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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/4/2004 3:37 PM (GMT -6) |   | © BBC
The mystery of mind control
By Brendan O'Neill
Deleting memories is simple with computers, but as the movie Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind shows, it's still - as far as humans are concerned - the stuff of science fiction. Or is it?
Charlie Kaufman's new film Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, tells the story of Joel (Jim Carrey), who has the memory of a soured relationship erased from his brain by a slightly sinister research organisation, Lacuna Inc.
Lacuna carries out "cutting-edge, non-surgical procedures for the focused erasure of troubling memories." It even has its own website [see internet links] - though anybody looking to erase the memory of a lost love or traumatic accident should bear in mind that Lacuna Inc is fictional, the website is for film promotional purposes only, and the treatment it proposes is as yet the stuff of fiction.
Five years
Or is it? American neuroscientists are currently developing "memory-management" drugs. They believe that such pills could help individuals improve their memory skills or even erase unwanted memories, such as that bad childhood experience lurking at the back of your mind.
According to Eric Kandel, a Nobel Prize-winning memory researcher at Columbia University in Manhattan, memory-improving and memory-deleting medicines may be available within five to 10 years. More than 40 drugs aimed at improving memory are currently going through clinical trials with the US Food and Drug Administration.
Those who can't wait five years might try mind controller Derren Brown who, according to Channel 4, displays an "amazing ability to put ideas into people's heads".
Lacuna Inc's focused erasure of troubling memories may sound a bit sci-fi, but in a recent episode of Brown's show, he appeared to erase, through mere suggestion and manipulation, a London cabbie's knowledge of where the London Eye was. At one point the cabbie drove straight past the Eye declaring, "It's around here somewhere..."
Mind control is a made-up term - but yes, it is possible to totally influence a person's inner world
Professor E Mark Stern
Hypnosis meanwhile, where individuals are put into a trance-like state, is big business - both as treatment and entertainment. Hypnotists, or "registered hypnotherapists" as most prefer to be called, claim that they can help people give up smoking.
Others claim that advertising is a form of mind control, where subliminal messages are planted in our minds by sneaky corporations who want us to buy their products.
Indeed, according to reports, we will soon enter the age of "hypersonic messaging", in which advertisers hope to use advances in neurotechnology to bombard people's brains with signals to trigger purchases.
Little wonder the web will offer a rich seam of conspiracy theories, and even advice on how to construct an Aluminium Foil Deflector Beanie, a hat made from tinfoil described as "an effective low-cost solution to combating mind control...." [see internet links].
Made up
So is mind control myth or reality? "'Mind control' is a made-up term", says Professor E Mark Stern of Iona Collage in New York, author of The Other Side of the Couch. "But yes, it is possible to totally influence a person's inner world."
According to Stern, there can be good mind control and bad mind control. "In its best sense, mind control is akin to self-control, often used as a product of meditation. This can be helpful for pain management.
"But then there are things like cults - there, mind control happens when a cult wins over another person's consciousness through hypnotic-like inducements including 'love bombs', a form of praise, overseeing an inductee's every action, and eventually using shame and the threat of being expelled by the cult as a means of controlling them."
Mind control is a relatively recent concept. It first emerged in the aftermath of the Korean war, when it was claimed that the Chinese had carried out mind control experiments on US prisoners of war, as depicted in the 1962 film The Manchurian Candidate.
Since then mind control, or "brainwashing", has been used to explain many different phenomena, from our ad-led consumer culture to some people's willingness to ditch everything and sign up to weird millenarian cults.
There are various hypothetical techniques of mind control: among them the use of drugs, such as "truth serum", to induce a more relaxed state of mind; hypnosis, where an individual is put into a trance-like state usually in order to recover memories; Pavlovian conditioning, named after experiments carried out by the Russian psychologist Ivan Pavlov in the early 20th Century, where he described how we are "conditioned" into certain types of behaviour; and indoctrination, where an authoritative body uses propaganda or the threat of force to shape individuals' minds and belief systems.
Yet among sociologists and psychologists mind control is a bitterly contested theory.
