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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
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   Posted 2/20/2003 5:37 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
    Letter to a War Protester

By Michael P. Tremoglie
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 17, 2003

quote:
Dear Melissa,

Last week you sent me an email asking me to join you in marching for peace on the 15th in Center City Philadelphia. I explained to you about the leadership of these protests. I explained that these people were communists and anti-Americans who have an axe to grind. I explained that my research about them leads me to believe that their cause has more to do with discrediting and destroying capitalism, democracy, and the United States than peace.

I told you I would be more than happy to express my desire for peace. However, peace is not what these leaders want. You started spouting specious arguments comparing Iraq to North Korea and about oil-the usual canards and fallacies that this crowd spouts. You replied that the leadership did not matter. It did not make a difference they were communists. The ultimate objective was peace.

You told me that you were at a forum the week before at the White Dog Café. Medea Benjamin was the guest speaker. You said Medea fascinated you. You remarked about how compassionate her speech was. You told me that she went to Iraq and met nice Iraqis.

My reply was that I did not think she was invited to Iraq to meet members of the secret police and the Republican Guard. Of course, there are nice Iraqis, I said. I know some Iraqis. They are the salt of the earth. So what? Saddam Hussein has murdered many nice Iraqis lately. Then again, a lot Iraqis have been murdering other people.

Once again, I reiterated that these pacifists were really Communists. You said that Communism was no longer a threat and reiterated that the leadership of the rallies did not matter only what their objective was. You proffered a sort of ends “justifies the means” thesis.

My rejoinder was that the rally leadership did matter and that these rally leaders deceive. These rally leaders idolize those who kill and enslave.

Well Melissa, here is a concrete example of why the leadership is important. These are excerpts from a Sunday, February 16, 2003, Washington Post article written by Evelyn Nieves. Even you will believe the Washington Post Melissa. I know normally you do not believe me when I tell you something. You did not believe me when I told you that ANSWER was affiliated with a Stalininst/Kimist organization. You did not believe me when I told you that Not In Our Name was affiliated with a Maoist group. You learned I was correct. However, I do not believe that you will question the Washington Post.

In her article entitled Antiwar Organizer's Politics Cause Rift, Nieves wrote, “. . . few of the tens of thousands of marchers had even heard of International ANSWER., one of the main organizers.. ANSWER's politics seemed moot…(ANSWER) has defended dictators such as Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and North Korea's Kim Jong Il and decried the state of Israel…the last several days, ANSWER's politics have created a rift within the leadership of the antiwar movement…Rabbi Michael Lerner, one of the nation's most prominent liberal Jewish leaders and editor of the San Francisco-based magazine Tikkun, went public to complain that he was "banned" from speaking at the Sunday rally here, because ANSWER objected to his positions on Israel.”

According to Nieves’ article, ANSWER and other rally organizers, said Lerner was not invited to speak because he had previously "attacked" ANSWER's positions. Lerner had criticized ANSWER for allowing too many speakers who believe that the United States is threatening to attack Iraq because Israel wants the war. Nieves quoted Lerner as saying "There are good reasons to oppose the war and Saddam. Still, it feels that we are being manipulated when subjected to mindless speeches and slogans whose knee-jerk anti-imperialism rarely articulates the deep reasons we should oppose corporate globalization."

Nieves then quoted a news release by the four coalitions organizing the antiwar demonstrations -- Bay Area United Against War, Not In Our Name project, United for Peace and Justice and International ANSWER. The communication stated, "When members of the Tikkun community, who have actively participated in the organizing meetings for Feb. 16, suggested to Bay Area United for Peace and Justice, that it propose Michael Lerner as a speaker, it was explained by members of UFPJ that since he had publicly attacked ANSWER in both the New York Times and Tikkun community e-mail newsletters, his inclusion in the program would violate the agreement among the Feb. 16 organizing groups."

Then Nieves states what is the crux of the issue-why leadership matters. In one sentence Nieves expressed the Orwellian world of the organizers when she wrote, “In other words, dissent among dissenters was not allowed.”

See what I mean Melissa.

You and your colleagues say it does not matter who the leaders are. Yet it does. Here is a perfect example. The anti-war leadership who organized the February 15 rally would not permit a particular anti-war activist to speak because they do not like his politics and because he criticized them.

The people who believe in free speech really do not think speech is free.

These are your associates Melissa, deny it though you may. They are as every bit as ruthless, despotic, and deceitful as the genocidal totalitarians they admire. Remember Medea Benjamin was originally Susie Benjamin and chose the name of an infanticidal character of Greek mythology. These are not the people who will bring peace on earth.

You want peace Melissa? Join me in a rally. My march will be to protest the real villain in this drama -Saddam Hussein. Join me in telling him to destroy his WMD’s. Then there will be peace AND FREEDOM.

DISARM SADDAM NOW!
From: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=6182


Edited by - SeanG on 02/20/2003 10:41:00 AM
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SeanG
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   Posted 2/20/2003 6:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Typical poster found at anti-war rallies.



SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne
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SeanG
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   Posted 2/20/2003 6:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29921

Carving up 10 anti-war arguments at holiday gatherings
December 9, 2002 By Michael Medved © 2002 WorldNetDaily.com

In the midst of this joyous holiday season we will all enjoy a series of family and social gatherings sure to provide festive food, abundant libations and freewheeling political rants. It could be your Uncle Murray or perhaps your sister-in-law Fawn, but this year one or more members of your clan will inevitably offer some indignant objection to the upcoming war against Iraq. Here, as a public service, we present a handy guide to the top-10 arguments against that war, and the most direct and effective ways to counter them.

