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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 1/29/2003 5:33 AM (GMT -6) |   | Any thoughts...
People with genuine differences coming together on...?
In a culture that seeks to be homogenous through materialism, capitalism, moderate or centrist unification of the politic, an increasing lack of cultural identity, contrasted with growing class segregation, less political representation, where the majority of our prison inmates are minorities and our juries are white.....How does one reconcile? What is reconciliation? What would it look like to have racial reconciliation?
If truly lived out, the Christian Life should be the single-most radical social force driving social revolution. But how...
Looking for some precursor discussion to future sermons.....
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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graygirl
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 1/29/2003 10:08 AM (GMT -6) | | great question!
i have no idea.
as a woman of color who use to hate white folk and is now madly in love with a white boy, going to a largely white church, socializing predominatley in white brothers and sisters in Christ - the only salvation and solution and insight i can offer is: that it takes hearts changed by the power of God. that's how i got where i am. i'm not saying hangin' with white folk is me "arriving"....but it is me with a different mindset, etc.
does that change the whacked out reality IN this society, IN the body - uhmm no. are people really invested in hearing about why things are whacked out - rarely.
when i was in college i help found a black christian student fellowship, apart from the white one. we made efforts to "reconcile" and interface with the white grp on campus. in one such mtg with our leadership and the white group a white girl asked me "well, how should i talk to a black student?" sad thing is she was asking with a straight face. we just stared at her for a second. how peculiar? how sad? how great the divide must be.
i don't know my brother, i just don't know. i just know Jesus helped me (and continually helping me).
GG
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graygirl
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 1/29/2003 10:12 AM (GMT -6) | | great question!
i have no idea.
as a woman of color who use to hate white folk and is now madly in love with a white boy, going to a largely white church, socializing with white brothers and sisters in Christ and not totally freaking out about it. The only solution and insight i can offer is that it takes hearts changed by the power of God (no newsflash). i'm not saying hangin' with white folk is me "arriving"....but it is me with a different mindset, etc.
does that change the whacked out reality IN this society, IN the body - uhmm no. are people really invested in hearing about why things are whacked out - rarely.
when i was in college a bunch of friends and I created a black christian student fellowship, apart from the white one (long story. we made efforts to "reconcile" and interface with the white grp on campus. in one such mtg with our leadership and the white group a white girl asked me "well, how should i talk to a black student?" sad thing is she was asking with a straight face. we just stared at her for a second. how peculiar? how sad? how great the divide must be.
i don't know my brother, i just don't know (sigh). i just know Jesus helped me (and continually helping me).
GG
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 1/29/2003 11:32 AM (GMT -6) | | I see this as a matter of obedience. The Gospel is about reconciliation. God reconciles us to God and us to each other. Reversing Babel, as Greg (or rather Paul) says. Our job is to manifest both forms of that reconciliation. I am very excited to see where WHC goes with what I think is this sort of conviction.
I hope also that this conversation can be a place where some practical ideas get aired about what that might look like. Perhaps people can share about what God has led them to do both as individuals and in terms of systemic change?
Justa thought. Definitely not trying to redirect this conversation. Just interested in the direction it is going in....
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 1/29/2003 5:21 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm going to chime in here and try to write as delicately as I can, because what I want to say can be sooooo misunderstood. Graygirl, pay attention to this, if you would, and tell me what you think.
I grew up very near to Oakland, California. We're talking about a place with a lot of both black and white folk. I played in a funk band with all black folk; I was the only white dude for a while. We jammed our behinds off! (Man, what EVER happened to Earth, Wind and Fire!) In high school, it was the Mexicans against the Gringos. At the high school 5 miles down the road, it was the Filippinos against the blacks. Go figure! Weird. Well, hopefully we all grow up, you know.
But here's something I want to share and this is where I both want Graygirl's opinion on this and I ask ya'll to listen carefully. What I figured out one day was that something was unique with black folk that I didn't find with other so-called races. (We're all of one race!) It took me years to figure this out, because I not only didn't understand it, but (and this was the big one) because I didn't understand it I didn't want to admit to myself that I was even sensing what I sensed. But I think it's true, and I think it's cool, and I think it's at root (as well as other issues, perhaps) with this racial thing, particularly between black and white folk.
