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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/27/2004 2:44 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid
Why "conceive 'and' bear a son"? Apparently these two things are not the same.
Have a wife? Any kids? Bear is to carry in the womb. Conceive is to join egg and spirm. | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 6/27/2004 3:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Just this morning I was speaking with our daughter on the phone. She is going to a Bible school in N.C. She was telling me about their ministry to women who were going into abortion clinics there. They have two doctors who volunteer to see women through their pregnancy and pay for expenses, as our daughter says - many are immigrants who get pregnant, and have no money to go through with the pregnancy. They are offering love and tangible support - not judgement. It is what my old denom. would refer to as a "harvest vehicle" for Christ. MoonRiver
That's sounds like showing the love of God not just in word but also in deed. That's wonderful. And for those who for whatever reason say did have an abortion they need to know that God loves them as well....not justifying what they did was ok but I think Jesus would say to us one and all that he that is without sin let him cast the first stone. 
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/27/2004 4:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sahid First you must establish that an 'unborn baby' has the image of God, something that I am not convinced the Bible says. As I've said before, I would love it if someone could show me the chapter that I've missed
Luke 1:39-41 (NLT)
A few days later Mary hurried to the hill country of Judea, to the town [40] where Zechariah lived. She entered the house and greeted Elizabeth. [41] At the sound of Mary's greeting, Elizabeth's child leaped within her, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. [42] Elizabeth gave a glad cry and exclaimed to Mary, "You are blessed by God above all other women, and your child is blessed.
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 6/27/2004 9:14 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Extra careful? That's the problem exactly. We're not extra careful. If we don't know for sure whether the zygote is or is not a human being made in God's image, then we should be extra careful to not kill that zygote until one can prove that they zygote is not a human being. So, hear it clear: "Thus saith the Lord, do not kill that being in the womb if you are not sure if that being is a being made in My Image. If you do, then you may be guilty of murder in My sight."
I completely agree. We should be extra careful about abortion laws for exactly the reasons you state. But what I was talking about was we should be extra careful about speaking for God. Your last two 'if' stamements acknowledge the ambiguity that the Bible does not clarify. We should be extra careful to say these are our views, not the Bible's.
quote:
You see, the onus is on us to prove that the unborn child is not a human being. And the only way to do that would be to twist the facts.
This is the way it seems to me also.
quote:
the evil one's orginazitions (such as the ACLU...
As bad as the ACLU can be, I don't think it's completely evil.
quote:
Luke 1:39-41 (NLT)
A few days later Mary hurried to the hill country of Judea, to the town [40] where Zechariah lived. She entered the house and greeted Elizabeth. [41] At the sound of Mary's greeting, Elizabeth's child leaped within her, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. [42] Elizabeth gave a glad cry and exclaimed to Mary, "You are blessed by God above all other women, and your child is blessed.
You had better stop blessing your food (like Jesus did), because blessing is reserved for persons now.
quote:
Thank you so much for your input. That passage makes it clear how God views the living being in the womb. Notice, Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she called that "zygote" in Mary's womb a "child." And not only a child but a "blessed" child. I don't know if I'll be able to bear it if I hear a comment like, "Well, maybe the Holy Spirit was not seeing things clearly." Oh God, help us!
P.S. Notice too, that there is a "child" in Elizabeth's womb.
Do you know what a zygote is? Are you sure? Seriously. If you don't know what is being talked about, ask someone or look it up. Don't pretend you know. Does anyone really think that this passage was talking about a zygote? Maybe I'm wrong. I guess if you use zygote in the most absurdly broad sense... And once again, blessing doesn't imply personhood, at least not in the Bible. Food and sacrifices among many other things are rightly blessed.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 6/27/2004 5:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Sahid,
You said:
quote:
Do you know what a zygote is? Are you sure? Seriously. If you don't know what is being talked about, ask someone or look it up. Don't pretend you know. Does anyone really think that this passage was talking about a zygote? Maybe I'm wrong. I guess if you use zygote in the most absurdly broad sense... And once again, blessing doesn't imply personhood, at least not in the Bible. Food and sacrifices among many other things are rightly blessed.
zy•gote: noun: 1) a cell formed by the union of two gametes; broadly : the developing individual produced from such a cell 2) the cell resulting from the union of an ovum and a spermatozoon (including the organism that develops from that cell) [syn: fertilized cell]
This is a cut and paste from dictionary.com.
