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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 6/10/2004 6:58 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by BemaBound
quote:
Tigress: Oh my gosh! You're arguing that because we've got reproductive organs that automatically means God intended us to always reproduce?! Give me a break! I'm sorry, arguments from nature don't hold up in important decision-making.
Built-in to design is purpose. God is a God of purpose. He does things for a reason – with purpose. All that He designs has purpose built-in to it. George Orwell said, “Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious.” I
Arguments from natural design:
PHYSICAL DESIGN: I have feet. If I choose to never walk, is this a sin?
SPIRITUAL DESIGN: I have a motivational gift from God (according to Rom. 12:6-8). If I choose to not use that gift, is this a sin?
INTERNAL DESIGN: I have reproductive organs. If I get married and choose to not have children, is this a sin?
RELATIONAL DESIGN: I have the ability to love a person. If I choose to not love - and choose rather to isolate from others - is this a sin?
MARITIAL DESIGN: It is not good that man be alone. If I choose to be alone (but not for the kingdom of God purposes), is this a sin?
GLORIOUS DESIGN: Unlike the animals, mankind has the ability to think a thought – to reason. If I choose not to think and reason, is this a sin?
The only motive that would justify choosing to not move according to the God-given purpose of a God-given design (within God's Word and His ways) seems to be faith which is motivated by love (i.e. – choosing to be single and have no children for the sake of love – for the sake of God’s kingdom). Jefscott was simply making an argument from design. You are unwittingly making an argument against design. The onus is on you to explain why a God of purpose put that reproductive system in you if it’s not for the purpose of having children.
Today, the argument from design cries out for reasonable people to state and restate the obvious answer to this question: “Observe two couples: two men together sexually. Then look at a man and woman together sexually. Look at the outside design of both couples. Look at the internal design of the both couples. Which two fit? - not just physically and sexually, but which couple fits best for society’s good? The Federal Marriage Amendment is simply a restatement of the obvious. It’s based on an argument from design. It was obvious for all people and for all of history that marriage is defined by one man and one woman.
quote:
Tigress: And you want to talk about selfishness? I'd bet everything that you didn't get married for completely self-sacrificing reasons and to obey God. And I bet you didn't have children in that frame of mind, either.
I freely admit that when I got married it was for selfish purposes. God tricked me – and I’m glad He did. After a while, though, some people grow up and realize that marriage is not about “ME AND MY DESIRES BEING FULFILLED.” I think I'm starting to grow up – learning to think more like a man than a child (1 Cor. 13:11). I’m learning every day what it means to lay my life down for my wife.
God (lovingly) tricks us by giving us emotional and sexual drives for intimacy (else no one would get married when they figure out that marriage is mainly an opportunity to develop character; to face ourselves – our fears and our selfishness. Without marriage, most of us (if not all of us)would never come face to face with the utter selfishness of our souls. Oh, children help us to face these things too). Those who boldly proclaim, "I want intimacy" usually don't know what they’re asking for. Asking for intimacy is asking God to help me to lose my freedoms and to lose my life only to find it in a way that I wasn't expecting.
quote:
Tigress: How is having children in marriage a ministry to anyone other than the children?
We have children not only to bless those children, but to bless the world. “Susanna Wesley, with seventeen children, spent one hour each day shut up with God alone in her room, praying for them – and her two sons, under God, brought revival to England while France waltered in the blood of a ghastly revolution.” [quote from Encyclopedia of 7700 Illustrations by Paul Lee Tan].
My daughter and her husband are preparing for a long-term overseas mission adventure – with their 3 children. The blessing that my child (my daughter) and her children will be to others will only be known when we get to our eternal home and reap our eternal rewards. I’m only desiring here that all people would have these rewards – and greater; not only in this life, but in the life to come. How can this desire be anything but good?
If it's your choice to be married and not have children, then I only wish for you the greatest blessing that God could give you within that choice. I'm simply desiring the best for you - of what I understand to be the best.
Be bless’d,
THE DEAL
A half a century ago,
out from the depths of hell
a murderous demon did arise
to find a place to dwell
the spirit of contraception
was it’s name – it is believed;
and the spirit of abortion
was the baby it conceived.
