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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > Dr. Boyd and his followers (Seeing is Believing) | Forum Quick Jump
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/30/2004 7:13 PM (GMT -6) |   | Spen Lakequote:
This is what happened in Matt 7:23 to the miracle working men that looked at Jesus on his throne and called Him Lord. He expelled them to damnation because He did not known them. They thought that they knew the real Jesus but they were eternally mistaken.
They "thought" they themselves had done enough of the "good" deeds but missed the most important ingredient --> LOVE. They "thought" they knew love but really only knew the law.
(works - love = a clashing cymbal) The parable of the Good Samaritan is a great explanation of those who "thought" they were righteous but they lacked love. These are the ones Jesus was referring to in Matt 7.
Spen Lakequote:
Forgiveness is found in Christ, the real one, and not in imaginary and false historical events
I am not sure you understand how some people do forgiveness in their life. You are blanketing that EVERYONE will know/experience Christ in the same way. God uses whatever means possible to speak to us and to work in our lives. Imagination is one such vessel. Sometimes restructuring the event so that the person understands where God was in the midst of the storm is necessary. I believe Jesus is a perfect example of how God uses the arts to speak to us. Jesus spoke in MANY parables and taught important lessons from made up historical events. From these parables many lessons were taught and the Holy Spirit moved.
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/30/2004 7:48 PM (GMT -6) | | John Earpquote:
I'd be willing to bet money spenlake has a visceral disgust for the poem, "Footprints in the Sand."
Spen Lake, if this is true then I feel very sad for you. You are missing much of the beauty that God created by being deceived by the enemy. Our walk with God is to be fully experienced and embraced. God created ALL of us to fully experience truth and beauty. The arts and the imagination can be beautiful ways to enter into the presence of our Lord and Creator.
Dear brother, try to enter into and experience what the scriptures say by experiencing it with your whole being.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/30/2004 8:31 PM (GMT -6) | |
FOOTPRINTS IN THE SAND
One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord.
Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky.
In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand.
Sometimes there were two sets of footprints.
Other times there were one set of footprints.
This bothered me because I noticed that during the low periods of my life
When I was suffering from anguish, sorrow, or defeat,
I could see only one set of footprints.
So I said to the Lord, "You promised me, Lord,
That if I followed you, you would walk with me always.
But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life
There have only been one set of prints in the sand.
Why, When I have needed you most, you have not been there for me?"
The Lord replied,
"The times when you have seen only one set of footprints
Is when I carried you."
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By Mary Stevenson
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/30/2004 9:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
FOOTPRINTS IN THE SAND
One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord.
Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky.
In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand.
Sometimes there were two sets of footprints.
Other times there were one set of footprints.
This bothered me because I noticed that during the low periods of my life
When I was suffering from anguish, sorrow, or defeat,
I could see only one set of footprints.
So I said to the Lord, "You promised me, Lord,
That if I followed you, you would walk with me always.
But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life
There have only been one set of prints in the sand.
Why, When I have needed you most, you have not been there for me?"
The Lord replied,
"The times when you have seen only one set of footprints
Is when I carried you."
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By Mary Stevenson
That is beautiful and famous and it is an IMAGE that accurately portrays what is true about the Saviour.
SPEN...(and anyone else), I have a question. I've mentioned it repeatedly but no one as taken the bait. If you don't believe in images, then what do you do with the whole of scripture that involves visions and dreams, the host of brothers and sisters in Christ whose lives have been transformed by IMAGES (re-presented) in the form of visions and dreams and with prophecy (which Paul urges us all to do) which is most often the result of Holy Spirit inspired visions and dreams during prayer times?
Our imagination, as with any other aspect of the flesh, must be submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and when submitted I believe has and is being used in ways that transform believers and reach unbelievers.
My Jesus would give a Toddler a bright red, shiny plane to heal a deep wound. My Jesus would take a little girl's hand and lead her out of a birdcage to a grassy hillside and sit with her and listen to birds singing, the gentle sound of water swirling over rocks, feeling the wind run it's fingers through our hair and feeling the warmth of the sun as we sat in quiet wonder, our hearts warmed by the realization that if the Son has made you free, you are free indeed! I now know what the "indeed" means and not only is it something that you cannot dismiss (because the transformation is undeniable and is in keeping with what He desires to do in my life). It is also in keeping with the Jesus that we see - the exact imprint of the Father. It only makes sense that if our minds have been profoundly affected by IMAGES of this world - that He can profoundly affect (heal these memories) us by replacing them with images that are at least as profound and teach us the truth about Him, about ourselves and about others - instead of believing a lie which is the deception of the world and of the enemy. Another thing to seriously consider is that these "anti-events" as you so call them...lead people to forgive others. Perhaps that is the most powerful effect of Holy Spirit inspired imagination - it enables the believer to understand and forgive and that in itself is transforming.