You use the word zygote instead of human being. I thought you were using the term to refer to the point of conception. I prefer “child” or “baby.” I was incorrect to think you were using it for the child in Elizabeth's womb.
But you totally missed the sparknheart’s point. His emphasis wasn’t on “blessing” – but on the fact that Elizabeth called that which was in Mary’s womb a “CHILD.” And I added that she said it “being filled with the Spirit.” Your emphasis on “blessing” says to me that you’re more into arguing than taking a good point and working with it. When you miss his point to that degree, and then, rather than ask, “What is your point?” you fire back with a comment that reveals you’re more into arguing than trying to come to some agreement with brothers and sisters about a very serious issue – a matter of life and death.
You said:
quote:
First you must establish that an 'unborn baby' has the image of God, something that I am not convinced the Bible says. As I've said before, I would love it if someone could show me the chapter that I've missed.
Are you saying that we ought to continue the legalized abortions until it’s official – that the “unborn baby” has the image of God?
How about this:
“We stop killing the unborn beings until someone can prove that the being is not a human being.”
That’s what I mean by the onus being on those in power who are giving the O.K. to kill the beings in the womb.
By taking this approach, we are spared as individuals and as countries from God’s judgment if indeed abortion is the sin of murder. Remember – if I were to kill a person (one day old to 120 years old), and I didn’t think it was a person I was killing, I would still be guilty in God’s eyes of murder. Even if we’re not sure, we must give the benefit of the doubt to the being that might be a child – and I’m sure that is God’s will.
You said:
quote:
But do zygotes worship with their heart, soul, and mind? Can any of those things be located? Do they exist?
Do one year old babies worship with their heart soul and mind? Does that make them any less of a human being than you? Or than a baby in the womb? Can any of those things be located in you?
You said:
quote:
Replace 'newly conceived human' with sperm cell. By this logic, letting sperm die, is the same as letting a human die. Sperm does have the potential to be human the same as a zygote. Sure a sperm cell needs an egg to do that,
A sperm apart from the egg does not a conception make. I’m talking about a human being from the point of conception. Sperm does have the potential to be human – but the zygote is where conception starts; where the two literally become one human being.
And the clincher:
quote:
sahid: but a zygote too needs things: right environment, nutrition, nearly perfect balance of chemicals.
Your point? A one year old baby needs a right environment, nutrition and nearly perfect balance of chemical. I’m struggling to try to see your point, but it seems like what you’re saying is that if an unborn baby is totally dependent on the mother to live, then it is not a human being. That would mean that the personhood of a one month old baby would be in question – seeing that the baby is totally dependent on the mother for right enviornmnet, nutrition and nearly perfect balance of chemicals. Or are you saying that if a baby has crucial needs that it’s not fully human. That would mean any pre-born baby that needs intensive care, incubator, lung machine – is not quite human yet.
The bottom line: we, our countries in which we are citizen, are murdering little innocent children, and it doesn't move us. We are not sure if the being in the womb is human - but it doesn't phase us that we are legally stopping the life of that being - even though we don't know whether or not that being is a human being made in God's image. And it doesn't move us. The real problem is not with our governments, or with the unbelievers who do not see. It's with Christians who are able to see and close their eyes. That's the real problem.