    1. War never solved anything.
    Not true – war has successfully solved many (if not most) of the major problems and dangers in history. What "solved" Hitler? Negotiation, compassion, psychoanalysis? No, the willingness of Churchill and Roosevelt to slaughter as many Germans as necessary before we achieved regime change in Berlin. Decisive, crushing victories (like World War II) lead to long-term solutions (like the utter transformation of Germany and Japan), while indecisive and hesitant outcomes (World War I, the Gulf War) often lead to further struggle and instability.
    2. We have no right to attack Saddam because our aid made him powerful and he once functioned as our ally.
    Not true, and not even vaguely relevant. During the Cold War, Iraq was a client state of the Soviet Union, not the United States, and Saddam has always been outspoken in his Marxist, anti-Western fulminations. It's true that the U.S. foreign-policy establishment tilted toward Iraq in its bloody war against Iran, but only because the Islamic fanaticism of the Iranians represented a more direct, immediate danger to the United States. Suggesting that fleeting cooperation some 20 years ago means that we have no right to oppose Iraq today makes no sense whatever. We provided massive military and financial support to Stalin during his desperate battle against Hitler. Does that mean that we had no moral right to oppose the aggressive designs of the Soviet Union when it turned against us within months of the conclusion of the world war?
    3. It's all about oil.
    Not really, but so what? Are we supposed to ignore the fact that our whole economy, and therefore our national security, depends upon imported oil? Why is it even theoretically inappropriate to fight in order to ensure the continued delivery of a substance so essential to our survival and independence? Meanwhile, Saddam's psychotic and despotic regime would represent a profound danger to the world even if he controlled no oil assets whatever. The United States imports almost none of its petroleum from Iraq, but our European "allies" (the French, in particular) get a great deal of their energy from that country – and therefore ardently oppose the idea of waging war. On this issue, it's the appeasers – not the hard-liners – who are "all about oil."
    4. Instead of planning war we should be developing alternate energy sources to lessen our dependence on oil from the Middle East.
    Sure, it's a good idea to secure new energy supplies – beginning with the long overdue drilling of the fertile oil fields contained in 4 percent of the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve. Meanwhile, the fond visions of windmills and solar panels solving our national addiction to that nasty black goo will do nothing to change our immediate economic or strategic situation. Even the most visionary and optimistic views of "renewable" energy development indicate that these emerging technologies can play a significant role only some 10 or 20 years in the future – by which time regime change in Iraq will have surely occurred in any event, due to the eagerly awaited demise of the mustachioed megalomaniac.
    5. If we make war on Iraq, it will only enrage the Arab world and provoke even more terrifying assaults by terrorists.
    The logic behind this assumption is that our enemies don't really hate us yet, but that if we dare to harm Saddam, they'll just go nuts. As a matter of fact, it's hard to understand how much more hostile you can feel once you've already declared (as Osama did in 1998) that every American, civilian or military, adult or child, richly deserves to die. The truth is that our enemies don't hate us for what we do, they hate us for who we are. The "don't get the crazy Arabs mad" argument rests upon the premise that their fury arises in reaction to some action or policy of the United States, rather than as an expression of their own self-destructive insanity and suicidal evil.
    6. The U.S. is no better than Saddam because we've murdered some 1.5 million Iraqi children with our sanctions.
    At times, leftists offer this same argument using the figure of 500,000 Iraqi children, or 2 million Iraqi children, or whatever other number sounds good at the moment. It's a stupid lie – contradicted by reports of the United Nations – and simply shows that whoever repeats it serves as an unpaid but loyal propagandist for Saddam. The U.N. has repeatedly reported (as recently as last month) that the Iraqi standard of living and health care has been going up, not down, for the last several years – in part because of the "Oil for Food" program administered as part of the sanctions regime.
    Starvation remains a problem in that country – not because of a lack of resources or trade, but because of the deliberate and cruel policies of an evil regime. The magical mystery tours of Saddam's palaces by the United Nations inspectors demonstrate that the problem for Iraq isn't a lack of wealth, but a misallocation of wealth by a monstrous kleptocracy. In one of the dictator's palaces, all eight walls of an entrance hall were decorated with verses of poetry in praise of Saddam, inlaid in solid gold.
    7. There is no connection between Islamic terrorists and the Saddam Hussein regime.
    This statement represents one of the few examples of anti-war activists disagreeing with the official line of the Iraqi government. That line emphasizes the proud support of the heroic and revolutionary Iraqi people for Islamic fighters everywhere, including the holy warriors of al-Qaida. Meanwhile, the al-Qaida crew similarly expresses its solidarity with Saddam – as they did in their Internet statement (widely validated by intelligence agencies in the West) claiming credit for the recent Kenya attacks, and linking future assaults to potential war against their friends, the Iraqis. If Iraq expresses solidarity with al-Qaida, and al-Qaida expresses solidarity with Iraq, peaceniks face a difficult challenge in arguing that they represent utterly disconnected phenomena.
    8. All the talk of war against Iraq has caused us to lose focus on the war against terrorism.
    Even if the president of the United States happens to focus on Iraq in his speeches, that doesn't mean that the several hundred thousand Americans who have been dedicated since Sept. 11 to rooting out Islamic terror suddenly gave up or pulled back on their efforts. If our military and counter-terrorist capabilities don't allow us to simultaneously combat a gang of murderous thugs like al-Qaida and a fourth-rate military power like Iraq, then we have been even more tragically weakened by eight years of Clinton defense cuts than even the gloomiest conservatives assumed.
    9. If we go ahead with war against Iraq, it will represent a betrayal of our values and mark the first time in history that we attacked another country that never attacked us first.
    Only those with a truly pathetic public-school education could believe such rubbish, since we fought the War of 1812, the Mexican War, the Spanish American War, World War I, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, our campaigns in Bosnia and Kosovo, and many lesser engagements – all with no direct attack on the United States. Great powers face great threats – and dangerous enemies. Why would a war prove easier or more appropriate after Saddam develops, or uses, nuclear weapons – rather than before he's completed such deadly development?
    10. Iraq is no military pushover and we will suffer appalling losses in any war we launch.
    No credible military analysts agree with this assessment, and the peaceniks don't believe it either. After all, some of the same "activists" issued the same dire warnings about imminent disaster before the first Gulf War, not to mention our recent efforts in Afghanistan. According to any impartial analysis, the Iraqi military is vastly less powerful than it was at the time of the prior Gulf War, and our capabilities – including our mission-appropriate high tech weaponry – make us much better prepared than we were last time.
    The truth is that for many of the critics of Bush administration policy, the real fear (as some of them actually admit) isn't a bloody American defeat but a swift, relatively painless U.S. victory. Their belief is that it's a bad thing for the world if America becomes even more powerful, more dominant, in the Middle East and around the globe. They're dead wrong, of course – all humanity – especially the 200 million Arabs who suffer under the fanatical oppression of their own regimes – will benefit from a sweeping U.S. victory and an increase in American influence.