I can be around, say a Japanese fellow and neither sense anything unique (I'm NOT saying that Japanese folk ain't unique). There's no "racial" thing. Too, I can be around any Asian, for that matter, and nothing peculiar stands out to my senses. We all just hang. The same goes with folk from the European side of the world, the Latin side, the Slav side, you name it. I mean, yeah, if I'm the only one who speaks English and I'm in their neighborhood, well, sure, there's a sense of "Hey, I don't know what they're saying; do I fit in here?" But that's different than what I'm getting at here.
When I'm around most (not all) black folk, there is something unique and special that stands out to me--not that the black race is more special or better than the others; that's not my point. But what I discern is that there is (I'm speaking generally here) more distinction of blacks among blacks than any other race (as I have perceived it). Let me explain.
I can be in a gathering with Asian Americans, and there isn't the slightest hint that they will naturally migrate, given the chance, toward each other. It's not even the "natural" thing to do for them, if you will. The same applies for Latinos; in a group of mixed races (oh, a party or what have you), they party along with anyone. But black folk will migrate toward each other (generally) very quickly. If there's no click between them, it's a loose tie; if there is a click (chemestry), the bond goes tight quickly. I repeat: this is in general, not for every black person on planet earth. AND I'm speaking about African Americans, not black imigrants. I've not sensed in them what I'm talking about here.
What I saw, my observations, and how I was a part of this just growing up with a lot of black folk around me, caused me to be uncomfortable. This was labeled as being a racist. I wasn't. I was uncomfortable with something I sensed, didn't like the fact that I sensed it, and wished it wasn't there so I could be free to be "in" with everyone. Now, however, after being able to identify what was going on, I'm not uncomfortable anymore, but I can't say that I have an answer as to what to do about what I've sensed.
When I played in that funk band, I'd go to the different band member's houses. I was welcome and we all got along. There was that "thing" I sensed, but it was confusing, because it wasn't revealing its hand as being stereotyped racism, yet there was definitely something there. Playing music, however, made you forget about it. Everyone was suddenly thrusted into this different world where I could loose my senses and just jam my butt off! But back at the folk's houses, they were, I'm sure, aware of this "thing" I'm talking about as much as I was. Heavens, I ain't stupid, and neither were they. It wasn't racism, though, BUT it was confusing, I think, to all of us. Well, we did our best to just ignore it and get on with it.
Years later now, I'm able to look back at those days, look at these days, and I've come to determined that there is something very unique about black folk. My first incliniation is that maybe it's something that's become almost in their blood carried over from slavery days; they bond with each other instinctively from the days of having had to. That may very well be a part of it. But I also believe that there is just something extra, if you will, that God has given the black race that he has not given any other race; not the white race, not the Asian race, nor any other. Oh, we all have our uniqueness; blacks are dominant in sports; whites love the entrepaenerial (sp!) spirit; and the Asians have this master ability to work meticulously with the minature and the electronic, among other talents. But black folk have something that goes further. I guess you could call it soul.
There is soul in most black folk's moves, in there speech, in there hearts. They express it with their hands, their eyes, and their walk. It is abused sometimes (as we all abuse our unique gifts), but nevertheless, it is there. It's a real live force that I don't have. Hek, black folk been kidding us white folk for years about not having soul. Now, thank God, we laugh together about it. I've tried to "have" soul, but how does one have it? Either you do or you don't. And when I realized I didn't, rather than retreat, I might as well search for the common ground we both have. And that's the part about racism that is so hard between black and white people (other than the REAL racism issue: hate.)
See, I figure it this way. The human race is very capable of being threatened with something different and unexplainable when that difference and unexplainable makes us uncomfortable. And the most uncomfortable thread in the fabric of life is another person, a different person. I am convinced that much of what we see or call racism is simply the lack of recognition that there really are difference and uniquenesses that just may make us feel uncomfortable because we don't fit in. We can't, and I think it's a mistake to try. (I am sooooory, but I just don't have no soul! And ain't no Latins--they be stuck on their romance thing--and no Asians who do either.)