Some do not believe the human mind can ever fully be controlled by outside forces. While they accept that individuals can be made to behave in a certain way under duress or threat of force ("What wouldn't you do with a gun pressed to your head?" asked one recent article on the subject of mind control), they doubt that individuals can be manipulated against their will by sexy advertising, hypnotists or even cult leaders.
Massimo Introvigne, founder of the Center for Studies on New Religions, believes that mind control theorists leave out one important thing - free will, our ability to think for ourselves even under extreme circumstances.
Discredited
According to Introvigne, mind control, or "mental manipulation" or "mental destabilisation", are merely more scientific-sounding terms for the brainwashing.
"That label has been discredited by mental health scholars", he says, so now we say "mind control" to explain away behaviour we "don't quite understand".
Perhaps a beady eye should be kept on developments within the worlds of memory-controlling medicine and hypersonic messaging, but it might not be necessary to don Aluminium Foil Deflector Beanies just yet.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3682773.stm
Published: 2004/05/04 11:35:26 GMT
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/4/2004 4:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen Lake,
Can you help me? I do not understand why you are against a person with a painful memory wanting to put closure to it? The exercise of going into a painful memory and bringing Jesus into the memory isn't totally made up. Jesus was in the memory but at the time of abuse the person may have not been able to see where Jesus was or if he was with them. Many people ask "Why" Jesus didn't stop the abuse.... The exercise of telling the victim the truth in the circumstance is not made up. Telling yourself the truth instead of continuing to live with the lie that was installed can be VERY healing and therapeutic.
Please tell me why you are so strongly opposed to this type of reworking of a painful event. I really don't understand. The reason I would like to is because there are other people who think like you and I don't get them.
I hope you will respond because I am really trying to understand. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/4/2004 4:43 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Spen Lake,
Can you help me? I do not understand why you are against a person with a painful memory wanting to put closure to it? The exercise of going into a painful memory and bringing Jesus into the memory isn't totally made up. Jesus was in the memory but at the time of abuse the person may have not been able to see where Jesus was or if he was with them. Many people ask "Why" Jesus didn't stop the abuse.... The exercise of telling the victim the truth in the circumstance is not made up. Telling yourself the truth instead of continuing to live with the lie that was installed can be VERY healing and therapeutic.
Please tell me why you are so strongly opposed to this type of reworking of a painful event. I really don't understand. The reason I would like to is because there are other people who think like you and I don't get them.
I hope you will respond because I am really trying to understand.
Quest,
I am not against a person finding comfort in the truth. This is the gospel, the truth of our freedom from slavery to sin bought by the death of our creator and God. I am against and oppose man's teachings and therapies pretending to be the gospel and hiding behind labels like, "resting in Christ." If healing memories through experiencing false replacement history was the gospel and the message of freedom preached by the apostles, for which the martyrs died, fine. It wasn't though. To calmly sit and call this the gospel is cheapening the deaths of those we are endebted to, Christ first and then His witnesses who paid with their blood that we would have the true message.
If the pain is so great that a person wants to find therapy in mind control games - it is his business. To call these historical memory replacements "resting in Christ" is an affront to God and those that died preaching the true message of the gospel. The temporal pain that we have is nothing compared to the eternal pain people will experience if they believe and follow a false gospel. This is a kind of false assurance in which we exchange temporal false-based comfort now for the truth of the gospel's enternal comfort later. Lazarus experienced temporal pain and eternal comfort. Perhaps this would be better than calling the false "resting in Christ" and pretending the Holy Spirit and God inspires false histories for us to find true freedom in.
Doesn't anybody care that the gospel itself is being perverted? I would like to ask this board and Dr. Boyd why they aren't at least as upset over this attack on the gospel of Christ as they are when someone pokes fun at the OV. Where are people's priorities concerning the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. It is shocking to me to see so many complacent when they are being told in black and white that we can find the power to forgive and healing in Spirit-inspired false replacement history - and this is "resting in Christ." Don't your ears tingle? Read the BBC article an tell me if you don't find at least some kind of similarities to the issues we have addressed. Is the BBC pereaching the gospel? If the BBC's message is similar to Dr. Boyd's without the "Christian lingo" perhaps Dr. Boyd's message wasn't "resting in Christ" any more than the BBC's is.
