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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > Seeing is Believing and the BBC gospel | Forum Quick Jump
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/14/2004 4:54 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Spen,
I believe Christ meant what he said when he said he came not to call the righteous, but the sinners, to repentance. I believe the Bible means what it says when it says that "sin is transgression of the law." I believe the Bible means what it says when it says all people sin.
I also believe the Bible means what it says when it says of children, "of such is the kingdom of God," and that they are not sinners until they actually sin. I believe total depravity is entered into voluntarily by all, as Romans 1, 2, & 3 clearly reveal. I believe we are each individually FULLY responsible for our own sins, and it is on the basis of our own sins (not Adam's) that we are judged as worthy of damnation--"the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father...the soul that sinneth shall die." (Ezek. 18).
John,
As you requested, I have answered your question regarding what I believed that Jesus was pointing out in His illustration concerning children and the kingdom of God. I believe that He was referring to the objective humility of the child (meaning a child’s inability to defend/help themselves.) This is also supported by the context of the passage in that the little children weren’t themselves seeking Jesus. In all three accounts from Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the children were being brought to Jesus by others. They were passive and unable to fight their way through or even cry out like blind Bartimaeus who called out to the Son of David to heal him. I don’t think that the children’s sin or lack of sin was the issue of the illustration, but their helplessness and objective humble state.
You have not answered my question concerning what you believe, except to say that you don’t believe that children are sinners. How do you now apply this concept to the illustration of Jesus and the kingdom? What do you think the point he is trying to make in 3 gospels? What do you think is the quality that about children that Jesus was meaning to underscore in His illustration. It still seems to me that you wish to imply that He meant we had to become “righteous” as a little child. Or perhaps you mean to say, “sinless” or “innocent” as a little child. It might be a cozy and nice thought, but I don’t believe that it is a very strong reading of the texts nor do I see you supporting this with other scriptures to make it a stronger case.
Jesus came to save sinners and invite them to enter His kingdom through being born again by believing in the work He accomplished by His death on the cross and participating in His resurrection. To do so He tells us explicitly in Matthew 18 that “Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” He confirms this point later in Matthew 23:12, “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.” Being in the kingdom would certainly be exalted.
Lastly, we find that Jesus is also humble. In Matthew 11:29 He says, “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.” Taking His yoke and believing the gospel and his work on the cross is how we are born again as we saw in 1 Peter 1.quote:
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.”
Peter tells us that we are born again through believing in His work on the cross. He then tells us we have a living hope. Though now we have trials that distress us, AND WE HAVE NOT SEEN HIM AND DO NOT SEE HIM NOW, we rejoice because of His promise of the salvation of our souls. This is the rest that he promised us when He said, “YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.”
Dr. Boyd does not of this in “Seeing is Believing.” He claims his exercises are “resting in Christ” and speaks nothing of the cross. He claims that He does see and experience an imaginary real Christ with his 5 internal senses. This is not entering into the kingdom of God as little children that we have been speaking about. He is attempting to have his memories “born again” by reworking them with a false story. Peter tells us we are born again through simply believing in the work on the cross of the one that we do not yet see. The outcome that he promises isn’t temporal comfort here (Peter says, “you have been distressed by various trials.”) but he promises us the salvation of our souls. There is a big difference between the BBC’s gospel of “born again” memories and the true gospel’s promise of eternal life, despite the current distressing trials.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/14/2004 5:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
As you requested, I have answered your question regarding what I believed that Jesus was pointing out in His illustration concerning children and the kingdom of God. I believe that He was referring to the objective humility of the child (meaning a child’s inability to defend/help themselves.) This is also supported by the context of the passage in that the little children weren’t themselves seeking Jesus.
Jesus came to save sinners and invite them to enter His kingdom through being born again by believing in the work He accomplished by His death on the cross and participating in His resurrection. To do so He tells us explicitly in Matthew 18 that “Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” He confirms this point later in Matthew 23:12, “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.” Being in the kingdom would certainly be exalted.
