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spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 4/19/2004 7:38 AM (GMT -6)

For those of you who are new, please look at the other threads under mysticism and "Seeing is Believing" in the Board and OV forums.

I want to express my appreciation to Saintpaulrez for her observations and courage to address the pain and grief she and others experienced as the fruit of these teachings. I also want to sincerely thank those of this discussion board for their help in solidifying the strong parts of my arguments and making the weaker ones clearer. It has been very helpful and enabled me to hone the arguments which will be most effective to explain why this teaching is damaging. The responses that strayed from the subject into unsupported speculations concerning me or my motives helped highlight to me where the arguments were strongest and where they should be pursued.

It continues to amaze me the extent this board will go to defend a weak point. If truth were truly the main concern this would be different and the board would act differently. There are obviously some exceptions, but I believe that the outside witness of Saintpaulrez exposed real issues of concern. I found it amusing and amazing that there is a pro-OV philosopher Alan Rhoda that states that if certain premises of the logic of indterminancy are true, then the entire belief of the OV must be false and this is known by the OV elite.

quote:
Alan says: As far as I can see, this argument is deductively valid. Moreover, all of the premises seem quite plausible. The conclusion, however, is a direct denial of the central tenet of open theism. So either open theism is false, or there is a faulty assumption in the argument. If there is a faulty assumption it would have to lie in one of the independent premises, namely (1), (2), (4), (5), (6), (9), or (10). But it is far from obvious which premise, if any, can be plausibly denied.

If this is what is acknowledged by the OV elite, that they have yet to plug a potentially fatal hole, then the STRONG assertions that I have read here are just so much bluffing. It is too strong a defense to make for a conclusion that has such an open and exposed weakness left unanswered. This insecurity for ideas that are still “at risk” helps explain the “chip on the shoulder” mentality and how weak the OV actually is. Perhaps OVers cannot conceive of this, but to the rest of us it becomes more apparent. I believe that an objective review of the written record of this board goes far in supporting the observations of Saintpaulrez, when she states that OVers don’t really have as much a concern regarding the truth as they do their feelings, impressions, and personal prejudices about a god of their own making. This site documents committed OVers who refuse to believe in a god who would keep them single. We have others who refuse to believe in a God that would allow slavery and not call it sinful. We have others who refuse to believe in a god that casts deceiving Satan to earth. This partial overview is in stark contrast to the claim that OV believes in the God of scripture. In examining this site, we find much that supports Saintpaulrez’ conviction that OV really does promote a god of their imaginations.

This brings me to the last point and the one that I have spent the most time interacting with this board – “Seeing is Believing.” I have brought up a single point with a challenge that provokes personal attacks but continues to be ignored. The silence is deafening but speaks volumes. “Seeing is Believing,” is a must read for this board in that it provides spiritual exercises to meet with the god you’ve each been imagining, an opportunity to see him face to face. You can find gods that won’t let one be single, or express sovereignty over deceitful spirits. You can experience your “truth” though spirit inspired anti-events (substitute events), revel with your anti-christ (substitute Christ) and find extreme comfort in your spirit inspired delusion. Each of you can meet your imagined god face to face and find sincere, heart warming, comforting delusion to escape the painful tribulations and memories of this evil world. Based on the claims that are made there by your doctor, you will find also power to forgive and enter into the rest of your own christ as well. This is your gospel.

I hope that such shocking words impact your heads and hearts. This is what you risk losing in your responding to the challenge I have made to you. There has still not been one from this board that has presented scriptural support that God provides:
- spiritual truth
- the power of forgiveness
- healing
- and experiencing God Himself
through fictional anti-events inspired by the Holy Spirit. Your god and the path to him taught to you by your doctor hangs in the balance. Stand up and support it with scriptures like a man (woman) or repent and find freedom in the true gospel where forgiveness is experienced in believing the work of THE Christ on the cross. This experience of our own sins being truly forgiven enables us to forgive even cruel grandmothers and the pain they caused us. Those who believe in the true gospel have no need for fictitious anti-events for our freedom and forgiveness.

Spen Lake

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/19/2004 8:34 AM (GMT -6)

Ignoring the fact that you came here with an ax to grind and started trashing the book two weeks before you started reading it (I checked, two weeks after you started trashing it you were on page 11, the first page of the Introduction), let's start with your own "anti-event".

