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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/12/2004 7:39 PM (GMT -6) |   |
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John 10:11 speaks only of Christ and His goodness, no other man qualifies here. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Spen,
Thank you for reminding me of the shepherd. John 9:4,5 "When he has brought his own sheep outside, he walks on before them and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. They will never [on any account] follow a stranger, but will run away from him because they do not know the voice of strangers or recognize their call." Jesus himself used imagery constantly to help His disciples understand. "So Jesus said again, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that I Myself am the Door for the sheep. (vs 7) "I am the Door; anyone who enters in through Me will be saved (will live). He will come in and he will go out [freely], and will find pasture." (vs.9)
And finally, La Piece de Resistance, "The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that theymay have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance (to the full, till it overflows)." vs 10
Ah, the "litmus test" of truth!
Spen, I urge you to consider the TRUTH of these verses. At some point you need to trust that the sheep really have spent enough time around the shepherd to know His voice and follow Him. The shepherd would break the legs of a wayward sheep and carry him on his shoulders, until the sheep had been there long enough to know and love His voice and follow. Trust, Spen. We're talking about a brother who spends time with the shepherd.
 [We're having a power outage in 20 minutes)
'Nite and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/12/2004 9:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne quote:
[We're having a power outage in 20 minutes)
That must be held at 1 in the morning. What is a power outreage? It sounds interesting.
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/13/2004 3:28 AM (GMT -6) | | might-be-don quote:
Trusting God has usually meant in my life remembering that I walk daily in eternity. I dwell in God's kingdom of righteousness , peace and joy even when I'm waiting for the outcome of surgery on my wife. Trusting God means being anxious for nothing and being content in whatever situation I find myself in
WOW! That is an incredible way to view your day to day walk with God -- looking at what lies ahead in order to put the worries of today in perspective. Our prize is not temporal but eternal as we press ahead -- this is a great truth to claim . Too often I have found myself worried or anxious in the here and now. I like the way you framed your worry and anxiety. I will remember this the next time I began to get too caught in the present moment of worry....
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/13/2004 5:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
How did/are you learning to do “Trusting God”? I’d be interested to learn.
Trusting God has usually meant in my life remembering that I walk daily in eternity. I dwell in God's kingdom of righteousness , peace and joy even when I'm waiting for the outcome of surgery on my wife. Trusting God means being anxious for nothing and being content in whatever situation I find myself in ( remembering that it's only a very small slice of eternity ). Trusting God more often than not means not letting my imagination run wild and reminding myself that God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of love and of power and of a sound mind.
Hope that helps...
peace, don
Don, thank you for sharing how you view eternity and how you "do" trusting God. To me, trusting God is being, it's abiding, but it's also looking at eternity as you said. It puts our life into perspective, an eternal perspective. That doesn't mean we won't worry at times, or experience gut wrenching pain, or get sick, but it certainly helps that we have hope in Him and an understanding of the kingdom we're in.
I, too, do not let my imagination run wild (well, most times), but are you contrasting this with experiencing Jesus through imaginative prayer? I see that differently. That is imagination that is inspired, in the form of visions and dreams, by the Holy Spirit. I "do" trusting that way as well. The Holy Spirit speaks to us in so many ways, all wonderful, and relevant.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/13/2004 10:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Getting back to the question, why does she have to be led by any spirit? Why couldn't she have chosen to sin on her own? Do you beleive that every action is led by one spirit or the other? I believe that there are only two kingdoms, but I believe that we can and do choose to sin on our own.
According to Orthodox doctrine there is no middle road between God and Satan. Ultimately, and at any given moment, man is either with God or the devil, serving one or the other. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/13/2004 11:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Getting back to the question, why does she have to be led by any spirit? Why couldn't she have chosen to sin on her own? Do you beleive that every action is led by one spirit or the other? I believe that there are only two kingdoms, but I believe that we can and do choose to sin on our own.
According to Orthodox doctrine there is no middle road between God and Satan. Ultimately, and at any given moment, man is either with God or the devil, serving one or the other.
Sparky,
I am not advocating a "third" kingdom. I believe that there are only two kingdoms. I don't believe, however, that every decision that we make has to be directed and inspired by a spirit. We choose to sin because of our OWN lusts. This is what James explains to us. The "devil didn't make us do it," because we chose to do it ourselves. We either serve God or the devil, but neither one MAKES us serve. We serve out of our hearts and the desires that are found there. A renewed heart that is given to us by God seeks to serve God. Without God and on our own, we seek to serve ourselves and, thus participate in and serve the kingdom of Satan.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/13/2004 12:07 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
You say, "Also, concerning children, why would Jesus say, "Of such is the kingdom of God" if they were in fact condemned, wicked, evil criminals against God's law, worthy of nothing but damnation?" What is it about children that you believe Jesus is speaking about? What quality do they have, what did the children posess, that made Jesus say, "of such is the kingdom of God." Was it that they were righteous before God? Was it that they were sinnless? Was it that they could boldy approach the father on their own, confident in their right standing before God because they were children?
What do you think this means?