“Control the womb – at any cost;”
the wicked spirit cries;
“It belongs to you – and not to Him!”
and she believes his lies.
“Just cut this deal with me
and I will give you much control;
Then I’ll sit back and laugh at you,
for I have won your soul.”
- MJL
So, every single little thing we do always has to be done for the Kingdom of God? According to that thinking, none of us could ever have any hobbies, take any vacations, buy anything we like, or do anything out of sheer self-fulfilling enjoyment. I honestly don't think that's what God intended. I think some Christians today take things way too far when they preach that humans were made simply to only always do things strictly for God's Kingdom. God enjoys simply blessing His children and sometimes those blessings come in packages that aren't for the good of anyone other than the one person being blessed by it.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 6/10/2004 7:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Tigress: So, every single little thing we do always has to be done for the Kingdom of God? According to that thinking, none of us could ever have any hobbies, take any vacations, buy anything we like, or do anything out of sheer self-fulfilling enjoyment. I honestly don't think that's what God intended. I think some Christians today take things way too far when they preach that humans were made simply to only always do things strictly for God's Kingdom. God enjoys simply blessing His children and sometimes those blessings come in packages that aren't for the good of anyone other than the one person being blessed by it.
Response by Bemabound:
quote:
1 Cor 10:31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.
1 Tim 6:17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.
God gives us leisure times, and fun things to do. He gives us “all things to enjoy.” I take vacations for His glory. I take times for personally refreshment and relaxation for His glory. I eat for His glory. It’s just that when these enjoyable things become what life is all about for me, or when it comes to redefining the purpose of our lives or bodies or relationships outside of that which God has clearly revealed - that which glorifies Him - we may be treading on unbless’d territory.
quote:
Originally posted by BemaBound
Arguments from natural design:
PHYSICAL DESIGN: I have feet. If I choose to never walk, is this a sin?
quote:
SwanLake:
I am a male and I have two nipples on my chest.
Awaiting further instructions....
This is a good one – and there are some things that are just mysteries. Yet, I'll take a shot at this: Since woman was taken from the man, perhaps all the elements of the woman needed to be first in the man; for we observe each member of the man’s body having a corresponding part on the female’s body. One more shot at it: perhaps if man didn’t have them, that would cause him to be even more intrigued with the woman’s – and we all know there is much too much attention on these body parts today.
All I know is – one day, I will lay my head on Jesus’ breast and ask Him, “Lord, what was with those nipples on men?” And He will give me a good answer. The purpose will one day be revealed and we’ll all go, “Ohhhhh. That the reason why.”
So – if you’re that male waiting for further instructions, here they are: Just leave them alone. One day, you’ll find out what they’re there for. But in the meantime, do be instructed to not do anything stupid – like pierce them.
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/10/2004 8:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BemaBound
So – if you’re that male waiting for further instructions, here they are: Just leave them alone. One day, you’ll find out what they’re there for. But in the meantime, do be instructed to not do anything stupid – like pierce them.
Darn, I guess that would mean tassels are out of the question too.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 6/10/2004 8:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BemaBound
quote:
Tigress: So, every single little thing we do always has to be done for the Kingdom of God? According to that thinking, none of us could ever have any hobbies, take any vacations, buy anything we like, or do anything out of sheer self-fulfilling enjoyment. I honestly don't think that's what God intended. I think some Christians today take things way too far when they preach that humans were made simply to only always do things strictly for God's Kingdom. God enjoys simply blessing His children and sometimes those blessings come in packages that aren't for the good of anyone other than the one person being blessed by it.
Response by Bemabound:
quote:
1 Cor 10:31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.
1 Tim 6:17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.
God gives us leisure times, and fun things to do. He gives us “all things to enjoy.” I take vacations for His glory. I take times for personally refreshment and relaxation for His glory. I eat for His glory. It’s just that when these enjoyable things become what life is all about for me, or when it comes to redefining the purpose of our lives or bodies or relationships outside of that which God has clearly revealed - that which glorifies Him - we may be treading on unbless’d territory.