The gospel is about the incarnation of God who became man and by whose death we have freedom, even from our sins. Because we have been forgiven our massive debt, we have been given eternal life, we have had our incurable disease cured, we have been given new hearts, we have the Holy Spirit as a down payment of the eternal life to come - because of all the goodness of God poured out upon us, we can forgive the paltry sins of those that abuse us. We love because He first loved us and this was expressed on the cross and in His red blood, not fictional history. The gospel never once tells us to find comfort in false historical replacement events. This does not happen, ever!
That's enough of a tirade, but this is what is core to Christianity and this is what this book is attacking. If you want "healing of the memories" without calling it the gospel go the the BBC and follow their execises and call them "resting in the BBC." This is less dangerous. This may work and bring comfort and not denigrate the greatest event in the world and the eternal freedom to be found there.
Spen Lake
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/4/2004 4:58 PM (GMT -6) | | I tell you what somebody should care about, is when spenlake continues to bear false witness about this, when spenlake presents his rebuttals to Boyd's book, is answered by Boyd himself as well as several others on this board, all demonstrating conclusively that spen is simply mistaken (I would say LYING) when he says that Boyd:
1. Calls his technique of "resting in Christ" the Gospel.
2. In effect encourages people to believe falsehoods with regard to their past.
Both of these points, that spenlake continues to rant about ad nauseum, have been fully answered by several on this board, including Doc himself. And yet spen continues to blatantly lie about all of us, even going so far as to insult our intelligence by continuing his ridiculous rants.
Thou shalt not bear false witness, spenlake! | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 5/4/2004 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | .
quote:
BBC news quote,
(supplied by Spen):
...."Since then mind control, or "brainwashing", has been used to explain many different phenomena, from our ad-led consumer culture to some people's willingness to ditch everything and sign up to weird millenarian cults."
'Spen:
Your accusations about Dr. Boyd are beginning to sound obsessive.
Do you realize this?
Please -- just let it go.
Peace & blessings,
<><
.
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/4/2004 6:16 PM (GMT -6) | | SpenLake,
Thank you for responding. I appreciate your going with your convictions. I appreciate your passion to defend the gospel and truth. I appreciate your concerns yet I too have a heart to follow after Christ and his truth. I am unable to share in your concerns regarding Dr. Boyd's book. I want to defend my position now with the hope that perhaps you might understand where I am coming from....
1. Boyd calls his technique of "resting in Christ" the Gospel.
From my take I believe Boyd finds rest in Christ through bringing TRUTH to the lie that was installed in a past wound. Reworking the memory with the intention of understanding the truth in the situation. Satan would love us to live powerless lives by keeping us stuck in the destructive events of our life but Jesus came to give us life to the fullest. I find Boyd's technique very healing. It has been a way for me to let go of the abuse and let God take it from me and replace it with his love for me. "Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest." "Cast your cares on him for he cares for you."
2. In effect encourages people to believe falsehoods with regard to their past.
I believe a better way to phrase the goal of this technique is that it encourages people to believe the truth in what was a lie that had been installed from an attack from the enemy. The falsehood would be in allowing the event to dictate the truth. The event was just an event but the message that was installed in the victim is at the root and often ends up setting a person up to believe a lie. Applying the truth sets the captive FREE!
Spenlake, can you appreciate how I am framing this technique differently from you while I too am seeking after truth and have a passion to follow Christ?
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/5/2004 1:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
I tell you what somebody should care about, is when spenlake continues to bear false witness about this, when spenlake presents his rebuttals to Boyd's book, is answered by Boyd himself as well as several others on this board, all demonstrating conclusively that spen is simply mistaken (I would say LYING) when he says that Boyd:
1. Calls his technique of "resting in Christ" the Gospel.
2. In effect encourages people to believe falsehoods with regard to their past.
Both of these points, that spenlake continues to rant about ad nauseum, have been fully answered by several on this board, including Doc himself. And yet spen continues to blatantly lie about all of us, even going so far as to insult our intelligence by continuing his ridiculous rants.
