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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > Anti-War Rhetoric: secret agenda? | Forum Quick Jump
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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 2/28/2003 9:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | Ahhh, I see. I am sure his schedule is quite busy. He seems to be the most articulate and outspoken open theist out there, so he is presumably, and rightly so, very busy giving speeches, writing, and the like. So it is safe to say that by the time he responds we will have already invaded and defeated Iraq, thus, making mute his objections anyway 
I don’t mind discussing such matters, however, discussing such things after the fact would be quite insipid. But again, my bad (as the Wayans brothers would say), you are right arguing from silence is always the wrong way to go. Thanks for pointing that out.
By the by Semeia, I am not merely referring to Dr. Boyd in my remark about the silence issue (although this is what you seem to have assumed), there are others here that are – I’m sure – following this strain.
Asta Pasta
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne
Edited by - SeanG on 02/28/2003 2:42:40 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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SeanG
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Total Posts : 278
| Posted 2/28/2003 10:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Honorman, I just thought of something… most of the people that are out in the streets demanding that all the peaceful avenues haven’t been explored as of yet… and that killing (i.e., war) shouldn’t be the “first” (or eighteenth, referring to the charters) conclusion, are, for the most part, the same ones who say that abortion is the right of the mother, and that no one should be able to interfere with this choice. The point being that abortion isn’t the only nor last option. There are other means (considered more peaceful than the dismemberment of the infant child in the protective womb of the mother) to accomplish the same goals.
I got the idea from an article from http://www.realclearpolitics.com/
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/epaper/editions/today/opinion_e3f59084d03f40da0006.html
Although I do not wish to discuss abortion, I found the comparison a thrilling issue to bring up with a liberal marching against war chanting slogans about other options still open.
Honorman, I am going to give you my daily list of sites I go to for news… put these in a seperate “favorites” file:
Enjoy.
http://www.drudgereport.com/
http://www.newsmax.com/
http://www.wnd.com/
http://www.townhall.com/
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/
http://www.frontpagemag.com/
http://www.hughhewitt.com/
http://www.worldmag.com/world/home.asp
http://www.opinionjournal.com/
http://www.yaf.com/index.shtml
http://www.theweeklystandard.com/
http://www.cato.org/
http://www.nationalreview.com/
http://www.mediaresearch.org/
http://www.larryelder.com/
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/
http://www.foxnews.com/topstories/index.html
http://www.insightmag.com/
http://www.firstthings.com/
http://www.frc.org/
http://www.brain-terminal.com/
http://adnetsolfp2.adnetsol.com/ssl_claremont/1_audvid.cfm
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne
Edited by - SeanG on 02/28/2003 3:06:28 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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SeanG
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Total Posts : 278
| Posted 3/4/2003 9:41 PM (GMT -6) | | 
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 3/6/2003 9:35 AM (GMT -6) | | From Drudge ( http://www.drudgereport.com/ )
“BBC: White House denied rumors circulating in Washington that it's about to announce capture of Bin Laden...”
“JERUSALEM POST CLAIMS: Bush expected to announce capture of Bin Laden.... 'According to Israel Radio, US President Bush is expected to announce the capture of arch-terrorist Osama Bin Laden'...”
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 3/6/2003 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Sean: I've heard a lot of that, though for me it isn't that big of a deal...just the fact that he is a non-issue is great.
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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 3/7/2003 4:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Honorman,
I am going to a "pro-war" rally in our valley on Saturday, it should elicit some folks who will protest us... can't wait for the conversations to start flying!
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne
Edited by - SeanG on 03/07/2003 09:03:21 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 3/7/2003 7:13 PM (GMT -6) | | You'll have to tell me how it goes...don't be too hard on them!
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Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 3/7/2003 7:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Sean,
Just wanted to let you know that there are others out there who are definately in support of getting Saddam out of power. Enough is enough already. How long does it take before people start to realize that evil can only be abolished when good people refuse to allow it.
I was just wondering if you ever watch the Fox News program The O'Reilly Factor? He has had quite a few segments about how the anti-war protests are being funded by communist groups. He's also interviewed several leftest thinkers about their views on the war.
I'm taking several college classes right now where the teachers are always bringing up the issue of Iraq. It's good to get on here and vent after being lyrically assaulted by their liberal propaganda.
Thanks for all of your informative posts on this thread. I enjoyed them thoroughly.
- Trisk -
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28 | | Back to Top | | |
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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 3/11/2003 4:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Good!
