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Originally posted by John Earp

Originally posted by spenlake
This brings us back to the core issue, finding freedom in the false-event and fictional-truth as some doorway to "truth" and "reality." This is not congruent with the Scriptures. Bunk. You have not brought a SINGLE scripture to support your point, just a name and reputation of a man. I have brought many scriptures to prove the contrary. Yes, this exercise is CONTRARY to what is taught in scripture. It is not and never has been that we will know the false and it will set us free to the truth.

John responds:

When Jesus said, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free," he was specifically referring to experiential knowledge of Himself and his teaching. "If ye abide in My Word, then are ye my disciples indeed." Later, in John 14-17, Christ says: "If you abide in ME, and my words abide in you..." and a little later He refers to "the Spirit of Truth" that would be sent to them as the perfect Helper/Comforter/Advocate, who would "guide [them] into all truth."

Paul exhorts the believers under his care to "be ye transformed by the RENEWING of your MINDS..." and to "put on the NEW MAN, which is created in the image of Him...in righteousness and true holiness." Paul also refers to the fact that believers, under the New Covenant, are to "behold the glory of God in the FACE of Jesus Christ," and in so doing they would be "changed from glory to glory," even by the SPIRIT of the Lord."

(I am just typing these Scripture quotes from memory; I trust you will know where they are found in Scripture. If you have any question about any of my above references, please let me know, and I'll be happy to find the exact chapter and verse for you).

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I am not misunderstanding Dr. Boyd. I understand his position and I quote his words extensively.

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Quoting someone's words does NOT mean one understands them or has even TRIED to understand them.

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Originally posted by saintpaulrez

Oops, I made some typos but I am too tired to go fix them. Hopefully, it'll make sense when you read it. Jo Anne, have you ever read "Beyond the Bounds" or "God's Lesser Glory?" I would really encourage you to. They are very good books and might help you to understand how people who aren't open theist feel about it, and might even help you to see open theism differently. I wish I could share with you some of my experiences at Woodland Hills Church (and also here) but I don't want to here. I don't know your email and don't want to come back here again after tonight, but I really hope you will really pray about open theism and just because all the people here are so sure about it and believe it so strongly, does not mean it is all truth. What helped me to know is reading my Bible and also I believe that love is a fruit of the Spirit and the lack of love says alot to me. But also there wree other things that helped me to discern and decide that open theism can really bring harm to people's lives. It did to mine and to many others when a person, an open theist, made God in the same way Greg Boyd does and not the way the Bible describes him. I know that might be hard to understand. I don't want to explain any more than that. I even started having nightmares when I used to come here. My mind started to be almost tormented and it truly was a very great relief to me when I stopped reading here and posting, and I had peace again. I say that with all truthfulness and sincerity.

If you get a chance, please spend some time reading the link below. It is a whole bunch of various articles on open theism and the concerns of evangelicals who believe open theism is not theological. Most evangelicals don't accept open theism. The only people I've ever known that are actually believers of open theism were some people at Woodland Hills Church and then people here. Maybe you are aware of the concerns of evangelical Christians about open theism, but if you are not, these articles might help you to better understand.
http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/theism.fbw

Well, goodbye, and I'm sorry if I've upsetted people (which I am sure I have because I know how it is when people criticize open theism).

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Originally posted by moon_river_j



(Spen...you said) Paul exhorts the believers under his care to "be ye transformed by the RENEWING of your MINDS..."

(Jo-Anne) Spen, we are transformed by the renewing of our minds. God created our minds. Why can't the Holy Spirit inspire them (our minds) in imaginative prayer? The key is Holy Spirit inspiration. Often when I have heard the most powerful prophecy, it has come from a believer's prayer life when God gave them a vision of something to share with a church or a believer. I have seen people's lives changed because God spoke to them through the life of another obedienct believer. What's your take on prophecy? My understanding of it is that it is to upbuild, encourage and console (1 Cor. 12,13,14). This is one way that I see the Father working through the power of (Holy Spirit inspired) imaginative prayer?