Thou shalt not bear false witness, spenlake!
John,
Bearing false witness implies that the statements made must be false. If the statement I made is proved true then your claim is invalid and false. What do the black and white words from a published book say as evidence of my claim. They are not taken out of context. Your accusation against me is that you and others have demonstrated conclusively "that spen is simply mistaken (I would say LYING) when he says that Boyd:
1. Calls his technique of "resting in Christ" the Gospel."
To find the facts, we simply go the the book and read the following passages. Do they support your terse accusation that I am a "false accuser" or do they support my claim that Dr. Boyd calls his technique resting in Christ?
Page 97, Chapter Heading, "Resting in Christ." "More specifically, this chapter will be concerned mostly with offereing guidlines to one form of imaginative prayer. I call it "resting in Christ" because it emphasizes our fundamental need to rest in the truth - the truth of who Christ is and the truth of who we are in Christ - and to do so regardless of where we are spiritually....It is , I belive, an exercise that is foundational to our spiritual growth."
Page 101, "But the important part is to use your mind and all five imaginative senses when you pray. Ask the Holy Spirit to use his creativity to stimulate your imagination to make the realities of the spritual world real to you."
Page 102, "I am not an expert on the devotional traditions of the church, but of the forms of prayer and meditation I am familiar with, the practive of imaginatively encountering Jesus, of "resting in Christ" has been by far the most accessible and most powerful for me."
Page 103, "Because our re-presentations are concrete and experiential, they are transforming in a way that the abstract ideas themselves cannot be."
Page 104, "For the resting in Christ exercise to be of any real value, it is absolutely crucial that we commit to its being a time of rest."
Page 105, "Since truth is the goal, this is a time for you to put off all pretense, to be totally honest with yourself and God,"
Page 107, "When we rest in Christ with total honesty, we give him a chance to prove to us that he loves us amisdt all our sin."
Page 111, "This brings us to the goal of the resting in Christ exercise. It is to experience Jesus."
John, the second point by which you accuse me of being a "false accuser" is:
2. In effect encourages people to believe falsehoods with regard to their past. Any cogent person reading pages 116 to 125 can read of a false replacement historical encounter with red airplanes and rebuked grandmothers that never happened. I don't think that it is necessary to type pages of material that is so obvious. Either the black and white words written in this book are lying or you are.
In spite of your growlings, You have failed to address the point itself which is Dr. Boyd's example claims that resting in Christ is to be experienced in false historical replacement stories that rework our memories. Dr. Boyd has failed to address the issues, stating one reason that he would not engage to do so is that I was unsympathetic to his book. Seems like a weak position to be in, because it is a very weak position to defend. He defends other ideas against those who oppose them. However, given the written record, I wouldn't want to defend his example either from the perspective of a Christian worldview. It is undefendable. I believe he hasn't done so because he cannot.
You can falsely accuse me of falsely accusing, but your facts are as confused as this teaching.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/5/2004 1:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
SpenLake,
Thank you for responding. I appreciate your going with your convictions. I appreciate your passion to defend the gospel and truth. I appreciate your concerns yet I too have a heart to follow after Christ and his truth. I am unable to share in your concerns regarding Dr. Boyd's book. I want to defend my position now with the hope that perhaps you might understand where I am coming from....
1. Boyd calls his technique of "resting in Christ" the Gospel.
From my take I believe Boyd finds rest in Christ through bringing TRUTH to the lie that was installed in a past wound. Reworking the memory with the intention of understanding the truth in the situation. Satan would love us to live powerless lives by keeping us stuck in the destructive events of our life but Jesus came to give us life to the fullest. I find Boyd's technique very healing. It has been a way for me to let go of the abuse and let God take it from me and replace it with his love for me. "Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest." "Cast your cares on him for he cares for you."
2. In effect encourages people to believe falsehoods with regard to their past.
I believe a better way to phrase the goal of this technique is that it encourages people to believe the truth in what was a lie that had been installed from an attack from the enemy. The falsehood would be in allowing the event to dictate the truth. The event was just an event but the message that was installed in the victim is at the root and often ends up setting a person up to believe a lie. Applying the truth sets the captive FREE!