With these brief but logical ripostes, you should feel prepared for even the most contentious holiday gathering, and feel ready to carve up any sanctimonious Uncle Murray along with the goose or turkey. Merry Christmas!



SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne
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Electra
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   Posted 2/20/2003 7:21 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How about this anti-war rhetoric: Peace is patriotic. The Boston Tea Party is an example of a nonmilitary method of “regime change.” Martin Luther King Jr. cited Henry David Thoreau’s civil disobedience as one of his earliest inspirations for nonviolent resistance. Why posit conspiracies and secret agendas, as if peace activists are trying to get away with something devious and un-American? Dissent is a constitutional right, and it is one of our democracy’s greatest strengths. Electra

Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky
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SeanG
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   Posted 2/20/2003 6:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The Boston Tea Party isn’t what you think it was Electra, but I am not here to talk of history, as we fought a Revolutionary War to free ourselves from our homeland (regime change). Two recent articles speak of the damage these “dissenters” have caused, one article articulates that because of the later date of our troops going in, the more time Saddam has gained in reading himself. Not only that, but the summer heat starts kicking in April, and now we are going to go in around mid-March.

    http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030220-89227416.htm
Another article, from a more left leaning newspaper (the Washington Times is more conservative) is that from the Washington Post. I cut n’ pasted the entire article below, as I feel it is crucial that people read this article. The secret agenda was that the communists used “front” organizations to stir up an organized march, not revealing the truth behind the goals of such a march. And video footage of the march showed that almost all the marchers were anti-capitalists, extreme-environmentalists, etc. Not the “mainstream” people the popular press tried to make it. Nothing is really secret about it, for the Internet and talk-radio brought it to the public’s attention. There are no conspiracy theories here. My contention is that there shouldn’t be protests, but what are the marchers protesting? Capitalism? Corporate America? Oil control? This is not anti-war, it is anti-constitution.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27773-2003Feb18.html
quote:

Immorality on the March
By Michael Kelly
Wednesday, February 19, 2003; Page A29

PARIS -- Last weekend, across Europe and America, somewhere between 1 million and 2 million people marched against a war with Saddam Hussein's Iraq. All protests against war are ultimately ethical in nature, and Saturday's placard-wavers did not break with tradition: "Give Peace a Chance," "Make Tea, Not War," "Bush and Blair -- the Real War Criminals." These are statements of sentiment, not power politics, and the sentiment is, or is meant to be, a moral one.

Of course, not all the marchers can be counted as 99.9 percent pure moralists. Some -- perhaps many -- marched out of simple reactionary hatred: for the United States, for its power, for its paramount position in a hated world order. London's paleosocialist mayor, "Red Ken" Livingstone, a speaker at that city's massive demo, comes to mind. His enlightened argument against war consisted chiefly of calling George W. Bush "a lackey of the oil industry," "a coward" and "this creature."

But doubtless, hundreds of thousands of marchers -- and many more millions who did not march -- believe quite sincerely that theirs is a profoundly moral cause, and this is really all that motivates them. They believe, as French President Jacques Chirac recently pontificated, that "war is always the worst answer."

The people who believe what Chirac at least professes to believe are, at least as concerns Iraq, as wrong as it is possible to be. Theirs is not the position of profound morality but one that stands in profound opposition to morality.

The situation with Iraq may be considered in three primary contexts, and in each, the true moral case is for war.

The first context considers the people of Iraq. There are 24 million of them, and they have been living (those who have not been slaughtered or forced into exile) for decades under one of the cruelest and bloodiest tyrannies on earth. It must be assumed that, being human, they would prefer to be rescued from a hell where more than a million lives have been sacrificed to the dreams of a megalomaniac, where rape is a sanctioned instrument of state policy, and where the removal of the tongue is the prescribed punishment for uttering an offense against the Great Leader.

These people could be liberated from this horror -- relatively easily and quickly. There is every reason to think that a U.S. invasion would swiftly vanquish the few elite units that can be counted on to defend the detested Saddam Hussein; and that the victory would come at the cost of few -- likely hundreds, not thousands -- Iraqi and American lives. There is risk; and if things go terribly wrong it is a risk that could result in terrible suffering. But that is an equation that is present in any just war, and in this case any rational expectation has to consider the probable cost to humanity to be low and the probable benefit to be tremendous. To choose perpetuation of tyranny over rescue from tyranny, where rescue may be achieved, is immoral.

The second context considers the security of America, and indeed of the world, and here too morality is on the side of war. The great lesson of Sept. 11, 2001, is not that terrorism must be stopped -- an impossible dream -- but that state-sanctioned terrorism must be stopped. The support of a state -- even a weak and poor state -- offers the otherwise vulnerable enemies of the established order the protection they need in their attempts to destroy that order -- through the terrorists' only weapon, murder. To tolerate the perpetuation of state-sanctioned terror, such as Hussein's regime exemplifies, is to invite the next Sept. 11, and the next, and the next. Again, immoral.

The third context concerns the idea of order itself. The United Nations is a mightily flawed construct, but it exists; and it exists on the side (more or less) of law and humanity. Directly and unavoidably arising from the crisis with Iraq, the United Nations today stands on the precipice of permanent irrelevancy. If Iraq is allowed to defy the law, the United Nations will never recover, and the oppressed and weak of the world will lose even the limited protection of the myth of collective security. Immoral.

To march against the war is not to give peace a chance. It is to give tyranny a chance. It is to give the Iraqi nuke a chance. It is to give the next terrorist mass murder a chance. It is to march for the furtherance of evil instead of the vanquishing of evil.

This cannot be the moral position.




SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne
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fyodor
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   Posted 2/20/2003 6:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
My contention is that there shouldn’t be protests, but what are the marchers protesting? Capitalism? Corporate America? Oil control? This is not anti-war, it is anti-constitution.


As friend of mine likes to quote Richard Rorty, "I'm not sure that any of this is relevant."

I'm not sure where you're going with this SeanG, it seems like you really want us to believe that anti-war protestors should be lumped with communists and should also be considered immoral? I don't get it. It's just not true. I'm sure there are communists who are anti-war, as there are democrats, republicans, socialists and everybody has an agenda! There are probably even moral people in all those parties and some are for war and others are not.

