 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > Dr. Boyd and his followers (Seeing is Believing) | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/20/2004 4:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
spenlake, Jacob imagined a ladder that wasn't really there, it was a vision. This is no different than Boyd imagining a toy airplane that wasn't really there.
The prophet Joel prophecied that we will see visions and have dreams. Acts 2:17, Joel 2:28
Or are you claiming that Joel too, is a false prophet due to this prophecy NOT coming true?
But please continue, Don Quixote.
Nice linking to the Nazis, really works for me.
Laika,
You miss the point. They are not fictional anti-events because they are spiritual. They are anti-events and fictional because they never really happened. Unless you are claiming that Dr. Boyd REALLY received a red plane and that his grandmother REALLY was there. I believe that the spiritual ladder really was there and that God really was at the top of it and that there really were angels on it because that is what it says. Jacob didn't reinvent history and neither does Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Joel...John the Baptist, Agabus, or John the Apostle. None of God's prophets reinvent history. I have given you examples men that reinvent history and false prophets like Joseph Smith that reinvent history. I have also given you examples of comforted deluded people that believe it.
The challenge still stands.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/20/2004 4:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Originally posted by Laika
spenlake, Jacob imagined a ladder that wasn't really there, it was a vision. This is no different than Boyd imagining a toy airplane that wasn't really there.
The prophet Joel prophecied that we will see visions and have dreams. Acts 2:17, Joel 2:28
Or are you claiming that Joel too, is a false prophet due to this prophecy NOT coming true?
But please continue, Don Quixote.
Nice linking to the Nazis, really works for me.
Laika,
You miss the point. They are not fictional anti-events because they are spiritual. They are anti-events and fictional because they never really happened. Unless you are claiming that Dr. Boyd REALLY received a red plane and that his grandmother REALLY was there. I believe that the spiritual ladder really was there and that God really was at the top of it and that there really were angels on it because that is what it says. Jacob didn't reinvent history and neither does Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Joel...John the Baptist, Agabus, or John the Apostle. None of God's prophets reinvent history. I have given you examples men that reinvent history and false prophets like Joseph Smith that reinvent history. I have also given you examples of comforted deluded people that believe it.
The toy airplane was a spiritual toy airplane just like the ladder was a spiritual ladder.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
|
1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/20/2004 6:09 AM (GMT -6) | | (Spen)"I am not saying that the Holy Spirit cannot or does not bring revelations or visions now. I believe that He does. I am saying the Spirit of Truth doesn't bring revelations that are "false" for us to find freedom, healing, forgiveness, and experience God face to face in. Neither does the scriptures, which gives me the authority to plead with those that find freedom in a spirit inspired anti-event to repent and return to the truth of the gospel"
(Jo-Anne) Spen, forgive me for being somewhat confused. I really am trying hard to follow what you are saying. I just don't see it - so far anyway. Who determines that these revelations are "false" - the ones that bring "freedom, healing, forgiveness, and experience God face to face in"?
Ah, I think I may have something here! Eureka! Does the enemy bring revelations that help us "find freedom, healing, forgiveness, and experience God fact to face in"? I don't think so! 
The Holy Spirit indwells each believer and speaks to each believer in way that he/she needs to hear the Father. Look how creative the Father is. Why shouldn't the Holy Spirit be just as creative. Why should we not experience Him as real and who are we to judge what brings transformation in people's lives as "false?"
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
| | Back to Top | | |
|
JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 4/21/2004 3:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
spenlake:
I am not saying that the Holy Spirit cannot or does not bring revelations or visions now. I believe that He does.
spenlake,
Could you describe for us an example or examples of how this might occur?
Thanks,
JET | | Back to Top | | |
|
joneames
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 4/21/2004 4:54 PM (GMT -6) | | hi
Totally new here. Right now I am doing (trying to) do some debate at a calvinist forum (message board) and would request someone (anyone's) help here. Right now it's a universal love debate.
I am for God's universal love, and it's me on everyone. I used about 10 references to support it, and without surprise, I am getting the "all doesn't mean all" everyone doesn't mean everyone, "who is the "all men" referring to etc.. Well I cannot find an exegesis of
2 peter 3:9, and I Tim 2:4. Can anyone in here help? I am passinate about his, and although I don't expect my debating it will really change anyone, ya never know, I'll give it a try. What would be better than awesome would be if Greg Boyd could offer me his explanation of 1 tim 2 and 2 pet 3. I know you hold to this Greg, and I know you don't believe it without good reason, I'd just love to know what that is, because I am clueless on exegesis. But anyone's help here would be much apperciated. Thanks a bunch.
God bless , Jon | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/23/2004 1:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JET
quote:
spenlake:
I am not saying that the Holy Spirit cannot or does not bring revelations or visions now. I believe that He does.
spenlake,
Could you describe for us an example or examples of how this might occur?
Thanks,
JET
Here you go JET. Perhaps this will help.
The Battle for "Authority"
Prophecy and Subjective Words:
-Their Place in the Church
-Their Place in One's Life
Premise:
Scripture is the only objective revealed Authority until the return of Jesus.
Thesis:
By seeking or claiming additional authority in subjective words beyond what is written in Scripture, many pursue lawlessness and sin.
Definitions:
Authoritative words—the objective authority to define an action as God’s will. Authoritative words demand obedience; any failure to listen and obey them is “sin.”
Objective—certain; explicitly proven by Scripture.
Directive—here meant in the authoritative sense; declares that a choice or action is certainly God’s will.
Predictive—foretelling a future event.
Subjective words—man’s words based upon individual perceptions not objectively proven in Scripture (may be disregarded without risk of sinning or opposing God’s will.)
The Battle for Authority
Does the completion of the Scriptures mean that the Holy Spirit has ceased working with men or speaking to us subjectively? No. It means that the Holy Spirit has ceased giving us additional “authoritative” words. Jesus came to Earth as a man, spoke to us the words of God and gave us gifts when He ascended (Ephesians 4:8). These gifts were apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. We see these gifts at work among us today; they will continue until His return. The Holy Spirit continues to do the work of God in this world through evangelists, pastors, and teachers as they preach and teach the mystery of God, the gospel, to mankind and the church. The authoritative apostles and prophets that Christ gave us are still with us in their teachings and writings in the New Testament. This revealed authority of His kingdom, the Scripture, was left with us to obey until He returns. It is “the Faith which was once and for all handed down to the saints,” as Jude says in verse 3. This objective Word of God was completed with the written words of the last authoritative apostle and prophet, John in the book of Revelation. However, I believe that the gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12) may still be expressed as the Holy Spirit wills today. In addition, if the authoritative Word of God is made alive in us by the Spirit, we will continue to grow in the expression of the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22) in our lives.
The Gift of Prophecy
One of these “gifts of the Spirit” mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 is the gift of prophesy. This gift is also referred to in 1Thessalonians 5:19: “Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.”