Spenlake, can you appreciate how I am framing this technique differently from you while I too am seeking after truth and have a passion to follow Christ?
Quest,
You are welcome to rework you memories in any way you wish and to construct whatever tools you want to to help ease your pain. While you may feel better, is it the gospel. The truth of the gospel has content. The example of Dr. Boyd is the issue that I am addressing. Does your technique ask you to repalce the memory with a historicla event with a false replacement event and do you give it a biblical label of "resting in Christ?" I think that we can experience comfort in looking at a historical event from a different perspective. One perspective that would be biblical would be to look at the abuse we suffered and the sins others committed against us in light of the abuse that Christ suffered on our behalf and the sins that we have committed against God. This is truth, the sure truth of the gospel and not imaginative historical replacements.
Do you believe that resting in Christ includes reworking memories with spirit-inspired replacement history (not just a different perspective)? Casting our cares upon Him is a good thing and He promises to care for us. How does this verse legitimize reworking memories with false replacement events. This is casting our eyes upon the false, not upon the truth, which is what he claims to be. You correctly state, "Applying the truth sets the captive FREE!" And yet in Dr. Boyd's example, he has applied the false and claims freedom. A false replacement historical event is not the truth, no matter how much you hope and believe it is. It still remains false. God's love expressed to us in His death on the cross, this is truth and not a replacement history. This truth will bring you eternal life and healing from our incurable wound - forever.
I am not at all stating that one might not find comfort in this exercise. I believe that they may. I am simply staing that this is not the gospel nor is it resting in Christ as Dr. Boyd claims. What you have written above is not what is written in the book.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/5/2004 3:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Spen Lake. Here is my response.quote:
Does your technique ask you to replace the memory with a historicla event with a false replacement event and do you give it a biblical label of "resting in Christ?"
I believe one of the reasons God gave us dreams and the imagination is to use it as a mini vacation (an escape) I believe we can rest in Christ through the gift of the imagination. Reworking the event with a different ending is not biblical of course but resting in Christ is. The imagination gives us this source of rest. Does this make sense? 
quote:
Do you believe that resting in Christ includes reworking memories with spirit-inspired replacement history (not just a different perspective)?
I believe the Spirit can inspire us to create new endings to a horrible event in order that we might be able to be set free. I believe that reworking memories can set the captive free and free the victim from the power of the sinful event. Is this different from what Dr. Boyd believes?
Thanks!
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/5/2004 2:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Hi Spen Lake. Here is my response.quote:
Does your technique ask you to replace the memory with a historicla event with a false replacement event and do you give it a biblical label of "resting in Christ?"
I believe one of the reasons God gave us dreams and the imagination is to use it as a mini vacation (an escape) I believe we can rest in Christ through the gift of the imagination. Reworking the event with a different ending is not biblical of course but resting in Christ is. The imagination gives us this source of rest. Does this make sense?
quote:
Do you believe that resting in Christ includes reworking memories with spirit-inspired replacement history (not just a different perspective)?
I believe the Spirit can inspire us to create new endings to a horrible event in order that we might be able to be set free. I believe that reworking memories can set the captive free and free the victim from the power of the sinful event. Is this different from what Dr. Boyd believes?
Thanks!
Qwest,
When you say, "The imagination gives us this source of rest. Does this make sense?" I understand what you mean but this is not the concept that Hebrews conveys to us concerning the rest of God.
Ps 95:10
10 “For forty years I loathed that generation,
And said they are a people who err in their heart,
And they do not know My ways.
11 “Therefore I swore in My anger,
Truly they shall not enter into My rest.”
Hebrews 3:18 states,
"And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief."
Hebrews 4:11, "Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."
None of these passages seems to support the idea that the imagination is the source of rest as you indicate. Rather, the rest is only accessed through obedience to the gospel. The source of rest is believing in the word of God and his work on the cross, not our imaginations. This is what I find the scriptures supporting.