Dr. Boyd does not of this in “Seeing is Believing.” He claims his exercises are “resting in Christ” and speaks nothing of the cross. He claims that He does see and experience an imaginary real Christ with his 5 internal senses. This is not entering into the kingdom of God as little children that we have been speaking about. He is attempting to have his memories “born again” by reworking them with a false story. Peter tells us we are born again through simply believing in the work on the cross of the one that we do not yet see. The outcome that he promises isn’t temporal comfort here (Peter says, “you have been distressed by various trials.”) but he promises us the salvation of our souls. There is a big difference between the BBC’s gospel of “born again” memories and the true gospel’s promise of eternal life, despite the current distressing trials.
Good Morning Spen,
I would like to comment on the first two paragraphs above. Having been a mother for almost 22 years now, and having taught children for most of my adult life (in church), I know quite a bit about them (smile), and I am learning quite a bit about the Father (as I watch His child; Jesus). I think Jesus used children as an example, not because they are helpless or weak, but because they ran to Him with such reckless abandon. They didn't care who was watching. Children come as they are. They are unashamed and unafraid. They do not try to make impressions. They are transparent. They trust that you are who you are. Spiritually, this means that He loved how they ran to him and clambered up on His knees. Perhaps that is why He said that we have a Spirit that enables us to cry Abba! Father! As for having to be brought to Jesus, well, unless they were unable to walk it seems that they were the first to go running to Him. Children seek Jesus in their own way. Often we are the ones who have to be convinced. The Holy Spirit points the way, and we ask, is it You Lord? A child would come running as soon as they recognized who it was, like a daddy coming home from work. They nearly bowl him over. That's how he wants us to come to Him, with excitement and abandon, with adoration, transparent and loving and trusting - like a child.
Your third paragraph
"speaks nothing of the cross" Doesn't the cross speak about healing and transformation? In speaking about prayer and the healing and transformative power of the Holy Spirit (the comforter), and of his experiences with Jesus, he speaks of the cross. The cross was made of wood, a tree. It is what it represents that is spoken of in "Seeing is Believing." It amazes me how two people can look at the same thing and see something completely different. I look at the sky and see the billowy rain clouds that are forming, the silouette of a bird as it flys against this magnificent blue-grey backdrop. I smell the scent of rain, even before I feel that first drop. There's a sense of wonder, of expectation. Another looks at that sky (as you have looked at Seeing is Believing), and all they see is what they "don't see." And there is no sense of wonder, no expectation. It is sad, IMHO.
There is no such thing as an "imaginary real Christ." He is. He is the great I AM. He is more than enough for every situation we encounter, and definitely able to heal every wound that we have experienced. If we run to Him, if we trust Him, we'll be amazed.
You're right, He doesn't just promise temporal comfort Spen. We are to look at eternity. But remember, eternity begins the moment we are saved. He set eternity in our hearts. And I believe He said something about freedom and coming so that we may live life more abundantly, and that our joy "may be full."
The cross. It is so much more than salvation for our souls.
That is the beauty that I see in Seeing is Believing. It highlights the healing that Jesus came to bring us. And with healing, transformation. And as we are transformed from one degree of glory into another - He is glorified. This is the Kingdom. I recognize it. The Kingdom isn't "black and white." It is technicolour. Have you ever seen The Wizard of Oz? The movie begins in black and white - until Dorothy steps through the looking glass and the world becomes technicolour. That is what happened when Jesus healed me in the vision that I had. I feel like life went from black and white to technicolour. It's what He does for all of us. He came to make our lives more beautiful, to restore us to our "original glory."
God bless. Those are my thoughts.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/14/2004 5:35 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I believed that Jesus was pointing out in His illustration concerning children and the kingdom of God. I believe that He was referring to the objective humility of the child (meaning a child’s inability to defend/help themselves.) This is also supported by the context of the passage in that the little children weren’t themselves seeking Jesus. In all three accounts from Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the children were being brought to Jesus by others. They were passive and unable to fight their way through or even cry out like blind Bartimaeus who called out to the Son of David to heal him. I don’t think that the children’s sin or lack of sin was the issue of the illustration, but their helplessness and objective humble state.
Lastly, we find that Jesus is also humble. In Matthew 11:29 He says, “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.”