The central issue regarding modern “prophecy” is whether we consider it “authoritative” or “subjective.” Any predictive element in prophecy is secondary and will be addressed later. The central issue is this: Do we currently have the mandate or ability to declare modern prophecy authoritative? “Authoritative” defines the will of God that must be obeyed. God never asks us to “judge” His words but commands us to obey them or incur His wrath. Peter calls the apostle Paul’s letters Scripture (2 Peter 3:2, 15-16). Paul himself declares his own words to be authoritative (1 Corinthians 11:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:4-6). The Scriptures are very clear: only the Scriptures are to be considered “authoritative.” This is not a new idea. It was at the heart of the Reformation when Luther declared “Sola Scriptura,” meaning “the authority of Scripture alone.” 2 Timothy 3:16 declares all Scripture to be God’s Word: “ All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”
In contrast, “subjective” consists of individual perceptions that may be disregarded without risk of sinning. This battle for authority between subjective ideas of man and Scripture began the Reformation with Luther denouncing the belief that, in addition to the Scriptures, the laws and decrees of the Roman Catholic Pope could also be authoritative. Modern prophecy, along with all forms of subjective words, is never authoritative because no man’s words on their own are authoritative, only God’s. Thus, the apostles repeatedly command us to “test” and “judge” prophecy and not to obey it. See 1 Corinthians 14:29, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, 1 John 4:1. Those “judging” a prophecy may declare it an authoritative Word from God if, and only if it is explicitly revealed in Scripture -- never on its own merits. Therefore, any prophecy claiming revelations not explicitly revealed in Scripture (a void or omission in Scripture claimed to be filled with subjective words) can never be “judged” authoritative. Christians are always free to disregard all forms of subjective words without risk of sinning or opposing God’s will. In contrast, anyone who is claiming that subjective words to be authoritative sins and speaks delusion because subjective words are simply the perceptions of man, however spiritual they might seem. Jesus exposed the dangers of looking to man’s words as authoritative when he echoed the words of Isaiah in Matthew 15:9, “But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.”
Biblical History of the Battle for Authority
The Battle in the Old Testament
Biblical history records many attempts to usurp the authority of the objective Word and infuse “authoritativeness” into subjective words. Satan asked Eve, “Indeed, has God said . . . ?” Eve responded with what God had said but included additional words (“nor shall you touch it” see Genesis 3:1-3) that God had not said. Thus, Eve went beyond God’s word and defined “touching it” a sin, even though God had not. In the time of Moses himself, men like Korah in Numbers 16 opposed God’s objective authority. Throughout Biblical history, sincere deluded men led Israel astray and emboldened the people in their pursuit of sin. The issue at stake was not for the right to say, “I had a vision or dream”—anyone can have a dream, vision, opinion, or experience. The issue was authority —people claiming their subjective words were authoritative so people must follow and obey them. God’s authoritative Word declared Israel sinful and under wrath. This is in contrast to false subjective words from people proclaiming false peace amid sinful apostasy. This is the pervasive message of, “peace, peace where there is no peace” (Jeremiah 6:14). Consider the epic battles of Elijah (1 Kings 18), the prophet to Bethel (1 Kings 13), the challenge of Micaiah (1 Kings 22), and the battles of Jeremiah/Hananiah/Shemaiah (Jeremiah 28, 29:31). Jeremiah captures God’s view of the battle for authority between subjective words and God’s word in Jeremiah 23:16, 17:
Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you. They are leading you into futility; They speak a vision of their own imagination, not from the mouth of the LORD. They keep saying to those who despise Me . . . They say, ‘Calamity will not come upon you.’”
False prophets proclaim a subjective peace where there is no objective peace and lead people to destruction.
The Jewish infatuation with pagan prophets ended with the Babylonian Captivity. We have no Biblical record of non-Jehovah prophets ever becoming popular after the Jew’s return to Israel. Instead, the battle of the authoritative Word vs. false subjective authority moved within the spiritual government of Judaism and its leaders. By the time of Malachi, the authoritative Scriptures were considered less important than the leaders’ words.
you say, ‘The table of the LORD is to be despised.’ (1:7)
you say, ‘The table of the Lord is defiled, and as for its fruit, its food is to be despised.’ (1:12)
you also say, ‘My, how tiresome it (God’s altar) is!’ (1:13)
you say, “Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them,” (2:17)
you have said, ‘It is vain to serve God; (3:14)
Malachi 2:4-8
“Then you will know that I have sent this commandment to you . . . “But as for you, you have turned aside from the way; you have caused many to stumble by the instruction; you have corrupted the covenant of Levi,”
The Jewish leaders reject what God has said and obey their own subjective words instead. This is a theme throughout Malachi. This battle (leaders’ subjective words vs. God’s objective Scripture) crystallized into an even deeper form of apostasy in the inter-testamental period. They set aside the authoritative writings of the true Jewish fathers, and the leader’s oral law (subjective words) was elevated to the same authority as the written Scripture. The Macabbees, in their fight for Judaism and the temple, claimed the high priesthood and the kingship, offices illegal for them to assume under the Law of Moses. Though they ostensibly loved and fought for the authority of God’s Word, they corrupted it and usurped its authority for themselves. The corrupt system that developed was in place when the Messiah appeared. The high priests, who claimed to love the Scriptures, had corrupted the covenant of Levi in that the leaders were no longer the sons of Aaron/Zadok as the Scriptures required (Ezekiel 44:15, 48:11).
The Battle in the New Testament
When John the Baptist (the Elijah) arrived on the scene, he preached that sinners were to return to the authoritative message of the Jewish fathers. He further called for repentance and condemned the Pharisees because their actions were not in accordance with the authoritative Word (Luke 3:7-14.) He then pointed them to one who would speak the “words of God,” and God’s words are always authoritative. See John 3:34 and Matthew 21:32
After John the Baptist, the battle for the authoritative Word escalates. Jesus arrives. Jesus claims the authority to forgive sins that belongs to God alone and claims to only speak the authoritative words of God (Mark 2:7; Luke 5:21). Jesus backs up His claims with mighty supernatural miracles that Scriptures predicted would be performed by the Messiah. Jesus, a man claiming to be equal with God, has a ministry-long battle against the misplaced authority of the Pharisee’s subjective words. Supporting the authority of Scripture, Jesus declares that Moses himself, though dead, accuses the Pharisees of sin through his writings. Jesus exposes the Pharisees as hypocrites who claim the Scriptures are authoritative, but in practice set the Scriptures aside and obey their own subjective revelations and words. He states that their worship is in vain and condemns them for, “teaching as doctrines the precepts of men” (Matthew 15:9; Mark 7:7). This progression culminates with Jesus, the prophet that their Moses predicted (Deuteronomy 18:15; Acts 3:22; 7:37), proclaiming eight “woes” of blistering judgment against the Pharisees and their words (Matthew 23). In essence, Jesus reiterates the words of John the Baptist condemning the Pharisees to the wrath of God because they would not obey His words.
Matthew 22:29
But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God
John 5:39
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me . . . the one who accuses you is Moses . . .
John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the Law, and yet none of you carries out the Law?
Matthew 23
14: Woe to you . . . you will receive greater condemnation.
15: Woe to you . . . you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16: Woe to you, blind guides,
17: You fools and blind men!
19: You blind men
23: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
24: You blind guides,
25: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites
26: You blind Pharisee
27: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! . . . you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
33: You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
In Matthew 7:15 Jesus commands us to beware of the coming false prophets who claim the authority of Jesus for themselves by acting and speaking in His name – even doing miracles. In verse 22 Jesus exposes their delusion (sincerely thinking Jesus was their Lord) and eternally casts them away because they didn’t listen to Scriptures (“these words of Mine”) or obey them. Jesus sets an example by eternally excluding these “sincere wonder-working men speaking in His name” exactly as he commands us to treat them now in 2 John 10. Why? Because like the Pharisees, these men usurped the authority of God’s name by bringing their own subjective words instead of obeying the objective words of Scripture.