Thank you for your acknowledgement that reworking memories through false replacement endings is not a Biblical concept. I believe that they can reduce pain caused by memories of traumatic events, but it is still not supported or mandated by scriptures. The difficulty that we have in Seeing is Believing is that Dr. Boyd defines his exercises with a biblical term, resting in Christ. Using a biblical term to describe his own non-biblical teaching is improper and misleading.
Even our experiences must be judged according to scriptures or we a liable to misinterpret them. If this sounds strange look at the record of the people in the time of Jeremiah. After all of the things predicted by Jeremiah regarding the destruction and judgment on Jerusalem had come to pass, the people still would not listen to or obey God’s word. They attributed their comfort and blessings to the Queen of Heaven. quote:
Jer 44:15, “15Then all the men who were aware that their wives were burning sacrifices to other gods, along with all the women who were standing by, as a large assembly, including all the people who were living in Pathros in the land of Egypt, responded to Jeremiah, saying, 16“As for the message that you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD, we are not going to listen to you! 17“But rather we will certainly carry out every word that has proceeded from our mouths, by burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, just as we ourselves, our forefathers, our kings and our princes did in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; for then we had plenty of food and were well off and saw no misfortune. 18“But since we stopped burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have met our end by the sword and by famine.”
While we may feel or “experience” comfort, directly attributing this comfort to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is unscriptural and therefore dangerous. My contention here hasn’t been whether “healing or reworking of the memories” through false replacement events is possible or not. The BBC article would indicate that it is. My contention is that claiming the label, “resting in Christ” for these exercises is an attack on the scripture and the gospel. The OV is staunchly defended on this site, when it comes to claiming to find freedom in the false, the defense of the gospel seems weak and lacking.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/5/2004 5:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
None of these passages seems to support the idea that the imagination is the source of rest as you indicate. Rather, the rest is only accessed through obedience to the gospel. The source of rest is believing in the word of God and his work on the cross, not our imaginations. This is what I find the scriptures supporting.
Spen Lake,
Truth is accessed ONLY through the gospel. I agree that believing in the Word and in the work on Calvary gives us a source of peace and rest but I disagree that the Holy Spirit cannot act within our minds (imaginations) to bring about truth and healing that lead to rest as well. I think John on Patmos is an example of the Holy Spirit working within imagination to speak truth. God created ALL of us and demands all of us. Why is it not conceivable for you that the Creator of the imagination cannot work within that part of our being? Please help me understand how you are not able to acknowledge the possibility of the Holy Spirit speaking truth to us through our imagination. If the Holy Spirit can then this I submit is gospel. The truth of God is the gospel message. BTW, thank you for your patience.
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/6/2004 1:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
quote:
None of these passages seems to support the idea that the imagination is the source of rest as you indicate. Rather, the rest is only accessed through obedience to the gospel. The source of rest is believing in the word of God and his work on the cross, not our imaginations. This is what I find the scriptures supporting.
Spen Lake,
Truth is accessed ONLY through the gospel. I agree that believing in the Word and in the work on Calvary gives us a source of peace and rest but I disagree that the Holy Spirit cannot act within our minds (imaginations) to bring about truth and healing that lead to rest as well. I think John on Patmos is an example of the Holy Spirit working within imagination to speak truth. God created ALL of us and demands all of us. Why is it not conceivable for you that the Creator of the imagination cannot work within that part of our being? Please help me understand how you are not able to acknowledge the possibility of the Holy Spirit speaking truth to us through our imagination. If the Holy Spirit can then this I submit is gospel. The truth of God is the gospel message. BTW, thank you for your patience.
Quest,
I have never said anything contrary to your statement, "Why is it not conceivable for you that the Creator of the imagination cannot work within that part of our being? Please help me understand how you are not able to acknowledge the possibility of the Holy Spirit speaking truth to us through our imagination. If the Holy Spirit can then this I submit is gospel." I think that you believe that I am saying that the Holy Spirit CAN'T work through our imagination. I don't believe this. The other posters are right when they say that dreams and visions may be events of our imagination (I would say a better definition is "heart" or in our spirit as I don't see the Bible using "imagination" as a defined term). In any case the Holy Spirit can affect us and influence us internally.