Oh, that God may preserve His name and send a severe discipline to our nations - but first to His Church - so that His name wouldn't be blasphemed among the heathen. Oh, that God may, in His mercy, send a discipline that would wake us up quickly to this atrocity of abortion that we are allowing - so that we wouldn't be altogether destroyed. Oh God, in Jesus name, protect us from all these terrorists - but only to the degree that we, Your people, protect the unborn from the terrorism that is happening in the womb - the terrorism that is due to Christian's passivity and blindness.
Sometimes, the only thing that will wake us up is some good discipline.
Heb 12:6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives."
The time for debate is over. I'm asking God, in His mercy, to discipline us before we are all destroyed. You may not take this seriously, but God does hear my prayers. He loves us too much to let us have our own way.
Prov 1:20-33
Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares;
at the head of the noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:
"How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?
If you had responded to my rebuke, I would have poured out my heart to you and made my thoughts known to you.
But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand,
since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke,
I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you--
when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
"Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me.
Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD,
since they would not accept my advice and spurned my rebuke,
they will eat the fruit of their ways and be filled with the fruit of their schemes.
For the waywardness of the simple will kill them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them;
but whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at ease, without fear of harm."
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/27/2004 6:46 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
I think if we focus on abortion in the sense of protesting and creating a more moralistic society...then I think we've missed the boat on what the mission of the church on the earth truly is. Am I for abortion? MOst certainly not. You don't put out a chemical fire however by using say, water in fact you make it spread even more. What is the mission were called to accomplish in the earth? Isn't it to get persons to become born again, and to receive the new divine nature of God. Doing that what happens to abortion? It wouldn't exist. If the church did spend all of its time and got all these aobrtion laws in place what would we have really accomplished? Would people in the culture now make heaven their home because the morals of the culture are somewhat better? Of course not. People would die and still go to hell just as fast as if abortion was widespread and accepted. Im sure many would not maybe agree with me but in putting the focus on the nature of man getting man regenerated, born again, with the new love nature of God within then you've really accomplished something. You would have really ended abortion and secondly made them ready for heaven.
Hello Bobber,
I think I understand what your saying and your right. We can put a murderer in jail to stop him from murdering, but that does not change him from being a murderer. Only the love of God can truly transform his heart. But we can’t just unlock all the murderers from jail and just start preaching to them, can we?
Most of America calls themselves Christians. The laws of this land are a reflection of the majority of these so-called believers. It’s a denial of our moral responsibility to think that the current abortion law is a result of the secular population. We as believers need to become true to our faith - to live it with every breath we take, not just the occasional sixty minutes of church attendance. We need to listen to our God given conscience that speaks to our hearts. We need to abort our selfishness and standup for the advancement of God’s Kingdom and stop blaming abortion on the kingdom of this world. We are still in this world even if we are not from it. Our voice can and does make a difference, there is no gray area - our silence is a choice.
People respect the laws of this land even if they do break them. When a young girl is faced with the dilemma of abortion, the fact that it is an accepted legal choice in our society has to weigh heavy on her. She has to feel that if it’s ok with most Christians in America that created the laws, well then it must be an ok choice. For it can very well be her own parents, aunts and uncles, teachers, friends and neighbors that have made the choice of abortion acceptable. It is ridicules to think we only need to change the pregnant woman’s/girl’s heart in the matter, we need to change are own hypocritical hearts first. If we were not governed by a democracy then yes it would be understandable, but as it stands, we are the government as much as we are the body of Christ.
Of course laws make a difference in our choices. If a respected authority figure such as a parent or doctor told us to go robe a bank, then a red flag would go off in our head that it was against the law. You might just say, “hey wait a minute, this don’t sound like such a good idea or there wouldn’t be a law against it”. You might not know much about banking and the ramifications of robbing it, but if it’s against the law then the technicalities of why don’t really matter that much. You make a choice not to robe the bank regardless of your understanding of banking because you trust the law. The point is most young woman don’t understand the big picture let alone the technicalities of abortion, not until they have made a choice, not until it’s too late. Not until they have sent their baby off, never to be seen again... unless of course they someday meet in heaven.
