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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 7/28/2003 2:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | I just took this quote from an article DLW posted on the "gay man defends..." thread about a guy getting a brain tumor removed and his behavior dramatically changed. Just to preface this, I am not trying to negate moral responsibility or sanctification or anything, but I'm just trying to think through the implications of the personality and the brain chemical structure that we are born with and how it plays out in our lives.
Here is the quote:
"This tells us something about being human doesn't it? Yadofsky (Dr. Stuart C. Yudofsky, Psychiatrist at Baylor)said. If one's actions are governed by how well the brain is working, does it mean we have less free will than we think?"
This qoute emphasizes something I've been struggling to understand. We have friends who are struggling with their teenager, soon to be adult. This child was difficult starting right after birth. He was raised in a Christian home with great parents who were really involved in his life. He was just a handful from day one, and now as he is moving into young adulthood and his problems have only increased. He is now into drugs and worse. Their other children are not following this course at all, and were much different as infants.
That's one example, and then I have more. What about the man my husband and I know who was depressed and rageful and was abusive towards his wife, he tried counseling...didn't change him, goes on medication for his depression and his rage melts away as the depression lifts. He now has a happy and peaceful marriage. Since medication does not help with character flaws, we now see that his rage was part of his chemical imbalance. He was counseled over and over about getting his "anger" under control.
When someone seems to be born with these imbalances that seem to affect every decision they make in life, how responsible are they? I think of the verse about "to whom much is given, much will be required..." How much will be required of them? Is it different than any other "handicap"? I'm not just talking here about just the obvious mental illnesses either.
How much of our lives are dictated by genetics? Brain chemicals? It's just hard for me to understand when the person just seems to have a rougher road cut out for them, and so many odds against them achieving a productive life when it involves genetics. It's like they were born without a chance to be anything different, barring a physical healing from the Lord.
Any thoughts? Sorry if this was garbled, I'm just typing as I am thinking it through.
Thanks,
Shell
p.s. If anyone who chooses to respnd could humor me and not bring the issue of homosexuality into my question here, I would very much appreciate it!!![:X]
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/28/2003 4:40 PM (GMT -6) | | I know moods change, I got drunk once, or well, more OK and did drugs, some, yeah, a lot, so that the mind function is definitely alterable by chemical imbalances, from birth, seems valid and being balanced through medication appears a reasonable recourse to follow, that is, pursue.
Disclaimer: In recognition of the limitations of my knowledge and of the tentative nature of my probable beliefs and opinions  ; such ought to lead me to a tolerance of those people holding beliefs different from mine. Instead of attacking the beliefs of others, I should strive to find better grounds for my own. And when I encounter conflicting testimonies, e.g. historians, I can only weigh all sides and form a belief, conjecture, guess, doubt, or disbelief, as the case seems to warrant.
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/28/2003 4:49 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Shell, I also read that same article - what you said about "to whom much is given, much is required" is a verse that I've quoted here before as well.
I think medical science has shown that much of a person's disposition, and therefore, actions, are determined by their genetic makeup and chemical imbalances. For example, I've thought of infants born with fetal alcohol syndrome. These kids don't have much of a chance - they can live a fairly normal life, but will be living with levels of retardation, agression, etc., but through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. The fault lies with the mother who drank herself silly throughout 9 months of pregnancy. The same could be said for children born addicted to drugs, etc. These people can and do take responsibility for their own actions, but their cognitive levels are undeniably affected for the worse. They don't have the same capacity as a "normal" child to make rational decisions.
These kinds of scenarios, along with the fact that where and when a person is born, and what kind of environment he or she is raised in, have untold effects on what that person will ultimately be like, is another reason why I don't believe in "free will." | | Back to Top | | |
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Leila
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 7/29/2003 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Shell. Thanks for bringing this up. This issue is very troubling to me and one that I think about a lot.
As RD stated, there are numerous cases where people's disposition can be linked to birth defects, chromosomal abnormalities, etc. which in turn effect one's intellect, personality -- their whole lot in life. Even sociopathic behavior has been shown to have genetic correlates.
Then there are more subtle cases, where people's culture, family, upbringing, and peers influence the person they become and the choices that they make. There's not one of us who was brought into this world as a blank slate and born into a vacuum. We are all products of our genetics and our environment.
But is this to say that all is determined? I don't know myself -- I'm still on the fence with this one. But at the least, I do believe that some people's wills are indeed so constrained by factors outside of their control that their choices in life are pretty limited, if they even exist.
