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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > For Pastors:The Chief Shepherd's Heart on Abortion | Forum Quick Jump
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 6/8/2004 6:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | SwanLake,
quote:
BemaBound: And I also learned that in order to have grandchildren, one must first have children - who, by the way, are also a blessing...
Sorry that you didn't catch that this was "tongue-in-cheek." It was just my way of saying, "If you think children are a blessing, just wait 'till you have grandchildren! And, "Yes, grandchildren are a lot easier than children (a lot less work than children), but you can't just go from no children to grandchildren." In other words, once you do the grunt work of children, you not only get the great reward of grown children, but you get the great blessing of grandchildren. By the way, it's extremely delightful to be with our married children (now 28 and 29). It's just very hard to describe the manifold blessings in having children and grandchildren, and it appears that my communication failed. Perhaps I'll write a song about it.
Be bless'd,
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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SwanLake
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 6/8/2004 7:02 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BemaBound
SwanLake,
Sorry that you didn't catch that this was "tongue-in-cheek." It was just my way of saying, "If you think children are a blessing, just wait 'till you have grandchildren! And, "Yes, grandchildren are a lot easier than children (a lot less work than children), but you can't just go from no children to grandchildren." In other words, once you do the grunt work of children, you not only get the great reward of grown children, but you get the great blessing of grandchildren. By the way, it's extremely delightful to be with our married children (now 28 and 29). It's just very hard to describe the manifold blessings in having children and grandchildren, and it appears that my communication failed. Perhaps I'll write a song about it.
Oh, O.K.
1. children are a blessing
2. grandchildren are a blessing
3. grandchildren are easier than children
4. you can't just go from no children to grandchildren
A song would be nice.
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 6/8/2004 11:28 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 6/8/2004 4:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Tigress,
quote:
And I wasn't using technology to justify the use of contraception.
I wasn't referring to the idea of "using technology to justify the use of contraception." I was mainly saying that what is obvious is that God intends reproduction. The fact that it is possible to get around it is not a basis for interpreting what God wishes. If, indeed, God is indifferent to couples abstaining from having children, that is NOT as obvious as is the fact that reproduction, in a general way, IS intended.
Thus, abortion requires much greater justification than the mere fact that there are women who don't want to reproduce. I AM sensitive to the FACT that some people don't want kids. But I am MORE sensitive to the tragedy of abortion for the reasons stated above and in previous posts to this thread. Like I said previously, God doled out the death penalty for one who accidentally caused a woman to have a miscarriage. That speaks volumes about God's estimation of the value of life over that of mere convenience.
In other words, just because there are issues on both sides of the question, we should know which issues are "weightier." This is what Christ rebuked the Pharisees for - they strained at a gnat but swallowed camels.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/8/2004 10:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Hello all,
I appreciate the light-hearted humour that appears from time to time, especially in such intense threads, and abortion is a topic that can (& should no doubt) be passionately discussed.
Having been through this, and having heard so many views about it, I feel like I have discovered what is most important in all of this - and that is grace.
W. H. Auden said, "I know nothing, except what everyone knows --- if there when Grace dances, I should dance."
I appreciate everyone's thoughts on the subject, and am doing more reading these days and editing (at home), than posting.
Bema, I have really appreciated what you have had to contribute and passed along the SLED info. to some counsellor friends who felt it would be very helpful.
Parenting is a blessing, when two people love each other and decide they want to share their love in that way. No grandchildren yet, but it sounds like they are more fun (without the work). I respect the decision of others not to be parents, but can't imagine not having ours. Ours have taught me a lot about myself, about the Lord, about life... They are a reflection of His love for me.
Abortion is a tragedy.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 6/9/2004 4:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Tigress,
quote:
And I wasn't using technology to justify the use of contraception.
I wasn't referring to the idea of "using technology to justify the use of contraception." I was mainly saying that what is obvious is that God intends reproduction. The fact that it is possible to get around it is not a basis for interpreting what God wishes. If, indeed, God is indifferent to couples abstaining from having children, that is NOT as obvious as is the fact that reproduction, in a general way, IS intended.