Oh please...see what I'm saying. I have a heart for God and for truth and I have not been deceived.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/1/2004 2:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selah
spen:
quote:
The knowledge of the truth is paramount and without a knowledge of the truth one cannot be saved.
selah:
ya lost me. what is the purpose of posting all those verses on Truth?
Are you claiming to have more "truth" than someone else? That would be very hard to do (i would think) since only God knows the complexity of another person...
Anyway, If Jesus IS the Truth and God IS love...then I guess I don't understand how you can call one or the other PARAMOUNT. know what I mean? I think THE truth we need to know is LOVE (and all that that entails). If Jesus didn't think this -- He sure lived it!
On the other hand, I guess I can imagine Jesus living as a "truth patrol" but that looks very different than the Jesus I see in Scripture.
peace penguin 2 u
love
selah
Selah,
I am not claiming that I have more truth than anyone else. I am claiming that we all have the truth that was once for all revealed to us in man, Jesus, who died for us and offers eternal life to all who believe in Him and His work. Love is not primarily a feeling. It has content. The love of God is expressed in the truth of the message. God loves us but we don't feel this in some freestyle way. 1 John 3:16, "We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." It is through the message and content of the gospel that we know love. As we come to believ in this love it will have its outworking and effect on us and express itself to those arround us.
Love is not a freestyle emotion and expressing emotions and loving actions is not preaching the gospel as we are commanded to do. Expressing loving actions and preaching another message is deceptive. The Mormons and many of the cults do a very good job at expressing tangible actions and offering a false message. This is what Dr. Boyd has done in this book. He sincerely is offering another message and calling it resting in Christ when in fact it is not the gospel but consists in fictional anti-events, a false history. We do not come to know the truth (and hence the love of God) through the doorway of false. History is true, the gospel is true history, the Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, and as the true gospel is believed , we come to know and express the love of God.
Spen Lake
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 5/1/2004 3:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Selah,
I am claiming that we all have the truth that was once for all revealed to us in man, Jesus, who died for us and offers eternal life to all who believe in Him and His work.
Good. This assures you, me, Jo-Anne, and Dr. Boyd that we are all in agreement and are all going to live eternally together. hurrah!
quote:
Love is not primarily a feeling. It has content. The love of God is expressed in the truth of the message. God loves us but we don't feel this in some freestyle way. 1 John 3:16, "We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." It is through the message and content of the gospel that we know love. As we come to believ in this love it will have its outworking and effect on us and express itself to those arround us.
I'm trying to understand this spen. I get that love is not primarily a feeling (again, we all do), and we all agree on 1 John 3:16. Where's the beef? You lose me when you go on... "through the message and content of the gospel" we love. Are you suggesting we love through knowledge (knowledge of the "truth") OR, do you believe that we love because we are in Christ and He is in us (John 17:20-26)? It sounds like the former when you say "as we come to believe in this love" (know) THEN "it will have its outworking..."
quote:
...and loving actions is not preaching the gospel as we are commanded to do.
On this, I disagree. How can we (in words) preach a gospel better than one we could live? I think Love IS the Gospel and Being Love to each other IS preaching the Gospel. (if you don't think so, ask st.francis  )
quote:
Expressing loving actions and preaching another message is deceptive. The Mormons and many of the cults do a very good job at expressing tangible actions and offering a false message. This is what Dr. Boyd has done in this book.
I've worked for counter-cult ministries for over 5 years. I've read this book and checked out Dr. Boyd. He may be a lot of things, but a cult leader, Mormon, Master Eck he is not. (btw, how do you define a cult? We defined it as a sect that denies the deity of Christ. Again, no matter how hard you stuff him, I don't think you can fit Boyd in that box)
peace and love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/1/2004 4:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah,quote:
Selah says, I 've worked for counter-cult ministries for over 5 years. I've read this book and checked out Dr. Boyd. He may be a lot of things, but a cult leader, Mormon, Master Eck he is not.
You have read the book. Do you agree with the example Dr. Boyd gives concerning finding the power to forgive in a false recreation of history? Is this, as he claims, resting in Christ? Is this inspired by God and given to him by the Holy Spirit? It may be human therapy, but to claim what Dr. Boyd is claiming, this goes to far and is not supported by scripture. In as much as he is teaching that this is resting in Christ, in as much as he is teaching that we find freedom in false historical anti-events, Dr. Boyd is teaching error and one that may have eternal implications. Love is not found in teaching error from a sincere heart. If you are the expert in counter-cult ministries and defective beliefs, defend this book and its "finding the truth through the false" with scripture. The book is not neutral and makes strong claims, defective claims about Christ and freedom.