(Spen...you said) I too find comfort in your statement, "Paul exhorts the believers under his care to "be ye transformed by the RENEWING of your MINDS..."
This deserves to be printed in BOLD letters. Dr. Boyd and his followers on this site have yet to show ONE scripture where the Spirit of God creates a fictional ANTI-event that we experience to find freedom and experience truth.

(Jo-Anne) Spen, why is it you think that something a believer experiences in prayer is fiction? Just by virtue of the fact (no pun intended) that we experience it makes it NON-Fiction. And who are we to judge? And why would you oppose something that enhances a believers prayer life/spiritual walk with the Father? I am trying to understand where you are coming from, what it is you feel you need to defend so vigorously? We are on the same team.

God Bless,
Jo-Anne

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Dr. Boyd provides us with constructs an “alternate reality” in his imagination that is disassociated with the objective historical record. He constructs a lie and he claims it “real.” He implicates his imagined “spiritual Jesus” into his lie and claims it to be true and Scriptural, because it works.

I am not exaggerating. Dr. Boyd gives us the factual historical objective truth of an incident in his life. He had a cruel grandmother that didn’t give him a present and called him bad which he recounts on page 117,

“No, Greggie is a bad boy, and bad boys don’t get presents.”

This incident brings pain to his life. Dr. Boyd discovers the techniques of imaginative prayer and applies them on pages 118 through 122, progressing through a series of emotions from grieving to forgiveness. Dr. Boyd claims that Jesus personally leads him through this process. As the process unfolds, we see that what is happening is that Jesus Himself is changing the objective historical record witnessed by Dr. Boyd’s sisters to a different story that never happened. This story evolves into the following account on page 121,

“But this time, instead of seeing the angry wrinkled face of my grandmother, I saw the radiant, joyful face of Jesus. He leaned over the bag and peeked in with a wildly excited smile on his face. Instead of hearing my grandmother say, ‘No, Greggie is a bad boy,’ I heard Jesus exclaim, ‘Oh, of course Greggie gets a present! He is such a good boy!’ He rubbed my head vigorously as he said, ‘It’s a very special gift. That’s why I saved it for last.’ I began hopping and flapping my arms even more excited than before as I looked again into the paper sack. And there I saw a huge red toy airplane.”

Dr. Boyd has imagined, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and Jesus, a new historical record without witnesses that he now believes to be “real” and a spiritual experience of the truth. This is how the imaginative Jesus enabled Dr. Boyd to forgive his grandmother and find healing. It is the process of building a story that opposes objective reality, believing that it is inspired and therefore “real” and experiencing relief from the historical record that is now “unreal” so that forgiveness is possible. He states on page 123,

“It is crucial to note, however, that forgiveness usually comes at the end of the healing process (i.e. imagined story believed as true), not at the beginning.

Scriptures tell us of a different path to forgiveness which doesn’t consist of my creating inspired “subjective reality.” When I realize that I am utterly sinful and undeserving, with a monumental debt towards God I am incapable of paying, destined to damnation - and God comes and dies for me and forgives my mountainous debt and gives me eternal life instead, the antithesis of anything I deserved or merited – the gratitude that whelms up in my heart and mind at this realization enables me to forgive the puny debts that grandmothers owe to me. This is the gospel. This doesn’t require spirits to create freestyle historical records so I can forgive. It simply believes in the work that God, as a tangible man, did for me on the cross. This is where we find the true and real power to forgive, in objective history that was seen by witnesses and written down for us to read and understand.

Spen Lake

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JoAnne, thanks for your comments. I don't feel comfortable sharing much here and already, someone is telling me that I "jumped on here" and that I don't have respect or love for open theists, and that I haven't studied what they believe. And that is a perfect example of why I literally detest this site.