Thus, abortion requires much greater justification than the mere fact that there are women who don't want to reproduce. I AM sensitive to the FACT that some people don't want kids. But I am MORE sensitive to the tragedy of abortion for the reasons stated above and in previous posts to this thread. Like I said previously, God doled out the death penalty for one who accidentally caused a woman to have a miscarriage. That speaks volumes about God's estimation of the value of life over that of mere convenience.
In other words, just because there are issues on both sides of the question, we should know which issues are "weightier." This is what Christ rebuked the Pharisees for - they strained at a gnat but swallowed camels.
I wasn't saying that a person not wanting to have children justifies abortion. I was saying that we need to respect and validate a woman's feelings about not wanting children while at the same time encouraging her to not have an abortion. She's more likely to have the baby if she doesn't feel like everyone is dismissing how she really feels. I have found that meeting someone halfway goes a really long way.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/9/2004 4:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Self sacrifice is the greatest act of true love for both God and man, husband and wife, parent and child. The ultimate sacrificial love was demonstrated on the cross. Abortion has to be one of the most selfish acts conceivable. No pun intended.
Shalom,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 6/9/2004 5:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne, Jefscott,
I rejoice with you in your joys of parenthood. May you be bless'd with greater and greater joys.
quote:
I put this P.S. at the end (of course), but thought that it would be best to put it up front. So, we'll still call it a P.S. - (pre-script):
P.S. To Tigress, or to anyone else who is offended by this message: Before you write me back as being "judgmental" and "condemning"- remember: I said a person who doesn't buy in to this doesn't mean that they're not thoroughly loved by God and/or not a Christian. A good question to answer is: what do you expect me to do if this is my conviction? If I am silent, I hold back a possible blessing from you (if this is truth), and I’d be guilty of not speaking the truth in love - for I don't think you'll find a critical spirit in what I'm saying. I am not unaware of how "opinionated" this message sounds. It's just that I believe with all my heart that we have been so influenced by our culture, that the Christian message today ends up being quite "counter-cultural."
Let me put it this way: if you think what I am saying is critical and judgmental, I’m totally open for anyone to coach me in how I can say this with more love. If one says, "You can't say it in love - because the message itself is unloving.", then that person is telling me that I should not even share my conviction - no matter how lovingly I share it. Like, how would you, in love, tell the homosexual that he/she was not born a homosexual and that God cannot bless the homosexual relationship? (when you find out how to do that, please tell me... I've been struggling to find out how to do this but keep being called "judgmental" and "unloving.")
So, if it's the message that's offensive, then check it with God's word and with a person who is mature. All I'm asking is to not mix the message with the way - the spirit - in which it's being said. If you can show me that this message is against the Scripture (not culture.. Scripture), then I'm willing to be challenged and to grow.
I was thinking…perhaps it's just fear that motivates a married person to choose to not have children. Yes, there are some real legitimate fears of having to raise little ones. Those little image bearers have their own will, and us parents don't have complete control of them. These little ones can actually break our hearts from time to time. They can get hurt by life, by others, and some hurts you and I don't have control of preventing. Pretty scary stuff. Yet, we all have had the experience of the great joys these little blessings give us (and big blessings when they grow older). Children help us face ourselves and help us to grow in ways that bring character to our souls, and richness to our lives.
quote:
Rom 14:23 ...for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
Fear does not proceed from faith. We ought to have compassion on those who have fears, but if a brother or a sister is bound up in fear, then a loving exhortation is appropriate. A fear of having children or a fear of being married is a fear that needs to be overcome.
As long as one can say, "I am choosing to not get married..." or "I'm choosing to not have children, but it's not because I'm afraid; I have overcome my fears and I'm doing this by faith" then that person has appropriated God's grace and is free. However, if a Christian (who is "more than a conqueror..." Rom. 8:37) chooses to not face their fears and overcome them, how is this faith? And how is this not sin?
But something doesn't sound right when a person says, “By faith, in order to please my Lord, I will not get married so that I can have more freedom to do what I like to do” or “By faith, in order to please my Lord, I will not have children with my husband so that we can have more intimacy together.” It just doesn’t have that ring of genuineness to it. Our idea of intimacy is enjoying the comforts of life together. God's idea of intimacy is going through the battle together. We become close to God and to each other through the struggles that we go through together.