Matthew 7:22
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”
Matthew 23:28
“So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.”
2 John 1:10
“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting.”
Several times the sect of the Pharisees brought their subjective words into the church; attempting to make them authoritative; see Acts 15:5:
[T]eaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.
The objective teachings of Christ and his authoritative apostles are complete and written in the Scriptures.
Like Moses, Jesus’ authoritative apostles, though dead, continue their work today to equip and build up the church through their writings in Scripture until we reach the unity of the faith and we are like Him because we see Him just as He is at the second coming (Ephesians 4:11-13; 1 John 3:2). Some, however, reject this authority and claim a special anointing. The Roman Catholic Pope claims to be another authoritative apostle and to speak on behalf of God Himself additional authoritative words, not contained in Scripture. Many “modern apostles and prophets,” in a similar way, claim to be “anointed” by God to speak their subjective words with His authority. Their prophecies often do not deny the Scriptures; they add to them and go beyond what is written. These men claim their subjective revelations are given by God and that we must obey them. Thus, they reject Scripture’s authority (2 Peter 2:10, Jude 1:8) that declares only God’s words are authoritative. 2 John 1:9 says that those who go too far and don’t abide in what Christ has already taught, do not have God and are teaching evil.
Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds. (2John 1:9, 10)
Authoritative “subjective words” are false and hostile to God because they are rejecting Scripture’s authority. According to 2Timothy 3:16, Scripture is for reproof, correction, and the training in all righteousness. Therefore, authoritative communication from God must be Scripture and not man’s words. According to 1Timothy 1:5-7, leaders straying from the authoritative Scriptures to teach subjective assertions leave behind a pure heart, good conscience and sincere faith to follow vanity and lawlessness:
But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
When we look at “testing” prophecy it is very similar to all the passages which command us to judge teachings of men, which is exactly what “subjective words” and “prophetic utterances” are. Jesus told His disciples to beware the leaven of the Pharisees, which was their teaching (Matthew 16:6, 12). In Acts and in his epistles, Paul warns us again and again against false teachings and false teachers. Peter, James, John and Jude also warn of false teachers. What is clear is that any teacher who shares his words and thoughts is obviously bringing the “precepts of man” because they are men. The teachings of men are not sin. There are many teachings of men that have brought temporal comfort to the world in mathematics, science, and philosophy. What is a “sin,” rejected and condemned, is to teach these precepts of man as “doctrines”— meaning as God’s words, claiming that they have the authority of God. These are the very teachings we are to ignore, and if those who teach them refuse to publicly acknowledge their teachings as wrong (not having God’s authority) and repent, they are to be 100% ignored as well.
Predictive Prophecy
Now that we have dealt with the central issue of authority, there remains the issue of predictive prophecy. Can modern prophecy be “predictive” and foretell the future? I believe that the gifts of the Spirit still operate and therefore I believe the answer is, “Yes.” However, I do not believe that modern predictive prophecy can be authoritative. Predictive prophecy is also subject to the authority of Scripture; Deuteronomy 13 and 18 specifically define the standards to test this type of prophecy.
Deuteronomy 13:1-3
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”
Deuteronomy 18:22
“When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”
The prophet must be 100% accurate in his predictions based on Deuteronomy 18:22. Therefore, for predictive prophecy to be true it must be factual and it must come true. A person who makes prophetic prediction that does not happen is to be 100% rejected and we are told not to fear them. In addition, predictive prophecy must not limit freedom by declaring certain responses to be the will of God or not. Authoritative predictive prophecy, because it sets itself up as equal to the authority of God’s Scriptures, is a sin.
Even if the prediction is accurate, Deuteronomy 13:3 tells us that the person still may be false based on their teachings as compared with Scriptures. Balaam prophesied correctly concerning the Messiah (Numbers 23, 24) but is still condemned as a false prophet from Numbers 31:16 through both testaments to Revelation 2:14. This is because, though Balaam prophesied correctly, his teaching caused Israel to sin.
The premise of this paper is that God has completed His objective words to us through His Son and apostles. “The Anointed One,” (Christ) the Jesus that the apostles preached, is objectively revealed in the Scriptures. Any additional prophet or apostle claiming to speak for God and reveal “more” of Jesus goes beyond what is written, leading towards another subjective Jesus (2Corinthians 11:4) and fails the test of Deuteronomy 13:1-3. Ultimately, God Himself will destroy them if they don’t repent.
Both Deuteronomy 18 and 13 command us to reject a false prophet entirely -- the person whose predictions do not come true and the person whose predictions come true but brings a misleading message.
What is the purpose of Subjective Words and Prophetic Utterance?
Scripture encourages prophecy. So we must ask “What place does prophetic utterance and subjective words legitimately fill in the church and in our lives? The answer is found in 1Corinthians 14:3:
edification-(oikodome) and
exhortation-(paraklesis) and
consolation/comfort-(paramuthia).
Edification, exhortation, and comfort do not authoritatively determine God’s will or sin – they are for the building up of the church.
Agabus, a New Testament Example
An excellent illustration of this is found in Acts 11 and 19, 20, 21. Agabus is one of the few “non-apostle” prophets who is mentioned by name and whose prophecy is recorded in the New Testament. His first appearance is recorded in Acts 11:27:
Now at this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them named Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius. And in the proportion that any of the disciples had means, each of them determined to send a contribution for the relief of the brethren living in Judea. And this they did, sending it in charge of Barnabas and Saul to the elders.
It was “by the Spirit,” pneuma in the Greek, that Agabus said that there would “certainly” be a famine all over the world. It was a prediction that could be objectively verified; the same standard we should use today. The Scripture then states that it happened as Agabus had said. It is especially interesting that Agabus never indicated that anybody should take any actions or indicated what response was God’s will. While he predicted the future, it was factual NOT directive/authoritative. Even the leadership didn’t use the prophecy as a command of God but the text specifically says “each of them determined” to send a contribution and that, by their own trusted men, not by the prophets. They were all free to send something and they were all free not too send anything. Either action was allowed without any threat of sin or promise of reward. Neither did God prophetically tell them that they had to give anything. When the famine happened as predicted the church was comforted and edified, the loving generosity of the Gentile Christians feeding their hungry brothers in Jerusalem.
In Acts 19:21 Paul purposed to go to Jerusalem and Rome, “Now after these things were finished, Paul purposed in the spirit to go to Jerusalem after he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, saying, ‘After I have been there, I must also see Rome.’”
The next passage is Acts 20:22 where Paul is telling the elders of the Ephesian Church what he believes that the Holy Spirit is telling him. Was this communicated prophetically? Perhaps, it certainly was later in Caesarea. Here is what Paul said:
And now, behold, bound in spirit, I am on my way to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit solemnly testifies to me in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions await me. But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God. (Acts 20:22-24
Paul indicates that the Holy Spirit has communicated to him in every city that bonds and afflictions await him in Jerusalem but he goes anyway. He was even in a hurry to get there as we see in verse 16. Paul’s exhortation comforts the leaders of Ephesus because when the predicted bonds and afflictions awaiting him occur, they are not “Satan’s victory” but part of the ministry God had sovereignly prepared for Paul to proclaim His gospel. This story continues in the first part of Acts 21 when Paul arrives at Tyre.