I think that I have been branded as a cessasionist when it isn't true. It is because I believe in the activity of spirits that I am cautious. If one didn't believe in spirits then the whole concept is different. I believe in both the Holy SPirit and other spirits, ones that have our greatest disinterest at heart.
The issue I raise and am opposing here is, Can one claim that the Bible:
1. tells us to find freedom in the false? Do scriptures indicate that the Holy Spirit inspires false replacement historical stories that we are to experience internally to find healing, comfort and the power to forgive? The emphasis is on the false. Does the Bible support that the Spirit of Truth leads us there through the false?
2. call this exercise "resting in CHrist?" Is it propoer and true to call this exercise "resting in Christ" which is a biblical term with eternal implications. Can "resting in Christ" be expereinced and achieved through experiencing false replacement stories?
This is the issue, Quest. If you think they can, then get the book and go at it. While I may have weird ideas and be on the fringe on certain concepts, I am squarely in the center of scriptural Christianity here. The gospel IS NOT "You shall know the false and the false shall set you free." The silence on theis board is testimony regarding the difficultly of defending the position that Dr. Boyd has outlined and given an example of in his book. They have taken to accusing me of falsely accusing because I take what the book says at face value and quote it's passages.
Spen Lake
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/6/2004 4:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Spen Lake,
I will think about this for a while. I wish Dr. Boyd would pop in about now to converse with you on here!
Have you tried emailing him personally to discuss this. I would be interested in what the author of the book has to personally say regarding your questions. Let me know if he's answered you and what he has said. This would be helpful for me.
I'll think for a while. Thanks for the interaction. I will be back at this later.
God bless! | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/6/2004 7:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake The false simply is not the truth. It gets hard to be more basic - the father of lies vs. the Spirit of Truth. The devil who IS a liar by nature and Jesus who IS the truth.
What spirit would a grandmother be lead by if she abused her grandchild? | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/6/2004 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake The false simply is not the truth. It gets hard to be more basic - the father of lies vs. the Spirit of Truth. The devil who IS a liar by nature and Jesus who IS the truth.
What spirit would a grandmother be lead by if she abused her grandchild?
Spark,
I know that the Spirit of God does not lead people into sin. When tempted no one should say that God is tempting me for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. Based upon this scripture, in as much as the grandmother was tempted and sinned, this could not be the Spirit of God that was leading her.
Back to the question, if grandma was NOT led by the Spirit of God, then is it safe to say that she was led by evil spirits? | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/6/2004 8:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake The false simply is not the truth. It gets hard to be more basic - the father of lies vs. the Spirit of Truth. The devil who IS a liar by nature and Jesus who IS the truth.
What spirit would a grandmother be lead by if she abused her grandchild?
Spark,
I know that the Spirit of God does not lead people into sin. When tempted no one should say that God is tempting me for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. Based upon this scripture, in as much as the grandmother was tempted and sinned, this could not be the Spirit of God that was leading her.
Back to the question, if grandma was NOT led by the Spirit of God, then is it safe to say that she was led by evil spirits?
Spark,
I don't remember that the grandmother claimed any inspiration for her actions. The passage in James tells us that we sin when we are led away by our own lusts. And when our lusts conceeive they give birth to sin. An when sin is mature, it gives birth to death.
Getting back to the question, why does she have to be led by any spirit? Why couldn't she have chosen to sin on her own? Do you beleive that every action is led by one spirit or the other? I believe that there are only two kingdoms, but I believe that we can and do choose to sin on our own.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/6/2004 9:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake The false simply is not the truth. It gets hard to be more basic - the father of lies vs. the Spirit of Truth. The devil who IS a liar by nature and Jesus who IS the truth.
What spirit would a grandmother be lead by if she abused her grandchild?
Spark,
I know that the Spirit of God does not lead people into sin. When tempted no one should say that God is tempting me for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. Based upon this scripture, in as much as the grandmother was tempted and sinned, this could not be the Spirit of God that was leading her.
Back to the question, if grandma was NOT led by the Spirit of God, then is it safe to say that she was led by evil spirits?