Why the anti-constituion notion? The constitution is not infallible, our own elected government has found the need on several occasions to offer and pass amendments. It's DEMOCRACY. If an anti-war protest is lead by a group of environmentalists, so what? republicans, so what? The point is that we all are supposed to have a voice in a democracy. Communism has some good ideas, its just another imperfect system, but I don't see the necessity in pointing out who is who in the millions of protestors of war?

†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard
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SeanG
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   Posted 2/21/2003 4:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I meant to say, “my contention is there should be protests…” My Bad… by the way, the Rorty quote was very inventive… that is one philosopher I cannot stand! I have not seen one sign or one interview where a “war-protestor” hasn’t said something about capitalism, corporatism, oilism, racism, etc. I am trying to find the web-site that Hannity and Colmes (on Fox News) showed of war-protestors being interviewed. They were asked simple questions (summarized):

    “Since the inspectors were in Iraq from 1992 to 1998, and Clinton said that Iraq was still building weapons of mass destruction, why do you think more inspections would help given that they were in the country for 6 years?”

    “You just said Saddam was an evil tyrant, with that in mind, how would you deal with Saddam Hussein?”

    “How long should the inspectors be given to accomplish the job?”

    “We should talk to him, maybe we can talk him into complying…”


All that came out of their mouths were, “Ahhhh….,” “That’s a tough question….,” “I don’t know, but we shouldn’t let Bush take over the oil fields…,” “We have to stop corporate greed…” I haven’t seen, even out of most of the senators on the democratic side, a rational, non-conspiratorial solution to the problem. It is merely an attack on what people perceive to be corporate greed. Outside of bitching, I haven’t heard a positive solution yet. Because outside of military force, there isn’t any. It is just political posturing. And to do this while emboldening Saddam – which will kill more Americans, while there are many moral issues to enter that country (resumptively), makes the protestors immoral and non-thinking… as I haven’t seen a good argument yet.


SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne
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SeanG
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   Posted 2/21/2003 7:37 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Again, the anti-war marches are merely anti-bush marches. Signs and banners reveal this when they state things such as “Bush Is A Nazi!” “Bush Wants Oil Control!”

I haven’t seen any protestors with signs that say, “Stop The Kurds From Being killed!” “Stop The Torture Of Children By Saddam!” “Stop State Sponsored Terrorism!”

You mentioned the Constitution as not being infallible, I never said it was. I can say however, that it is anti-socialism and pro-capitalism. So when people attack our way of life and a conservative president for being just that, they are attacking the Constitution. Remember, it was Clinton, who in his draft dodger days while in Russia, burned an American flag in Red Square, not Bush. But the protestors that I have personally met and have seen in video footage have done the same… maybe not in deed, but in philosophy.

We are a republic, not a democracy. Let me quote from the Constitution (and I am pulling my worn copy from my back pocket): Article IV, Section 4
    “The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government…”
Our Founders had an opportunity to establish a democracy in America but chose not to. In fact, they made very clear that we were not – and never to become – a democracy (just a few examples):
    James Madison (fourth President, co-author of the Federalist Papers and the “father” of the Constitution) – “Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general; been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.”

    John Adams (American political philosopher, first vice President and second President) – “Remember, democracy never lasts long. it soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.”

    Benjamin Rush (signer of the Declaration) – “A simple democracy… is one of the greatest of evils.”

    Fisher Ames (American political thinker and leader of the federalists [he entered Harvard at twelve and graduated by sixteen], author of the House language for the First Amendment) – “A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will provide an eruption and carry desolation in their way.” - “The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness [excessive license] which the ambitious call, and the ignorant believe to be liberty.”

    Governor Morris (signer and penman of the Constitution) – “We have seen the tumult of democracy terminate… as [it has] everywhere terminated, in despotism…. Democracy! Savage and wild. Thou who wouldst bring down the virtuous and wise to thy level of folly and guilt.”

    John Quincy Adams (sixth President, son of John Adams [see above]) – “The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.”

    Noah Webster (American educator and journalist as well as publishing the first dictionary) – “In democracy… there are commonly tumults and disorders….. therefore a pure democracy is generally a very bad government. It is often the most tyrannical government on earth.”

    John Witherspoon (signer of the Declaration of Independence) – “Pure democracy cannot subsist long nor be carried far into the departments of state – it is very subject to caprice and the madness of popular rage.”

    Zephaniah Swift (author of America’s first legal text) – “It may generally be remarked that the more a government [or state] resembles a pure democracy the more they abound with disorder and confusion.”

Again, if you read the Washington Post article I posted in full (an above post), you will see that moral clarity is on the pro war side. I truly believe – subjectively of course – that in pushing the dates back further and delaying the war is a tactic by the Dems to allow Saddam to be more emboldened and prepared, thus allowing more of our men and woman to be killed. Why? To rout the Repubs in 04’. (For the record, I am a conservative/libertarian [lower case L] before being a republican , FYI.)

I do have to say though, that I am one to argue against the U. N., so my argument wouldn’t necessarily be for bolstering it. I say this with Katanga in mind, and for the fact that the meditation room was funded and maintained by Theosophists, and that socialism runs rampant in the published U. N. plans for the world (in fact, many of the founding and funding members were outright [or later found out to be] Marxists/socialists). So for me – keeping in mind my eschatological views – I do not support the U. N. as a whole. However, the argument is used to turn the tables on the liberals who have invested so much in this organization, and are now seemingly using it ineffectively. Which, given the liberal political-philosophy, is just par for the course. It is ineffective due to its aberrant view of human nature (which I spoke of elsewhere).

Before I list some books dealing with the problem at hand, either specifically or generally, I want to share a stat that blew my mind when I came across it. In Novemeber of 1998, the Democrat Socialists of America claimed they had as members (and listed them publicly), 58 House members (I believe it can still be found at: http://www.dsausa.org/dsa.html ). To make my point, can there be one person named in our Congress that is a member of the John Birch Society? (the opposite of the political spectrum). Don’t you see, our Constitution is not set up to allow Democratic Socialists in government, and in the past would have surely been disallowed to participate. Some good books that show a history of this are as follows:

    Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong In the Cold War and Still Blame America First
    This book is a list of Marxist-Leninist rhetoric by liberals during the Cold War. And that today’s left is no different… in fact, worse.