I agree. But, I don't think that being married and choosing to not have children is redefining His purposes. Some people just aren't cut out to be parents, while they can still be great spouses and be more blessed and useful being married than being single. The beauty of God and His creation is that there is so much diversity of life and functioning in it. I see God glorified in single people, in married couples with children as well as in married couples who choose not to have children. I think God is pleased with all of them. I think He fully blesses all of them, and can use each type of situation mightily for His glory and purposes.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 6/11/2004 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/18/2004 7:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Tigress said: quote:
I just don't think personal desires should always be considered so horribly sinful.
So long as one's ultimate intention is to love God supremely and one's neighbor as oneself, one's personal desires will in fact bring glory to God, and will line up with God's purposes in giving them those desires in the first place. (I.e., The desire (and the Designer's means--sex) to procreate/be fruitful and multiply will be fulfilled in a godly way.
quote:
How is having children in marriage a ministry to anyone other than the children?
It's not just about having children, it's about raising up godly children who will glorify God with their lives and have a beneficial impact upon society in general due to their godly character. Why would we want Islam to continue to be the fastest growing religion in the world due in large part to their huge families vs. our comparatively small families?
If the children are raised in a loving, godly, Christian environment, I think that is indeed quite a vital ministry to the rest of the world those children will eventually impact. Who can calculate the great importance that even ONE child (like for example, a Mother Theresa or a Hitler) could possibly have on the future?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/19/2004 10:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Tigress said: quote:
I just don't think personal desires should always be considered so horribly sinful.
So long as one's ultimate intention is to love God supremely and one's neighbor as oneself, one's personal desires will in fact bring glory to God, and will line up with God's purposes in giving them those desires in the first place. (I.e., The desire (and the Designer's means--sex) to procreate/be fruitful and multiply will be fulfilled in a godly way.
quote:
How is having children in marriage a ministry to anyone other than the children?
It's not just about having children, it's about raising up godly children who will glorify God with their lives and have a beneficial impact upon society in general due to their godly character. Why would we want Islam to continue to be the fastest growing religion in the world due in large part to their huge families vs. our comparatively small families?
If the children are raised in a loving, godly, Christian environment, I think that is indeed quite a vital ministry to the rest of the world those children will eventually impact. Who can calculate the great importance that even ONE child (like for example, a Mother Theresa or a Hitler) could possibly have on the future?
When I look at my kids, I realize that they are the best thing I've done in my life. (I had help). Our son is struggling to find his place with God, but is going to a discipleship training school in Holland. Our daughter is passionate about God, a gem of a young woman who is using her gifts to honour and glorify God. She brings me great joy and inspires me in my walk with God.
I agree, our children will impact the world for Christ. That is both my hope and joy. It makes the problems I face seem a little less overwhelming.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/24/2004 10:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
I'm pro-life, but not for the reasons that I think most the people on this thread are. But that's not what I want to talk about. What is the biblical support for condemning abortion? I know God knew Jeremiah before he was born, but he also knows the sparrows and every hair on your head. Is there anything in the Bible that just comes out and says, "Conceived but unborn humans are persons"? That is the crux of the issue, isn't it. You can't kill a person. You can kill a sparrow or even pull out your hair (these things are even commanded from time to time), but you can't kill a person. The main thing that makes humans persons was the breath of God or the image of God, or so I thought. So does the Bible say the unborn babies have the image of God or are we taking that one for granted?
Sahid,
Conception and reproduction was created by God. It is a miracle. Psalm 139 tells us that He knitted us together in our mother's womb and that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. That begins the moment we are conceived and the miracle continues throughout our life. We should abhor tearing an unborn baby apart limb from limb, or burning it alive with saline solution. Babies already have a soul when they are born. They have the capacity to have a relationship with God.
You're right. The recognition of the unborn as human begins when? That is the crux of the issue alright. It's heartbreaking. Not to mention the wounded lives of those who go through with this. This was not God's original design. It is a perversion of what He intended as beautiful...just as premarital sex is a perversion of what He intended sex to be. There is such a thing as therapeutic abortion, when a choice must be made between the life of the mother and the life of the child. It's rare, but it happens.
I guess a question that arises from this is, "What is the image of God?" Good thought.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 6/24/2004 11:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Psalm 139 tells us that He knitted us together in our mother's womb and that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. That begins the moment we are conceived and the miracle continues throughout our life. We should abhor tearing an unborn baby apart limb from limb, or burning it alive with saline solution.