Spen Lake
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/13/2004 12:54 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John,
You say, "Also, concerning children, why would Jesus say, "Of such is the kingdom of God" if they were in fact condemned, wicked, evil criminals against God's law, worthy of nothing but damnation?" What is it about children that you believe Jesus is speaking about? What quality do they have, what did the children posess, that made Jesus say, "of such is the kingdom of God." Was it that they were righteous before God? Was it that they were sinnless? Was it that they could boldy approach the father on their own, confident in their right standing before God because they were children?
What do you think this means?
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/13/2004 1:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John,
You say, "Also, concerning children, why would Jesus say, "Of such is the kingdom of God" if they were in fact condemned, wicked, evil criminals against God's law, worthy of nothing but damnation?" What is it about children that you believe Jesus is speaking about? What quality do they have, what did the children posess, that made Jesus say, "of such is the kingdom of God." Was it that they were righteous before God? Was it that they were sinnless? Was it that they could boldy approach the father on their own, confident in their right standing before God because they were children?
What do you think this means?
I asked my question first.
John,
I think that the answer is found in Matthew 18:3, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. “Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."
Children are not able to fend for themselves and are dependent. This dependence and acknowledging their helplessness seems to be the issue Jesus was addressing regarding children. He states it directly when He states, "whoevern himbles himself as this child." This is the quality he has singled out Himself. In the passage below found in 1 Peter we see the same concepts highlighted between the young and the elders. We are to clothe ourselves with humility towards another because God opposes the proud and gives grace (the free gift of forgiving grace) to the humble. Like helpless children we humble ourselves under His mighty hand, casting all of our anxieties upon Him because He cares for us. Children looking to their Father to care for them and sheep looking to their shepherd.
1 Peter 1:5, "You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE. Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time, casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you."
This is consistent with Matthew 19:14, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
And Mark 10:13, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. “Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
Thus, to answer your question, John, I believe that the kingdom belongs to "such as these" not because they were "righteous" but because they humbled themselves before Him in acknowledgment of their neediness and received the grace of God, entering into the kingdom by His grace alone. They received the grace of God as a child because they had nothing to contribute, they were needy and helpess as stated in Matthew 18:3. This is the gospel and this is how it is received. Visions and imaginations that have unsaved young boys defending themselves and their righteousness and rebuking their elders through the encouragement of "spiritual Jesus" does not sound like this to me. It is not consistent with the Bible. It doesn't sound like the humility that Jesus is speaking about. That is the gospel of the BBC and not the Bible.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/13/2004 1:44 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
It seems to me that if we take "there is none righteous...no one seeks after God" to be always true every moment, then several Scriptures are likewise directly contradicted, for Scripture is replete with examples of persons who in fact DID seek after God, and who in fact WERE said in Scripture to be righteous.
Who do you think in scriptures sought after righeousness on their own and who were righteous on their own?
Hebrews 12:17 says this about Esau and his seeking, and he didn't find the blessing. "For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears."
Psalm 119:176 speaks of seeking, but the seeker is God after His straying sheep. "I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek Your servant, for I do not forget Your commandments."
The passage you quoted from Is 53:6 seems to give both the problem and solution. We go astray and He bore our sins to reconcile us to God. "All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him."
I see many scriptures claiming that we stray and God seeks us. I am interested in the ones that you understand implying that some men seek after God on their own and that some are righteous on their own.
Spen Lake
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/13/2004 2:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen,
I most certainly do NOT believe anyone seeks God on their own. No one comes to Christ except the Father draw him. God alone is the source of all good. Without him, we can do nothing good. Without the gracious power of the Holy Spirit, striving, convicting, leading to repentance, regenerating, sanctifying, and keeping a person, all would be lost and none could be saved.
I am simply saying that SOME people DO seek God, as the Scriptures I posted plainly demonstrate. I am simply saying that SOME people are said in Scripture to be ACTUALLY righteous. I agree that any goodness or righteousness anyone has is due to God working in their life. But that in no way obviates the plain facts that "there is none righteous...no one seeks after God...none good but God" are not universally always true. Even a Calvinist would agree with this.
As to Christ's saying of children, "Of such is the kingdom of God," I find this as well as many other passages in Scripture, to imply that there is what is known of as an age of moral accountability, prior to which a child is by definition innocent. Again, not that they have any meritorious goodness in them at all. I don't believe we are born morally GOOD; I find Scripture to teach that we are born morally neutral, and that until a child consciously rejects the righteousness of God, he remains innocent before God.
Romans 9:11 - (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ; )
Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Do you believe God sends babies to hell? Why or why not?
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/13/2004 2:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen,
I just realized that for some reason that when I tried to post those scriptures earlier, for some reason the post failed to go through. I don't have the time at this moment to look them all up again, but I will try again later tonight. Or, if you have access to a bible search engine of some kind, just do a search of "seek," "seek the Lord," "seek Him," "sought Him," or "seek after Him." If you don't wish to, I will try and post them later.