    Why We Fight: Moral Clarity and the War on Terorrism
    One of the best books written on the moral reasons to enter into a war with another nation. A must read for those into political philosophy and theology.



SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne

Edited by - SeanG on 02/21/2003 12:41:45 PM
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SeanG
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   Posted 2/21/2003 9:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Finally found it, actual footage of questions posed to some war protestors:

http://www.brain-terminal.com/articles/video/peace-protest.html#download



SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne
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honorman
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   Posted 2/21/2003 6:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for the great stuff Sean. Many people have pointed out that most of the protectors are not against the war so much as against Bush.

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honorman
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   Posted 2/21/2003 7:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Other great books: What's So Great About America? By Dinesh D'Souza, Slander by Ann Coulter and Showdown by Larry Elder.

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SeanG
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   Posted 2/21/2003 9:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thank you Honorman, I appreciate it. The books you mentioned are great ones. I especially love the writing style of Ann Coulter and Larry Elder. D’ Souza however, is just about the clearest and most powerful author I have read in my time, and I have read over 1,000 books cover to cover. His books, The End of Racism, Illiberal Education, and Letters to a Young Conservative, are captivating books! The Letters book is laugh out loud funny, I will post some stuff here for you. Keep in mind a good part of the book is about his revolutionary times as one of the few conservative students at Dartmouth’s campus:

    I joined the Dartmouth Review for two reasons: one esthetic, the other intellectual. The first was that I found a style and a joie de vivre that I had not previously associated with conservatism. The best example of this was the paper’s mentor, Jeffry Hart, a professor of English at Dartmouth and a senior editor of National Review. Hart was exactly the opposite of the conservative stereotype. He wore a long raccoon coat around campus, and he smoked long pipes with curvaceous stems. He sometimes wore buttons that said things such as “Soak the Poor.”… Even more outrageous than Hart’s attire and equipment was his mind. He was a walking producer of aphorisms. “When I heard about the French Revolution,” Hart once said, “my reaction was that I was against it.” During a trip to Washington D. C., a group of us saw an antiracism demonstration. One fiery-eyed black man wearing a Malcolm X shirt approached Hart. “Hey man,” he said, “Can I have two dollars for breakfast?” Hart replied, “Shame on you. You should be using the money to fight racism.”… In part because of his political incorrectness< Hart was one of the few people I have met whose jokes made me laugh out loud. His sense of humor can be illustrated by a contest that National Review privately held among its editors following the publication of a controversial Bill Buckley column on the issue of AIDS. People were debating whether AIDS victims should be quarantined as syphilis victims had been in the past. Buckley said no: The solution was to have a small tattoo on their rear ends to warn potential partners. Buckley’s suggestion caused a bit of a public stir, but folks at National Review were animated by a different question: What should the tattoo say? A contest was held, and when the entries were reviewed, the winner by unanimous consent was Hart. He suggested the lines emblazoned on the gates to Dante’s Inferno: “Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.”

His book is a primer for a conservative to understand his call to “duty.” he states quite clearly that conservatives are losing the cultural battle because we aren’t forward enough. He writes:

    “These incidents [giving examples earlier] point to the larger dilemma facing conservative students in a liberal culture. The dilemma can be stated this way. Typically, the conservative attempts to conserve, to hold on to the values of the existing society. But what if the existing society is liberal? What if the existing society is inherently hostile to conservative beliefs? [As this topic has shown.] It is foolish for a conservative to attempt to conserve that culture. Rather, he must seek to undermine it, to thwart it, to destroy it at the root level. This means the conservative must stop being conservative. More precisely, he must be philosophically conservative but temperamentally radical.”

We have a philosophy that is grounded in First Principles, modern liberalism doesn’t. In other words, we have a superior worldview. This being said, we lose in the emotional realm. This is where the liberal has won the day. An example is documented in the book Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth. It Speaks of the fact that all the psychological associations and textbooks (etc.) listed homosexuality as a psychological disorder that was corrected with therapy. And in fact, this therapy worked. However, as we were entering the “politically correct” era (a term created by a Marxist propagandist, by the way), homosexuals began to break into meetings and protest in mass at office buildings and businesses. So after a while, the APA (American Psychological Association) and others changed this diagnosis not with a study or controlled surroundings or influences to prove that this was in fact not a disorder that was treatable. They just – in situ – changed it with a ruling. Other good books on this subject are, Homosexuality: Contemporary Claims Examined in Light of the Bible and Other Literature and Law; and, The Politics of Deviance.

The point is that if you “tell a lie loud enough and long enough, the people will believe it” (Hitler). Imagine what the truth could do if told loud enough and long enough? There are many other examples, but you get the point. I hope you enjoy my rambling…


SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne

Edited by - SeanG on 02/24/2003 5:45:16 PM
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SeanG
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   Posted 2/21/2003 10:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mona Charen
February 21, 2003
The left sides with terror – again
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/monacharen/mc20030221.shtml



The demonstrators thronged the streets of Europe's major cities. Mothers pushed toddlers in strollers, teen-agers dressed up in death masks, men carried huge placards reading "Better Neutral than Dead" and "You Can't Hug Your Kids with Nuclear Arms."

In the United States, similar demonstrations brought thousands to the streets of San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles and Boston. Woody Guthrie sang "Blowin' in the Wind" and celebrities Martin Sheen, Jesse Jackson, Phil Donahue, Colleen Dewhurst, Jules Feiffer, Meryl Streep, Kris Kristofferson, Muhammad Ali, Jane Fonda, Ed Asner and Robert Blake leant their names and prestige to the movement.

That was then -- the early 1980s -- and it is so very like now. What brought the demonstrators to the streets then was President Reagan's determination to counter a Soviet move. The Soviets had placed intermediate-range nuclear missiles in Europe. Together with our European allies, Reagan proposed placing U.S. Pershing II missiles in Europe to right the balance.