We are fearfully and wonderfully made. I think that anyone who can create a sparrow (or the hair on my head for that matter) has done a wonderful job. I'm not sure how to understand "fearfully", but I wouldn't be surprised if it could be applied to sparrows too. Unless "fearfully" means something wildly different from what I'm guessing it means, I don't think that passage deals with the issue.quote:
Babies already have a soul when they are born. They have the capacity to have a relationship with God.
Do they? I'd like to know where that is found in the Bible. I'm not saying you're wrong, but how do you know? Is having a soul what gives something the capacity to have a relationship with God? Doesn't the non-human creation have a relationship with God? Which has a better capacity to understand, know, or have a relationship with God? A chimpanzee or a zygote?
As arrogant as I sound, these are honest questions. (Ok, maybe not the chimpanzee one.) I would be thrilled if I found any Biblical evidence that held water. As it is, I'm opposed to abortion, because it is very likely that abortion is murder. We should not gamble with human life. Biblical evidence, one way or the other, would greatly help in settling the matter.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/25/2004 7:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
Who can calculate the great importance that even ONE child (like for example, a Mother Theresa or a Hitler) could possibly have on the future?
Hmmm...interesting...she didn't have any children either.
Hmmm...Mother Tigress... it kinda has a ring to it. 
But to be called “mother”, you might have to either join the Catholic Church or get married and have children. Well there is a third option, but if you're like me, you don't what to go there. I think we can save that one for Hitler. | | Back to Top | | |
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 6/25/2004 7:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahid,
I appreciate your sincere questions. Perhaps this will give some clarity:
The difference between a chimpanzee and a human being is that the chimpanzee is not created in God's image. Chimps don't stand before God and give account to Him for eating too many banannas or for doing harm to a fellow chimp - or for even doing harm to a human being.
In the Scriptures, there is never any judgment on an animal if that animal kills a human being. They're not morally responsible beings as we are. Animals are only accountable to us. We are the only beings that will stand before Jesus Christ and give account of every word, every deed and even the intents of our hearts (1 Cor. 4:10-17; Hebrews 4:12,13; 2 Cor. 5:9-11; Matthew 12:36,37).
There is no word in Scripture of animals giving an account to God. Even to picture this only means that we're reading too many Gary Larson comics and should be reading our Bibles more. To put animals on the same level as human beings is only done out of ignorance of the Scriptures.
One of the clear understandings about being in God's image (like it or not) is that we are moral agents and will answer to God for our deeds. Animals will not. We have eternal souls. Animals do not. We have a high and holy calling - called to be "co-rulers with Jesus Christ in His kingdom to come - for all eternity." Animals do not.
So, it's because of the value and worth that God Himself puts on human beings that we ought to fear Him, yea - FEAR HIM and not think that we can kill one of His valuable image bearers and not answer to Him for that act - no matter what stage of development that Image Bearer is in.
Yes, part of being in the image of God means that we have the ability to be in an intimate relationship with God. Yet, when it comes to letting that unborn baby live or murdering that baby, it doesn't matter how well or how little that baby can be in relationship with God. What matters is the worth and value that God puts on that human being - at any stage of that image bearer's development.
you wrote:
quote:
As it is, I'm opposed to abortion, because it is very likely that abortion is murder. We should not gamble with human life.
That statement shows that you do respect God and those He has created in His image. You are one of the sane thinkers. It's just sad that people never stop and consider who they're messing with (not just the unborn baby, but with the unborn baby's Creator), and only think about themselves.
P.S. Tigress: Mother Teresa was deliberately used as an example because she is one of those singles who are single for the purpose of devoting herself to the work of the Lord - which, as I understand it in Scripture, is the only way to recieve the gift of singleness from God. We can make ourselves single for our own purposes - but that's not a gift received from God. It's a self-centered life takenby one's self and for one's self.
P.P.S.
quote:
Tigress: "Life without chocolate is too terrible to contemplate."
- Saying on the inside of a Dove Dark Promises chocolate candy wrapper.
Denying one's self doesn't necessarily mean that one cannot receive the gift of chocolate from the Lord - which great thanks! Which means that I do agree with the statement that life without chocolate is a terrible thought.