After looking up the disciples, we stayed there seven days; and they kept telling Paul through the Spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem. When our days there were ended, we left and started on our journey, while they all, with wives and children, escorted us until we were out of the city. After kneeling down on the beach and praying, we said farewell to one another. Then we went on board the ship, and they returned home again. (Acts 21:4-6)
The disciples of Tyre through some spiritual perception, kept telling Paul to change his plans and not go to Jerusalem. Paul ignores their subjective words and never even responds to their direction. When his days there are ended Paul gets back on the boat, goes to Caesarea, and stays with Phillip and his four prophetess daughters. Here in Philip’s house we find the prophet Agabus again.
As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. And coming to us, he took Paul’s belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, “This is what the Holy Spirit says: ‘In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’” When we had heard this, we as well as the local residents began begging him not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, “What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but even to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” And since he would not be persuaded, we fell silent, remarking, “The will of the Lord be done!” (Acts 21:10-14)
Agabus claims to be speaking for the Holy Spirit Himself and makes a prediction, declaring to Paul what will happen to him in Jerusalem. This is consistent with what Paul already said the Holy Spirit had indicated to him in Acts 20:23. Agabus, on behalf of the Holy Spirit never requests Paul to do something or indicates if Paul’s plans are God’s will or not. However, all the others around them respond with their own subjective words begging Paul not to go but, since Paul refused to be persuaded, they finally left it in the Lord’s hands and asked that “His will be done.”
This story is the complete account of Agabus from the New Testament. Agabus is consistent with the standards for a true prophet as defined in Deuteronomy 13 and 18. Agabus was never recorded as predicting something that didn’t happen. In addition, Agabus’ predictions were neither directive nor authoritative. Paul and others were free to follow their own conscience without doubting that perhaps they were sinning or missing God’s will. When Agabus’ prophecy actually happened, Paul and the church were encouraged because they knew that he was in God’s hands and that His will was being done as predicted.
Conclusion
God's complete authoritative word is contained in the Scripture. The gift of prophecy promised in this Scripture is to be used for the edification, exhortation, and comfort of the Church. While modern prophecy may predict the future, Scripture commands us to judge it and never accept it as authoritative. Therefore, true prophecy cannot be directive or declare the certain will of God in matters of guidance. Authoritative guidance is only found in the Scriptures. All forms of subjective words, including prophecy, may be considered and evaluated regarding the many decisions of life, however all subjective words are uncertain. Seeking authoritative guidance from subjective sources, including the words of modern apostles and prophets, is sin. According to Scripture, following these blind guides leads to delusion and destruction instead of the false peace they promise.
If we lack wisdom, the New Testament encourages us to ask God for wisdom and to act in faith (James 1:5, 6). We may make poor decisions contributing to difficulties and afflictions. However, like Paul during his journey to Jerusalem, we do not need to fear. Based on the authority of the Scriptures, we proceed in faith that God's sovereign, omnipotent power is sufficient to work all things together for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Implications of Biblical Authority
God may provide subjective words, and even predictive words, of edification, exhortation, and comfort to His church through man.
If someone claims to believe in the authority of Scripture and also claims to believe in “authoritative” subjective words, this person is in delusion. These ideas are contradictory. Thus, a statement of faith that declares the authority of Scripture is inherently opposed to any authoritative or directive subjective revelations. Any attempt to claim both Scripture and subjective revelations as authoritative is abusive. This is the essence of the reformation doctrine of Sola Scriptura.
Seeking or claiming to provide the objective will of God or authoritative direction outside of the Scriptures is a sin. According to the Scriptures this is not where it is legally to be found.
A congregation, leaders, or prophets that judge subjective words to be authoritative and “true” (on their own merit without objective direct proof in the Scriptures), risk being “false” themselves by claiming objective authority through their own subjective judging. It is not an “eat the cherries and spit out the pits” approach because there are no authoritative cherries to be found in subjective words.
Prophecy (prophetic utterance, visions, revelations, perceptions) and subjective words that claim to be authoritative on their own (not directly proven by Scripture) must be rejected outright as false and disregarded; no further “testing” or “judging” of the prophecy is required. If the person speaking them refuses to repent, they are to be excluded from fellowship, hopefully to redemption, so that they will come to their senses and repent (see 2Timothy 2:24-26).
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 4/23/2004 2:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Scripture is the only objective revealed Authority until the return of Jesus. . . . Does the completion of the Scriptures mean that the Holy Spirit has ceased working with men or speaking to us subjectively? No. It means that the Holy Spirit has ceased giving us additional “authoritative” words.
* * *
What is the purpose of Subjective Words and Prophetic Utterance?
Scripture encourages prophecy. So we must ask “What place does prophetic utterance and subjective words legitimately fill in the church and in our lives? The answer is found in 1Corinthians 14:3:
edification-(oikodome) and
exhortation-(paraklesis) and
consolation/comfort-(paramuthia).
Edification, exhortation, and comfort do not authoritatively determine God’s will or sin – they are for the building up of the church.
* * *
God may provide subjective words, and even predictive words, of edification, exhortation, and comfort to His church through man.
* * *
Authoritative guidance is only found in the Scriptures. All forms of subjective words... may be considered and evaluated regarding the many decisions of life, however all subjective words are uncertain.
* * *
Prophecy (prophetic utterance, visions, revelations, perceptions) and subjective words that claim to be authoritative on their own (not directly proven by Scripture) must be rejected outright as false and disregarded.
Thanks, spenlake. That was helpful for me. To the extent that you read “Seeing Is Believing” as advancing the idea that images in prayer are “authoritative”, I think I understand your concerns.  On the other hand, isn’t it possible (in fact, haven’t you said) that the Spirit could use images (“visions, revelations, perceptions”) today in the “subjective” sense that you describe? If imaginative prayer results in the “edification”, “exhortation” and/or “comfort” of the one praying, doesn’t this build the Church? If imaginative prayer is considered subjective, not authoritative, and is “tested” and “judged” in the light of authoritative Scripture, would you still have the same concerns?
Thanks,
JET
| | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/23/2004 4:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jet says: Thanks, spenlake. That was helpful for me. To the extent that you read “Seeing Is Believing” as advancing the idea that images in prayer are “authoritative”, I think I understand your concerns. On the other hand, isn’t it possible (in fact, haven’t you said) that the Spirit could use images (“visions, revelations, perceptions”) today in the “subjective” sense that you describe? If imaginative prayer results in the “edification”, “exhortation” and/or “comfort” of the one praying, doesn’t this build the Church?
Thanks,
JET
JET,
You say, "If imaginative prayer is considered subjective, not authoritative, and is “tested” and “judged” in the light of authoritative Scripture, would you still have the same concerns?" This is exactly what I have done. Subjective revelations that promise freedom in a ficticious anti-event ARE false and error based upon scriptures. To the extent someone teaches that healing, the power to forgive, and experiencing God are to be found in fictional anti-events, this person is preaching a false gospel. This is not the gospel of the Bible. I have repeatedly challenged Dr. Boyd and this board to prove otherwise. The challenge remains. They cannot do this because it is not Biblical.