In my just-published book, Useful Idiots, I pointed out that the original Soviet move -- an aggressive, bullying and destabilizing provocation -- had been met with complete silence by the left. There were no anti-Soviet demonstrations, no death masks and no moms with strollers. All of the anti-nuclear and antiwar agitation at the time was aimed at the United States, not the Soviet Union.

The same kind of wishful thinking about the enemy we see regarding Iraq was on display during the Cold War regarding the USSR. Just as the Nobel Committee has honored former President Jimmy Carter for his denunciations of President Bush, the Committee was similarly well disposed toward former German Chancellor Willy Brandt, whose policies smiled upon the Soviet Union. That Nobel Peace Prize winner participated in the anti-Pershing rallies of the 1980s and displayed the kind of credulity toward the Soviets that was so typical of the left. "Why haven't we taken the Soviets at their word in Geneva?" he asked.

The demonstrators of the 1980s told themselves that they were for "peace" and against aggression. Yet the inescapable consequence of their one-sided agitation was to bolster the Soviets -- the world's chief aggressor -- and damage the United States. Certainly the Soviets understood this and devoted considerable resources to the "peace movement." Today, Saddam watches the marches in Western capitals with satisfaction. Newsweek reports that he told an Egyptian newspaper: "Time is working for us. We have to buy some more time, and the American-British coalition will disintegrate because of internal reasons and because of the pressure of public opinion in the American and British street."

One might have thought that the Cold War's conclusion would have convinced the left that appeasement of dictators is not profitable. After all, since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the dismemberment of the Soviet Union, we've heard from the lips of former communists themselves that Reagan's toughness helped cripple the communist enterprise.

But instead, from London, Paris, Barcelona, Bonn and Melbourne, along with dozens of other cities around the globe, we see demonstrators once again taking to the streets to denounce not Saddam's thuggery, but the United States for standing up to it. A demonstration in Washington, D.C., drew hundreds of thousands, though the event's sponsor -- a group called ANSWER -- is explicitly communist.

Now they carry signs saying "No Blood for Oil" and "Make Tea not War." Jesse Jackson is there, and the celebrity list now also includes Susan Sarandon and Jeanine Garafalo. But the blindness and moral obtuseness remains exactly what it always was. It does not seem to matter whether the United States is thwarting the "evil empire" or the Islamofascists and their enablers -- the left's default mode is always to protest against us.

It isn't that these demonstrators love peace more than the majorities of people in the free world who support George Bush and the war on terror. It's that they value freedom and democracy less. Their jaundiced view is that the United States has given the world only pollution, low-skilled jobs and crass commercialism. If their policies had prevailed during the Cold War, the Soviet Union would be in business today. And if their policies prevail in this latest war, we must all prepare to don burkas and grow beards.


SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne
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honorman
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   Posted 2/22/2003 5:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sean: I haven't read D'Souza Letters but I have it. He is, to my mind, one of the clearest thinkers today. Plus, I truly think it irritates the left no end that he writes from a conservative point of view about racism and yet he is not white. Nor black. I am sure this bugs the "Jesse J" types no end.
I am curious about your assertion that we were not meant to be a democracy but a republic. Could you elaborate on this and what the differences are?
I have no problem with people being against the war. Certainly not everyone is going to side with any sitting president. The problem I have is the emotional response of the left who truly want nothing of actual dialogue nor do they have any inclination to support their country in any way. Its all about how evil Bush is and how evil America. How utterly hypocritical!
A local talk show host was interviewing a Greenpeace person yesterday (apparently they are no longer just into environmental issues now) who are planning to try and put boats near our ships to save lives. A caller called in and asked if this person could not see a kindred spirit in those who were prolife, for they put themselves in front of pregnant women in order to saves as well. At first the lady simply said that wasn't their issue. But when pressed by the caller, who said that he was only asked if she saw that they were basically doing the same thing, she replied smugly, I'm going to answer that question. The point was loud and clear: it is okay to break the law if you agree with me but not if you don't.
As I said, I have no problem with people disagreeing. But I think there comes a point when we need to support our country. Whether or not you agree with the president he has valid reasons for doing what he is doing.
Oh, this same talk show host made a very enlightening statement: given that he has had several democrats calling in saying they believe the president is right, he said he believes that most democrats believe in hearts that Bush is right, but they have such hatred for him, they cannot bear to support him. Therefore they are willing to sacrifice the security of our nation for their political ideals.

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SeanG
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   Posted 2/22/2003 8:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Honorman, A great – classic – example of the hypocritical side of the left with the caller! You are right about the environmentalists. When I mentioned “environmentalists” being part of the anti-war protests, fyodor said:
    “If an anti-war protest is lead by a group of environmentalists, so what? republicans, so what?”
I want to respond to this by taking a portion of a discussion with my son’s principle:
    As far as “soap boxes” go, the same could be said about how the school teaches environmentalism. This is another extremely radical view that is taught “as if” it is mainstream. I am only making a point here, the books your school supplies and how the course is taught is in direct opposition to the facts… to quote the co-founder of Green Peace, Dr Patrick Moore:

    “I now find that many environmental groups have drifted into self-serving cliques with narrow vision and rigid ideology. At the same time that business and government are embracing public participation and inclusiveness, many environmentalists are showing signs of elitism, left-wingism, and downright eco-fascism. The once politically centrist, science-based vision of environmentalism has been largely replaced with extremist rhetoric. Science and logic have been abandoned and the movement is often used to promote other causes such as class struggle and anti-corporatism. The public is left trying to figure out what is reasonable and what is not.”

    A few more examples to make the point:

    “There is no convincing evidence that human release of carbon dioxide or other greenhouse gases is causing, or will cause in the future, catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere or disruption of the Earth's climate.” - (Oregon Petition, from the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, signed by over 17,000 international scientists including more than 2000 of the world's leading climatologists, meteorologists and planetary / atmospheric scientists.)

    “There is no consensus about the cause of the slight warming of the past century. We are disturbed that activists, anxious to stop energy and economic growth, are pushing ahead with drastic policies without taking notice of recent changes in the underlying science” - (Statement of Principle, signed by 55 of the world's leading atmospheric scientists, issued prior to the Rio Summit 1992.)
The general public is not aware of the radicalism that is in “every day life.” This is why we, as conservatives, must get radical, we already have a superior philosophy.