If a person chooses to not get married because they are afraid of getting hurt in the relationship, then how is this faith? ...and whatever is not of faith is sin. And if a person chooses to not have children because they're afraid that some of their freedoms may be lost (and they will, but new and richer freedoms are experienced) then how is this proceeding from faith? ...and whatever is not of faith is sin. I'm not saying that this fearful person isn't loved by God. I'm not saying that this fearful person is not a Christian going to heaven. I'm just saying what the Bible says, "Whatever is not of faith is sin."
It's one thing to hear, "I've been in terrible relationships, and I'm not ready to jump in to another one - so, I'm going to take my time before I consider marriage with someone." It's another thing to hear, "I will never get married - it's just too much work - and I'm afraid of being hurt again." Yes, the Christian has that choice of faith or of fear. It's a choice to either hold on to the Lord's hand and have faith and get the healing and courage one needs to move into a relationship (and/or to have children if they’re married) or to retreat in fear and self-protection. As far as I see, unless a person has a "gift" to be single, that person has the "gift" to be married.
quote:
1 Cor 7:7 I wish that all men were as I am [being single for Jesus]. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
Singleness and being married are both called gifts. The Bible speaks of the Kingdom of God - and in His Kingdom there are these two choices. The same is true for having a family. Kingdom thinking is: you get married so that you can raise a family. Sure, in this kingdom of the world there are many choices outside of Kingdom choices.
I understand Christians today are saying, "Well, I don't think I have the gift to be single, but I have things to do, places to see. I like my freedom. And I don’t believe it’s a sin to not get married - so I'm just going to stay single.” There's always a combination of selfishness and fear (and some ignorance as well) that goes into those decisions. And why? If a person is choosing singlenses, according to Paul, it's to be fully devoted to Jesus - not for extra freedoms. That’s “kingdom thinking.” Sure, a Christian has to opportunity to choose this single lifestyle out of fear and selfishness - but they're going against their God-given design and purpose if they don't have that gift to be single. And how is it that we have not been affected (and infected) with the "individualistic" mindset of our day?
When life is "all about me" then this mindset makes a whole lot of sense. But when it's about God and His Kingdom, and what contribution I can make in the world, then having children takes on a whole new meaning. Yes, your child (not yet born) may be the one who discovers a cure for a cancer, or passes on some of Jesus' love to a world that's starved for it. And under the loving instruction of Christian parents, that child is set up for success.
People have so disconnected themselves from God's design and purpose and from a sense of community, that alternative lifestyles - outside of God's design and purpose - are starting to become the norm. "Alternative lifestyles" such as homosexuality, choosing singleness out of fear and selfishness, and being married and not having children are considered more and more normal. And watch out if you evaluate these lifestlyes in light of God's word and His Kindgom; you become "judgmental," "harsh" and “extremely unloving."
We have become blind. We can’t even see how strange it is to go against our design, or, as Jefscot so wisely says:
quote:
Parental love is instinctive; once you have a child, it kicks in independent of any thing you might have felt or NOT felt previously - unless you are utterly selfish.
I'm sure every Christian woman wants to aspire to be that virtuous woman (as seen in Proverbs 31). Sure, the Christian woman has the choice to be a "not-so virtuous woman." Again, there are sound reasons for a woman to not have children. Either she is called to be single for Kingdom purposes, or it is not possible for her to have children. But, if that's not the case, the virtuous woman did have children.
"Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her..." Prov 31:28
Perhaps the woman who is afraid to have children can get a friend who will help her work through her fears, so that the children that are yet to be born to her can one day arise and call her "blessed."
Be blessed,
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/9/2004 6:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BemaBound
You make a great point about the missionary couple you support. This seems to be a valid exception. I can see this situation as a couple moving in faith - to please their Lord, and with "Kingdom-thinking" mindset - so, I stand corrected. Also, in a way, they are, as you say, parenting children.
You point, however, about a spouse and/or children can turn us from God is not a valid one.
quote:
Laika: A spouse and children are great but they can also turn us from God.