Blessings,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 6/27/2004 8:23 PM (GMT -6) | | What would happen if the church didn't bite the bait on the political agenda(s) and endless ambiguous issues and anger creating rhetoric regarding abortion and simply asked, How can we live in such a way as to express Christ's love for pregnant women and their unborn by making having the child feasible and even celebratory? How can we corporately, and individually, SACRIFICE for her? No other questions. Just this. Wouldn't that be something?
I fear the focus on how to vote and protest to improve "the country" appeases some (believing they've "done the right thing" and thus can rest) and dissipates energy that could be focused for the glory of God rather than glorifying "a more moral soceity." It also divides the church, for the issues that follow from the way the world poses the issue are unresolvable (viz. resolvable = can reach a clear concensus) by good, moral, rational people.
When does personhood begin? How do you weight the unborn's rights against the mothers rights? How do you weigh a politicians or parties stance on the abortion issue against their stances on other very pressing issues -- how to help the poor, affordable housing, race issues, war issues, national debt issues, curbing creed (all these are killers too)? Its (obviously!) impossible for all well intentioned, moral, rational people to agree. (Or, we have to simply say that those who disagree with us don't mean well, are immoral and/or are irrational).
But why should the church accept to these terms of the debate... all to decide how it should vote and protest (like THAT was our unique authority and obligation in the world... to improve society). The church can do a great deal -- all it is called to do -- without resolving these issues -- or more often -- letting these unresolvable issues divide us. The church is not a prop for Ceasar. Its the body of Christ.
Do what Jesus did.
SERVE to the point of Calvary.
I strongly suspect that the reason the church of America as a whole is so easily drawn into the entangled issues of the world is that we don't know what else to do... we've so lost our way, we're looking for SOMETHING to stand for, something to convince ourselves that we are different. So we become one of the versions of the altneratives offered by the world.
So long as we have abortion and gays to "take a stand on".... well, this proves we are different, right, standing up for God, and the rest.
Trouble is, we aren't different at all on these issues (others hold them). And even if we were, we aren't different on other issues and don't take stands on other issues (e.g. the poor, greed) which exposes our self-serving righteousness -- and we certainly aren't different the way Christ was different.
He attracted tax collectors, sinners, prostitutes and others. We repell them... in the name of our righteousness.
Great book along these lines is Stanley Haurwas' Resident Aliens.
A far less great book on this is my own Repenting of Religion.
Think about it.
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/28/2004 3:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
It is not clear to me why a Christian must choose either/or with respect to this or any other issue. Contrary to the implication Doc seems to be making, many conservative Christians choose to BOTH vote and campaign against abortion AND work to express their love in practical ways toward those tempted to have abortions.
I agree with you John,
It seems that people tend to think our only options are on the two extremes of the spectrum. Or, they opt out (cop-out) all together, which is a choice in itself.
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 6/28/2004 5:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I appreciate your comments. I, like you, don't want to be overwhelmed or consumed by an issue. And I don't believe that I am. We're talking here about our God-given duty as citizens to use our vote and our voice to speak up for truth. I'm not saying, "Don't share the Gospel, don't make disciples. Just use your influence as a citizen - to influence for good with your vote and your voice." I am saying, "Share the Gospel, make disciples. and use your influence as a citizen - to influence for good with your vote and your voice." [Beamabound]
I see no problem with what you’re saying and I do agree with it. WE are citizens and have just as much right to express our voice as those on the other side of the issue. I guess my only concern is that the deception that people can get into that being if we ever did win the abortion issue and if we cleaned up some of the other immoral things in our country that that will now make us a Christian country. No…we may not have done anything to make it a Christian country in the real sense for a Christian is one who’s spirit has been born again, and has received from Jesus the divine nature of God. Having say non Christians become “nicer” or more moralistic is not salvation. WE must not ever, ever forget that.
quote:
It sounds like what you're saying is, "We just need to preach the Gospel, lead them to Christ. Then, people would be saved and think straight about issues like abortion." Are you saying that this alone would eliminate legalized abortion... and that voting and raising our voices in outrage is not necessary?