I only posted to thank spenlake but I shared alot more. And then I posted to reply to JoAnne. I do NOT want to be a part of this debate. Did you read what I wrote feelinahole? You say that what I've done "anyone can do that." Thanks. Like I said, I've rarely run into a kind person here. I hope that you and other open theists will one day learn to take the heat. I've spent my whole life being "misunderstood" like all you "poor" open theists who are always griping about how misunderstood you are. None of my family is Christian but I'm not about to retort to them the way you did to me here.

So, NO, feelingahole, I am NOT going to support my statements. I've written enough and I explained why I feel the way I do. Live with it. Why do you feel the need to treat me (or other people who disagree with or criticize open theism) like I'm some ignoramous because I don't like WHC or open theism.

YES, I've read the books. YES, I've had discussions. And I still will say that I don't believe the God of open theism is the God of the Bible. That is MY opinion and that is my constitutional right, to speak my mind. I'm sorry that this site is not tolerant of that. I didn't come here recently to discuss and dialogue. I tried that long ago, both here and in real life with open theists, and it didn't work. They only treated me rudely, saying the same things you are saying, "Have you read the books? Have you read the books? Have you read the books?" It always seems to come down to that.

Joanne, I probably will not email you. I'm sorry. I am pretty much past all that happened. It's the past and I just want to forget that I was ever here at this site and that I experienced what I did. But you have truly been kind. I do recall Selah and remembering that he (she?) seemed very kind to. I don't know the other people you mentioned but I'm sure you are right. :)

But, I am only going to bring grief into my life if I keep posting here. I truly believe that with all my heart. I'm just not up to being here again and even thinking about open theism. Maybe if I was stronger and liked arguing about open theism, but I don't. I haven't hardly even thought about open theism since I last was here and reading feelingahole's post only brings back very bad memories. I'm glad you have learned things here and mean no offense in what I've said. Yes, I am fully aware it is critical and bound to cause others to feel defensive. I am glad you've been able to kindly agree to disagree with me. That says alot about you!

Oh, and I didn't mean to say "you" when I said "why are you offended." I actually was replying to John Earp's post but I didn't type it well. I meant a general "you" actually.

I'm sorry Joanne, I really don't agree with open theism and it's brought only grief to my life, not comfort. In all honesty, I wish I could go back to the time in my life where I'd never heard of open theism, Greg Boyd, or Woodland Hills Church. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. For me, my ignorance of all of the above was bliss.

I know it's hard to understand what I'm saying w/o much detail. Again, if I change my mind, I will email you. Do you go to Woodland Hills Church by any chance?

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Originally posted by saintpaulrez

I'm sorry Joanne, I really don't agree with open theism and it's brought only grief to my life, not comfort. In all honesty, I wish I could go back to the time in my life where I'd never heard of open theism, Greg Boyd, or Woodland Hills Church. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. For me, my ignorance of all of the above was bliss.

I know it's hard to understand what I'm saying w/o much detail. Again, if I change my mind, I will email you. Do you go to Woodland Hills Church by any chance?

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saintpaulrez sounds suspiciously like a poster we once had here, under at least two other names (bob and Christian) who blamed Open Theism and WHC for her husband divorcing her.

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Originally posted by Eeyore

Open Theists, they're so mean.

When I say Open Theism is unbiblical, they want me to defend that statement, but I can't. They so mean.

They think God gave us brains for a reason, they so mean.

Who wants a faith worth defending? They so mean.

I find comfort in a God that determines everything.

Oops, except what these Open Theists do.

But everything ELSE is determined by God.

Open Theists are so mean.

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Originally posted by moon_river_j
Grace and Peace to you...Saintpaulrez/Eeyore

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Originally posted by saintpaulrez
And about being "chipper." Sorry, but I don't see very many chipper, happy, people here

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Originally posted by saintpaulrez
And about being "chipper." Sorry, but I don't see very many chipper, happy, people here

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