We turn ourselves from God - we can't say, "It's your fault that I'm not following God." That would reduce us to robots.
Yes, it's our own fault. But having 300 wives might help a bit... 
1 Kings 11:4 For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/9/2004 7:10 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by BemaBound
You make a great point about the missionary couple you support. This seems to be a valid exception. I can see this situation as a couple moving in faith - to please their Lord, and with "Kingdom-thinking" mindset - so, I stand corrected. Also, in a way, they are, as you say, parenting children.
You point, however, about a spouse and/or children can turn us from God is not a valid one.
quote:
Laika: A spouse and children are great but they can also turn us from God.
We turn ourselves from God - we can't say, "It's your fault that I'm not following God." That would reduce us to robots.
Yes, it's our own fault. But having 300 wives might help a bit...
1 Kings 11:4 For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
Maybe Solomon was a professional basketball player.
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 6/9/2004 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BemaBound
Jo-Anne, Jefscott,
I rejoice with you in your joys of parenthood. May you be bless'd with greater and greater joys.
quote:
I put this P.S. at the end (of course), but thought that it would be best to put it up front. So, we'll still call it a P.S. - (pre-script):
P.S. To Tigress, or to anyone else who is offended by this message: Before you write me back as being "judgmental" and "condemning"- remember: I said a person who doesn't buy in to this doesn't mean that they're not thoroughly loved by God and/or not a Christian. A good question to answer is: what do you expect me to do if this is my conviction? If I am silent, I hold back a possible blessing from you (if this is truth), and I’d be guilty of not speaking the truth in love - for I don't think you'll find a critical spirit in what I'm saying. I am not unaware of how "opinionated" this message sounds. It's just that I believe with all my heart that we have been so influenced by our culture, that the Christian message today ends up being quite "counter-cultural."
Let me put it this way: if you think what I am saying is critical and judgmental, I’m totally open for anyone to coach me in how I can say this with more love. If one says, "You can't say it in love - because the message itself is unloving.", then that person is telling me that I should not even share my conviction - no matter how lovingly I share it. Like, how would you, in love, tell the homosexual that he/she was not born a homosexual and that God cannot bless the homosexual relationship? (when you find out how to do that, please tell me... I've been struggling to find out how to do this but keep being called "judgmental" and "unloving.")
So, if it's the message that's offensive, then check it with God's word and with a person who is mature. All I'm asking is to not mix the message with the way - the spirit - in which it's being said. If you can show me that this message is against the Scripture (not culture.. Scripture), then I'm willing to be challenged and to grow.
I was thinking…perhaps it's just fear that motivates a married person to choose to not have children. Yes, there are some real legitimate fears of having to raise little ones. Those little image bearers have their own will, and us parents don't have complete control of them. These little ones can actually break our hearts from time to time. They can get hurt by life, by others, and some hurts you and I don't have control of preventing. Pretty scary stuff. Yet, we all have had the experience of the great joys these little blessings give us (and big blessings when they grow older). Children help us face ourselves and help us to grow in ways that bring character to our souls, and richness to our lives.
quote:
Rom 14:23 ...for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
Fear does not proceed from faith. We ought to have compassion on those who have fears, but if a brother or a sister is bound up in fear, then a loving exhortation is appropriate. A fear of having children or a fear of being married is a fear that needs to be overcome.
As long as one can say, "I am choosing to not get married..." or "I'm choosing to not have children, but it's not because I'm afraid; I have overcome my fears and I'm doing this by faith" then that person has appropriated God's grace and is free. However, if a Christian (who is "more than a conqueror..." Rom. 8:37) chooses to not face their fears and overcome them, how is this faith? And how is this not sin?
But something doesn't sound right when a person says, “By faith, in order to please my Lord, I will not get married so that I can have more freedom to do what I like to do” or “By faith, in order to please my Lord, I will not have children with my husband so that we can have more intimacy together.” It just doesn’t have that ring of genuineness to it. Our idea of intimacy is enjoying the comforts of life together. God's idea of intimacy is going through the battle together. We become close to God and to each other through the struggles that we go through together.