In speaking of subjective revelations, revelations from God are never "false" or "reconstructed history." It isn't a scriptural concept. They may be about concepts or spiritual realities that we don't see with our physical eyes, but they are not false facts or false fadctual events. Prophecy, visions, and revelations are not ficticious simply because they are spiritual. False visions, false prophecy, and false revelations are false and lies (ficticions anti-events) because they are false. The message of the false prophets is consistently one of "peace, peace, where there is not peace." It is a message of false comfort, false healing, and experiencing the words of a god of their own making. Jeremiah 23 says, "Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you. They are leading you into futility; They speak a vision of their own imagination, not from the mouth of the LORD. “They keep saying to those who despise Me, ‘The LORD has said, “You will have peace”’;And as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart,They say, ‘Calamity will not come upon you.’ “But who has stood in the council of the LORD, That he should see and hear His word?
This is the message of "Seeing is Believing." It is a false gospel that promises peace and comfort in fictional anti-events. It pormises us exercises through which we experience God face to face, and find the power to forgive based upon false events. It promises this an the basis of the imaginative words of a man and not the scriptures. So I say, "Bunk." Let us return to the Lord and the testimony." This is found in the gospel and the word of God given to us by men and written in the Bible.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 4/23/2004 6:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks, spenlake. Are you opposed to all forms of imaginative prayer, or only when it involves (as Boyd says) "re-presenting" a past event in our minds? What about, for example, imagining Jesus as a shepherd and myself as a sheep (without tying this to any past event)?
Thanks,
JET | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/23/2004 7:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JET
Thanks, spenlake. Are you opposed to all forms of imaginative prayer, or only when it involves (as Boyd says) "re-presenting" a past event in our minds? What about, for example, imagining Jesus as a shepherd and myself as a sheep (without tying this to any past event)?
Thanks,
JET
I am not opposed to our "imagination." Imagining the parables and the allegorical illustrations that God gives us in His word seems proper. That would seem to be one of the reasons that God uses allgory and illustrations, to provoke our imaginations and to bring it into line with the truth. I am opposed to "Seeing is Believing" because it leads to "freestyle" spiritual experiences and a "freestyle Jesus" of our own making. This "Jesus" provides comfort in falsehood and delusion. This is evidenced in Dr. Boyd specifically giving us his example in which factual falsehood is the basis for his expereinced freedom. He imagines a false gospel through events that never occured and through which he obtins peace and comfort.
Imaginative prayer is not just praying with our minds and the capacity to conceptualize. "Imaginative Prayer" is a defined term in this book and the exercises that Dr. Boyd proposes are called "Resting in Christ." Given the anti-gospel nature of the example Dr. Boyd provides for his own expereince of Imaginative Prayer, coupled with his claim that it this expereince is resting in Christ, I would oppose teaching these exercises as a way to experience Jesus face to face, to find healing, and to obtain the power to forgive. These are found in the hard objective facts of the gospel given to us by men, written in black and white.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 4/23/2004 8:05 AM (GMT -6) | | What if I just imagine Grandma giving me a red airplane (as a way to deal with painful childhood memories)? Is this ok, as long as I don't imagine Jesus giving me the plane and I don't claim that this "anti-event" is Spirit-inspired or authoritative?
Thanks,
JET | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/23/2004 9:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JET
What if I just imagine Grandma giving me a red airplane (as a way to deal with painful childhood memories)? Is this ok, as long as I don't imagine Jesus giving me the plane and I don't claim that this "anti-event" is Spirit-inspired or authoritative?
Thanks,
JET
As far as I understand things this would seem to be in the realm of Christian liberty. We have many people among us that imagine many things, weird and otherwise. In itself, this may be silly, cause us to make poor investments, do dumb things, and on the upside, make us "feel better," laugh, etc. Men have liberty to speak to men, and themselves. When, I claim that it is God speaking, this entirely changes the discussion. Now I have made a power grab and, unless God has indeed spoken, I have stolen His authority, am approaching blasphemy, and acting as a false prophet. God is very serious about people taking His name and His word to themselves.
Men have the freedom to ignore the words of men without pain of sinning. Men are commanded to obey the words of God.
It is my opinion that if Dr. Boyd would have written and marketed his book under the title "Seeing is Good Feelings - a self-help guide to a therapy that makes you feel happier" things would be much less dangerous. Then they would be Dr. Boyd's exercises to smooth away painful memories with self-delusion - perhaps not even sinful. Unfortunately, this is exactly what wasn't done. Now, instead of a just a potentially silly idea, we have the name and authority of God and His Holy Spirit called in to give teeth and eternal worth to a silly idea - a false gospel masquerading as the real one. This is not just error, this has the potential to be a fatal eternal one. For this reason I plead with Dr. Boyd to call his exercises what they actually are, repent for calling them inspired and theun-supportable calims made in the name of God. I ask him to repent and return to preaching the true gospel purchased with the blood of God'd son.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 4/23/2004 10:20 AM (GMT -6) | | | Ok, what if I imagine Jesus giving me a red airplane, but I don't claim that this is Spirit-inspired or authoritative or that God is speaking? | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/23/2004 11:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JET
Ok, what if I imagine Jesus giving me a red airplane, but I don't claim that this is Spirit-inspired or authoritative or that God is speaking?
It would seem that you can imagine Jesus doing whatever you want and that in iteslf it wouldn't be a sin. You could also imagine him riding in a red airplane or riding a bicycle.
When you claim that you "experience" Jesus doing this, I think that you have crossed a line.
Even more to the point, when you "recreate" a specific historical event that was the antithesis of "receiving no present" there is a difference. Jesus and the gift of a red airplane has become something more than an imagination. When we consider a historical event and imagine Jesus there to modify it - this is different. When this imaginary Jesus calls us "good" (an attribute only of God)instead of the object of His "love" - this is different. Bringing God into a self-revised false history to justify oneself, condemn others and find comfort there - this radically different. This is an illegal play for God's authority, even in my imagination. I would call these vain imaginations. This breaks the commandment of Exodus 20:7, "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain." The Hebrew word for vanity is "shav" meaning, "emptiness, vanity:—deceit (2), deceitful (1), deception (1), emptiness (2), empty (1), false (9), false visions (4), falsehood (7), lies (1), vain (18), vanity (3), worthless (4)." This sounds perilously close to what is happening in God's name in one's imaginations.
I think that this comes close to using the name and character of God in empty vanity. We have somehow created our own imaginary God in our own imaginary world to suit and respond to our own desires, a God that obeys our imaginations and does what we want him to. It is this issue that is different; bringing God, His name and His authority into our fictitious history.
Using the authority of God in our own false history to justify ourselves and condemn those around us is the same concept as before, stealing God's authority to give credibility to our own words/imaginations. When this happens, I believe that this is not a question of liberty anymore. In a sense it would be being a false-prophet to one's self. This is exactly what the false prophets were doing in Jeremiah 23, "They speak a vision of their own imagination, not from the mouth of the LORD." When I imagine or pretend that God is dong actions and I attempt to experience them and have faith in them, I have created a god in my imagination that speaks to me but it isn't from the mouth of the Lord.
If you belive that it good doctrine and brings the freedom of the gospel, please support it with scriptures. Regarding teaching man's therapies as resting in Christ I think that the following applies, "BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN."
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
ohboy
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 4/23/2004 11:38 PM (GMT -6) | | This "Jesus" provides comfort in falsehood and delusion.