Spen,
Since when does humble mean "helplessness"? Are you trying to say Jesus was "helpless and unable to defend himself"?
humble
hum·ble [húmb’l]
adj (comparative hum·bler, superlative hum·blest)
1. modest: modest and unassuming in attitude and behavior
2. respectful: feeling or showing respect and deference toward other people
3. lowly: relatively low in rank and without pretensions
of humble origins
vt (past hum·bled, past participle hum·bled, present participle hum·bling, 3rd person present singular hum·bles)
1. make somebody feel less important: to make somebody feel less proud or convinced of his or her own importance
2. degrade: to lower somebody in rank or importance
[13th century. Via Old French (h)umble from Latin humilis “lowly” (source of English humiliate), from humus “earth”; the underlying idea is “close to the ground.”]
-hum·ble·ness, n
-hum·bly, adv
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/14/2004 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/14/2004 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne,
You say, "I think Jesus used children as an example, not because they are helpless or weak, but because they ran to Him with such reckless abandon. They didn't care who was watching. Children come as they are. They are unashamed and unafraid. They do not try to make impressions. They are transparent. They trust that you are who you are. Spiritually, this means that He loved how they ran to him and clambered up on His knees. Perhaps that is why He said that we have a Spirit that enables us to cry Abba! Father! As for having to be brought to Jesus, well, unless they were unable to walk it seems that they were the first to go running to Him. Children seek Jesus in their own way. Often we are the ones who have to be convinced. The Holy Spirit points the way, and we ask, is it You Lord? A child would come running as soon as they recognized who it was, like a daddy coming home from work. They nearly bowl him over. That's how he wants us to come to Him, with excitement and abandon, with adoration, transparent and loving and trusting - like a child.
I appreciate your thoughts and they have merit, but the issue is scripture and what Jesus meant when he spoke those words concerning children and the kingdom. It was what He meant that is important in the current discussion, not our experiences with children. We need to understand the author's intent not subjective feelings. Scripture interprets scripture, not our experience.
You say, "speaks nothing of the cross" Doesn't the cross speak about healing and transformation? In speaking about prayer and the healing and transformative power of the Holy Spirit (the comforter), and of his experiences with Jesus, he speaks of the cross. The cross was made of wood, a tree. It is what it represents that is spoken of in "Seeing is Believing." It amazes me how two people can look at the same thing and see something completely different. I look at the sky and see the billowy rain clouds that are forming, the silouette of a bird as it flys against this magnificent blue-grey backdrop. I smell the scent of rain, even before I feel that first drop. There's a sense of wonder, of expectation. Another looks at that sky (as you have looked at Seeing is Believing), and all they see is what they "don't see." And there is no sense of wonder, no expectation. It is sad, IMHO.
Healing and transformation are also spoken of by every religion. The means of this healing, the path to transformation is the cross. This is not spoken about. The death and resurrection of the true Jesus who by His death forgave our immense sins, and we gratefully respond to forgive those who sinnned against us. This is not spoken about.
You say, "There is no such thing as an "imaginary real Christ." He is. He is the great I AM. He is more than enough for every situation we encounter, and definitely able to heal every wound that we have experienced. If we run to Him, if we trust Him, we'll be amazed."
I believe that those that Paul spoke about in 2 Cor 11:4, "For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully." I think that this different Jesus, this imaginary one that Paul hadn't preached would seem real in the minds of those who receive him. However, this other "Jesus" is only real in the imagination of those who listened to the false message. This is the Jesus of "Seeing is Believing."
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/14/2004 5:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
I think Jesus used children as an example, not because they are helpless or weak, but because they ran to Him with such reckless abandon. They didn't care who was watching. Children come as they are. They are unashamed and unafraid. They do not try to make impressions. They are transparent. They trust that you are who you are. Spiritually, this means that He loved how they ran to him and clambered up on His knees. Perhaps that is why He said that we have a Spirit that enables us to cry Abba! Father! As for having to be brought to Jesus, well, unless they were unable to walk it seems that they were the first to go running to Him. Children seek Jesus in their own way. Often we are the ones who have to be convinced. The Holy Spirit points the way, and we ask, is it You Lord? A child would come running as soon as they recognized who it was, like a daddy coming home from work. They nearly bowl him over. That's how he wants us to come to Him, with excitement and abandon, with adoration, transparent and loving and trusting - like a child.
Hello Jo-Anne,
I have I always read the passage in the same context as you stated so eloquently. We are to trust in the Father like children, contrary to becoming "helpless" like babies.