Because the French and those who support them, are really out of their league in getting to the truth of the matter. The French invaded the Ivory Coast without the U.N.’s permission. They didn’t consult the world or other nations. They simply put their military forces in for the purpose of regime change in lieu of their national security interests. Sounds familiar doesn’t it? When we do it however, isn’t it funny that the more socialized nations speak out against us? Did you know that Libya is the head of the Human Rights division in the U.N., and the U.N. was going to make Iraq the head of disarmament?
It is utter chaos over their in that U.N. building. They have become irrelevant in my eyes.
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 3/11/2003 5:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Hopefully they will be come irrelevant in everyone else's eyes as well...
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Semeia
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 3/11/2003 5:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Sean, I got this in an email, and I was wondering if you knew from your research whether or not it is true. I always think it's kind of strange that we have laws against going in and assassinating despots and terrorists, but yet we can go to war and bomb the people suffering under the despots.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It was 1987. At a lecture the other day they were playing an old news
video of Lt.Col. Oliver North testifying at the Iran-Contra hearings
during the Reagan Administration. There was Ollie in front of God and
country getting the third degree, but what he said was stunning.
He was being drilled by a senator; "Did you not recently spend close to $60,000 for a home security system?"
Ollie replied, "Yes, I did, Sir."
The senator continued, trying to get a laugh out of the audience, "Isn't that just a little excessive?"
"No, sir," continued Ollie.
"No? And why not?" the senator asked.
"Because the lives of my family and I were threatened, sir."
"Threatened? By whom?" the senator questioned.
"By a terrorist, sir" Ollie answered.
"Terrorist? What terrorist could possibly scare you that much?"
"His name is Osama bin Laden, sir" Ollie replied.
At this point the senator tried to repeat the name, but couldn't pronounce it, which most people back then probably couldn't. A couple of people laughed at the attempt. Then the senator continued. Why are you so afraid of this man?" the senator asked.
"Because, sir, he is the most evil person alive that I know of", Ollie answered.
"And what do you recommend we do about him?" asked the senator.
"Well, sir, if it was up to me, I would recommend that an assassin team be formed to eliminate him and his men from the face of the earth."
The senator disagreed with this approach, and that was all that was shown of the clip.
By the way, that senator was Al Gore
Also:
Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree to release so-called "political prisoners."
However, the Israelis would not release any with blood on their hands, The American President at the time, Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, "insisted" that all prisoners be released.
Thus Mohammad Atta was freed and eventually thanked the US by flying an airplane into Tower One of the World Trade Center. This was reported by many of the American TV networks at the time that the terrorists were first identified.
It was censored in the US from all later reports.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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Total Posts : 179
| Posted 3/11/2003 8:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Semeia-
I'm not SeanG, but that email was a load of hogwash...It's been circulating for over a year now....
here's a debunker link...
http://www.urbanlegends.com/ulz/ollie.html
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 3/11/2003 8:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks, Fyodor.
I looked up the second half of the email on that site, and it debunked that, too, as a case of mistaken identity. So I guess I don't have to be quite as upset with the news media as I was all set to be!
Of course, is there anyone checking out the debunkers?
Thanks for the link.
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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Total Posts : 179
| Posted 3/11/2003 8:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Don't worry, the CIA checks the debunkers....
We can trust them
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 3/11/2003 9:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Semeia,
Fyodor got it right. Just a few months ago, when Ollie was making his rounds promoting his book, I personally heard him tell the story. Also, I thank God we got involved in that area! Since we assisted in the overthrow of the Sandanistas, there have been three democratic votes for what type of government the people wanted. And each time they voted in a non-Marxist government in those freely held elections. Reagan’s record is outstanding when dealing with the oppressive government dished out by the Marxists.
http://www.northamerican.com/EMAIL_RESPONSE.htm
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28942
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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Total Posts : 179
| Posted 3/11/2003 11:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Sorry, didn't mean to open the door to right-wing rhetoric.... he-he
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 3/11/2003 6:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Sean: just mentioning Reagan's name on this site is so cool. Reagan was the man...by the way, have you read Peggy Noogan's book about him, "When Character Was King." And by the way, I found an excellant book in the library, "why We Were In Vietnam" by Norman Podhoretz. Its very good.
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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 3/11/2003 7:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Honorman,
No, I don’t have the book by Noonan. It is horrible to admit, but I cannot stand biography “type” books. I don’t know why. However, I have heard of the other book you mentioned, by Norman Podhoretz, on the radio… Michael Medved brought it up I do believe. I never could remember what book he mentioned, thank you for inadvertently finding a resource for me.
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne
Edited by - SeanG on 03/12/2003 12:38:37 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 3/12/2003 11:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Sean: I am actually not much of a biography type either, but I wanted to check this one out because I grow tired of the Reagan bashing ones that litter the landscrape and want something that gives a good picture...