But then does this mean that some people are not responsible for their actions? In our legal system, the answer is yes. We might ask if the person had the capacity to understand right from wrong, or had an irresistible impulse to commit the act. If so, society does not hold the person accountable and attempts rehabilitation. But what is the answer from a moral perspective?
This is where the passage of the Bible that you mentioned is key: to whom much is given, much will be required. From my limited human perspective, I can't conceive that God's judgment of us is not relative and based upon how much (or how little) we were given in this world.
Just my humble opinion... | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/29/2003 12:15 PM (GMT -6) | | I read a story about a man with a very un-integrated personality, resulting from satanic physical abuse in childhood.
He goes from extreems, from drawing very, very close to God, to being suicidal. Perhaps he will succeed some day. But he often succeeds in drawing close to God.
God's hands are ready to catch him. And the man telling the story (a priest, and an ethicist) is part of God's hands now. | | Back to Top | | |
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 7/29/2003 1:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
God's hands are ready to catch him. And the man telling the story (a priest, and an ethicist) is part of God's hands now.
Yes, I totally believe God works this way. I believe God uses the people around us to fulfill His will and to represent Christ in a very tangible way.
Depression or other conditions affecting the mind can definitely cause someone to feel completely separated from God.
shell | | Back to Top | | |
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 7/29/2003 2:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Leila, thanks for your response. You expressed so well the contraints around our free will when it comes to the position in life we are born into, and the genetic background we have come from etc...I have to run now but I would like to think about this some and post more later. Thanks. Shell
thanks for your response to RD. I'm still thinking.... | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/29/2003 7:01 PM (GMT -6) | | In moral decisions, we are responsible to the extent that we are free. Freedom ends where coercion begins. If a person holds a gun to your head and forces you to do something illegal, you are not held responsible for the act, the coercer is.
As to genetic defects, etc., I don't find anywhere in Scripture where a person is condemned because of, say, being born blind, retarded, or otherwise physically inept.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Leila
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 7/30/2003 3:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi John. The examples you cited seem to be the "easy" cases exemplifying the restrictions on our free will -- the gun to the head, mental retardation, etc. But what about the grayer areas?
Most of us are not born with blatant genetic defects that so obviously hinder our actions and thoughts, but we are born with a genetic makeup that does constrain our actions and thoughts -- although perhaps not to such an obvious extent.
What do you say about moral culpability in those examples -- say, a person whose world is so colored by the mask of depression? Is it even possible to truly discern whether some degree of coercion exists in more subtle cases to determine whether one's actions are truly free?
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/30/2003 7:13 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leila
What do you say about moral culpability in those examples -- say, a person whose world is so colored by the mask of depression? Is it even possible to truly discern whether some degree of coercion exists in more subtle cases to determine whether one's actions are truly free?
I know of no Scripture that condemns involuntary states of mind such as depression. Even Jesus was depressed at some points in his earthly life (Gethsemane, on the cross when feeling God-forsaken, etc.)
This realization, when I came to know it, was a great relief to me, as one who has suffered much from chronic depression (previously on Prozac for two years). While a depressed person might in fact do sinful things, and depression might in fact be an influence in one's decisions, ultimately the Bible only condemns that which is a voluntary transgression of a known divine law. I know of no other real way to define moral responsibility than the ability to choose between right and wrong.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/30/2003 7:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Care to revise some of your stated views on constitutional homosexuality, John?
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
I wish we didn't live in a world where buying and selling things (especially selling) seems to have become almost more important than either producing or using them.
C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 7/30/2003 7:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by DLW
Care to revise some of your stated views on constitutional homosexuality, John?
DLW, Now I'm going to sound like you ....and I never thought I would ask anyone this, but would you mind taking that question and possible response to a different thread...pretty please??? I requested that the issue of homosexuality not be brought into this thread if possible. I have made a personal decision at this time to not get involved in that topic right now...and it's a little hard if it's right in my face!
What do you think?
Shell
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 7/30/2003 7:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
p.s. If anyone who chooses to respnd could humor me and not bring the issue of homosexuality into my question here, I would very much appreciate it!!![:X]
This was on my very first post on this thread....if it's not viewed as a reasonable request to others...that's okay...I was just hoping. | | Back to Top | | |
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Leila
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 7/30/2003 8:25 AM (GMT -6) | | John -- I agree that the Bible doesn't condemn persons for being in an involuntary state such as depression, but what about those who commit actions that stem from the involuntary state? You said: quote:
ultimately the Bible only condemns that which is a voluntary transgression of a known divine law.