Well I think ultimately it would eliminate abortion if people received the life, love and nature of God in their spirits and became new creations. As a citizen I agree its your right to raise your voice but one frustration that pro-life people have I’m meaning ones who spend a lot of time at it, which is this, that they keep exclaiming, “I just don’t get it! Why can’t they understand that its murder what they’re doing?!” Well the truth of the matter is they don’t get it. Those outside of Christ are outside of life. They are dead in their trespasses and sins. They have the nature of sin and death controlling their being…therefore they don’t understand the thing that you and I do and that is life itself. If we put our main focus on getting life into them [Jesus is the life] I think we would be astonished at how many of these social plagues would go by the wayside, meaning abortion would end.
quote:
Do you vote? If you are a Christian, do you vote for candidates who believe it's wrong to kill innocent children in the womb? If you do, then you're doing your part and I commend you. If you vote for candidates who believe it's not wrong to kill innocent children in the womb, then I am just perplexed by that.
Well in my country of Canada ive always voted for the party which as best they could made a stand against abortion.
quote:
I want to hear the Lord say, "Well done - you've done all that and you've kept your heart soft toward My little ones who were being taken by the enemy and allowed to be taken by passive Christians, rather than let your heart be hardened and calloused toward this holocaust."
Well I don’t really feel im against a Christian participating in a pro life march, and yes we as citizen can raise our voice and have just as much right to do so as pro choice people. As a Christian however we should be extremely careful in making sure we don’t fall into the error of thinking our primary mission is to reform society, or make it more moralistic. I would suggest there is a big difference between transformation and reformation. I think it would be extremely sad to hear Jesus say to us, “You were sincere but you missed the boat on the primary thing I called you to do.” Keep in mind there is a scripture which states something to the effect that Jesus would not cry aloud nor would his voice be heard in the streets.
I wondered what that meant for Jesus did preach in the streets. After thinking about it I think what he was saying is that Jesus did not really engage in much social activism. Jesus would not have been at every protest rally over this or that. He knew the real root of mans problem was his heart. It was and still is today the main thing that needs to be changed. So yes I see nothing wrong with letting the world know where we stand on this issue but I would say be careful, keep balanced and keep a right perspective about the whole thing.
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 6/28/2004 10:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Sahid
Why "conceive 'and' bear a son"? Apparently these two things are not the same.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have a wife? Any kids? Bear is to carry in the womb. Conceive is to join egg and spirm.
I'm saying, maybe when first conceived, a zygote (the definition that doesn't include every human) may not yet really be a son (a word that might hint at having more personhood).
quote:
zy•gote: noun: 1) a cell formed by the union of two gametes; broadly : the developing individual produced from such a cell 2) the cell resulting from the union of an ovum and a spermatozoon (including the organism that develops from that cell) [syn: fertilized cell]
This is a cut and paste from dictionary.com.
You use the word zygote instead of human being. I thought you were using the term to refer to the point of conception. I prefer “child” or “baby.” I was incorrect to think you were using it for the child in Elizabeth's womb.
Zygotes don't leap in the womb. (John the Baptist) They'd need legs or at least muscles. If you use definition #2 then yeah, they can leap, but in common usage no one calls a fetus a zygote, at least no one I've met until now. I will say one-celled zygote from now on to clarify.
quote:
But you totally missed the sparknheart’s point. His emphasis wasn’t on “blessing” – but on the fact that Elizabeth called that which was in Mary’s womb a “CHILD.” And I added that she said it “being filled with the Spirit.” Your emphasis on “blessing” says to me that you’re more into arguing than taking a good point and working with it. When you miss his point to that degree, and then, rather than ask, “What is your point?” you fire back with a comment that reveals you’re more into arguing than trying to come to some agreement with brothers and sisters about a very serious issue – a matter of life and death.