Blessings,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/14/2004 6:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I believed that Jesus was pointing out in His illustration concerning children and the kingdom of God. I believe that He was referring to the objective humility of the child (meaning a child’s inability to defend/help themselves.) This is also supported by the context of the passage in that the little children weren’t themselves seeking Jesus. In all three accounts from Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the children were being brought to Jesus by others. They were passive and unable to fight their way through or even cry out like blind Bartimaeus who called out to the Son of David to heal him. I don’t think that the children’s sin or lack of sin was the issue of the illustration, but their helplessness and objective humble state.
Lastly, we find that Jesus is also humble. In Matthew 11:29 He says, “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.”
Spen,
Since when does humble mean "helplessness"? Are you trying to say Jesus was "helpless and unable to defend himself"?
humble
hum·ble [húmb’l]
adj (comparative hum·bler, superlative hum·blest)
1. modest: modest and unassuming in attitude and behavior
2. respectful: feeling or showing respect and deference toward other people
3. lowly: relatively low in rank and without pretensions
of humble origins
vt (past hum·bled, past participle hum·bled, present participle hum·bling, 3rd person present singular hum·bles)
1. make somebody feel less important: to make somebody feel less proud or convinced of his or her own importance
2. degrade: to lower somebody in rank or importance
[13th century. Via Old French (h)umble from Latin humilis “lowly” (source of English humiliate), from humus “earth”; the underlying idea is “close to the ground.”]
-hum·ble·ness, n
-hum·bly, adv
Sparky,
I take definition 3.
3. lowly: relatively low in rank and without pretensions
of humble origins
Lowly in rank means that they cannot exert power over those who are above them. They obey and do not rebuke. Jesus humbled Himself and took the form of a servant. He humbled Himself relative to His Father and trusted in His Father to help Him. He did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped. He refused to extend his hand to help Himself or call down legions of angels. He became meek and lowly of heart - defintion 3. He CHOSE not to help or defend Himself and thus He humbled Himself. We are told that we are to CHOOSE to humble ourselves as a little child. A child is to obey and not rebuke those in authority over them.
Definition 3 is the appropriate one.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/14/2004 6:14 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I believed that Jesus was pointing out in His illustration concerning children and the kingdom of God. I believe that He was referring to the objective humility of the child (meaning a child’s inability to defend/help themselves.) This is also supported by the context of the passage in that the little children weren’t themselves seeking Jesus. In all three accounts from Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the children were being brought to Jesus by others. They were passive and unable to fight their way through or even cry out like blind Bartimaeus who called out to the Son of David to heal him. I don’t think that the children’s sin or lack of sin was the issue of the illustration, but their helplessness and objective humble state.
Lastly, we find that Jesus is also humble. In Matthew 11:29 He says, “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.”
Spen,
Since when does humble mean "helplessness"? Are you trying to say Jesus was "helpless and unable to defend himself"?
humble
hum·ble [húmb’l]
adj (comparative hum·bler, superlative hum·blest)
1. modest: modest and unassuming in attitude and behavior
2. respectful: feeling or showing respect and deference toward other people
3. lowly: relatively low in rank and without pretensions
of humble origins
vt (past hum·bled, past participle hum·bled, present participle hum·bling, 3rd person present singular hum·bles)
1. make somebody feel less important: to make somebody feel less proud or convinced of his or her own importance
2. degrade: to lower somebody in rank or importance
[13th century. Via Old French (h)umble from Latin humilis “lowly” (source of English humiliate), from humus “earth”; the underlying idea is “close to the ground.”]
-hum·ble·ness, n
-hum·bly, adv
Sparky,
I take definition 3.
3. lowly: relatively low in rank and without pretensions
of humble origins
Lowly in rank means that they cannot exert power over those who are above them. They obey and do not rebuke. Jesus humbled Himself and took the form of a servant. He humbled Himself relative to His Father and trusted in His Father to help Him. He did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped. He refused to extend his hand to help Himself or call down legions of angels. He became meek and lowly of heart - defintion 3. He CHOSE not to help or defend Himself and thus He humbled Himself. We are told that we are to CHOOSE to humble ourselves as a little child. A child is to obey and not rebuke those in authority over them.
Definition 3 is the appropriate one.