You linked the end of the flood and it's shortening of years to 120 with the end of the Nephilim/giants. Yet I showed you how one thousand, three hundred and sixty five years after the flood, David killed Goliath, the giant. (what does "goliath" mean, spenlake?)

So first, explain your fictional, anti-event.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 4/19/2004 9:19 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika

Ignoring the fact that you came here with an ax to grind and started trashing the book two weeks before you started reading it (I checked, two weeks after you started trashing it you were on page 11, the first page of the Introduction), let's start with your own "anti-event".

You linked the end of the flood and it's shortening of years to 120 with the end of the Nephilim/giants. Yet I showed you how one thousand, three hundred and sixty five years after the flood, David killed Goliath, the giant. (what does "goliath" mean, spenlake?)

So first, explain your fictional, anti-event.

Thank you, Laika. I appreciate yor prompt response.

Any takers?

Spen Lake

feelinahole
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 4/19/2004 9:31 AM (GMT -6)

Spen: regardless of whether or not how far an open theist will go to defend a weak point, it should be stated AGAIN (and has been stated to you over and over again) that "Seeing is Believing," has nothing to do with open theism. And before you critise open theists for going to so far, you might want to look in the mirror and ask yourself why you are so obsessed with this one book. Is this the only way you can attack open theism? Are you doing a service or a disservice to the church with your obsession? Think about it...a long while...
Does it amaze how far they will go or does it amaze you that others won't agree with you...
"If truth were the main concern, this different," apparently truth means agreeing with you.

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/19/2004 9:32 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake

quote:
Originally posted by Laika

Ignoring the fact that you came here with an ax to grind and started trashing the book two weeks before you started reading it (I checked, two weeks after you started trashing it you were on page 11, the first page of the Introduction), let's start with your own "anti-event".

You linked the end of the flood and it's shortening of years to 120 with the end of the Nephilim/giants. Yet I showed you how one thousand, three hundred and sixty five years after the flood, David killed Goliath, the giant. (what does "goliath" mean, spenlake?)

So first, explain your fictional, anti-event.

Thank you, Laika. I think that you proved my point.

Any takers?

For explaining your false "anti-event"? No, that's your job.

Secondly, here's another of your false, "anti-events" that needs explaining:

you quote Boyd, page 30:

quote:
On page 30 Dr. Boyd claims, "It is important to see that our ongoing problem with sin, despite our new identity in Christ is not really with our behavior. This is the symptom of the problem but not the problem itself....More specifically the problem lies in how we view ourselves, how we define ourselves, how we experience ourselves, and thus how we live out our identity in Christ."

In this passage we see that Dr. Boyd eliminates sin as our root problem and tells us the problem needing fixing is how we experience ourselves to live out our identity in Christ. Thus, if we ultimately deal with sin (its root) through these exercises, which is what he is claiming, he is calling it the gospel. It is our answer to sin.

Yet, Boyd is NOT eliminating sin as the problem, he's changing the problem "with sin" from our behavior to how we view ourselves.

Saying Boyd "elminates sin as the problem" is another of your false, "anti-events" that needs explaining.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

feelinahole
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 4/19/2004 9:37 AM (GMT -6)

There's an OV elite!? Why wasn't I told about this Eyebrow

? Where do I go to join? And how do YOU, Spen, know about it when you obviously are not a part of it? Right Wing COnspiraries LIVE!

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 4/19/2004 9:45 AM (GMT -6)

Laika,

quote:
Laika says: Yet, Boyd is NOT eliminating sin as the problem, he's changing the problem "with sin" from our behavior to how we view ourselves.

Saying Boyd "elminates sin as the problem" is another of your false, "anti-events" that needs explaining.

I understand your concern, but this post was for a specific topic, which you are failing to address. It is the bold at the bottom which is looking for scriptural support of the spirit-inspired anit-event.

Spen Lake

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/19/2004 9:47 AM (GMT -6)

Third, in the story where Boyd's grandmother calls him "bad", a blanket condemnation, not tied to any specific action, you say:

quote:

The grandmother called him a "bad boy." You call this action making him "feel" completely worthless. The spiritual "Jesus" of Dr. Boyd encourages Dr. Boyd to call his grandmother a "bad grandmother." How is this different?

But you shortened the quote to support your point. The full quote was:

"You're a bad grandma for doing this to me."