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/25/2004 9:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
quote:
Psalm 139 tells us that He knitted us together in our mother's womb and that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. That begins the moment we are conceived and the miracle continues throughout our life. We should abhor tearing an unborn baby apart limb from limb, or burning it alive with saline solution.
We are fearfully and wonderfully made. I think that anyone who can create a sparrow (or the hair on my head for that matter) has done a wonderful job. I'm not sure how to understand "fearfully", but I wouldn't be surprised if it could be applied to sparrows too. Unless "fearfully" means something wildly different from what I'm guessing it means, I don't think that passage deals with the issue.quote:
Babies already have a soul when they are born. They have the capacity to have a relationship with God.
Do they? I'd like to know where that is found in the Bible. I'm not saying you're wrong, but how do you know? Is having a soul what gives something the capacity to have a relationship with God? Doesn't the non-human creation have a relationship with God? Which has a better capacity to understand, know, or have a relationship with God? A chimpanzee or a zygote?
As arrogant as I sound, these are honest questions. (Ok, maybe not the chimpanzee one.) I would be thrilled if I found any Biblical evidence that held water. As it is, I'm opposed to abortion, because it is very likely that abortion is murder. We should not gamble with human life. Biblical evidence, one way or the other, would greatly help in settling the matter.
(Me) Hi Sahid,
I guess fearfully is the old King James word, and not one we would use. Here's a different "take" on that. "Body and soul, I am marvelously made!" (The Message Bible) Psalm 139 has long been one of my favorite Psalms. And what I was saying, was that He created us with the capacity to be able to have a relationship with Him. I realize that He created everything, and in that sense He has a "relationship" with creation, but we are able to choose Him as well, and worship Him with our heart, and soul and mind.
Speaking of heart, I am disheartened tonight, maybe just tired - so I think I'll leave it at this. Just wanted to share some thoughts on a beautiful psalm as it related to the unborn, to us now, and to our relationship with Him.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/26/2004 3:12 AM (GMT -6) | | [Genesis 1:26-28 (KJV)
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 6/26/2004 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | I think if we focus on abortion in the sense of protesting and creating a more moralistic society...then I think we've missed the boat on what the mission of the church on the earth truly is. Am I for abortion? MOst certainly not. You don't put out a chemical fire however by using say, water in fact you make it spread even more. What is the mission were called to accomplish in the earth? Isn't it to get persons to become born again, and to receive the new divine nature of God. Doing that what happens to abortion? It wouldn't exist. If the church did spend all of its time and got all these aobrtion laws in place what would we have really accomplished? Would people in the culture now make heaven their home because the morals of the culture are somewhat better? Of course not. People would die and still go to hell just as fast as if abortion was widespread and accepted. Im sure many would not maybe agree with me but in putting the focus on the nature of man getting man regenerated, born again, with the new love nature of God within then you've really accomplished something. You would have really ended abortion and secondly made them ready for heaven.  | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/26/2004 12:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
I think if we focus on abortion in the sense of protesting and creating a more moralistic society...then I think we've missed the boat on what the mission of the church on the earth truly is. Am I for abortion? MOst certainly not. You don't put out a chemical fire however by using say, water in fact you make it spread even more. What is the mission were called to accomplish in the earth? Isn't it to get persons to become born again, and to receive the new divine nature of God. Doing that what happens to abortion? It wouldn't exist. If the church did spend all of its time and got all these aobrtion laws in place what would we have really accomplished? Would people in the culture now make heaven their home because the morals of the culture are somewhat better? Of course not. People would die and still go to hell just as fast as if abortion was widespread and accepted. Im sure many would not maybe agree with me but in putting the focus on the nature of man getting man regenerated, born again, with the new love nature of God within then you've really accomplished something. You would have really ended abortion and secondly made them ready for heaven.
Bobber,
Nice to have another Canadian on board!
Welcome to the board, and as I was told, so amicably - the new "guy" brings the donuts!
I appreciate what you're saying here. I've shared a little bit of my life personally with regard to the subject of abortion. Before I was a Christian, I had an abortion, and was unaware at the time of the fact that this was a child, not "tissue" as I was told. It was the crisis in my life, that sent me searching for "more" in life, and I found the Lord.