But the question becomes: can we humans really distinguish between involuntary and voluntary transgressions? Can't an involuntary state, like depression, greatly diminish one's free will, making their seemingly voluntary actions actually involuntary? | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/30/2003 9:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by DLW
Care to revise some of your stated views on constitutional homosexuality, John?
No, thank you. The fact that I may suffer from a genetic predisposition to depression in no way would excuse me sinning while depressed (i.e., physically harming myself or others, which in fact I have not done).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 7/30/2003 11:57 AM (GMT -6) | | I've struggled with depression pretty much all my life and finally went to counseling for about a year-and-a-half, during which time I also began taking medication. At the time it was Zoloft, but for the last couple of years I've been taking Celexa.
Anyway, from my own experience, I never had much motivation to do much of anything when I was so anxious and depressed (I have an anxiety order as well as O.C.D.) that I didn't have much of a life, and it was all I could do to just get through a day. To go to work, or to do some necessary chore or errand and even getting out of bed was like trying to lift a mountain. I still have trouble getting out of bed. On Saturdays I sometimes sleep for 15-16 hours, and I've missed a lot of church on Sundays because of this as well.
I've been getting to work late almost every day for the last 3 years and my employers have come to me saying that they might need me to go part time or fire me altogether, but I just can't seem to do what's necessary to get out of bed early enough! I have two alarms, both across the room so I have to get up to turn them off, but I'd just reset one of the alarms and jump back into bed again; I've had my friends call me up in the morning to get me out of bed, but all I'd do is jump right back into bed again, also; I had an agreement with my friend that I'd e-mail her when I got to work before 9:00 a.m. (I don't have e-mail at home) and if it was after 9:00 I'd have to pay her $100. Well, after about 4 days, I had to pay her the 100 bucks, and the day after I was late also, so that didn't work either.
Of course I've been having my small group pray for me and even lay hands on me, but this problem persists. Yet, I still hold myself completely responsible. It could be spiritual oppression, but I doubt it. I just need to get more self-disciplined and I pray every day that I will get to work on time, but it's still been a problem.
So, the whole genetics/free-will issue is tricky to argue in certain situations. I think many people are helpless in their compulsions to sin, and that's of course why Jesus had to save us.
Tigress
Ringo: What do you think, George?
George: I think I burnt me finger.
-Yellow Submarine | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/30/2003 3:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Tigress,
I appreciate you sharing your struggle with us. It sounds very similar to my own life--always late to everything, messed up sleep cycle, etc. Very familiar to me.
My recovery/deliverance from chronic depression has been made possible by a combination of things. Of course, all credit belongs to God, but the means God used for me was a combination of Prozac, Neil Anderson's "Steps to Freedom," and perhaps most importantly, my study of Open Theism and the writings of Charles Finney has truly helped me to deal with depressive thoughts (which I still have occasionally) in a constructive way. I'm not saying it has been easy, but I can say that for about four years now I have had very significant victory over depression in my life.
I really can't emphasize too much how much coming to understand the nature of my own moral responsibility before God (with the flip side being my ability to overcome in Christ's name) has helped me to have a more positive, God-affirming perspective. When I formerly held to classical theism (especially with the Augustinian concept of a "sin nature" that inevitably would lead me to defeat in the Christian warfare), I seemed to always have a dark cloud over my thoughts.
Anyway, I am definitely not saying this is the way for everyone else, but it has truly worked for me.
Some other commonsense tips that have helped me are:
1. Always get enough sleep, but not too much.
2. Proper diet and regular exercise (even just a brisk walk) are crucial. (The secular literature on depression that I have read has shown that brisk walking for 30 minutes at least five times a day is the best long-term therapy for chronic depression).
3. Bathe your mind in the word of God through worship, prayer, and Bible study. (I find that singing songs of praise to the Lord whenever depressive thoughts come is a very good means to get rid of them).
4. Don't be ashamed to take advantage of medical treatment.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/30/2003 6:55 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Leila
John -- I agree that the Bible doesn't condemn persons for being in an involuntary state such as depression, but what about those who commit actions that stem from the involuntary state? You said: quote:
ultimately the Bible only condemns that which is a voluntary transgression of a known divine law.