As fyodor said, "People with genuine differences coming together on...?" Well, I could give an answer that would be too cliche: "Let's come together in Christ." That's not wrong, but it's not addressing the issue. The issue is HOW do we deal with the uncomfortableness EVEN IN Christ? Let's face it: most of us Christians are not Super Christians. We're real, feeling, sentient people. We know when something's there, and particularly when that something's different than we are. It makes us uncomfortable, even as Christians. And yes, worshiping God together is a must, but how many times have I see a white person trying to act like he/she's got soul in church because he/she's in a predominately black (or reasonable facsimile) church? That person doesn't act like that in their own church, or any other predominately white church, for that matter. It doesn't work after all is said and done. There must be something more to worshiping together than that. Oh, there's nothing wrong with 'having a little soul' in your life and worship, but is that really addressing the issue at large?
Graygirl, you said that you used to hate white folk but now you're in love with a white guy. Yes, love crosses all boundries, doesn't it! But . . . what IS THE LOVE that specifically crosses all boundries? Maybe you've never even given it thought; I don't know, because you didn't say. But if I FIRST UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENCES, and that they will ALWAYS be there (for the good, mind you), then maybe, just maybe, that's a real start; for love cannot flow any better than water can flow if the pipe is turned off, or worse, dammed up. I now not only now that what I was sensing for so long wasn't anything racist, but I am very happy about having discovered the truth of our differences (namely that I ain't got no soul!) I can't say that I've found the way yet to hit the middle on this--I wish I did have soul--but I know that I'm not a closed- or dammed-up person anymore. The rest is cake from here.
Well, I've had no time to re-read and edit this. Ya'll are getting this as it comes. I PRAY that I've not offended anyone and that I've written clear enough to have conveyed what I wanted to say and not anything else. Just for the record, I love all people. I'm not threatened anymore by our unique differences!
For the ONE race: people, and most particulary, people in Christ.
Keith
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 1/29/2003 7:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Excellent post Starkman. I await a response from others to your thoughts.
I think you've touched on one of the many core issues that surround this subject. So often this issue gets funneled down to the hurdle of racism, although, I think its clear from your post that racism is an issue, but not the particular issue that could not be reconciled in your case. There are genuine cultural differences amongst races that cause a sense of dischordance when races interact.
Recently, I talked with Efrem Smith who is starting a chuch in north Minneapolis called The Sanctuary. Part of the vision statement which I'll quote rather than misquote, reads as follows:
quote:
The Sanctuary will be multi-ethnic, which means reconciliation will be a central focus...This means that among other issues, the church must be committed to multi-ethnic leadership, a multi-ethnic worship experience, as well as deal head on through discipleship with issues of racism, classism, sexism, justice, and oneness within the body of Christ.
I asked him how are you going to get a church to be multi-ethnic? It seemed to me, in my previous experience, the churches that I've seen attempt to do this have remained largely all-black, all-white, all one race with the exception of a handful or small percentage of interracial attendance.
His response seemed very obvious to me in retrospect. Rather than expecting cultural barriers to just disappear and having one race just be incorporated in to the style of worship of another, he laid it out as more of an attempt at exposure...
He said, We'll still have a bunch of the songs that you might sing at Woodland Hills on any given weekend, but we'll also throw in a little hip hop worship, and every once in a while someone will just bust out in front and do a little rhymin'.
I thought to myself, "Hey why not?" I start off by knowing some of the music and singing it in my style, others have some of their music in their style, suddenly we're all a bunch of happy folks singing about Jesus....It's simple, it's realistic and it's unifying. Obviously, this is just about worship music, what other ways can we transcend cultural differences, avoiding homogeneity (sp?), and striving for interaction at the very least?
Also, is it even possible to talk about race outside of the issue of class, and gender for that matter:
David Smith, who I believe is now a professor at the Hamline Universitty Graduate School of Law in St. Paul did a study several years back. I think it came out in 1996 but I'd have to do some digging. Using census data from 1990, he concluded that the Minneapolis-St. Paul Metro area was one of the top five most segregated cities in terms of race, and the most segregated in terms of class of the metropolitan areas of similar size in the US.