I'm saying Elizabeth and the Holy Spirit are right. It's a child. But the Holy Spirit didn't say that about a one-celled zygote. It took time to travel back then. Jesus was probably a fetus by then, not a one-celled zygote.
quote:
Are you saying that we ought to continue the legalized abortions until it’s official – that the “unborn baby” has the image of God?
No, I'm not saying that. In fact I have said the opposite. quote:
I'm not saying life doesn't begin at conception. If I had to bet, that's what I'd choose. I just think we need to be extra careful about saying, "Thus saith the Lord." Are we sure that's what He said?
quote:
How about this:
“We stop killing the unborn beings until someone can prove that the being is not a human being.”
That’s what I mean by the onus being on those in power who are giving the O.K. to kill the beings in the womb.
By taking this approach, we are spared as individuals and as countries from God’s judgment if indeed abortion is the sin of murder. Remember – if I were to kill a person (one day old to 120 years old), and I didn’t think it was a person I was killing, I would still be guilty in God’s eyes of murder. Even if we’re not sure, we must give the benefit of the doubt to the being that might be a child – and I’m sure that is God’s will.
I agree and have never said anything to the contrary. quote:
Do one year old babies worship with their heart soul and mind? Does that make them any less of a human being than you? Or than a baby in the womb? Can any of those things be located in you?
At least one year old babies have a mind and heart. You can typically locate a heart. Even in me. Killing people is bad. Im just trying to say that the Bible doesn't say people start at conception.
John Earp: quote:
It is not clear to me why a Christian must choose either/or with respect to this or any other issue. Contrary to the implication Doc seems to be making, many conservative Christians choose to BOTH vote and campaign against abortion AND work to express their love in practical ways toward those tempted to have abortions.
Amen.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/28/2004 5:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BemaBound
The real problem is not with our governments, or with the unbelievers who do not see. It's with Christians who are able to see and close their eyes. That's the real problem.
AMEN | | Back to Top | | |
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BemaBound
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 6/29/2004 4:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
Originally posted by BemaBound
The real problem is not with our governments, or with the unbelievers who do not see. It's with Christians who are able to see and close their eyes. That's the real problem.
quote:
Jo-Anne: AMEN
I can appreciate this. We do have a voice. But most of us are trying to touch one life at a time, as God gives us the opportunity. The only way for a world to be transformed is through experiencing the love of Jesus Christ, and if each of us did just that - demonstrate love, as we have the opportunity, and to share what the Lord has done in our lives - THAT would make a difference. That does make a difference!
Amen. I agree with you - and that's all I'm really saying. This is all about using our God-given influence in every arena, as God gives us opportunity -- rather than not using that influence.
Some people understand that abortion is murder and some people don't want to understand that it's murder, because that would make them responsible to use their God-given influence to actually do something about it.
It's especially sad when we see pastors close their eyes to this holocaust and not use their God-given influence to do something about this. And it's grievous to me when a pastor sees defending little defenseless babies as a "political agenda"; who sees defending their precious lives as an "ambiguous issue." I wonder if that pastor would feel the same way - that it would be a "political agend" and an "ambiguous issue" someone was trying to defend his life?
Here's what one pastor said:
quote:
What would happen if the church didn't bite the bait on the political agenda(s) and endless ambiguous issues and anger creating rhetoric regarding abortion and simply asked, How can we live in such a way as to express Christ's love for pregnant women and their unborn by making having the child feasible and even celebratory? How can we corporately, and individually, SACRIFICE for her? No other questions. Just this. Wouldn't that be something?
Now, doesn't that sound wonderful? So "pastoral." But this pastor just ignored the fact (which he makes "ambiguous" and by doing so would relieve his conscience) that little children are legally being killed. Then, he tops it off with the big straw man...* insinuating that my goal is to "make the country better." Give me a break. That makes me look like a political fanatic trying to bring heaven on earth - which is a totally unfair statement. That's not my goal at all. My real goal which I've clearly stated is to be a true pastor that defends the defenseless, rather than a coldhearted pastor who turns his head when people, who are made in God's image, are being killed. That's all.