Spark,
Getting back to the question, why does she have to be led by any spirit? Why couldn't she have chosen to sin on her own? Do you beleive that every action is led by one spirit or the other? I believe that there are only two kingdoms, but I believe that we can and do choose to sin on our own.
Matthew 12:30 (NIV)
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.
John 18:36 (NIV)
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
There is no medium between loving the Lord and being his enemy—between belonging to Christ or to Satan.
Did grandma choose to be led by evil spirits?
| | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/6/2004 10:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake The false simply is not the truth. It gets hard to be more basic - the father of lies vs. the Spirit of Truth. The devil who IS a liar by nature and Jesus who IS the truth.
What spirit would a grandmother be lead by if she abused her grandchild?
Spark,
I know that the Spirit of God does not lead people into sin. When tempted no one should say that God is tempting me for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. Based upon this scripture, in as much as the grandmother was tempted and sinned, this could not be the Spirit of God that was leading her.
Back to the question, if grandma was NOT led by the Spirit of God, then is it safe to say that she was led by evil spirits?
Spark,
Getting back to the question, why does she have to be led by any spirit? Why couldn't she have chosen to sin on her own? Do you beleive that every action is led by one spirit or the other? I believe that there are only two kingdoms, but I believe that we can and do choose to sin on our own.
Matthew 12:30 (NIV)
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.
There is no medium between loving the Lord and being his enemy—between belonging to Christ or to Satan.
Did grandma choose to be led by evil spirits?
Of course there are only two kingdoms. This does not mean that spirits make us sin. James lays the blame squarely on the individual. Jesus was led into the wilderness by the spirit to be tempted by the devil. He did not sin because spirits don't MAKE us sin. We choose to sin because we want to. This is what James says, our own lusts give birth to sin. Are you saying that Dr. Boyd's grandmother sinned because whe was led by an evil spirit? I don't think that scirpture blames sin on Satan alone.
It is interesting to me that this poor grandmother whose daughter had died, she is doing her best to raise her daughter's children on her won while the husband is off working. This sounds like a noble effort on her part and kindness in the face of her own personal sacrifices to help her grandchildren out.
I think a fair picture of the grandmother would also include this. She could have avoided this "sin" altogether if she had simply refused to take in 3 little children. I am not excusing her, but I think that little Greg might have been much more traumatized and damaged if he was in the street than where he was.
This is the terrible person that Greggie's Jesus called bad and rebuked.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/6/2004 10:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake The false simply is not the truth. It gets hard to be more basic - the father of lies vs. the Spirit of Truth. The devil who IS a liar by nature and Jesus who IS the truth.
What spirit would a grandmother be lead by if she abused her grandchild?
Spark,
I know that the Spirit of God does not lead people into sin. When tempted no one should say that God is tempting me for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. Based upon this scripture, in as much as the grandmother was tempted and sinned, this could not be the Spirit of God that was leading her.
Back to the question, if grandma was NOT led by the Spirit of God, then is it safe to say that she was led by evil spirits?
Spark,
Getting back to the question, why does she have to be led by any spirit? Why couldn't she have chosen to sin on her own? Do you beleive that every action is led by one spirit or the other? I believe that there are only two kingdoms, but I believe that we can and do choose to sin on our own.
Matthew 12:30 (NIV)
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.
There is no medium between loving the Lord and being his enemy—between belonging to Christ or to Satan.
Did grandma choose to be led by evil spirits?
Of course there are only two kingdoms. This does not mean that spirits make us sin
I understand it is a choice, and that she might have made a lot more choices in her lifetime to follow good spirits over evil spirits. But in this one case, did she choose to be led by evil spirits from the god of this age, the kingdom of this world? | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/6/2004 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I can't prove she was "led" by any spirits. The record doesn't say. Sinful actions are attributed to our own lusts, not the spirits that lead us.
Is all that is good in this world attributed to God? | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/6/2004 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
All good gift come down from the Father above. It rains on the just and the unjust and He gives the world its food.
True, the love of God rains on all. The difference is that some people absorb the living water while others just get wet.
Do we have to choose between the two kingdoms, if we do not choose, are we by default being led by the god of this age. Yes or No?
Think about it, I have to go. | | Back to Top | | |
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