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hand_carved
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 111
| Posted 3/12/2003 7:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Semeiaquote:
I always think it's kind of strange that we have laws against going in and assassinating despots and terrorists, but yet we can go to war and bomb the people suffering under the despots.
I know what you mean, Semeia. Talk about double standards. We can kill hundreds and/or thousands of innocent people in war, we can even give the death penalty to people who may or may not be guilty of killing even one person. But can we go assassinate a tyrant who has killed many and caused sorrow to many more? "No way! That would be unethical!"
I have very mixed feelings about giving anyone the death penalty, but man... sometimes you just wish there was someone like John Travolta from Swordfish out there to get rid of some of these idiots. Seriously!
BTW...
Did anyone see on the news about the kids protesting war by skipping class? That was hilarious! The broadcaster was like, "Giving up algebra to protest war is kinda like giving up brussel sprouts for Lent." He went on to interview one of the girl protestors, picketing along the road. "It's just not right, all kinds of innocent people have been dying, and we have got to bring Saddam to justice!!"
INTERVIEWER: "What people?"
GIRL: "Haven't we bombed Iraq?"
INTERVIEWER: "Nope."
GIRL: "Oh... we bombed Afganistan though, right?"
INTERVIEWER: "Yeah."
GIRL: "Well, people died there...uh...didn't they??"
The interviewer went to another guy who was protesting who didn't even know who the leader of Iraq was. "Osama bin Laden?"
Pretty pathetic. Maybe there's a few genuine hearts in there, but that was pretty hilarious.
...brussel sprouts for Lent! Ha!
"I'm beside myself!" C-3PO, Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones. | | Back to Top | | |
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SeanG
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Total Posts : 278
| Posted 3/13/2003 6:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Funny stuff!!
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
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Triskal
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 3/13/2003 8:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Some people just need to feel like they're a part of something, I guess. College kids seem to be the main target of anti-war organizations though. They'll do almost anything to get you to side with them. I've been confronted by several people at my college who want me to go to anti-war protests.
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edward Burke | | Back to Top | | |
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SeanG
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Total Posts : 278
| Posted 3/16/2003 10:04 AM (GMT -6) | | http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31546
Spain links Iraq to 9-11 attacks
Madrid turns over documents to U.S., holds terrorist for trial
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 3/19/2003 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Who Armed Iraq?
Charles R. Smith
Monday, March 17, 2003
Myth vs. Fact
Name one weapon in the Iraqi arsenal that was made in the United States.
I have offered that challenge to dozens of so-called anti-war activists who claim that the U.S. armed Iraq. According to these protesters for "peace," George Bush Sr. and Ronald Reagan supplied Iraq with tons of weapons.
None have been able to name the specific weapon – missile, bomb, fighter, tank or shell – that is U.S.-made or has U.S. equipment installed in it. None have been able to name any specific weapon system.
All of them have failed the challenge, providing no more than allegations that U.S. parts are in Iraqi missiles or U.S. electronics are being used by the Iraqi military. One protester even claimed that Iraq was armed with U.S.-made trucks.
Since when is a truck a weapon? Are the Iraqis going to drive backwards, fuel tank first, into the U.S. Army?
Time to separate the myth from the reality. The propaganda spun by the far left is false. The facts show that Iraq is armed with a wide range of weapons – none of which came from the U.S.
Iraqi Air Force
The Iraqi air force does not fly Falcons or Eagles. The majority of the Iraqi air force is made in Russia. The Russian MiG and Sukhoi design bureaus supplied Iraq with hundreds of advanced strike-fighters and the Mach 3 Foxbat interceptor.
Saddam could field a force of advanced MiG-29 Fulcrum fighters if they had not chickened out of combat during the Gulf War, flying to Iran for asylum. The Iranians, who love Saddam even less than we do, never returned the MiGs.
The remainder of the Iraqi air force comes from France and China. The Chinese supplied Saddam with the Chengdu F-7, a copy of the Russian MiG-21. The F-7 can fly from unimproved runways and is known to be a vicious in-close dog fighter.
However, the French Mirage F-1 is reportedly the best jet fighter in Iraqi hands. You can view an Iraqi F-1 in action on the State Department Web site, testing a chemical spraying system.
If you still believe that the Iraqis have no chemical weapons, think again. Iraq did not modify its best multimillion-dollar fighter jet to spray for fruit flies.