If a person chooses to not get married because they are afraid of getting hurt in the relationship, then how is this faith? ...and whatever is not of faith is sin. And if a person chooses to not have children because they're afraid that some of their freedoms may be lost (and they will, but new and richer freedoms are experienced) then how is this proceeding from faith? ...and whatever is not of faith is sin. I'm not saying that this fearful person isn't loved by God. I'm not saying that this fearful person is not a Christian going to heaven. I'm just saying what the Bible says, "Whatever is not of faith is sin."
It's one thing to hear, "I've been in terrible relationships, and I'm not ready to jump in to another one - so, I'm going to take my time before I consider marriage with someone." It's another thing to hear, "I will never get married - it's just too much work - and I'm afraid of being hurt again." Yes, the Christian has that choice of faith or of fear. It's a choice to either hold on to the Lord's hand and have faith and get the healing and courage one needs to move into a relationship (and/or to have children if they’re married) or to retreat in fear and self-protection. As far as I see, unless a person has a "gift" to be single, that person has the "gift" to be married.
quote:
1 Cor 7:7 I wish that all men were as I am [being single for Jesus]. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
Singleness and being married are both called gifts. The Bible speaks of the Kingdom of God - and in His Kingdom there are these two choices. The same is true for having a family. Kingdom thinking is: you get married so that you can raise a family. Sure, in this kingdom of the world there are many choices outside of Kingdom choices.
I understand Christians today are saying, "Well, I don't think I have the gift to be single, but I have things to do, places to see. I like my freedom. And I don’t believe it’s a sin to not get married - so I'm just going to stay single.” There's always a combination of selfishness and fear (and some ignorance as well) that goes into those decisions. And why? If a person is choosing singlenses, according to Paul, it's to be fully devoted to Jesus - not for extra freedoms. That’s “kingdom thinking.” Sure, a Christian has to opportunity to choose this single lifestyle out of fear and selfishness - but they're going against their God-given design and purpose if they don't have that gift to be single. And how is it that we have not been affected (and infected) with the "individualistic" mindset of our day?
When life is "all about me" then this mindset make a whole lot of sense. But when it's about God and His Kingdom, and what contribution I can make in the world, then having children takes on a whole new meaning. Yes, your child (not yet born) may be the one who discovers a cure for a cancer, or passes on some of Jesus' love to a world that's starved for it. And whit Christian parents, that child is set up for success.
People have so disconnected themselves from God's design and purpose and from a sense of community, that alternative lifestyles - outside of God's design and purpose - are starting to become the norm. "Alternative lifestyles" such as homosexuality, choosing singleness out of fear and selfishness, and being married and not having children are considered more and more normal. And watch out if you evaluate these lifestlyes in light of God's word and His Kindgom; you become "judgmental," "harsh" and “extremely unloving."
We have become blind. We can’t even see how strange it is to go against our design, or, as Jefscot so wisely says:
quote:
Parental love is instinctive; once you have a child, it kicks in independent of any thing you might have felt or NOT felt previously - unless you are utterly selfish.
I'm sure every Christian woman wants to aspire to be that virtuous woman (as seen in Proverbs 31). Sure, the Christian woman has the choice to be a "not-so virtuous woman." Again, there are sound reasons for a woman to not have children. Either she is called to be single for Kingdom purposes, or it is not possible for her to have children. But, if that's not the case, the virtuous woman did have children.
"Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her..." Prov 31:28
Perhaps the woman who is afraid to have children can get a friend who will help her work through her fears, so that the children that are yet to be born to her can one day arise and call her "blessed."
Be blessed,
Oh my gosh! You're arguing that because we've got reproductive organs that automatically means God intended us to always reproduce?! Give me a break! I'm sorry, arguments from nature don't hold up in important decision-making.
And you want to talk about selfishness? I'd bet everything that you didn't get married for completely self-sacrificing reasons and to obey God. And I bet you didn't have children in that frame of mind, either. And just because you wanted a woman to be intimate and grow old with doesn't mean you were sinning by having those selfish reasons for wanting to marry one. And just because you had selfish reasons for having children - whatever they may be - doesn't mean it was sinful. So, it's not sinful selfishness for me to want a less burdened marriage by not having kids. I don't doubt that it's selfish, but I also don't think it's really a sin in this case by not "showing faith in God". Some selfishness is about what's best for all concerned and I know that I'd be a much happier and more productive Christian with it being just me and my husband.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/9/2004 8:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Maybe Solomon was a professional basketball player.