A private in the Army is low in rank, but not helpless.
helpless
help·less [hélpl#601;ss]
adj
1. needing help: unable to manage without help
2. defenseless: unprotected and unable to provide an adequate defense against an attack
3. unable to act effectively: unable to do anything to protect somebody or prevent something happening
He was helpless to stop the assault.
4. unrestrained: unable to exert control or restraint
His jokes had us absolutely helpless.
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/14/2004 6:25 AM (GMT -6) | | sparknheart quote:
A private in the Army is low in rank, but not helpless.
helpless
help·less [hélpl#601;ss]
adj
1. needing help: unable to manage without help
2. defenseless: unprotected and unable to provide an adequate defense against an attack
3. unable to act effectively: unable to do anything to protect somebody or prevent something happening
He was helpless to stop the assault.
4. unrestrained: unable to exert control or restraint
His jokes had us absolutely helpless.
This is interesting. This definition does pretty much define the state a child is in. A child depends on others for survival and they are unable to manage without help. A child is defenseless against the assaults and that is why there is Child Protection services. A child is in effect unable to stop an assault and is unable to exert control. This would fit for children. It's interesting that Jesus said we must become as children. I wonder if the reason being that as we admit our limitedness and helplessness, God is able to take the rightful place in our hearts and minds of being the redeemer? We admit that we cannot manage without him. We admit that the enemy is real and alive and without the blood of Jesus on us we are open targets. We are extremely limited in our natural state to fight off the schemes of the enemy BUT if we acknowledge this and ask Jesus to fight our battles and be our redeemer then “Greater is HE that is within me than he that is within the world.”
I lost track on what this exactly has to do with Dr. Boyd's book. I will have to reread. This thread is very active!
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/14/2004 6:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
I wonder if the reason being that as we admit our limitedness and helplessness, God is able to take the rightful place in our hearts and minds of being the redeemer? We admit that we cannot manage without him. We admit that the enemy is real and alive and without the blood of Jesus on us we are open targets. We are extremely limited in our natural state to fight off the schemes of the enemy BUT if we acknowledge this and ask Jesus to fight our battles and be our redeemer then “Greater is HE that is within me than he that is within the world.”
Hello Quest,
I see your point, but I still don't think humbling your self means being helpless. We are already helpless in a sense (like big kids) with out God. We don’t need to make ourselves helpless in order to come to God. We need to make ourselves humble in order to come to God. It is not the same. By being humble we acknowledge our helplessness.
For example, was Satan’s fall attributed to him for not being helpless? Or was it due his rebellion, not being humble, full of pride? I know many people that our down and out and feel totally helpless, but their pride will not let them humble themselves enough to surrender their life to God.
Peace,
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/14/2004 8:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John,
Regarding the passage from Isaiah 7:16 "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings." This verse is about one child that was born morally good, the Christ. I am not sure what you mean by this verse or what statement you intend it to support.
The above verse, like the Romans 9 one I also quoted, clearly demonstrates that there is a time in childhood during which children don't know good from evil.
quote:
When it comes to babies, I don't know what happens. I don't see things clear in the scriptures regarding this as to the what and the why regarding babies. I guess that I believe that God is good and that I can trust Him to care for these little ones as He sees fit, knowing that He cares.
Your position seems quite inconsitent with the view of depravity affirmed by Augustinianism/Calvinism.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/14/2004 9:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I appreciate your thoughts and they have merit, but the issue is scripture and what Jesus meant when he spoke those words concerning children and the kingdom. It was what He meant that is important in the current discussion, not our experiences with children. We need to understand the author's intent not subjective feelings. Scripture interprets scripture, not our experience.
Healing and transformation are also spoken of by every religion. The means of this healing, the path to transformation is the cross. This is not spoken about. The death and resurrection of the true Jesus who by His death forgave our immense sins, and we gratefully respond to forgive those who sinnned against us. This is not spoken about.
I believe that those that Paul spoke about in 2 Cor 11:4, "For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully." I think that this different Jesus, this imaginary one that Paul hadn't preached would seem real in the minds of those who receive him. However, this other "Jesus" is only real in the imagination of those who listened to the false message. This is the Jesus of "Seeing is Believing."