I have not called him a "cult leader," "Master Eck," or a Mormon as you imply. I have claimed that finding freedom in false history is what we accuse Mormons of doing. My friend Christ, who is a Mormon, corrected me and stated that it was only defective Mormons that would believe in false history. He holds the book of Mormon to be historically accurate. Thus even a legitimate Mormon wouldn't descend as far a Dr. Boyd to find the power to forgive in a false history. If this false anti-event is spiritually inspired, as claimed by Dr. Boyd, then the spirit that inspired it is false and not the spirit of Christ. We have a substitute Christ born in the imagination of Dr. Boyd that isn't consistent with scriptures. This is where the similarity is found between Mormonism and Dr. Boyd. Chris claims the label "Christian" because he believes that he believes in Christ. The Christ Chris believes in isn't the Christ of the canon. Dr. Boyd claims that he is teaching "resting in Christ" and the Christ he is resting in isn't the Christ of the canon either. Christ's spirit of truth doesn't lead us into truth through mystically experiencing false history.
Are Dr. Boyd's exercises and his teaching them technically a "sect" or a "cult" or just a different gospel and a deluding spirit? You can explain this to me in the vocabulary of the counter-cult ministries. It is not scriptural, not the gospel, not eternal, but vain worship consisting of the precepts of men masquerading as God's word. Let him simply call his exercises mental "therapy." Let him repent and quit hiding behind the label of Christ and claiming the authority of scriptures to support a man-made therapy that isn't the gospel.
Spen Lake
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 5/1/2004 7:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
You have read the book. Do you agree with the example Dr. Boyd gives concerning finding the power to forgive in a false recreation of history? Is this, as he claims, resting in Christ? Is this inspired by God and given to him by the Holy Spirit?
spen,
It's clear by the way you phrase your question that you may just be misunderstaning Boyd's most basic claim. I don't believe that we should seek to create false history, however I DO believe that THROUGH RESTING IN CHRIST God will direct us (in whatever way HE SO CHOOSES) toward healing. He might reveal something we could have never seen without His perspective. I think when we seek God, we will find Him.
Yes. I believe resting in Christ, seeking His perspective, and power to heal are all Scriptual and inspired.
quote:
It may be human therapy, but to claim what Dr. Boyd is claiming, this goes to far and is not supported by scripture. In as much as he is teaching that this is resting in Christ, in as much as he is teaching that we find freedom in false historical anti-events, Dr. Boyd is teaching error and one that may have eternal implications.
Well, I'm not here to defend Dr. Boyd, but it seems to me that God has given this "good" gift of healing to him and to many. If the scripture is true that every "good gift" comes from above, then who is your argument really with? God or Greg?
quote:
...If you are the expert in counter-cult ministries and defective beliefs, defend this book and its "finding the truth through the false" with scripture. The book is not neutral and makes strong claims, defective claims about Christ and freedom.
Well, I'm not claiming to be THE expert, but I would be willing to dialogue with you via email about this. I don't think the book makes defective claims about Christ and freedom, but I'll certainly work it through with you Scripturally, no prob. :) Oh,and as an aside, Dr Boyd has included a great deal of scripture in the book itself. From chapter one through the notes (beginning on page 209) I think he argues his position with the use of scripture better than I could.
quote:
I have not called him a "cult leader," "Master Eck," or a Mormon as you imply.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. I guess I was trying to refer to the implications of your use of terms like those when challenging Dr Boyd's theology. "Mormon" has been used repeatedly.
quote:
...Thus even a legitimate Mormon wouldn't descend as far a Dr. Boyd to find the power to forgive in a false history. If this false anti-event is spiritually inspired, as claimed by Dr. Boyd, then the spirit that inspired it is false and not the spirit of Christ. We have a substitute Christ born in the imagination of Dr. Boyd that isn't consistent with scriptures. This is where the similarity is found between Mormonism and Dr. Boyd.
Ok, here's where I think another careful reading of the book could be useful. I honestly believe you misunderstand the claims Dr. Boyd has made. For instance, does he use the term "false history" or is that your term? Often, I find that rereading a book, taking notes, and even reading it outloud are all helpful ways of bringing clarity out of confusing passages. I've had to do this a lot! Especially when I didn't understand the Open View. I'm doing it currently with some philosophy reading. It's more work, but it pays off.
quote:
Dr. Boyd claims that he is teaching "resting in Christ" and the Christ he is resting in isn't the Christ of the canon either.
I have no idea how you would know this.
love
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/1/2004 8:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Selahquote:
Spen says,...Thus even a legitimate Mormon wouldn't descend as far a Dr. Boyd to find the power to forgive in a false history. If this false anti-event is spiritually inspired, as claimed by Dr. Boyd, then the spirit that inspired it is false and not the spirit of Christ. We have a substitute Christ born in the imagination of Dr. Boyd that isn't consistent with scriptures. This is where the similarity is found between Mormonism and Dr. Boyd.