Half of Solomon's marriages were just to Elizabeth Taylor.
That is so funny! | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/9/2004 11:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Self sacrifice is the greatest act of true love for both God and man, husband and wife, parent and child. The ultimate sacrificial love was demonstrated on the cross. Abortion has to be one of the most selfish acts conceivable. No pun intended.
Shalom,
Mark
Yeah, we're all aware of that Sparknheart. What's your point?
Hello Tigress,
My comment was not directed towards you in particular. I’m sorry if you feel that I have over emphasized the importance of sacrificial love. Personally, I don’t think it is emphasized enough. In today’s culture all we hear about is me, me, and me. What can God do for me, what can my spouse do for me? What can the Government do for me? Etcetera, the list goes on and on. Unfortunately when it is time to be accountable the me, me, me attitude turns the focus around and blames others.
It sounds like the couple from Laika's church made a great sacrifice in choosing not to have children so they can further the work of God’s Kingdom. I applaud them and anyone that can make sacrifices for God and others. It does not sound like a selfish decision by this couple to choose not to have any children; on the contrary, it seems similar to the sacrifice of not getting married so one can devote themselves to ministry liked Saint Paul touched on:
1 Cor. 7:32-35 (NIV)
I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs--how he can please the Lord. [33] But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world--how he can please his wife-- [34] and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world--how she can please her husband. [35] I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.
Some single people feel tremendous pressure to be married. They think their lives can be complete only with a spouse. But Paul underlines one advantage of being single—the potential of a greater focus on Christ and his work. If you are unmarried, use your special opportunity to serve Christ wholeheartedly.
Blessings,
Mark
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 6/9/2004 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Self sacrifice is the greatest act of true love for both God and man, husband and wife, parent and child. The ultimate sacrificial love was demonstrated on the cross. Abortion has to be one of the most selfish acts conceivable. No pun intended.
Shalom,
Mark
Yeah, we're all aware of that Sparknheart. What's your point?
Hello Tigress,
My comment was not directed towards you in particular. I’m sorry if you feel that I have over emphasized the importance of sacrificial love. Personally, I don’t think it is emphasized enough. In today’s culture all we hear about is me, me, and me. What can God do for me, what can my spouse do for me? What can the Government do for me? Etcetera, the list goes on and on. Unfortunately when it is time to be accountable the me, me, me attitude turns the focus around and blames others.
It sounds like the couple from Laika's church made a great sacrifice in choosing not to have children so they can further the work of God’s Kingdom. I applaud them and anyone that can make sacrifices for God and others. It does not sound like a selfish decision by this couple to choose not to have any children; on the contrary, it seems similar to the sacrifice of not getting married so one can devote themselves to ministry liked Saint Paul touched on:
1 Cor. 7:32-35 (NIV)
I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs--how he can please the Lord. [33] But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world--how he can please his wife-- [34] and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world--how she can please her husband. [35] I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.
Some single people feel tremendous pressure to be married. They think their lives can be complete only with a spouse. But Paul underlines one advantage of being single—the potential of a greater focus on Christ and his work. If you are unmarried, use your special opportunity to serve Christ wholeheartedly.
Blessings,
Mark
I just don't think personal desires should always be considered so horribly sinful. How is having children in marriage a ministry to anyone other than the children? To me, it makes more sense to not have children so that you and your spouse can help others in the world who are already having major problems. Look at Priscilla and Aquila. I don't think the Bible mentions if they had children, but it sounds like whether they did or not, they had a tremendous impact on Paul. They could do that with or without children.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 6/10/2004 6:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Tigress: Oh my gosh! You're arguing that because we've got reproductive organs that automatically means God intended us to always reproduce?! Give me a break! I'm sorry, arguments from nature don't hold up in important decision-making.