But again, none of these verses indicate that anyone ever does seek God apart from the Holy Spirit's drawing.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/13/2004 2:42 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
You say "As to Christ's saying of children, "Of such is the kingdom of God," I find this as well as many other passages in Scripture, to imply that there is what is known of as an age of moral accountability, prior to which a child is by definition innocent. Again, not that they have any meritorious goodness in them at all. I don't believe we are born morally GOOD; I find Scripture to teach that we are born morally neutral, and that until a child consciously rejects the righteousness of God, he remains innocent before God."
Does this mean that you believe that Jesus is commanding us to become like little children by becoming "morally neutral" and as we become morally neutral we inherit the kingdom of God? Jesus says something similar to telling us to become like little children when He says we must be born again. But being born again is clearly not becoming morally neutral but actually taking on His righteousness, becoming righteous before God because He has clothed us with the righteousness of Christ. This is also linked to the kingdom and entering the kingdom. 1 Peter is explicit in becoming born again through the cross.quote:
John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said* to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
quote:
1 Peter 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
I still think, however, that the passage in Matthew 18:4 is a strong indication of what Jesus meant in the context of becoming as a child. “Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven"
If you mean what I think you are saying, that Jesus wants us to become morally neutral as little children to enter the kingdom of God, this seems much weaker and I would like to better understand your scriptural basis for believing this way.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/13/2004 3:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Spen,
No, I don't think Jesus meant for us to become "morally neutral" to enter the Kingdom of God, any more than I think He meant we must go back into our mother's womb to be born again. It seems he was saying that we must be LIKE these little children who wanted to come to Him.
At the very least, Jesus seems to be strongly implying that children are NOT by definition enemies of God and purely evil, or else the comparison makes absolutely no sense at all.
Gotta run. Back later.
John,
What does the passage mean when Jesus says in Matthew 9:13, "for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
quote:
Mark 2:16, "When the scribes of the Pharisees saw that He was eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they said to His disciples, “Why is He eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners?” And hearing this, Jesus said* to them, “it is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
quote:
Luke 5:31, "Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. “I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
Jeremiah 30:14 calls sinners God's enemies, at least in some way.
"All your lovers have forgotten you,
They do not seek you;
For I have wounded you with the wound of an enemy,
With the punishment of a cruel one,
Because your iniquity is great
And your sins are numerous.
Jesus was a friend of sinners in that He offered them a way of salvation, not that he condoned their sin. He loved sinners and offered them His salvation. These were the ones that He sought, even though they were His enemies and that He was put to death by sinners. He will ultimately deal with unrepentent sinners as we see in Jude, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
I see nothing inconsistent in Jesus indicating that we become as little children to enter the kingdom. He came to save sinners and that is what we humbly admit that we are. We have an incurable disease, sin, and the great physician came to heal our incurable disease. He didn't come to save the morally neutral but the sick ungodly sinners, to them (me) He offers free salvation purchased by His own suffering death on the cross.
Spen Lake
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/13/2004 3:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen,
I believe Christ meant what he said when he said he came not to call the righteous, but the sinners, to repentance. I believe the Bible means what it says when it says that "sin is transgression of the law." I believe the Bible means what it says when it says all people sin.
I also believe the Bible means what it says when it says of children, "of such is the kingdom of God," and that they are not sinners until they actually sin. I believe total depravity is entered into voluntarily by all, as Romans 1, 2, & 3 clearly reveal. I believe we are each individually FULLY responsible for our own sins, and it is on the basis of our own sins (not Adam's) that we are judged as worthy of damnation--"the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father...the soul that sinneth shall die." (Ezek. 18).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/14/2004 3:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
Trusting God has usually meant in my life remembering that I walk daily in eternity. I dwell in God's kingdom of righteousness , peace and joy even when I'm waiting for the outcome of surgery on my wife. Trusting God means being anxious for nothing and being content in whatever situation I find myself in ( remembering that it's only a very small slice of eternity ). Trusting God more often than not means not letting my imagination run wild and reminding myself that God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of love and of power and of a sound mind.
Hope that helps...
peace, don
Thanks Don,
I can relate to your story about trusting in God.
I try to see the larger picture. I try to view my world from an eternal
perspective, from God’s perspective. As I rest in Christ I become calm,
and at peace. I’m not so anxious. I try not to let my imagination run wild worrying about what may never come to pass. I invite God (sometimes reluctantly), to take the reins. I relinquish control to Him, and ask what I can do for Him and others, not what He can give (toys), or do for me. I let go so I can be an instrument to further His Kingdom.
I’ve seen people use the power God has given them against others, but I don’t see this happening in Dr Boyd’s book. I cannot relate to Spenlake’s allegations. I believe what he is saying is deceptive. I think what you contributed in a few lines was more constructive then what Spenlake has said in “volumes” of text. I’ve asked Spen to share his own (true) experiences with us, rather then criticize the experience of others. Perhaps then we would have more compassion, more understanding about his position and feelings about Dr Boyd’s book. Maybe we could relate a little easier if he shared his own painful experiences and how he has been deceived by what he refers to as “other spirits”.
My prayers go out to you and your wife. 
Peace,
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