Ok, here's where I think another careful reading of the book could be useful. I honestly believe you misunderstand the claims Dr. Boyd has made. For instance, does he use the term "false history" or is that your term? Often, I find that rereading a book, taking notes, and even reading it outloud are all helpful ways of bringing clarity out of confusing passages. I've had to do this a lot! Especially when I didn't understand the Open View. I'm doing it currently with some philosophy reading. It's more work, but it pays off.
quote:
Spen says, Dr. Boyd claims that he is teaching "resting in Christ" and the Christ he is resting in isn't the Christ of the canon either.
I have no idea how you would know this.
love
selah
Selah,
A careful reading of the book shows us that Dr. Boyd has claimed that a false history that he experiences spiritually is where he found the power to forgive. I have covered this on numerous times in previous postings. He may not use the term "false history," but that doesn't change the fact that he has imagined one. He does use the term, Reworking the Memory on page 121. It is "reworked" with false history. I am not making this up or exagerating. The term stands on its own and applies to false events created to "rework" the factual ones that were observed by his sisters. I am not stating that contemplating a memory in light of truth we now understand is either bad or wrong. This does not imply building a false one. Rebuilding a substitute memory which didn't happen (from any perspective except my imagination) and replacing this fictional substitute memory to bring healing to the real one - this is not resting in Christ. Dr. Boyd claims that it is (page 118 specifically, but the entire chapter 7). There is absolutely no support for this in scripture - NONE. I have repeatedly challenged anybody on this board, including Dr. Boyd, to defend a replacement false historical record as a source of freedom with scriptures and there have been no takers. It is man's ideas masquerading as resting in Christ. It is not "truth."
I claim that the spirit of Christ, which is the Spirit of Truth, does not lead us into truth through false historical events being experienced by our spirit. BUNK. The spirit of truth leads us into the truth of the gospel. We forgive abusive grandmothers because the true historical factual sins we have committed towards God, real sins, are monumnetal. In light of the magnitude of our historical sins towards Him, the small debt of sins committed against us by an abusive grandmother are insignificant. God purchased the forgiveness of our massive sins towards Him by His death. Because He has so freely forgiven our massive debt, we gratefully forgive the small debts of sin our grandmothers have towards us, real historical sins. This is the gospel. This is true historical fact that you can bank on and cling to in spite of everything that would indicate differently. This will bring eternal healing and eternal life.
This is not the Christ of Dr. Boyd's example. This is not the source of healing that is taught as "resting in Christ" in this book. This is why I can claim with certainty that the Christ of that example (pages 116-125) is a non-biblical Christ, a substitute Christ. If this "comfort" that Dr. Boyd has experienced leads him to believe in a Christ that leads to truth through false history, this is not a good gift. This is a "deluding influence" and false sign and will lead to someplace other than the kingdom of heaven. If only freeform "comfort" is used as the measure of "good gifts," are the healings of the shamans "good gifts" that are from God or are they bad gifts? If they lead one to believe in the teachings of the shamans, they are bad gifts drawing people into delusion.
Read the example that Dr. Boyd uses to find forgiveness on page 116-122. This is not the gospel, but fiction and false history that he is claiming is from God Himself.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/1/2004 1:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jo-Anne,
Your following statement would be true to someone in Eckankar or the New Age or a number of cults. "It only makes sense that if our minds have been profoundly affected by IMAGES of this world - that He can profoundly affect (heal these memories) us by replacing them with images that are at least as profound and teach us the truth about Him, about ourselves and about others - instead of believing a lie which is the deception of the world and of the enemy. Another thing to seriously consider is that these "anti-events" as you so call them...lead people to forgive others. Perhaps that is the most powerful effect of Holy Spirit inspired imagination - it enables the believer to understand and forgive and that in itself is transforming."The image that God gave us for healing is His Son, the visible image of the invisible God. He is not an imagination. The work He actually did on the cross by forgiving your sins is where the gospel promises men the power to forgive others. To come up with a false historical images to replace the historical one and find forgiveness IS NOT THE GOSPEL. It may be good human therapy, but it is not the word of God nor is it taught in the scriptures. For this to be claimed to be resting in Christ is wrong, dangerously wrong. Calling believing in a fictitious red plane as soothing - OK. Calling it resting in Christ is a lie, an attack on the gospel. You keep pointing to "results" as justification of your beliefs, even while you claim scripture as the highest authority. It isn't consistent. Just say you believe that it is only the results that matter, that what you perceive as "fruit" justifies finding comfort in a false historical event. This is what you believe. It just isn't the scriptures.