AMEN Spenlake (or should I say "Don Quixote? ;) )!! I am soon to be banned but God bless you for your courage to speak the truth in the face of hostility. I honestly don't know how you do it and manage to stay here w/o going crazy, but you are obviously much stronger, and much more gracious, than me!
Bye and take care and I enjoyed reading your posts. I will now disappear into cyberspace and be dissed as that troublemaking, disgruntled, axe to grind person! heehee. :)
Maybe I'll stop by in another year or so! Maybe by then things'll change but I doubt it. | | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/24/2004 6:43 AM (GMT -6) | | This is pertinent to this thread and comes from http://www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3231
Tom (TGB),
I appreciated your cogent presentation of Dr. Boyd's position and beliefs. I believe the events that you describe regarding your imaginary movie theater and their affect on you. I also believe that there are disconnects between the concepts you are supporting and scriptures. They may be useful tools in psychology and therapies, but they are not the gospel. I have taken the following paragraphs from your post below: quote:
I completely appreciate your concern for objective truth, the authority of Scripture, and the Christ of the gospels. I share that concern and think I defend these things also when I’m in a place to do so and can. But I think you’re missing the point. Take Boyd’s experience as a child that you comment on. What’s objective is that his grandmother devalued and belittled him and this scar influence the way he perceived his own value and place in the world.
As I see it, there’s more to the objective event than simply “Greg’s grandmother failed to love and value him in telling him he was a bad boy” and imaginative prayer is a way of discovering what other aspects of the objective event we missed when we experienced it the first time. What aspect do I mean? I mean Christ’s presence, purpose, and participation in the historical event itself. It is just as truly a part of what constitutes the “objective event” (unnoticed by Greg at the time) that Christ was in fact PRESENT when his grandmother spoke those hurtful influential words as are her hurtful words part of what constitutes the objective event. Furthermore, that Christ was not only present but was redemptively at work in the situation doing what he could to prevent the wound is as much a part of what constitutes the objective event as are his grandmother’s hurtful words. Lastly, that Christ himself grieved with Greg over his grandmother's treatment of him is as much a part of what constitutes the objective historical event as is her treatment of him.
Having said that, in imaginative prayer we go back and (this is important) based on the authority of the gospel, based on the Christ who hung on the cross for us, THEN discover a side to the objective historical event that we missed the first time we experienced it. Christ takes us back and shows us he WAS there, he DID work for us, and he SHARES in our grief. That presence, that work, and that grief are objective events (or rather, are part of the objective event), no less objective than the grandmother's treatment, etc. In discovering these we see the event for what IT REALLY WAS. We are not fantasizing what is not real. It is the reality of Christ’s presence, purpose, and participation in the historical event which forms the basis upon which Greg (or any of us) can learn to relate to past experiences differently, redefining their meaning based on having learned more of what REALLY happened than he previously knew.
There is an element regarding looking at life from the objective scriptural perspective that I indeed agree with. You mention this, "Having said that, in imaginative prayer we go back and (this is important) based on the authority of the gospel, based on the Christ who hung on the cross for us, THEN discover a side to the objective historical event that we missed the first time we experienced it." In as much as we "remember" the factual event in light of or against the backdrop of the factual work of Christ on the cross, I am in agreement with you. The objective truth of the gospel and the perspective we are to have was commanded to us by Peter (who knew the real Jesus, not an imaginary one). This Jesus when He was reviled and called bad "kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously" and "He did not revile in return." Peter commands us to follow in His example, not to rebuke grandmothers. If we follow this example, there is no "fictional anti-event" but the review of a factual one that doesn't change as we commit ourselves to the loving sovereignty of God. It is simply viewed from the perspective that we have a loving Christ that loved and died for us and we entrust ourselves to the one who judges righteously.
Dr. Boyd and his example he gives us in the book goes farther than this and leaves the gospel truth through a spirit inspired fiction. This is much different than changing the perspective, it has the truth evolve into fiction.
There is a fundamental disconnect between what you state and what I believe is supported by scripture. I think that it is most clear in your statement, "Lastly, that Christ himself grieved with Greg over his grandmother's treatment of him is as much a part of what constitutes the objective historical event as is her treatment of him." I am certain Christ objectively grieves over all sins, including the boy Greg's. However, in light of 1 Peter 2:21, I don't see Jesus taking sides and encouraging boys to rebuke their authorities over lack of presents and then joining in Himself. In a conflict between two people over material goods I think of Luke 12:13, "Someone in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the family inheritance with me.” But He said to him, “Man, who appointed Me a judge or arbitrator over you?” What would little Greg have felt if instead of a red airplane, the gift of Jesus was red blood that covered all of Greggie’s sins? This would be protection and comfort from the all the accusations of being “bad” that could assail him. He would be clean with the righteousness of Christ and who then could call him "bad?" This imaginary Jesus that comforts Dr. Boyd encourages him to revile his grandmother for freedom and gives him a plane. Which one is scriptural?
I think that I find a strange confusion in your concept of objective/subjective. You call objective, “the way he perceived his own value and place in the world.” Internal perceptions are not objective, but subjective. This is a core difference. The factual event was objective. The words spoken were objective. The values behind the words and the feelings that they inspired were subjective. In your statement you have muddled these.
I don't think that your concept of Jesus grieving over the grandmother's treatment of Greg is as central or one-sided as you make it seem. I believe that Jesus would grieve over the sins of the grandmother as well as the sins of Greg, his sisters, etc. Jesus grieves over all sin and the condition of all sinners. To limit His grief to a single party in a conflict between two sinners doesn't seem scriptural but playing favorites. It seems more like a hyper-Calvinist view that I reject. While Jesus grieves over sins, His only solution was to bear these away and resolved the problem on the cross. In contrast to your focus on Jesus sharing Greg's abuse from his grandmother, I find that scripture calls us to share in and focus on the sufferings of Christ. This concept is much different that yours - and it is supported by scripture. It is Christ's sufferings that should be our focus and not our own. I think that your position here becomes weak and flimsy.
1 Peter 2:21 "For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls."
1 Co 1:7 "our hope for you is firmly grounded, knowing that as you are sharers of our sufferings, so also you are sharers of our comfort."
Phil 4:3 "our hope for you is firmly grounded, knowing that as you are sharers of our sufferings, so also you are sharers of our comfort."
Phil 4:14 "Nevertheless, you have done well to share with me in my affliction."
Col 1:24 "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions."
Heb 10:32 "But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one."
Hebrews 12:10 "For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness."
1 Peter 4:13 "Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation."
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/26/2004 10:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
When you claim that you "experience" Jesus doing this, I think that you have crossed a line.
Spen, our brains, our God given intellect and our imagination are part of our physicality. We experience what we focus on - not physically always (though we all know this can happen), sometimes just emotionally.
We experience transformation and that takes place in our minds. It is the things that we experience that truly transform us - so why wouldn't the Holy Spirit work in this way? How else could we be transformed? Transformation requires our will, our intellect, our emotions...our "experience" of the work of the Holy Spirit and sometimes through visions that He inspires, sometimes through dreams, sometimes through...limitless possibilities!
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
| | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/27/2004 12:59 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
When you claim that you "experience" Jesus doing this, I think that you have crossed a line.