I am definitely against abortion - but I probably do have a different "take" on it than others, perhaps a more compassionate take, as I see the unborn as victims, but often the mothers and fathers and families... as victims as well. It is the silent holocaust.
Just this morning I was speaking with our daughter on the phone. She is going to a Bible school in N.C. She was telling me about their ministry to women who were going into abortion clinics there. They have two doctors who volunteer to see women through their pregnancy and pay for expenses, as our daughter says - many are immigrants who get pregnant, and have no money to go through with the pregnancy. They are offering love and tangible support - not judgement. It is what my old denom. would refer to as a "harvest vehicle" for Christ.
You are right. Our mission is to see the world transformed, not socially first, but spiritually. The social and moral transformation follows spiritual transformation.
I appreciate your heart on this.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 6/26/2004 1:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Bobber,
I appreciate your comments. I, like you, don't want to be overwhelmed or consumed by an issue. And I don't believe that I am.
We're talking here about our God-given duty as citizens to use our vote and our voice to speak up for truth. I'm not saying, "Don't share the Gospel, don't make disciples. Just use your influence as a citizen - to influence for good with your vote and your voice." I am saying, "Share the Gospel, make disciples. and use your influence as a citizen - to influence for good with your vote and your voice."
You said:
quote:
Would people in the culture now make heaven their home because the morals of the culture are somewhat better? Of course not. People would die and still go to hell just as fast as if abortion was widespread and accepted. Im sure many would not maybe agree with me but in putting the focus on the nature of man getting man regenerated, born again, with the new love nature of God within then you've really accomplished something. You would have really ended abortion and secondly made them ready for heaven.
It sounds like what you're saying is, "We just need to preach the Gospel, lead them to Christ. Then, people would be saved and think straight about issues like abortion." Are you saying that this alone would eliminate legalized abortion... and that voting and raising our voices in outrage is not necessary?
Do you vote? If you are a Christian, do you vote for candidates who believe it's wrong to kill innocent children in the womb? If you do, then you're doing your part and I commend you. If you vote for candidates who believe it's not wrong to kill innocent children in the womb, then I am just perplexed by that. If you don't vote at all, I am equally perplexed.
What arena do you think God doesn't want His influence in? I'm under the persuasion that God wants His witness of truth in every arena; especially those arenas that He gives us the privilege and responsibility to have a say - a vote - a voice.
I don't understand why Christians think it necessary to correct and/or straighten out those of us who are heartbroken with God about little innocent children being legally murdered every day (about 4,000 a day in this country). Christians are so concerned for us - that we are "missing the main point of our calling - to preach the Gospel and to minister to those who are contemplating abortion or who have had an abortion." Well, those Christians may be surprised when they get to heaven. When we stand before Jesus, perhaps it will be those who cried out for the litte ones who actually did more to advance the Kingdom of God through preaching the Gospel and making disciples and ministering to those who are contemplating abortion or who have had an abortion. I want to hear the Lord say, "Well done - you've done all that and you've kept your heart soft toward My little ones who were being taken by the enemy and allowed to be taken by passive Christians, rather than let your heart be hardened and calloused toward this holocaust."
As I've stated earlier; it's my own heart that can easily become calloused toward to people being legally murdered in my country. It's just hypocritical to say, "Just preach the Gospel" when you yourself do more than that. Do you help people in need? Do you visit people who are sick? As St. Francis of Assisi said:
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"Preach always, but only use words when necessary"
Be honest: how would you feel if your government started legalizing the killing of mentally retarted people; if they gave permission for parents to kill those children if they didn't want them? Would you try to correct those who raise their voice in outrage? Would you tell them, "Hey - just preach the Gospel - and then that will take care of the problem?" How heartless that would be? Now - here's the real question: What's the difference with that scenario, and that which is happening with abortion today? Both the mentally retarted and the unborn babies are greatly valued by the Lord. Both are made in His Image. To say there is a difference is to deny the image of God in these unborn babies. To say that there is no difference, then why are you not crying out like you would if it was legal to kill the mentally retarted?
So, regarding the holocaust of abortion, I think all we need to do is not be afraid to open our eyes to see what's really happening, and try not to be afraid to feel the tragedy. After that, we need to be open to whatever God shows us. To simply ask, "Father, what would you have me to do to partner with You?" And Christians can at least not be guilty of trying to "straighten out" some of us Christians who actually are heartbroken about this holocaust. Honestly, I don't want to be "straightened out" to stop feeling what I believe our Lord feels deeply.