There are many religions in this world that give the same results that you offer. There are even miracles and signs that may be supernatural. According to your beliefs, the apparent freedom found there is as legitimate as the freedom found in the gospel. I disagree.
Spen,
The wonderful thing about tiggers (did I say that?) ... I mean believers is that "you're not the only one" and...we can experience unity in diversity.
I think this is why Paul said that he determined to do naught but preach the gospel, simply and clearly (Christ crucified) because he knew what we would do to each other.
I accept your disagreement. I disagree with you. But what I really think is happening is that we do not understand each other. I have no part in New Age or Eckankar or... I wholeheartedly agree that scripture is the final authority and that Jesus Christ has the final say. I agree with Him. I agree with scripture. Obviously I see something you don't but in the eternal scheme of things...what really matters in how we love Him and love others.
Amen?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 5/1/2004 3:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
[quote]
I accept your disagreement. I disagree with you. But what I really think is happening is that we do not understand each other. I have no part in New Age or Eckankar or... I wholeheartedly agree that scripture is the final authority and that Jesus Christ has the final say. I agree with Him. I agree with scripture. Obviously I see something you don't but in the eternal scheme of things...what really matters in how we love Him and love others.
Amen?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Ditto! Amen.
Spen, I think Jo-Anne is right. I have a lot to say about this book because I use the same techniques at work - counseling others. In fact, that is probably why I jumped on this thread in the first place. Now, due to my emotional attachment from seeing many people healed through experiences similar to Dr. Boyd's, I find myself unable to argue nicely... (sorry) Every time I try to respond - I have to erase it because it starts to sound like I'm trying to win something. I don't want to do that. There is nothing to win or lose here. If you are seeking personal resolve, I'd be happy to wrestle with the book fairly via email. If not, then I suggest you just burn your copy (or better, send it to me!) and let God deal with the rest of us as He sees fit.
Thanks in advance for your understanding.
Blessings and Love,
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/1/2004 4:24 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Spen,
This may sound like a strange question. It's definitely not very theological, but it is sincere. Are you open to continuing to try to sort through the misunderstanding? (Oh, and, do you consider visions and dreams to be "anti-events?")
Sinceremente,
Jo-Anne 
Jo-Anne,
I would consider dreams and visions to be dreams and visions. They may or may not be "inspired" and may involve any wierd idea or concept that may be found in a dream or a vision. I consider an imagined recreation of an actual historical record replacing a factual historical record as an anti-event. It is a substitute event that is offered to be experienced instead of the real and factual one in our memory. It is not simply history from a different perspective. It is altered history, a substitute anti-history. Men may imagine and experience dreams and visions that alter or replace the historical record or simply create a non-existent record altogether. We call this "fiction" if we don't claim it to be inspired. Fiction is not a sin. Altering a historical record for the fun of it or creating "what if" scenarios - this is not a sin. It may be a literary exercise.
However, to claim that false historical records are "inspired by the Holy Spirit," that they are "resting in Christ," and that experiencing them is where we find healing and the power to forgive - this is a sin. It is a sin because it is claiming something in the name of God that is not true in scriptures. The Spirit of Truth does not inspire the false so that we can experience it to know the truth.
Finding freedom in a fictional anti(substitute)-event it NOT the gospel and is NOT supported by scriptures. Illustrations, dreams, visions, and whatever other experience you may wish to name have content that can be compared with scriptures to discern whether they are from God or our own imagination. This is what we have done with the experience of Dr. Boyd and it was found wanting. It is false and not inspired by the Holy Spirit as is claimed. It is resting in a false "christ" one that leads us into false history to find freedom and only leaves us deluded.
Spen Lake
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 5/1/2004 6:04 PM (GMT -6) | | .
quote:
Jo-Anne wrote (to Spen):
I accept your disagreement. I disagree with you. But what I really think is happening is that we do not understand each other. I have no part in New Age or Eckankar or... I wholeheartedly agree that scripture is the final authority and that Jesus Christ has the final say. I agree with Him. I agree with scripture. Obviously I see something you don't but in the eternal scheme of things...what really matters in how we love Him and love others.
It's simply a matter of different "wiring."
Some people are visual; some are not.
Spen appears to be very concrete in his method of deciphering the world around him.
i.e., His learning style is not "visual."
I could suggest a book or two that may help, but......
.
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/1/2004 9:31 PM (GMT -6) | |
(Spen) I would consider dreams and visions to be dreams and visions. They may or may not be "inspired" and may involve any wierd idea or concept that may be found in a dream or a vision. I consider an imagined recreation of an actual historical record replacing a factual historical record as an anti-event.
(Jo-Anne) Spen, if it were JUST an IMAGINED event...then YES, I would agree with you. But...we are not talking about just an imagined event...we are talking about the power of the Holy Spirit as we surrender our thoughts and imagination to Him alone and allow Him to take a memory (a painful one) and heal it.