Built-in to design is purpose. God is a God of purpose. He does things for a reason – with purpose. All that He designs has purpose built-in to it. George Orwell said, “Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious.”
Arguments from natural design:
PHYSICAL DESIGN: I have feet. If I choose to never walk, is this a sin?
SPIRITUAL DESIGN: I have a motivational gift from God (according to Rom. 12:6-8). If I choose to not use that gift, is this a sin?
INTERNAL DESIGN: I have reproductive organs. If I get married and choose to not have children, is this a sin?
RELATIONAL DESIGN: I have the ability to love a person. If I choose to not love - and choose rather to isolate from others - is this a sin?
MARITIAL DESIGN: It is not good that man be alone. If I choose to be alone (but not for the kingdom of God purposes), is this a sin?
GLORIOUS DESIGN: Unlike the animals, mankind has the ability to think a thought – to reason. If I choose not to think and reason, is this a sin?
The only motive that would justify choosing to not move according to the God-given purpose of a God-given design (within God's Word and His ways) seems to be faith which is motivated by love (i.e. – choosing to be single and have no children for the sake of love – for the sake of God’s kingdom). Jefscott was simply making an argument from design. You are unwittingly making an argument against design. The onus is on you to explain why a God of purpose put that reproductive system in you if it’s not for the purpose of having children.
Today, the argument from design cries out for reasonable people to state and restate the obvious answer to this question: “Observe two couples: two men together sexually. Then look at a man and woman together sexually. Look at the outside design of both couples. Look at the internal design of the both couples. Which two fit? - not just physically and sexually, but which couple fits best for society’s good? The Federal Marriage Amendment is simply a restatement of the obvious. It’s based on an argument from design. It was obvious for all people and for all of history that marriage is defined by one man and one woman.
quote:
Tigress: And you want to talk about selfishness? I'd bet everything that you didn't get married for completely self-sacrificing reasons and to obey God. And I bet you didn't have children in that frame of mind, either.
I freely admit that when I got married it was for selfish purposes. God tricked me – and I’m glad He did. After a while, though, some people grow up and realize that marriage is not about “ME AND MY DESIRES BEING FULFILLED.” I think I'm starting to grow up – learning to think more like a man than a child (1 Cor. 13:11). I’m learning every day what it means to lay my life down for my wife.
God (lovingly) tricks us by giving us emotional and sexual drives for intimacy (else no one would get married when they figure out that marriage is mainly an opportunity to develop character; to face ourselves – our fears and our selfishness). Without marriage, most of us (if not all of us)would never come face to face with the utter selfishness of our souls. Oh, children help us to face these things too. Those who boldly proclaim, "I want intimacy" usually know not what they’re asking for. Asking for intimacy is asking God to help me to lose my freedoms and to lose my life only to find it in a way that I wasn't expecting.
quote:
Tigress: How is having children in marriage a ministry to anyone other than the children?
We have children not only to bless those children, but to bless the world. “Susanna Wesley, with seventeen children, spent one hour each day shut up with God alone in her room, praying for them – and her two sons, under God, brought revival to England while France waltered in the blood of a ghastly revolution.” [quote from Encyclopedia of 7700 Illustrations by Paul Lee Tan].
My daughter and her husband are preparing for a long-term overseas mission adventure – with their 3 children. The blessing that my child (my daughter) and her children will be to others will only be known when we get to our eternal home and reap our eternal rewards. I’m only desiring here that all people would have these rewards – and greater; not only in this life, but in the life to come. How can this desire be anything but good?
If it's your choice to be married and not have children, then I only wish for you the greatest blessing that God could give you within that choice. I'm simply desiring the best for you - of what I understand to be the best.
Be bless’d,
THE DEAL
A half a century ago,
out from the depths of hell
a murderous demon did arise
to find a place to dwell
the spirit of contraception
was it’s name – it is believed;
and the spirit of abortion
was the baby it conceived.
“Control the womb – at any cost;”
the wicked spirit cries;
“It belongs to you – and not to Him!”
and she believes his lies.
“Just cut this deal with me
and I will give you much control;
Then I’ll sit back and laugh at you,
for I have won your soul.”
- MJL
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