Spen, our brains, our God given intellect and our imagination are part of our physicality. We experience what we focus on - not physically always (though we all know this can happen), sometimes just emotionally.
We experience transformation and that takes place in our minds. It is the things that we experience that truly transform us - so why wouldn't the Holy Spirit work in this way? How else could we be transformed? Transformation requires our will, our intellect, our emotions...our "experience" of the work of the Holy Spirit and sometimes through visions that He inspires, sometimes through dreams, sometimes through...limitless possibilities!
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Jo-Anne,
The scriptures tell us how we are to experience the renewing of our minds and it is not through freestyle spiritual expereinces. We see;
2 Peter 1:8, "In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of £your faith the salvation of your souls."
John 20:28, "Jesus said* to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
These who followed believed because they heard the oral message of the witnesses who had seen, and then they read the written message that these witnesses left us.
Romans 10:16, "However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."
Galatians 3:2, "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"
It it silly and delusionary to teach that we "renew our minds" to the mind of Christ through experiencing false anti-events of reconstructed history. God does NOT lead our minds to truth through false events. God has given us the Spirit of Truth to lead our minds into the truth though hearing and believing the true message from Him, the truth of the gospel and the death of the Son of God for our sins. A spirit that brings a false message of anti-events offering feelings of comfort in red airplanes instead of the red blood of the true Jesus - this is not renewing our minds to have the mind of Christ. BUNK. If this is now what you believe after reading this book, then you need to join Dr. Boyd and repent before God who gave His Son for your sins. Experience the true God who died for you and not the Jesus of the red airplanes offering the forgiving power of falsehood.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/28/2004 9:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
If this is now what you believe after reading this book, then you need to join Dr. Boyd and repent before God who gave His Son for your sins. Experience the true God who died for you and not the Jesus of the red airplanes offering the forgiving power of falsehood.
Spen,
I will not take this personally since it can't be because you do not know me and I will respond as Christ would have me respond to you as a brother in Christ, in honesty and in love. You are, here, putting yourself in a place of judgement. It is the Holy Spirit alone who does that. Spen, I've offered numerous times to recount to you the "anti-event" which transformed my own life. However it is that a personal experience during prayer could be counted as an "anti-event?"
And as far as repenting before the God who died for me and who gave His son for my sins? I've already done that and once was good enough for Him.
I'm curious. Do you consider what John wrote on the Isle of Patmos to be the product of an "anti-event?"
By the way...it may have been a red airplane for Dr Boyd and I praise God for the Holy Spirit using that vision or dream or whatever in healing and transforming his life and I praise God for the vision of the birdcage that he gave me in prayer and for the freedom that I experienced that day as He took my hand and led me out of there. But I, as Dr Boyd, knows where that freedom came from. It did not come from a red airplane, or a bird cage or an anti-event. It came from the Living God - the One who sent a very real comforter in His place.
I give Him all the honour and glory for what He did in my life that day.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne  (A King's Kid)
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
| | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/29/2004 9:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
If this is now what you believe after reading this book, then you need to join Dr. Boyd and repent before God who gave His Son for your sins. Experience the true God who died for you and not the Jesus of the red airplanes offering the forgiving power of falsehood.
Spen,
I will not take this personally since it can't be because you do not know me and I will respond as Christ would have me respond to you as a brother in Christ, in honesty and in love. You are, here, putting yourself in a place of judgement. It is the Holy Spirit alone who does that. Spen, I've offered numerous times to recount to you the "anti-event" which transformed my own life. However it is that a personal experience during prayer could be counted as an "anti-event?"
And as far as repenting before the God who died for me and who gave His son for my sins? I've already done that and once was good enough for Him.
I'm curious. Do you consider what John wrote on the Isle of Patmos to be the product of an "anti-event?"
By the way...it may have been a red airplane for Dr Boyd and I praise God for the Holy Spirit using that vision or dream or whatever in healing and transforming his life and I praise God for the vision of the birdcage that he gave me in prayer and for the freedom that I experienced that day as He took my hand and led me out of there. But I, as Dr Boyd, knows where that freedom came from. It did not come from a red airplane, or a bird cage or an anti-event. It came from the Living God - the One who sent a very real comforter in His place.
I give Him all the honour and glory for what He did in my life that day.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne (A King's Kid)
Jo-Anne,
I didn't call your spiritual experience either false or an anti-event. I simply called it an experience. If the experience that you had is a rewritten "experienced" history that is objectively false compared to the factual record, then I would label it a fictinal anti-event. When you ask, "I'm curious. Do you consider what John wrote on the Isle of Patmos to be the product of an "anti-event?" I am surprised. There is no false history in the book of Revelation. There is not one shred of objective history that is being "spiritually recreated" to give comfort. What is given are objective promises and the certain "future historical events" that really will take place. There is nothing false about the book of Revelation, God forbid. If you believe that there is a parallel and that Revelation is a fictional anti-event according to my denfinition - provide an example where it inspires false history. This is a challenge. I believe that the book is true, not factually false.
This is exactly what is wrong with the teachings of Dr. Boyd and the example that he gave in his book. It is a great concern that you cannot discern the difference between a false historical record and a real history witnessed by real men. I have nothing to say regarding whether Dr. Boyd FELT comforted, I can tell you with the authority of the Bible that the spirit of truth does not lead us into "truth" by inspiring "false history" for us to experience. BUNK. The Spirit of Truth brings us to the truth by the message of truth. Based on the authority of the Bible, those that find freedom in fictional anti-events have not found it in the gospel, the only place eternal freedom is found.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/29/2004 8:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
This is exactly what is wrong with the teachings of Dr. Boyd and the example that he gave in his book. It is a great concern that you cannot discern the difference between a false historical record and a real history witnessed by real men. I have nothing to say regarding whether Dr. Boyd FELT comforted, I can tell you with the authority of the Bible that the spirit of truth does not lead us into "truth" by inspiring "false history" for us to experience. BUNK. The Spirit of Truth brings us to the truth by the message of truth. Based on the authority of the Bible, those that find freedom in fictional anti-events have not found it in the gospel, the only place eternal freedom is found.
Spen,
God inspired John on the Isle of Patmos with Holy Spirit inspired visions and they became part of the cannon. Some of them certainly sound like imagination - but I do not believe they were false at all, because I believe that scripture (including the men who dreamed dreams and had visions) is inspired by the Holy Spirit. In the same way, I believe that God gives people dreams and visions to be shared as prophecy (not prophetic, though I'm sure He does the same there).
I realize that you and I are coming from opposite ends of the spectrum, but that's alright. I realize that the picture of the Father that I have may be quite different from yours and that's alright too. I recognize that how we see the Father affects our own life and how we treat others. I also acknowledge that my worth comes from Him and not from what I think. I will not give up my picture of the Father that I see in Jesus because it rings true to me and I believe it is biblically true as well. You may believe the same thing. We may be at a stalemate. I'm not sure. I probably do not have the ability to discuss theology that you have and that's alright too. I have love - and I have a Father that loves and is able to do "exceedingly beyond all that I ask or imagine according to the power that works within me." (Eph 3:20). I believe that a vision of Jesus giving a red airplane to a toddler is congruent with the tender shepherd that I see in scripture. Jesus cares about our deepest hurts, fears, dreams, longings and He speaks to each of us in unique ways. He came to heal, not just physically but in every way and I agree with Dr Boyd. The Holy Spirit can take a mind that is submitted to Him and focused on Him and inspire it with a vision that can heal our lives, transform our lives and I see that as being just ONE of the ways that we are transformed by the renewing of our minds, from one glory to another...until one day we will be complete in Him and we will be just like Him. Until then we see in a glass darkly. None of us have the market cornered on what He looks like or how He speaks to us.