Spen,
As I was driving off to meet my friend to go for our morning hike I was hit with this overwhelming realization. I was inspired! I've been contemplating the meaning of Romans 12:2 "Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove {for yourselves} what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God..." (Amplified Bible)
Inspiration comes from unexpected places and where we least expect it! Thank you for inspiring me.
I've asked myself these questions: What is conforming to this world? What is transformation? How are we renewed? How does He "do it?" How does this take place through our minds?
When you said "experience" it home to me.
You said, "I appreciate your thoughts and they have merit, but the issue is scripture and what Jesus meant when he spoke those words concerning children and the kingdom. It was what He meant that is important in the current discussion, not our experiences with children. We need to understand the author's intent not subjective feelings. Scripture interprets scripture, not our experience."
I would like to disagree with you on this. Thanks for "appreciating my thoughts." Jesus used children as His illustration (His object lesson) because it was their characteristics (which are plain for all to see), that He wanted to draw attention to. He taught using object lessons because He knows how we learn best. We are like children in that way. We are "fearfully and wonderfully made." He created us with sight, hearing, touch, and smell. He created us with cognitive ability as well as the ability to imagine, to visualize. We even dream. He constantly taught using things that we could see, hear, touch and feel, so that they would become real to us.
He speaks to us (constantly) through what we experience.
The aha! moment that I had driving was that (and this may seem elementary to most of you) transformation takes place through experience!
Transformation takes place through experience! Eureka! It is not mere head knowledge. That is why we are to be doers of the word, not just hearers. If we do not put what we know into practice (experience it), we will not learn it. It will not become real to us.
You say, "Scripture interprets scripture..."
I say, "The Holy Spirit interprets scripture for us." And He knows how we learn best - through experience! He takes the scripture and He brings it to life, and we learn it, and walk in it because it has become real to us!
Your second paragraph where you say, "healing and transformation are also spoken of by every religion..."
I say, "No doubt." God created us with such intelligence that people have been able to figure out how transformation takes place (to some extent). Another realization that I came to this week is that all of us, believers or not, are being transformed. The question is, "What are we being transformed into?" If we are believers and live what we believe, we will be transformed from one degree of glory into another, and real healing has taken place. The fruit of transformation will look different in a believer's life. It will produce spiritual fruit.
Dr Boyd shares with his readers the Jesus who longs for His children to be set free, the Jesus who invites a little boy to relive a painful memory, but this time he doesn't have to go back there in his mind alone. This time, the sovereign Lord takes his hand, and "walks him through it." He is our comfort as well as our counsellor. What else would bring healing as powerfully to this devastating experience, than another (more powerful) experience where Jesus demonstrates to a little boy his real worth?
If Jesus were there (in person) the first time, he would have given "Greggie" a shiny red airplane (and a hug).
And to quote your very own words Spen; "THIS is the Jesus of Seeing is Believing."
God Bless (and thanks for the inspiration for the message on experiencing transformation through experiencing Jesus!)
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/14/2004 11:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen,
How do you reconcile, "There is none righteous, no not one," with the following:
1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
Further, how do you reconcile your belief that no one can stop sinning until their physical death with 1 John 3:8, that "the one who practices sin is of the devil?"
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/14/2004 11:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen,
How do you reconcile, "no one seeks after God" with the following:
Deut 4:29 "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.
30 "When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days you will return to the LORD your God and listen to His voice.
Acts 17:27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28 for 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring.'
1 Chronicles 28:9 - And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
1 Chronicles 16:11 - Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.
1 Chronicles 22:19 - Now set your heart and your soul to seek the LORD your God; arise therefore, and build ye the sanctuary of the LORD God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and the holy vessels of God, into the house that is to be built to the name of the LORD.
2 Chronicles 11:16 - And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.
Psalms 34:10 - The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.
Proverbs 28:5 - Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
Isaiah 51:1 - Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
Hosea 10:12 - Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.
Amos 5:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live: 5 But seek not Bethel, nor enter into Gilgal, and pass not to Beersheba: for Gilgal shall surely go into captivity, and Bethel shall come to nought. 6 Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel. 7 Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth, 8 Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name:
Notably, in this passage from Amos, the Lord commands people who "leave off righteousness," to seek Him.