(Spen) It is a substitute event that is offered to be experienced instead of the real and factual one in our memory. It is not simply history from a different perspective. It is altered history, a substitute anti-history.
(Jo-Anne) This vision that was inspired by the Holy Spirit does not change what happened. It happened and is remembered as an actual event ... BUT, what it does do is inspire the believer to forgive the perpetrator and in forgiveness, the victim finds healing. That is biblical. ALSO, the only sense that it substitutes is in bringing healing to a painful event. It substitutes healing for pain. Jesus was the substitute for our sin (it should have been us on that cross).
(Jo-Anne) You said "It is not simply history from a different perspective." Ah, but it is (in a sense of being an event that is subjective and inspired by the Holy Spirit. Experiences, whether subjective or objective, become history after they happen. They don't replace history. They add to it and become part of our spiritual journey.
(Spen) Men may imagine and experience dreams and visions that alter or replace the historical record or simply create a non-existent record altogether. We call this "fiction" if we don't claim it to be inspired.
(Jo-Anne) Spen, you said it yourself..."We call this "fiction" if we don't claim it to be inspired." Dr Boyd claims it to be inspired (his vision), and so was mine. I was walking and talking with a friend about this on Thursday (got a killer of a sunburn) and she understood completely. She is going to Israel to minister to Jewish people in June. She agreed. We, in our Western civilization, have been taught to mistrust our mind, our imagination. The enemy uses our minds to deceive us and wound us. He's good at it. But the Holy Spirit emphasizes transformation by the renewing of our minds and by bringing every thought captive. Once while praying in front of a Lake (eyes open), I imagined that Jesus would come walking toward me on the lake through the mist. I had my eyes open, but this was so real that I strained to see him. That was a defining time in my walk with God. Why do we feel it necessary to limit what the spirit wants to do in our lives.
(Jo-Anne) Spen, if you had a child who was sexually abused, would you want the Holy Spirit to give that child a vision that would not only heal, but transform their life? Sure, it wouldn't change history...EXCEPT that in adding to that child's history a non-fictional, Holy Spirit inspired event, history would be altered to include a life changing experience.
(Spen) Fiction is not a sin.
(Jo-Anne) Except we're not talking about fiction.
(Spen) However, to claim that false historical records are "inspired by the Holy Spirit," that they are "resting in Christ," and that experiencing them is where we find healing and the power to forgive - this is a sin.
(Jo-Anne) You are misunderstanding the book and what it is advocating. Also, Dr Boyd states that there is no formula. God works differently in the life of each believer. Spen, it is as much a sin to call something that the Holy Spirit has done sin as it is to call something He hasn't done sin.
(Spen) "It is a sin because it is claiming something in the name of God that is not true in scriptures. The Spirit of Truth does not inspire the false so that we can experience it to know the truth."
(Jo-Anne) You're right. He inspires the true. He is our way, our truth and our life. He is able to do what is needed to accomplish healing - if we want Him to.
(Spen) Finding freedom in a fictional anti(substitute)-event it NOT the gospel and is NOT supported by scriptures.
(Jo-Anne) The gospel is good news and healing is good news - especially healing found in a non-fictional, Holy Spirit inspired event.
(Spen) This is what we have done with the experience of Dr. Boyd and it was found wanting. It is false and not inspired by the Holy Spirit as is claimed. It is resting in a false "christ" one that leads us into false history to find freedom and only leaves us deluded.
(Jo-Anne) Spen...look at what you have said just above very carefully and tell me that you are not putting yourself in a place of judgment? What you are saying is seriously maligning the healing, transforming work that the Holy Spirit has accomplished in Dr Boyd's life, not to mention the lives of countless others. There is something wrong, IMHO, when you can not rejoice in the healing that the Holy Spirit has brought about. I thank God for what He did, in Dr Boyd's life and in my own experience that was accomplished through prayer. To say that Dr Boyd is resting in "a false Christ" is in my mind slanderous. This is a brother in Christ who desires nothing less than to see lives transformed into the image of God and was vulnerable enough to share his own healing. The book is inspiring and courageous.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/2/2004 2:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne,
(Jo-Anne) This vision that was inspired by the Holy Spirit does not change what happened. It happened and is remembered as an actual event ... BUT, what it does do is inspire the believer to forgive the perpetrator and in forgiveness, the victim finds healing. That is biblical. ALSO, the only sense that it substitutes is in bringing healing to a painful event. It substitutes healing for pain. Jesus was the substitute for our sin (it should have been us on that cross). You are substituting a false memory for a true one and calling it the Holy Spirit. Then you equate this somehow with Jesus being a substitute for our sin. It is NOT biblical to inspire a believer to forgiveness through a false event.