Christians are turning their heads today the same way they did during the holocaust when Jews were being killed.
If we didn't change the laws we had in our country that recognized black people as only 3/5 human (up to about 100 years ago) and if blacks were being legally killed today because they were considered 3/5th human, I could see the same thing said by some fearful pastors today: "Let's not rock the boat on this one... we're all not agreed that these black people are fully human. Yes, I know that they're being killed, but let's show Jesus love to their families and not waste our energies on political and ambiguous isses and on trying to "make our country better." There are many good and moral people that aren't quite sure of blacks being fully human."
Remember, up to about 100 years ago in this country the legal issue of blacks being fully human was a political and ambiguous issue. 100 years ago! And what happened? Some people told the false peacemakers of their day (whether the good moral majority back then were good Christian bigoted folk, or good Baptist bigoted Pastors) to quiet their wimpy voices and to take some action to get legislation to recognize blacks as just as much human, just as much an Image Bearer, just as much an American citizen (with all the rights and privileges - especially the protected right to live) as any white person. If we waited for a concensus in the South on this, we probably still wouldn't get one today!
No - good laws don't immediately change people's hearts, but they do PROTECT people from those who think they shouldn't have the right to live.
Oh, and here's my other stated reason for writing what I do (and this is for those who believe that God would NEVER judge our country and NEVER severely discipline His Church)-- I have a desire also to join with other Christians to follow God's leading in doing what we can to prevent this kind of judgment (though I also pray that, if that's what we need, that He would at least wake us up throught judgment). That's because I believe this issue of His little ones being legally killed is something dear to his heart, and those who put it in the category of "political agenda" and "ambiguous issues" are truly missing His heart on this. I would again encourage any pastor to get before God and dare ask Him to share His burden on this one.
* Here's where the pastor uses his "straw man" approach, insinuating that all I'm out to do is to "improve the country":
quote:
I fear the focus on how to vote and protest to improve "the country" appeases some (believing they've "done the right thing" and thus can rest) and dissipates energy that could be focused for the glory of God rather than glorifying "a more moral soceity." It also divides the church, for the issues that follow from the way the world poses the issue are unresolvable (viz. resolvable = can reach a clear concensus) by good, moral, rational people.
Which really means, "Since we can't get a concensus on helping little babies who are being murdered, let's just ignore them and concentrate on loving each other and helping those who we're allowed to help (by the clear concensus of good, moral and rational people) so that we don't cause any division."** Now that's what I call strong leadership.
I really do try to use sarcasm as a last resort, but it's as if this pastor who's taking "pot shots" at me didn't read any of the other posts that I've written as I expressed the deep pain I feel because little innocent children are legally being killed. If he doesn't feel that pain, then it would be appropriate to "grieve with those who grieve" even if he doesn't have the same conviction - rather than call me a political fanatic who just wants to make his country better.
** It seems to me that Jesus got a lot of flack when He proclaimed the truth.. that He didn't wait for a clear concensus by the majority before He spoke and acted. And He said things that caused people to be angry. He accepted that truth sometimes divides. If pastors are sincerely into unity, then let's unite and give "one voice" to cry out for the unborn - and let's not wait for all people to get on board with us. People will follow if strong, loving leaders take their lead. Or, we can cause division by telling our people "well, maybe it's not a real child in the womb." That's the "voice of doubt and cowardice" that's dividing the body and causing disunity among pastors.
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 6/29/2004 9:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Shaid,
Amen. Amen! And AMEN!
There are many things we CAN do. But I believe a lot of the responsibility rests with the Pastors. Pastors are called to give voice and to give clarity to what "God's take" is on the culture. God hates murder - and rather than saying, "God hates murder, and we do too! And we'll use our influence in prayer and with our God-given influence and vote to stop murder...", what I hear many saying is, "Well, let's get a concensus first if this is truly murder."