In any case, it seems obvious (at least to me) that Paul's statement, "no one seeks after God," is not a universally unconditionally true statement. The fact is that some people DO seek the Lord (though of course not without the Holy Spirit's drawing).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/16/2004 2:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Spen,
How do you reconcile, "There is none righteous, no not one," with the following:
1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
Further, how do you reconcile your belief that no one can stop sinning until their physical death with 1 John 3:8, that "the one who practices sin is of the devil?"
John,
To practice righteousness one must have been already made righteous by believing the work of Christ on the cross and having His righteousness imputed as a gift. Believing in this gift and its efficacy produces righteous acts, they are the fruit of the gift and the life of Jesus within us. It is the Spirit that accomplishes righteousness through us because His righteousness was given to us and we ARE made righteous.
The inverse is also true. If we "practice" sin and live according to our selfish lusts that conceive sin, then we act according to the nature of the devil who sinned from the beginning. We are children of the devil in that we act in accordance with the devil's nature, not that we have been conceived by him.
How do you reconcile it, John?
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/16/2004 2:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Spen,
How do you reconcile, "no one seeks after God" with the following:
Deut 4:29 "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.
30 "When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days you will return to the LORD your God and listen to His voice.
Acts 17:27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28 for 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring.'
1 Chronicles 28:9 - And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
1 Chronicles 16:11 - Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.
1 Chronicles 22:19 - Now set your heart and your soul to seek the LORD your God; arise therefore, and build ye the sanctuary of the LORD God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and the holy vessels of God, into the house that is to be built to the name of the LORD.
2 Chronicles 11:16 - And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.
Psalms 34:10 - The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.
Proverbs 28:5 - Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
Isaiah 51:1 - Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
Hosea 10:12 - Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.
Amos 5:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live: 5 But seek not Bethel, nor enter into Gilgal, and pass not to Beersheba: for Gilgal shall surely go into captivity, and Bethel shall come to nought. 6 Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel. 7 Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth, 8 Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name:
Notably, in this passage from Amos, the Lord commands people who "leave off righteousness," to seek Him.
In any case, it seems obvious (at least to me) that Paul's statement, "no one seeks after God," is not a universally unconditionally true statement. The fact is that some people DO seek the Lord (though of course not without the Holy Spirit's drawing).
John,
Do the following passages apply to all men or do they apply to only one man? Which man among us has sought the Lord continually with all his heart and all his soul. I only know of one and He was unique.
"you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul."
"Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually."
When you state, "In any case, it seems obvious (at least to me) that Paul's statement, "no one seeks after God," is not a universally unconditionally true statement. The fact is that some people DO seek the Lord (though of course not without the Holy Spirit's drawing)." You acknowledge, I think, that no man seeks the Lord on his own. If in fact, no man seeks the Lord on his own, then it is the Lord's drawing that matters. Men only respond to the Lord's drawing. If they respond to the Lord's drawing, then they still haven't sought Him as such, they are still the objects of God's seeking.
Do you claim to seek the Lord continually and with all your heart and all your soul? Sometimes I "feel" like I am or like I could. Yet the reality of my life bears testimony to the lusts that still lurk within me waiting to express themselves. So I think I am already saved in one sense. Yet, I am still being saved in another sense, where I live from day to day. God and His gospel IS saving me. I will ultimately be saved and be given a new body and will never desire to sin again. I will inherit the eternal life that was promised to us all, all those who are drawn by Him and believe in the work of His Son.
Spen Lake
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/16/2004 6:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John,
To practice righteousness one must have been already made righteous by believing the work of Christ on the cross and having His righteousness imputed as a gift.
I have been unable to find any scriptural support for the idea that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. I do find Scriptural support that God imputes righteousness--to those who believe His promise (as Abraham did--see Rom. 4 and Gal. 3). I certainly agree that one must first be made righteous by the power of the Holy Spirit in order to practice righteousness.
quote:
It is the Spirit that accomplishes righteousness through us because His righteousness was given to us and we ARE made righteous.
Amen.
quote:
The inverse is also true. If we "practice" sin and live according to our selfish lusts that conceive sin, then we act according to the nature of the devil who sinned from the beginning. We are children of the devil in that we act in accordance with the devil's nature, not that we have been conceived by him.
Preach!
quote:
How do you reconcile it, John?