You have a warm fuzzy concept that isn't biblical. Support your position that God leads us to healing and freedom through a false historical event. A vision or spiritual experience on its own does not qualify. I have stated that before. Show us one time where teh Spirit of Truth leads us to experience the false to find the truth. It isn't there.
You have evolved in your argument to claim that the event is true because it is inspired by the Holy Spirit. You claim it is insprired by the Holy Spirit because it brings comfort. The events of the Dali Lama and occultists also bring comfort. These people, New Agers, claim that they are inspired by the Hoy Spirit. Jose Silva claims to have Jesus and Mary as his spirit guides. Based on your reasoning, all of this is true. It may be conforting to you but it is not scriptural and thus, it contradicts your claim that you belive that scripture is the greatest authority. It would be better if you simply admitted that you believe it to be inspired because you think it works. That would be honest. But, then you would have to relinquish your calim that the scriptures are the highest authority.
Your arguments are ultimately circular. You claim it is inspired by the Holy Spirit. He has inspired a false historical event. Therefore the event is good because I claim that the Holy Spirit inspired it. The content of the event itself, not just the results need to be caompared with the standard you have declared to be authoritative. Go and search and look and find support for your beliefs there.
I am not making slanderous remarks concerning Dr. Boyd's substitute "Christ" because the "Christ" of his example is not scriptural.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/2/2004 2:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jo-Anne,
(Jo-Anne) This vision that was inspired by the Holy Spirit does not change what happened. It happened and is remembered as an actual event ... BUT, what it does do is inspire the believer to forgive the perpetrator and in forgiveness, the victim finds healing. That is biblical. ALSO, the only sense that it substitutes is in bringing healing to a painful event. It substitutes healing for pain. Jesus was the substitute for our sin (it should have been us on that cross). You are substituting a false memory for a true one and calling it the Holy Spirit. Then you equate this somehow with Jesus being a substitute for our sin. It is NOT biblical to inspire a believer to forgiveness through a false event.
You have a warm fuzzy concept that isn't biblical. Support your position that God leads us to healing and freedom through a false historical event. A vision or spiritual experience on its own does not qualify. I have stated that before. Show us one time where teh Spirit of Truth leads us to experience the false to find the truth. It isn't there.
You have evolved in your argument to claim that the event is true because it is inspired by the Holy Spirit. You claim it is insprired by the Holy Spirit because it brings comfort. The events of the Dali Lama and occultists also bring comfort. These people, New Agers, claim that they are inspired by the Hoy Spirit. Jose Silva claims to have Jesus and Mary as his spirit guides. Based on your reasoning, all of this is true. It may be conforting to you but it is not scriptural and thus, it contradicts your claim that you belive that scripture is the greatest authority. It would be better if you simply admitted that you believe it to be inspired because you think it works. That would be honest. But, then you would have to relinquish your calim that the scriptures are the highest authority.
Your arguments are ultimately circular. You claim it is inspired by the Holy Spirit. He has inspired a false historical event. Therefore the event is good because I claim that the Holy Spirit inspired it. The content of the event itself, not just the results need to be caompared with the standard you have declared to be authoritative. Go and search and look and find support for your beliefs there.
I am not making slanderous remarks concerning Dr. Boyd's substitute "Christ" because the "Christ" of his example is not scriptural.
Spen,
Thanks for your response. Some of my "arguments" if you can call them that may indeed be circular. I'm not a theologian.
I do not believe that a vision inspired by the Holy Spirit during prayer is false unless it contradicts the Word of God and the picture of the Father that we see in Jesus Christ. I guess that's where I'm coming from Spen. I do believe scripture has the final authority and Jesus Christ has the final say.
I also believe we only see in part and someday we will be astounded by what we learn about who He is and who we really are in Him.
I guess I will never agree with you and I don't need to.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 5/2/2004 2:49 PM (GMT -6) | | Amen. Isn't it beautiful when we can agree to disagree and yet all be following our Saviour and Lord!
I think Mayflower is on to something BIG with the differece in wiring.
SpenLake, I would be interested to learn how you achieve forgiveness and healing from past wounds in your life. I believe it would be helpful for me in working with people who are wired differently. You are NOT alone. | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 5/3/2004 7:23 AM (GMT -6) | | History has not been changed. No need to freak out. 
Boyd doesn't change history, he changes the meaning of an event. He replaces a lie with the truth. End of story.
Instead of fetishsizing scripture, it is a tool to lead us to a real, live, relationship with Jesus. Our life is in the Son, not in fetishsizing scripture.
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;"
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 5/3/2004 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
History has not been changed. No need to freak out.
Boyd doesn't change history, he changes the meaning of an event. He replaces a lie with the truth. End of story.