So the grandmother was blanket condemning him, calling him bad without being specific but Boyd
tied grandmother's badness to a specific event. In essence, 'you did this wrong', NOT you are just bad. Everyone knows you don't tell anyone they are just plain bad, but you tell them what specific thing they did bad. You give worth to the individual yet condemn their action.

So this is the third false, "anti-event", you'll have to explain. Shortening a quote to make your point, tsk, tsk.

http://www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3141&whichpage=2

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/19/2004 9:49 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
this post was for a specific topic, which you are failing to address. It is the bold at the bottom which is looking for scriptural support of the spirit-inspired anit-event.

Maybe we'll use the same scriptural support as you'll use to support your false, "anti-events". Big Smile

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 4/19/2004 9:51 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole

There's an OV elite!? Why wasn't I told about this? Where do I go to join? And how do YOU, Spen, know about it when you obviously are not a part of it? Right Wing COnspiraries LIVE!

Great point, Feelin. I went to far and should have qualified this to those who closely follow the OV discussion with Dr. Boyd. There have been several references mode to others outside of this community, and my assertion wasn't very clear. I based this on the fact that Br. Boyd himself and his collaborators were mentioned in the thread and the responses to the issue of inderminency. Sorry, perhaps I have now just shattered some conspiracy, oh well. In any case, even you would agree they were far more "elite" than me on the issue.

Spen Lake

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/19/2004 11:40 AM (GMT -6)

Fourth, I pointed out to you, even quoted it, that Boyd was changing the meaning of the event with granny, NOT the actual event. (as if, only calvinists can go back in time to change some past event)

Boyd was exchanging the lie of granny's for the truth, not changing the event.

The fourth, so far, of spenlake's false, "anti-events".

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/19/2004 11:50 AM (GMT -6)

Genesis 28:
10 Then Jacob departed from Beersheba and went toward Haran.
11 He came to a certain place and spent the night there, because the sun had set; and he took one of the stones of the place and put it under his head, and lay down in that place.
12 He had a dream, and behold, a ladder was set on the earth with its top reaching to heaven; and behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said, "I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants.
14 "Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
15 "Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you."
16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it."
17 He was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven."
18 So Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on its top.
19 He called the name of that place Bethel; however, previously the name of the city had been Luz.
20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear,
21 and I return to my father's house in safety, then the LORD will be my God.
22 "This stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God's house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You."

A dream about a ladder, NOT an actual ladder to heaven. Qualifies as a false, "anti-event" under Rules of the Purple Nike Event Test.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/19/2004 11:58 AM (GMT -6)

Daniel 2:
16 So Daniel went in and requested of the king that he would give him time, in order that he might declare the interpretation to the king.
17 Then Daniel went to his house and informed his friends, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, about the matter,
18 so that they might request compassion from the God of heaven concerning this mystery, so that Daniel and his friends would not be destroyed with the rest of the wise men of Babylon.

Daniel prepares to receive the interpretation from God via a dream!!!

19 Then the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven;
20 Daniel said,
"Let the name of God be blessed forever and ever,
For wisdom and power belong to Him.
21 "It is He who changes the times and the epochs;
He removes kings and establishes kings;
He gives wisdom to wise men
And knowledge to men of understanding.
22 "It is He who reveals the profound and hidden things;
He knows what is in the darkness,
And the light dwells with Him.
23 "To You, O God of my fathers, I give thanks and praise,
For You have given me wisdom and power;
Even now You have made known to me what we requested of You,
For You have made known to us the king's matter."

Daniel requested an interpretation from God and got ready for it's revelation, by going to sleep.

The dream involved an imaginery statue, not a real one. Again, this dream also qualifies as a false, "anti-event" under the Rules of the Purple Nike Event Test.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/19/2004 12:04 PM (GMT -6)

Acts 2:
16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.

dreams, visions, prophesy, men AND women.....

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/19/2004 12:19 PM (GMT -6)

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 4/19/2004 12:20 PM (GMT -6)

Laika,

None of your passages qualifies as a fictional anti-event. An anti-event is a spirit-inspired creation that is contrary to the real factual event witnessed by men. I could even help you a little with a stronger argument than yours. Look at the narrative with Elisha when Samaria was surrounded by the king of Aram in 2 Kings 6:17. God, by revelation revealed the "complete picture of truth" that the mountain was actually surrounded by chariots of fire and Elisha was in no danger, even though the natural eyes might have seen it that way. This wasn't a false or fictional anti-event. It didn't rewrite the facts of the objective record.