Respectfully,
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/26/2004 6:13 PM (GMT -6) | | We are fearfully and wonderfully made. Yes. (And, as is pointed out is, the sparrow.) But, we are also created a little lower than the angels. (That cannot be said of birds.)
Some of the Greek Fathers of the Church said that man is a microcosm of all of creation. Creation includes both the 'visible' and the 'invisible'--the later including the angels, etc. We are microcosms because as both 'sensible' (physical) and 'intelligable' (reasoning) we stand at a unique point where we can worship, and taking life, situation and task give our lifes and praised 'back to' God in worship.
A zygote does not think. But it still occupies that unique role, by virtue of being part of the human community, that its very life, moment by moment, is part of the "giving of our lives and praised back to God in worship."
NO single human is alone -- that is not possible because of what the nature of humanity is. At its very least, humanity is "male and female" (requiring at least two people to 'constitute' humanity). All humans are created to be in community. Not be individuals. The individual human wains towards death. The neglected human dies.
Even the newly conceived human, by virtue of being human, and by virtue of being part of human community has the potential of living up to its potential for that moment as a human. It can do God's will for his/her life at that moment. It can be obediant to the creational will of God for it at that moment. Its very life is worship! (as should be ours)
And even God was once a zygote! And as a zygote, Jesus was fully God and fully man. Even in symetrical form, un-differentiated, the God-man assumed humanity as his own "hypostasis."
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 6/26/2004 10:46 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
One of the clear understandings about being in God's image (like it or not) is that we are moral agents and will answer to God for our deeds. Animals will not. We have eternal souls. Animals do not. We have a high and holy calling - called to be "co-rulers with Jesus Christ in His kingdom to come - for all eternity." Animals do not.
The thing is you could switch the word 'animal' with 'zygote' and this statement would have just as much biblical support.
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Yes, part of being in the image of God means that we have the ability to be in an intimate relationship with God. Yet, when it comes to letting that unborn baby live or murdering that baby, it doesn't matter how well or how little that baby can be in relationship with God. What matters is the worth and value that God puts on that human being - at any stage of that image bearer's development.
I agree completely. But that's not the issue. First you must establish that an 'unborn baby' has the image of God, something that I am not convinced the Bible says. As I've said before, I would love it if someone could show me the chapter that I've missed.
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And what I was saying, was that He created us with the capacity to be able to have a relationship with Him. I realize that He created everything, and in that sense He has a "relationship" with creation, but we are able to choose Him as well, and worship Him with our heart, and soul and mind.
But do zygotes worship with their heart, soul, and mind? Can any of those things be located? Do they exist?
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If the church did spend all of its time and got all these aobrtion laws in place what would we have really accomplished?
I'm all for tiny, microscopic government, but if there is going to be government, the first thing it should do is protect the innocent from murder. Like it or not in America most members of the church are part of the government. It is their duty to make good laws.
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We are microcosms because as both 'sensible' (physical) and 'intelligable' (reasoning) we stand at a unique point where we can worship, and taking life, situation and task give our lifes and praised 'back to' God in worship.
Now this makes sense! Just show me in the Bible (or with science or logic) that zygotes are included in 'we'.
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Even the newly conceived human, by virtue of being human, and by virtue of being part of human community has the potential of living up to its potential for that moment as a human. It can do God's will for his/her life at that moment. It can be obediant to the creational will of God for it at that moment. Its very life is worship! (as should be ours)
Replace 'newly conceived human' with sperm cell. By this logic, letting sperm die, is the same as letting a human die. Sperm does have the potential to be human the same as a zygote. Sure a sperm cell needs an egg to do that, but a zygote too needs things: right environment, nutrition, nearly perfect balance of chemicals.
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And even God was once a zygote!
Quote me the verse. "Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus." Lk 1:31 Why "conceive 'and' bear a son"? Apparently these two things are not the same.
I'm not saying life doesn't begin at conception. If I had to bet, that's what I'd choose. I just think we need to be extra careful about saying, "Thus saith the Lord." Are we sure that's what He said?
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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