Instead of fetishsizing scripture, it is a tool to lead us to a real, live, relationship with Jesus. Our life is in the Son, not in fetishsizing scripture.
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;"
"Fetishsizing" Scripture. I like that.
Why don't we just use the term that Doc uses; "Reworking the Memory" (pg
121-122)? This "anti-event" stuff is part of a spin tactic, used to take Dr.
Boyd's writing out of context. Doc never claims to erase a historical event
from his past. He simply reflects on how he was blinded by the evil that
hurt him and allows the Holy Spirit to heal those wounds. The following
scripture supports this:
2 Cor. 3:16-18 (NLT)
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, then the veil is taken away. [17] Now, the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, he gives freedom. [18] And all of us have had that veil removed so that we can be mirrors that brightly reflect the glory of the Lord. And as the Spirit of the Lord works within us, we become more and more like him and reflect his glory even more.
Peace,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 5/3/2004 9:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
History has not been changed. No need to freak out.
Boyd doesn't change history, he changes the meaning of an event. He replaces a lie with the truth. End of story.
Instead of fetishsizing scripture, it is a tool to lead us to a real, live, relationship with Jesus. Our life is in the Son, not in fetishsizing scripture.
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;"
"Fetishsizing" Scripture. I like that.
Why don't we just use the term that Doc uses; "Reworking the Memory" (pg 121-122)? This "anti-event" stuff is part of a spin tactic, used to take Dr. Boyd's writing out of context. Doc never claims to erase a historical event from his past. He simply reflects on how he was blinded by the evil that hurt him and allows the Holy Spirit to heal those wounds. The following scripture supports this:
2 Cor. 3:16-18 (NLT)
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, then the veil is taken away. [17] Now, the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, he gives freedom. [18] And all of us have had that veil removed so that we can be mirrors that brightly reflect the glory of the Lord. And as the Spirit of the Lord works within us, we become more and more like him and reflect his glory even more.
Peace,
Mark
Catchy term; "fetishsizing." Though I'm not sure I understand it totally. I'd forgotten about the phrase "reworking the memory." Thanks for reminding me Mark.
God Bless!
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 5/4/2004 2:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Sisters of Cain
History has not been changed. No need to freak out.
Boyd doesn't change history, he changes the meaning of an event. He replaces a lie with the truth. End of story.
Instead of fetishsizing scripture, it is a tool to lead us to a real, live, relationship with Jesus. Our life is in the Son, not in fetishsizing scripture.
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;"
"Fetishsizing" Scripture. I like that.
Why don't we just use the term that Doc uses; "Reworking the Memory" (pg 121-122)? This "anti-event" stuff is part of a spin tactic, used to take Dr. Boyd's writing out of context. Doc never claims to erase a historical event from his past. He simply reflects on how he was blinded by the evil that hurt him and allows the Holy Spirit to heal those wounds. The following scripture supports this:
2 Cor. 3:16-18 (NLT)
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, then the veil is taken away. [17] Now, the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, he gives freedom. [18] And all of us have had that veil removed so that we can be mirrors that brightly reflect the glory of the Lord. And as the Spirit of the Lord works within us, we become more and more like him and reflect his glory even more.
Peace,
Mark
Catchy term; "fetishsizing." Though I'm not sure I understand it totally. I'd forgotten about the phrase "reworking the memory." Thanks for reminding me Mark.
God Bless!
Jo-Anne
Jo-Anne, Mark
Reworking a memory with a false portrayal of what actually happened is NOT taking Dr. Boyd's comments out of context. That IS the context. That is his own example of what the exercise he calls "resting in Christ" consists of. It seems that the black and white of the words of his book isn't clear to you. I accuse him of reworking memories using what he claims are "spirit-inspired" events that never happened and that are a false portrayal of the event itself. It is not talking about evil but about planes that never existed and conversations that never happened. Mark says, "Doc never claims to erase a historical event from his past. He simply reflects on how he was blinded by the evil that hurt him and allows the Holy Spirit to heal those wounds." The "evil" that blinded him was a factual event and the "Holy Spirit healing" was a false portrayal of the event, not viewing history from a different perspective. Your scripture is utterly misapplied when you claim that the glory of the Lord is to be founf in false portrayals of history. You now have, "you shall know the false and the false shall set you free." Freedom is found in knowing the truth, brought by the Spirit of Truth. When Dr. Boyd realizes that the sins committed by his grandmother towards him are miniscule compared to the sins that he has committed towards God, and God forgave his sins through His death on the cross, this truth will free him to forgive the small debt of his abusive grandmother. This, the gospel, is not found or mentioned in the "resting in Christ" described by Dr. Boyd.
He has found heling in delusion.
Spen Lake
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