Anyone with half of a brain knows that you cannot keep a modern jet fighter in the air without spare parts. Thus the Russian, Chinese and French jets should be museum pieces after 12 years of a so-called U.N. ban on weapons sales to Iraq. Yet somehow Saddam has his air force flying over 1,000 sorties a month.
Thanks to excellent reporting by Bill Gertz we now know that France has been supplying spare parts for Saddam's Mirage fighters. The French spare parts arrived in Baghdad not 20 years ago during the Cold War but last year, just in time to face our forces today.
Merci! With friends like, that who needs enemies?
Iraqi Missiles
Perhaps the Iraqi missile force has some U.S.-made weapons? Not. The primary Iraqi missile is the Russian-made Scud. Other missiles include the FROG-7 from Russia, the Exocet from France and the Silkworm from China.
The Iraqi air defense has plenty of missiles ... from Russia, China and France. The SA-2 Guideline, SA-3 Goa and SA-6 Gainful SAM missiles are all of Russian or Chinese manufacture. The French also supplied Baghdad with a number of Roland air defense missile systems.
Even the missile parts are from Chinese, German and French sources. Israeli authorities know full well what is inside Iraqi-made Scud missiles since many of them fell on Tel Aviv during the Gulf War. The Israelis found that the Scud warhead electronics were made in Germany – not the U.S.A.
In addition, William Safire recently wrote a column noting that a Chinese chemical company had supplied rocket fuel to Iraq through a French front company. Safire identified the fuel, the companies and the Iraqi missile facility where it was mixed into new Iraqi rockets. Again, the missile fuel sale was made within the last year, just in time to make new Iraqi missiles pointed at Kuwait, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Saddam sends his love to Paris and Beijing. Without your help he certainly could not threaten his neighbors with nerve gas and anthrax.
Iraqi Army
Okay, if not jet fighters and missiles, then how about tanks? Certainly the biggest weapons seller in the world, the U.S.A., sold tanks to Iraq.
The Iraqi armor force is made up of Chinese and Russian models familiar to any "cold" warrior. The Iraqi T-72 and T-55 tanks are all of Russian manufacture. The Iraqis also have a large number of Type-59 Chinese tanks and Russian-made BMP armored troop carriers. No M-1 Abrams here.
How about attack helicopters? The Iraqis have a number of choppers they used against the Kurds and Shiites.
So sorry, the Iraqi attack chopper force is Russian and French. The Russians supplied Iraq with a large number of the Mil-24 Hind attack helicopters, armed to the teeth with cannon, missiles and even chemical weapon sprayers.
The French supplied Saddam with a large number of Gazelle attack helicopters. The same French also managed to keep Saddam's attack helicopter force flying today with spare parts.
Guns, then? Surely the U.S. supplied Saddam with guns?
Nope. The main Iraqi artillery is the French 155mm howitzer. The remainder of Iraq's artillery is 122mm Russian-made cannons and Russian-made short-range rocket launchers. Even the Iraqi foot soldier is armed with the venerable AK-47 of Russian and Chinese make.
Iran-Iraq War
The facts are that during the Iran-Iraq war the U.S. supplied Iraq with something much more valuable than guns: satellite information on when and where the Iranians were going to attack.
Of course, current anti-war activists seize this piece of information without putting it into historical context. The information was supplied during the height of the Cold War. The main threat to America was the Soviet Union and the biggest fear in the Gulf was the Ayatollah Khomeini.
You remember the chant "death to America"? It almost seems that the ayatollah invented it. Ironically, the Ayatollah made his way to Tehran from his home in exile – Paris.
The Reagan administration, aware that the Iranian ayatollah had threatened to turn the Gulf into a sea of fire, assisted Saddam so that he would not lose the war. The assistance stopped short of helping Saddam win the war.
In fact, when it appeared the Iraqis were on the verge of victory, the Reagan administration transferred real weapons to the Iranians. The infamous Iran-Contra scandal involved a large number of badly needed U.S. TOW anti-tank missiles that were sold to Iran.
The U.S. missiles proved to be critical to the Iranian defense against Iraq's superior Russian tank force. The result was a stalemate and the war ended.
France/Russia/China
The fact is that Saddam owes billions to France, Russia and China for weapons purchases. Clearly, Iraq is buying more weapons from Paris and Beijing despite a U.N. arms embargo. Perhaps one reason why Paris, Moscow and Beijing oppose a war in Iraq is because they would lose their best customer.
The propaganda spun by the far left that the U.S. armed Iraq is false and backed by no facts. The so-called anti-war types are more interested in slamming Bush than stopping a war. None have been able to name one American-made weapon in the Iraqi arsenal.
More importantly, none of them can give one good reason why Saddam should stay in power.
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
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