But the question becomes: can we humans really distinguish between involuntary and voluntary transgressions? Can't an involuntary state, like depression, greatly diminish one's free will, making their seemingly voluntary actions actually involuntary?
All I can say is that the Scripture is clear that we will give an account for every willful thought, word, and deed that we commit in this life. The only things we can escape judgment for are those things which we truly repent of, confess, and forsake.
As to genetic predispositions influencing our choices, as I believe God is absolutely just in all his dealings, I have no problem concluding that He will take all pertinent things into consideration when we stand before Him at the Final Judgment. If we truly "couldn't help ourselves," God will know better than we ourselves what the truth is.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 7/31/2003 4:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
As to genetic predispositions influencing our choices, as I believe God is absolutely just in all his dealings, I have no problem concluding that He will take all pertinent things into consideration when we stand before Him at the Final Judgment. If we truly "couldn't help ourselves," God will know better than we ourselves what the truth is.
John or anyone else,
How do you feel about Andrea Yates, the Christian mother who suffered from post partum psychosis and drowned her four children? What if she never repents?
Shell | | Back to Top | | |
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Laplace
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 7/31/2003 6:04 AM (GMT -6) | | My view on the matter echoes what Leila said and can be summed up with Jesus' words that from "whom much as been given, much will be expected". What God expects of us is largely determined by the cards that are dealt to us. He is a fair God (more than fair in fact) and His grace will always be sufficient for us.
In regards to mental illnesses, I too agree that in most cases it is not a spiritual issue at all (although not to say it is NEVER that way), but rather a physical one as well as an enviornmental one. And if most Christians feel there is nothing wrong with treating physical ailments through medicine then what is so wrong about relieving psychological pain as well?
The classic argument of course is that "Well, since it isn't physical, it must be in your head and you should be able to 'snap out of it'. Pray more, just do it, etc." First, it has been shown that often it IS physical (chemical imbalances in the brain). Secondly, just as one cannot often "will" himself to cure a disease, one should not expect that a person can be treated for problems like depression on their own.
I fully support the use of professional counselors and psychiatrists as well as the use of medication. However, I will say that it is best to get a CHRISTIAN counselor or at the very least one that is sensitive to Christian beliefs. For if that counselor doesn't believe in the spiritual world at all and thinks all this talk of God and demons are mere dillusions, then they will most likely make things worse.
"I say we blast the meatbag, Master" -HK-47, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic | | Back to Top | | |
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Fleetwood
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/31/2003 11:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Leila said, "I do believe that some people's wills are indeed so constrained by factors outside of their control that their choices in life are pretty limited, if they even exist."
This is a profound statement that is difficult to refute. To whom much has been given, much will be expected tells me that for some reason, I was born in America, with freedom, wealth, and health but someone else was born in an impoverished African jungle area "destined" to die young from malaria. I doubt that I will never reconcile in myself an understanding of how this is "fair" and it certainly indicates that many choices are not choices at all and there is no free will involved in many situations.
Laplace said, "What God expects of us is largely determined by the cards that are dealt to us. He is a fair God (more than fair in fact) and His grace will always be sufficient for us."
Why I was dealt the Americana card, I will never in this life know. What I do know is that I have the resources, the health, the background, the ability, AND the expectation of God, to give to those who were dealt a different card.
Recently, on the radio, a couple speaking of their adoption of two (or more? I missed some of it) children, both from poor countries and both with heart conditions in need of $100,000 surgery. The last child, a boy born with deformed, short arms, was adopted not because they were looking to adopt, but because no one else could be found, so they took on the responsiblility. In faith, they adopted children in need of expensive medical care, and God blessed them when a Mayo Clinic doctor performed the surgeries at no charge. Amazing. This is a picture of "to whom much has been given, much will be expected." This is how God expects the church to work and this is a picture of faith in action, love at its finest, and true Christianity.
There is no explanation as to why two children were born into the conditions they were born in, why they were orphans, and why this couple, on the other hand, was born in to favorable conditions. I don't expect we will find answers in this lifetime nor do I believe God owes us answers. The answer God has given us is this: "I AM."
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/1/2003 3:40 AM (GMT -6) | | I REALLY, REALLY LIKE HOW JOHN OF DAMASCUS LAYS THIS ALL OUT INTO NEAT CATEGORIES -- NOT LUMPING EVERYTHING TOGETHER.
- Fred from Missouri ("show me") | | Back to Top | | |
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