This is wrong and hypocritical because if Jesus Christ were to be aborted at even the conception stage, that pastor knows that there would be something terribly wrong with that. No - God wouldn't let that happen, but the point is - that fact that he knows it would be wrong, says that he knows that every conceived baby is a human being - just as much as Jesus Christ (though not God like Jesus Christ).
I actually think that there's this secret "dare ya" wish for judgment in Christian's hearts today. Like the child who wants to know that severe aspect of his father and pushes him to get disciplined. If that's what we want, then we will not only feel God's severe hand of discipline (if we don't act soon), but we'll also hear His gracious voice responding to our cry for discipline. We'll hear Him say, "Well, you asked for it!"
The way it's going, we'll probably experience this, and hear His voice this way, but I know that we're not going to like it. Yet, if that's what it takes to wake us up out of our sleep - "Father, do whatever it takes to wake us up.. to be Your Church - in every area of influence You've given us to be the salt and light of this world. For Your Name's sake, in Your Name, Jesus!"
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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sometimesisquint
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 91
| Posted 6/29/2004 1:18 PM (GMT -6) | | BemaBound: "But this pastor just ignored the fact (which he makes "ambiguous" and by doing so would relieve his conscience) that little children are legally being killed."
I disagree and I also think you are much guiltier of the “big straw man” than Dr. Boyd. It's easy to create empathy with a position by inserting yourself speculatively as the opponent to the creator of this site...but I would hope most people would be smart enough to look past such an emotional distraction when continuing to discuss this thorny issue. Actually...it seems they have...
"Then, he tops it off with the big straw man...* insinuating that my goal is to "make the country better." Give me a break. That makes me look like a political fanatic trying to bring heaven on earth - which is a totally unfair statement."
I’ll tell you what seems unfair to me (as a plebian sort of amateur on this site perhaps I'm wrong in stating such), self-righteously--with little merit--positioning yourself as the martyr in another man’s argument and then creating a stir by claiming offense.
"That's not my goal at all. My real goal which I've clearly stated is to be a true pastor that defends the defenseless, rather than a coldhearted pastor who turns his head when people, who are made in God's image, are being killed. That's all."
I don’t doubt that and I don’t think anyone else doubts that your feverish passion is honorable. However, when you continue assuming that anyone taking a deferential approach (albeit with as much feverish passion) is as guilty as the murderous “holocaust” instigators, I begin to tune you out.
"Christians are turning their heads today the same way they did during the holocaust when Jews were being killed."
That’s quite a statement. Between this and the slavery comparisons, you’ve floated us back and forth between nearly two hundred years of historical impertinence. Let’s go for three of a kind, why don’t you make a comparison between abortion and prohibition. 
Honestly, I’m saddened by the issue myself, but my point (poorly served, I’m sure) is that teary-eyed vitriol such as this is not going to read as much more than an emotionally charged soapbox conviction that divides more than it informs or persuades. I respect your position, but I don't know that this is the best way to encourage support.
"That's because I believe this issue of His little ones being legally killed is something dear to his heart…"
Agreed.
"…and those who put it in the category of "political agenda" and "ambiguous issues" are truly missing His heart on this."
Nope. I think those that do so are being literal in an interpretation of how much the Religious Right has contributed to the political polarization of America (not that America needed much help). It is a political issue and therefore embodies a “political agenda”. I don’t think you were denying this fact, but to deny the importance or relevance of such seems misquided as well.
Also, I’d be careful in judging anyone who carries a different opinion on the best way to approach such a divisive issue. I don’t remember Dr. Boyd ever implying that abortion was “okee-dokee”, and I would challenge you to remember that fact as you continue spouting off blind rhetoric aimed at another “pastor”.
"What's partner yoga?"
"It's when you're two with the universe."
-My Friend Keith
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