To even help you further I can provide an example where the Lord did something in magnifying the objective reality or giving false information to the enemies. It was also in 2 Kings. In 2 Kings 7:6, "For the Lord had caused the army of the Arameans to hear a sound of chariots and a sound of horses, even the sound of a great army, so that they said to one another, “Behold, the king of Israel has hired against us the kings of the Hittites and the kings of the Egyptians, to come upon us.” Therefore they arose and fled in the twilight, and left their tents and their horses and their donkeys, even the camp just as it was, and fled for their life." This was only brought for a judgment on the enemies of God. This is a good Old Testament example of 2 Thess 2:11 in which the God sends delusion as judgment from God on those who didn't love the truth and were enemies of God. It would be similar to God sending a deceiving spirit to deceive wicked Ahab in 1 Kings 22.

I appreciate your efforts, Laika.

Spen Lake

JET
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397

Posted 4/19/2004 12:30 PM (GMT -6)

Spenlake,

I have skimmed many of your posts regarding your concerns with Boyd's recent book. I am sorry I do not have time to read all of them. I have not finished Doc's book yet, either. However, I want to throw out this idea for what its worth (probably not much). Sorry if its already been covered.

It seems to me that an argument could be made that Boyd's methodology is LESS mystical and MORE NATURALISTIC than Calvin and the Reformers. If my understanding is correct, for Calvin, the Word speaks to us via, not reason ultimately, but the "internal witness of the Holy Spirit" (sounds kind of mystical). Boyd is taking this emphasis and adding a NATURALISTIC component--that is, how the mind works (i.e., nueroscience).

Nueroscience is . . . well, . . . science. Hardly a mystical approach. If science (not to mention our everyday experience) confirms that our minds think with images, then why not apply this to our prayer life?

Hmmm?

Thanks and God Bless,

JET

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 4/19/2004 1:12 PM (GMT -6)

Jet,

I personally don't find the person of Calvin appealing. His views on civil/spiritual governments were confused and destructive. I don't believe that the OV resolves much, in any case, but that is a different thread. This thread concerns the gospel and the lack of scriptural proof regarding Holy Spirit inspiring fictional anti-events in which Christians experience God face to face, are healed, find the power to forgive and rest in Christ. So far, the scriptural basis to support the claims of Dr. Boyd is sadly lacking. Let us return to the gospel and leave these silly ideas called exercises of "resting in Christ" behind.

Spen Lake

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/19/2004 1:23 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake

Laika,

Neither of your passages qualifies as a fictional anti-event.

Jacob imagines a ladder, there's really no ladder.
Boyd imagines a toy airplane, there's really no toy airplane.

I see no difference.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/19/2004 1:25 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
leave these silly ideas called exercises of "resting in Christ" behind.

Matthew 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Except for you spenlake, back on your head."

Big Smile

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/19/2004 1:28 PM (GMT -6)

You do realize, "false anti-event" and "fictional anti-event" are both double negatives?

"false event"
"anti-event"
"fictional event"

are what you're fishing for

Though "anti-event" seems rather, dodgy.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 4/19/2004 1:43 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake

Laika,

Neither of your passages qualifies as a fictional anti-event.

Jacob imagines a ladder, there's really no ladder.
Boyd imagines a toy airplane, there's really no toy airplane.

I see no difference.

Genesis 28:12, "He had a dream, and behold, a ladder was set on the earth with its top reaching to heaven; and behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And behold, the LORD stood above it and said, “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants. “Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. “Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, “Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it.” He was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”"

This was not a fictional anti-event. This dream was not a recreation of some past traumatic event, but a revelation of a current one, very current. That this revelation was true is proven by the fulfillment of the promise God made, especially at a difficult time in Jacob's life. This is also confirmed in Genesis 35:1, "Then God said to Jacob, “Arise, go up to Bethel and live there, and make an altar there to God, who appeared to you when you fled from your brother Esau.”" It is also confirmed in Hosea 12:4, "He found Him at Bethel and there He spoke with us, even the LORD, the God of hosts, the LORD is His name." The experience and the promise were true events although the promise was given in a dream or as a revelation. Revelations are not phony or false reconstructions of history. That would be the book of Mormon.