Honorman, I will root around my essays (I have about 150 in my political section of Microsoft Word, if I don’t find something already written about the difference between a democracy and a republic, I will write a paper for you. Because if I don’t already have one written, I need one to be so I can use it as a salvo. Also, I am going to post a web site that is invaluable to me… I check it every day. You should get into the habit of doing so as well. it offers a plethora of articles, links, and resource… have fun.

It is: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/

Oh, P.S., I am a strong believer in “original intent.” The founders knew human nature better than most, and they knew that human nature doesn’t change; it will always be debased. They studied every political theory, philosopher, government, and the like. To this end, I recommend a book entitled Original Intent: The Courts, the Constitution, & Religion, by David Barton ( http://www.wallbuilders.com ). His video selection is awesome as well. You can’t go wrong.


SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne
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SeanG
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   Posted 2/22/2003 10:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Honorman,

I didn’t find any pre-written stuff in my collection… However, I did find an awesome site for you. Man! This place has too many essays on the subject!!

I will source quite a few papers from this site, and this paper will take some time. In fact, I will take so long in my reading of the articles here that you may want to answer your question here rather than wait for me.

Sorry for bogging you down with two huge sites

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/cliches/democracy.html

good luck.


SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne

Edited by - SeanG on 02/22/2003 3:27:57 PM
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honorman
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   Posted 2/22/2003 4:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sean: I always need new sites to go to! By the way, I ask every person who is for peace this question: where were you when Clinton bombed Kosokvo (wrong spelling I know?)? And would you be for peace if it was Clinton (or Gore) who was for the war?

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GregBoyd
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   Posted 2/23/2003 3:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, I'm not a communist, facist, or, so far as I can see, a participator in any of the other conspiracies that are alleged to behind the peace movement. But I have to say that the French and German arguments against war right now make more sense to me than the US arguments for war right now.

What's so wrong with just having a PERMANENT U.N. inspection crew over there? Why do we have to think of this as a "job" that has to have a time limit? Grant it, we perhaps can't "find" all that we suspect is there, but do we really think Saddem could have a significant build up of weapons of mass destruction while the inspection team is over there? If we're really worried about this, lets double the numbers, triple the numbers, whatever.

It would be a) a whole lot cheaper than war and, more importantly, b) not cost any lives.

I don't like Saddem. He's a very nasty fellow. But I picture the young Iraqi soldiers, and the mothers and fathers of those soliders, and little Iraqi kids... and if there's ANY WAY to avoid killing them, I'd rather do that. I don't see that we've exhausted every other alternative... by any means.

Greg

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6
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SeanG
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   Posted 2/24/2003 7:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dr. Boyd

I fail to see what increased inspections are going to do with stopping the raping, torturing, and murders that are everyday experiences by the people of Iraq under the thumb of Saddam. And while you may not be a socialist or communist Dr. Boyd, the French and German governments are (socialist), who have helped Iraq (a fellow ideologue) in building their nuclear weapons program. If you remember, Israel bombed the plant the French built Iraq back in the seventies – thank God!

I would love for you to be more specific about which of the arguments the French and Germans are making that are more acceptable than ours, please, elucidate for the sake of understanding. Dr. Boyd, you asked some direct questions, I will give some direct answers:
    “What's so wrong with just having a PERMANENT U.N. inspection crew over there?…. If we're really worried about this, let[’]s double the numbers, triple the numbers, whatever.”
From 1991 to 1998 we had inspectors all over that country. If memory serves me well, at its peak we had 6,000 [plus] inspectors on the ground. You spoke of doubling or tripling the inspectors we now have, even if you quadruple them it is still only 13.33 percent of what we had at one point. This shouldn’t be trivialized either Dr. Boyd, I will explain why. With this large number of inspectors at its peak, they still couldn’t find anything. It took one of Saddam’s top nuclear scientists to defect and tell us where some stuff was hidden for us to actually start finding it. If you take the amount of inspectors now and multiply them by 30, that won’t help, and the past has shown this to be true. Dr. Boyd, you also asked:
    “Why do we have to think of this as a ‘job’ that has to have a time limit?”
This is an amazing statement! I don’t mean to be crass, but there should be a time limit given, it is common sense to ask for one. There are also examples of countries that have disarmed, such as South Africa, that have done so in a specific amount of time. So, not only should it be asked for (because they don't want us to be there forever, neither do we), we have actual “hard” examples to compare it with as well.

For some reason, people seem to gloss over the fact that in 1991, the U. N. brokered a peace treaty between the U. S. and Iraq that Saddam himself signed. He, Saddam that is, at that point gave up his nations sovereignty to the U. S. if he didn’t meet specific criteria therein. Not only has he violated these, but also every U. N. charter since. He is the only nation that has fired missiles into five nations, invaded three, and has killed (and still is) over 1.5 million Muslims, not to mention about 500,000 of his own people who disagree with his policies. This is the same person who is trying to actively build a working nuclear weapon, which the nuclear scientist who defected (mentioned above) says he already has.

With this in mind, what amount of dillydallying would change the mind of a madman who has a track record like this? You also made mention that you:
    “… picture the young Iraqi soldiers, and the mothers and fathers of those soliders [soldiers], and little Iraqi kids... and if there's ANY WAY to avoid killing them, I'd rather do that.”
This picture that you vividly see in your mind is a poster and add put out by the Hollywood elite, who, for the most part, are not only anti-war, but also anti-American. I say this because many are self-avowed socialists. Albeit that this type of economic (and religious) view is popular on our university campuses, it is also popular with the left (remember my example of 58 democratic socialists in the House). And if you are an honest man you will admit that the Constitution doesn’t allow wiggle room for socialism. And if you read my posts, you will see that I do not think there are secret conspiracies afoot with the anti-war movement, there is just ignorance.

This being said, you seem to forget, or maybe haven’t thought about, the fact that it is the loyal Iraqi soldiers who are now killing “young Iraqi soldiers” who may disagree with the regimes current practices of rape, torture, and murder. And that it is in fact the “mothers and fathers… and little Iraqi kids” who are the ones being tortured and raped in front of the scientists and soldiers and general public to make them do Saddams bidding. It isn’t that this will happen if we invade. It is that it won’t stop until we do. Iraq has been at war for over thirty years, it is time it ended. Not only for the sensibilities of mankind, but for the stability of the region. Do you think of this torture, rape, maiming, and blackmail “as a ‘job’ that has to have a time limit?” I do.