As I stated in a thread I started yesterday, "Are There None Righteous?", I find Paul's statement in Romans 3 must be qualified to simply mean that all people sin (when they mature enough to do so--age of accountability). It also seems clear to me that Paul did not by any means advocate perpetual sinning in the life of a "believer" along with a God who couldn't see what the true nature of their life was (i.e., the imputation scheme). Romans 6:1 is unmistakeably clear to me, as is 1 John 3:6-9.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/16/2004 6:43 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John,
Do the following passages apply to all men or do they apply to only one man? Which man among us has sought the Lord continually with all his heart and all his soul. I only know of one and He was unique.
"you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul."
"Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually."
How much disobedience to this clear command is acceptable?
quote:
When you state, "In any case, it seems obvious (at least to me) that Paul's statement, "no one seeks after God," is not a universally unconditionally true statement. The fact is that some people DO seek the Lord (though of course not without the Holy Spirit's drawing)." You acknowledge, I think, that no man seeks the Lord on his own.
Yes, I think I said that.
quote:
If in fact, no man seeks the Lord on his own, then it is the Lord's drawing that matters.
There are roles we all must play in this. The fact that God draws does not obviate the also-plain fact that the Scripture speaks of people seeking God too. Are you saying we shouldn't seek God?
quote:
Men only respond to the Lord's drawing.
Not sure how your using "only" here, but it seems to me that you are missing a very important factor in the equation if you deny that people must respond to the Lord's drawing by yielding their will to His.
quote:
If they respond to the Lord's drawing, then they still haven't sought Him as such, they are still the objects of God's seeking.
That assumes too much, it seems. Why the need to deny the Scriptures that clearly show that people DO in fact have a responsibility to seek God? Of course they can't if God doesn't initiate the relationship; no one's saying that isn't true. But it seems to me that you are trying to say that "people don't seek God, period," while I've presented numerous scriptures which plainly reveal that SOME people DO seek God.
quote:
Do you claim to seek the Lord continually and with all your heart and all your soul?
I believe we can have a pure heart (Matt. 5:8), which to my understanding means we can have a pure (sanctified by grace) motive to live for God, consciously (and subconsciously) making it one's life aim to live in a way that is fully pleasing to the Lord. As far as I know, I have made that ultimate decision and continue to maintain that ultimate decision. This does not mean no further growth in grace and knowledge is necessary, not at all; all it does mean is that my heart is His.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/16/2004 9:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Do you claim to seek the Lord continually and with all your heart and all your soul? Sometimes I "feel" like I am or like I could. Yet the reality of my life bears testimony to the lusts that still lurk within me waiting to express themselves. So I think I am already saved in one sense. Yet, I am still being saved in another sense, where I live from day to day. God and His gospel IS saving me. I will ultimately be saved and be given a new body and will never desire to sin again. I will inherit the eternal life that was promised to us all, all those who are drawn by Him and believe in the work of His Son.
Spen,
I can "hear" your heart here and I appreciate what you're saying. It comes from a place of honesty and transparency and that is a good place. Sometimes I wonder if we don't expect more from ourselves than He expects from us? I wonder if we aren't more disappointed in ourselves than He is? He looks at us through these "Jesus filters" and declares that we are righteous, a holy priesthood, joint heirs, friends, His beloved children. It blows me away. It is something to soak up and let saturate your being until it just oozes out of your pores. We are who He is. Of course, we drag this flesh along with us , but really we are living a spiritual life in the flesh. We are in the world, but not of it.
I wondered tonight as we went to see Troy. I enjoyed parts of the movie, but couldn't watch the battle scenes. Most women I know can watch the battle scenes. It made me wonder if I was just too sensitive, or if it had something to do with who I am in Him? I just cannot understand people who enjoy watching violence for entertainment? Or, maybe it's just a guy thing. At times I feel like a bit of an oddball. There are so many other things I could be doing, but I love being here, learning and discussing the things of God with others. I don't know any other women in our church who enjoy this kind of thing. I wonder if other women on the board have the same feelings?
And I wonder if men feel as though they are the only ones who struggle to walk uprightly?
We complicate this walk. It wasn't meant to be so difficult. Micah 6 :8 says, "What does the Lord require of you; but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God." Whoever said that you had to be "saintly" to be a saint? David was a "man after God's own heart" but committed adultery and murder.
His love is amazing!
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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