Mormon would be another excellent example of a fictional anti-event, another testimony of Jesus Christ. We actually see many similarities with why the Mormon's believe their book is God's inspired word and why spirit-inspired anti-events should be believed. The Mormons will ask you to try it, read the book, and you will feel a burning in your bosom that proves it is true. The basis for faith is their feelings and internal discernment. The factual record of historical events is unnecessary and even irrelevant. They are satisfied because they perceive that "it works." They use the name of Jesus, they claim to have the Holy Spirit, and they are very mystical.

I think that we will find that if you can support Dr. Boyd's fictional anti-event with scriptures, these same scriptures would also support the book of Mormon.

Love you Laika, and appreciate your help.

Spen Lake

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 4/19/2004 8:02 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laika

Genesis 28:
10 Then Jacob departed from Beersheba and went toward Haran.
11 He came to a certain place and spent the night there, because the sun had set; and he took one of the stones of the place and put it under his head, and lay down in that place.
12 He had a dream, and behold, a ladder was set on the earth with its top reaching to heaven; and behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said, "I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants.
14 "Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
15 "Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you."
16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it."
17 He was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven."
18 So Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on its top.
19 He called the name of that place Bethel; however, previously the name of the city had been Luz.
20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear,
21 and I return to my father's house in safety, then the LORD will be my God.
22 "This stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God's house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You."

A dream about a ladder, NOT an actual ladder to heaven. Qualifies as a false, "anti-event" under Rules of the Purple Nike Event Test.

True! How many Holy Spirit inspired visions can we name?! What are the Rules of the Purple Nike Even Test? I want to make sure they qualify before I start listing them. I don't think they would class as fiction though...that would put the whole canon into question!

Spen, why do you discount Holy Spirit inspired events now? It is the same Holy Spirit. Don't you think this thinking..."limits" the Holy Spirit's activity in the life of the believer.

It's late and you might not think this makes sense...but I'm inspired. I'm just excited that Gregory Boyd might inspire believers to pray more...to experience a vital prayer life that will enable them to hear the Father and THAT will transform lives!

Nite and God Bless,
Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 4/20/2004 2:37 AM (GMT -6)

Jo-Anne,

You miss the point and are confusing a revelation or vision of the Spirit of Truth with a "false." If you take this passage to support the position of Dr. Boyd, then you and Laika are calling the ladder false or saying that it was not actually historically there. What makes you certain that the ladder was not actually there and historically true in the vision /dream of Jacob. It was a spiritual ladder that human eyes cannot see objectively. Jacob never claimed it to be a physical ladder that had historically been there at some point in time. I believe that it really was there and that the vision was true - thus it wasn't an anti-event. Jacob found comfort in the truth, not false-history. That it was true is supported by the facts that we observe in God fulfilling His promise given in the vision.

The revelations and visions that the Holy Spirit brings are not "re-engineered history." The communists and the Nazis changed and rewrote historical events into anti-events to support their purposes. This is NOT what is happening in "prophecy" or "revelations," or "visions" given by the Spirit of Truth. Peter's vision experienced in a trance was not "replacement history" concerning clean and unclean animals. In fact, it is actually based upon the words of the living man, Jesus, who declared all foods "clean" when He was with us in the flesh. Jesus also commanded Peter and the rest that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles.

quote:
Jo-Anne says: Spen, why do you discount Holy Spirit inspired events now? It is the same Holy Spirit. Don't you think this thinking..."limits" the Holy Spirit's activity in the life of the believer.

I am not saying that the Holy Spirit cannot or does not bring revelations or visions now. I believe that He does. I am saying the Spirit of Truth doesn't bring revelations that are "false" for us to find freedom, healing, forgiveness, and experience God face to face in. Neither does the scriptures, which gives me the authority to plead with those that find freedom in a spirit inspired anti-event to repent and return to the truth of the gospel.

Spen Lake

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 4/20/2004 2:58 AM (GMT -6)

spenlake, Jacob imagined a ladder that wasn't really there, it was a vision. This is no different than Boyd imagining a toy airplane that wasn't really there.

The prophet Joel prophecied that we will see visions and have dreams. Acts 2:17, Joel 2:28

Or are you claiming that Joel too, is a false prophet due to this prophecy NOT coming true?

But please continue, Don Quixote.

Nice linking to the Nazis, really works for me.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

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