Sounds like you've never had an experience as Dr Boyd has and I have. Perhaps you did not need to. Perhaps He speaks differently to you. But please do not discount or judge as false what the Holy Spirit does in the life of another believer because you do not understand it, haven't experienced it... God is in the business of transforming lives. The vision that Dr Boyd had and the one that I had is no less real than the visions God gave to godly men and women throughout the Bible, not to mention godly men and women throughout generations who were inspired and whose lives and walk inspire those who follow. We have a great cloud of witnesses following after us. Our lives will show weather or not God is growing fruit. The greatest evidence for the non-believer is that we "love one another" and by this "shall all men know" that we are His disciples.
We have an amazing Father. He created us with amazing minds. He gave us imagination and senses and emotion and physical attributes and He speaks to us in more ways than we dare imagine. I believe that He will speak to a heart that is seeking Him, that He doesn't disappoint us (I'm not talking about a Christian asking Him to speak to them through a Ouija board). The one promise we have a garauntee of is the promise of His presence. James 4 says that if we draw near to Him that He will draw near to us.
God Bless you Spen,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
| | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/30/2004 1:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne,
You tell me, "Sounds like you've never had an experience as Dr Boyd has and I have. Perhaps you did not need to. Perhaps He speaks differently to you. But please do not discount or judge as false what the Holy Spirit does in the life of another believer because you do not understand it, haven't experienced it... God is in the business of transforming lives. The vision that Dr Boyd had and the one that I had is no less real than the visions God gave to godly men and women throughout the Bible, not to mention godly men and women throughout generations who were inspired and whose lives and walk inspire those who follow. We have a great cloud of witnesses following after us. Our lives will show weather or not God is growing fruit. The greatest evidence for the non-believer is that we "love one another" and by this "shall all men know" that we are His disciples."
I am not discounting what the Holy Spirit did in somebody's life because I have not experienced it. I have never been raised from the dead, and yet I believe it. I have never walked on water, and yet I believe that it happened, and even could happen now (but it would only be real if it happened in the flesh with a real body and real water. Otherwise it would be delusion.) I BELIEVE that Dr. Boyd experienced something - I really do. I judge it false and deceptive because, according to the scriptures and the authority that they have, it IS false. It has nothing to do with my experience. That some of the cults can express a unity and external love among their group, this is historical fact. Many of these cults are more enthusiastic in their outward expressions of love than the Christians. This does not mean that they know God or will be known by Him. 1 Co 8:2 says, "if anyone loves God, he is known by Him." If we do not know the real Christ, but a false one, then we love the false and will not be known by God. This is what happened in Matt 7:23 to the miracle working men that looked at Jesus on his throne and called Him Lord. He expelled them to damnation because He did not known them. They thought that they knew the real Jesus but they were eternally mistaken.
The love of Christianinty has objective content and it is centered squarely on the gospel and ONLY the true revealed Christ. John 14:15, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." 1 John 3:23 "This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." True love for one another is ONLY built upon the objective and revealed Christ. External loves that are built upon other things or other Christs are defective and deluding. Love "feelings" for grandmothers that is discovered and experienced in fictional anti-events is deluding. Forgiveness is found in Christ, the real one, and not in imaginary and false historical events.
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/30/2004 5:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
That some of the cults can express a unity and external love among their group, this is historical fact. Many of these cults are more enthusiastic in their outward expressions of love than the Christians. This does not mean that they know God or will be known by Him. 1 Co 8:2 says, "if anyone loves God, he is known by Him." If we do not know the real Christ, but a false one, then we love the false and will not be known by God. This is what happened in Matt 7:23 to the miracle working men that looked at Jesus on his throne and called Him Lord. He expelled them to damnation because He did not known them. They thought that they knew the real Jesus but they were eternally mistaken.
Hi Jo-Anne,
Love is more important than knowledge. Stolen knowledge from the forbidden fruit, knowledge that passes judgment on others, judgment that is reserved only for God. We should read 1 Cor:8 and Matthew 7:15 in context without the spin. Contrary to Spinlake, Matthew 7 says it is by the fruit of the Spirit (which includes love) and NOT by ones doctrine of proclaiming Christ that we can distinguish false prophets. Without the fruit of love, you are just a whitewashed tomb a clanging cymbal, an annoying niggling nuisance, unknown to Jesus.
1 Cor. 8:1-3 (NIV)
Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God.
Matthew 7:15-23 (NIV)
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. [16] By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? [17] Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. [18] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. [19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [20] Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
[21] "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' [23] Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Peace,
Mark
| | Back to Top | | |
|
spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/30/2004 3:38 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
That some of the cults can express a unity and external love among their group, this is historical fact. Many of these cults are more enthusiastic in their outward expressions of love than the Christians. This does not mean that they know God or will be known by Him. 1 Co 8:2 says, "if anyone loves God, he is known by Him." If we do not know the real Christ, but a false one, then we love the false and will not be known by God. This is what happened in Matt 7:23 to the miracle working men that looked at Jesus on his throne and called Him Lord. He expelled them to damnation because He did not known them. They thought that they knew the real Jesus but they were eternally mistaken.
Hi Jo-Anne,
Love is more important than knowledge. Stolen knowledge from the forbidden fruit, knowledge that passes judgment on others, judgment that is reserved only for God. We should read 1 Cor:8 and Matthew 7:15 in context without the spin. Contrary to Spinlake, Matthew 7 says it is by the fruit of the Spirit (which includes love) and NOT by ones doctrine of proclaiming Christ that we can distinguish false prophets. Without the fruit of love, you are just a whitewashed tomb a clanging cymbal, an annoying niggling nuisance, unknown to Jesus.
1 Cor. 8:1-3 (NIV)
Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God.
Matthew 7:15-23 (NIV)
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. [16] By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? [17] Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. [18] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. [19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [20] Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
[21] "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' [23] Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Peace,
Mark
Mark,
The knowledge of the truth is paramount and without a knowledge of the truth one cannot be saved. Without the indwelling of the Spirit of Truth, one is not a Christian. Truth and our knowing it is paramount because without it we cannot love with the agape love of God. Love has content. Contrary to what Mark said about the passage in Matthew 7, the fruit is that they do not do the will of the Father, the will of the Father is to keep His commandments and to believe in the one whom He has sent. These men claimed to follow Jesus but did not believe in Him. They followed a Jesus of their own making, a false one. They did not keep His commandments and are called lawless.
Without a knowledge of the truth, what passes for the fruit of the Spirit when we view it externally, is actually something else.
John 8:31, "So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
1 Tim 2:1, "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1 Tim 2:24, "The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will."
1 Tim 3:7, "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’ and Jambres’ folly was also."
Titus 1:1, "Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,"
Hebrews 10:26, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"
1 John 2:4, "The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected."
1 John 2:1, "I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth."
2 John 1:1, "The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth, for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:"
1 John 3:17, "But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him in whatever our heart condemns us."
Spen Lake
| | Back to Top | | |
| 78 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 4:17 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|