You asked a general question, “…do we really think Saddem could have a significant build up of weapons of mass destruction while the inspection team is over there?” Yes. You also stated that “It would be a) a whole lot cheaper than war and, more importantly, b) not cost any lives.” Wrong. Given Saddam’s track record, it doesn’t take God’s infinite knowledge of past events to “forecast” that Saddam will strike again. I can make this educated guess myself. And that this will cost the world community more money and lives then rather than what will be spent and lost now, is again... common sense. If anything, having even 12,000 inspectors in Iraq would only slow Saddam down momentarily. This is a gamble that the United States cannot afford.

When my son gets a book report, the teacher does not not put a time limit on when it is due. And if my son is considering being disobedient, the thought of corporal punishment is a decisive factor in guiding his rejection of said actions. And while you may attribute “love” as being the most important aspect of God, I believe that it is justice. Because it is in His justice that God doles out love and/or punishment, not one in exclusion to the other. Love is the end result of His justice, as is punishment. It isn’t that “God is love,” it is that “God is just.”

Did you watch the video link I posted? Maybe you could answer the questions he asks in it as part of coming to terms with Iraq…
http://www.brain-terminal.com/articles/video/peace-protest.html
Must have DSL, or comparable.


SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne

Edited by - SeanG on 02/24/2003 12:12:43 PM

Edited by - SeanG on 02/24/2003 4:51:17 PM

Edited by - SeanG on 02/27/2003 01:00:00 AM
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SeanG
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   Posted 2/24/2003 7:22 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Honorman, you are correct. Bill Clinton went ahead and sent our troops into Bosnia for the express purpose of regime change! We blanket bombed entire areas in the reaching of this goal. I didn’t hear a peep from the anti-war protestors then? Nor the fact that we went to war with a sovereign nation ad hock. This is one of the clearest signs that all the talk from the left and those who support them is merely political mob-ocracy. An attempt by people who love power for the sake of having power not having it anymore, and now wanting it back. They will do and say anything – including marching lock-and-step with ANSWER.

    (For those who missed the point, ANSWER is a front group for a self-avowed Marxist organization, and it is ANSWER who organized the march on Washington. And the article speaking of the importance of leaders is as follows: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=6182 )

Honorman, what the left doesn’t realize either is that this is not a preemptive strike, but because Iraq has failed the parameters of the treaty, it is a resumptive strike. And Iraq agreed to this in the signing of the treaty from 1991, and the U. N. charters – especially 1441.


SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne

Edited by - SeanG on 02/24/2003 12:39:19 PM
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SeanG
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   Posted 2/24/2003 7:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Who really built Iraq's arsenal? Germany biggest offender in covert sale of weapons to Baghdad, says G2 report For those who care
From: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31190
quote:

…. According to the latest issue of G2 Bulletin, Iraq's own reports to the United Nations Security Council show that German firms made up the bulk of suppliers for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

"Even while playing the role of peacemaker looking only for solid proof of arms violations by Iraq, German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder knows the truth – that he and his country have provided much of the equipment and expertise Iraq has needed to reinvigorate its efforts to build weapons of mass destruction," the newsletter reports.

The German intelligence agency BND is believed to have served as a silent partner in a Hamburg front company, Water Engineering Trading or WET, which facilitated the export of materiel needed for such arms, the report says. Half of the precursor materials and a majority of the tools and the technology for their conversion into weapons were sold to Iraq by German firms -- both prior to and after the 1991 Gulf War.

The German firm Preussag is the leading supplier of chemical agents and production equipment to Iraq, according to documents turned over to the U.N. by Baghdad. Preussag is a subsidiary of Europe's largest travel agent and tour operator TUI. It is also a company that has been very supportive of Schroeder. In early 1998, when Schroeder was running for re-election as prime minister of the state of Lower Saxony, he had the state buy 51 percent of Preussag's troubled steel division to the tune of $500 million, claiming that 12,000 jobs were at stake. Schroeder went on to win the crucial election, setting him up to become chancellor.

Included on the Iraqi suppliers' lists are other German corporate names: Hoechst, Daimler-Benz, Siemens, Kloeckner, Carl Zeiss, Schott Glas, Karl Kolb-Pilot Plant and WTB (Walter Thosti Boswau). The WTB undertaking was supported by a credit guarantee for several hundred million German marks by Hermes, a German government export and credit insurer. Rhein-Bayern supplied Iraq with eight mobile toxicological labs housed in sand-colored, camouflage-painted Magirus trucks.

Germany may be the biggest offender in Europe, but it is not alone as a weapons supplier to Iraq. Western intelligence sources marked more than 20 countries as "Iraqi arms embargo busters" and the list could be longer, according to G2. The suppliers have been using mainly Syrian or Lebanese ports as ways for passage to Iraq….




SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne
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honorman
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   Posted 2/27/2003 9:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sean: have you read the book "The War Over Iraq," by Kaplan and Kristol? I just started it but it looks good.

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SeanG
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   Posted 2/28/2003 4:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No, not yet…

One author is the editor of the New Republic, a leftest magazine. The other author is an editor of the Weekly Standard, a rightest magazine. Both say war is a must…. It is on my list!

Take note of the silence Honorman, when feelings are wiped away and facts and stats are represented with sound argument, what happens... (*silence*)


SeanG!
    "I quote others only the better to express myself."
Michel de Montaigne
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honorman
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   Posted 2/28/2003 5:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, you are right...stone silence...

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Semeia
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   Posted 2/28/2003 7:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sean,

Greg has been out of the country on vacation since before your post in response to his.

A possible interpretation of his silence might be the lack of internet connection on the beach.

And even when he is in town, his insane schedule often keeps him off of here for weeks at a time.

When people fail to respond to my posts, I think a) they don't have time; b) they don't want to make a "quick" response that is less than thoughtful; c) they aren't interested in the direction the discussion has gone; or d) they don't have anything significant to add to what they have already said.

It's hard enough being misunderstood based on what one says. Let's not start misunderstanding people based on what they DON'T say!


Thanks,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard
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