" without believing in the gospel. ALL of our righteousness come from Christ alone as a free gift. This is the gospel.
Matthew 12:33, tough context to prove that Jesus was calling an unsaved man good. No man's heart is good until he is born again. “You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. “The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Matthew 13:38. The good seed would only be good because of the work Christ had done in them. They were not unsaved. Good was only found in them because of the work of God. The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Matthew 25:21 To be the servant of Christ one must be born again. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Luke 8:15 clearly speaks of the goodness of God being found in a believer. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
John 5:28 is even more clear that the goodness is found only in believers. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 10:11 speaks only of Christ and His goodness, no other man qualifies here. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
2 Corinthians 5:10 One could argue over whether unbelievers could actually do a "good" deed. We know that God considers our righteousness as filthy rags. However, even if they are able to do a good deed, this does not make them "good." For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Galatians 5:22 This verse can only be about Christians. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ephesians 5:9 This also can only be true about Christians. (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Ephesians 6:8 is another passage on good deeds done. Do our deeds make us good? Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
Spen Lake
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/12/2004 4:46 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John 10:11 speaks only of Christ and His goodness, no other man qualifies here. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
But it does directly contradict his "Why calleth thou me good? There is no one good but God alone" statement.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/12/2004 4:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Matthew 12:33, tough context to prove that Jesus was calling an unsaved man good. No man's heart is good until he is born again. “You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. “The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Actually, in context, Jesus is rebuking a particular group of men who were speaking evil of Him (the Pharisees). They were saying he cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub. These are the ones he is calling a brood of vipers (just as John the Baptist had).
Matthew 3:7 - But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matthew 12:34 - O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. (Addressed to the scribes and Pharisees).
Matthew 23:33 - Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Addressed to the scribes and Pharisees)
Also, concerning children, why would Jesus say, "Of such is the kingdom of God" if they were in fact condemned, wicked, evil criminals against God's law, worthy of nothing but damnation?
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