How do we work towards class reconciliation, and how do the same concepts integrate with racial reconciliation. Please give your two cents 
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard
Edited by - fyodor on 01/30/2003 12:19:44 AM
Edited by - fyodor on 01/30/2003 12:21:15 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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graygirl
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 1/30/2003 3:32 AM (GMT -6) | | wow. great thoughts everyone.
where to start...i'm pressed for time right now so this is just a "i hear ya" post.
i do recognize that something is different with black people - absolutley. i'm from Ethiopia (to make things more complicated), came here at a young age. I went straight to a small, all white, very white town in WI with just my sister. then my family was able to get out of Ethiopia and we moved to the cities. tried to fit in with the black kids - didn't. tried the white kids-didn't. ethiopian kids - didn't. i was a mess. the experience though made the difference that you wonderfully articulated Starkman, very, very evident to me. there is something very distinct about American blacks. about white people in the north. white people in the east. ethiopians in the north. ethiopians in the south. ethiopians born here. ethiopians recently immigrated. know what i'm sayin'. noone is objective (and i know you weren't saying that Starkman) there are deep, deep rifts in everyone's psyches. DEEP! everybody has a rift.
the beauty of my experience (that i see now) as being a first generation immigrant going through all those painful changes is that i don't fit in anywhere and that is FREEDOM! Praise God! that has allowed God my only definer (because that's all i got), and has allowed me the freedom to openly, honestly talk about these distinctions among us (me first). somehow in this whole complicated thing i think that has to be one of the steps. that we are first defined by God (not in a color blind way). that will give us the security and love to be honest.
i don't know if i'm making sense, but i promise to write more later tonight when i have some time.
i'm thinkin' though about some of the other things you asked Starkman (bless you:)) and will write more later.
Peace,
GG
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 1/30/2003 3:47 AM (GMT -6) | | I have a VERY practical but to me critically important question:
What would be the visible marks of a church that is truly regarded as serious about racial reconciliation?
What would say, to the black community in particular (because this is truly where the deepest rift is), "WE ARE SERIOUS about reconciliation."
Would it include reparations?
I definitely agree that class issues are serious as well, but I think there is a race thing that runs deeper.
Are there structural changes that the church needs to be involved in that would possibly indicate that a church is truly serious? Would these structural changes be both external and internal or simply one or the other?
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK
Edited by - ModesofThought on 01/30/2003 08:49:11 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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graygirl
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 1/30/2003 4:45 AM (GMT -6) | | a church with visible marks is a church that exhibits a body of diverse believer who have NATURAL, loving relationships with each other. A church where we sing songs from every tradition in a NATURAL way. i think children are the best examples. they will sing gospel or folk worship music and see no distincition...just songs that sound different. when i have children i deeply desire, and will move, to find such a community...so they can grow up in an environment where they have friends from all over the world as i did. that way, when it is such a NATURAL way of being there will be such a need for as much introduction and explaination of differences.
what annoys me about racial rec. is the overt, "we're reconciling" business. it has to be a natural outpouring of the heart. people find it annoying with it is so staged - like Starkman was saying white people acting like they have soul when it may be unnatural for them.
i don't know that there is a forumla for structural change. it has been nice though and a huge step in the right direction to see color reflect in the leadership.....but it is even more impacting when you see relationships that are NATURAL among people of different races.
my two cents.
GG
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 1/30/2003 5:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Whatever the answer, Modes (and I'm speaking specifically here about African American folk and white folk), it has to be something that first addresses the uncomfortableness between them. Otherwise, the uncomfortableness is simply brought to church. It may get transended there for a while because of worship and love--very, very good things--but I'd like to see something that strikes at the heart of the matter beyond this.
If both black and white folk can come to know and understand something about this significant uniqueness I've written about here, I think that would greatly help to create that, "Oh, so THAT'S what a lot of what I feel is." Since what I've written about is only part of "racism", it leaves the other pipelines yet to be unplugged. But I can't help think that we will end up with more "stage", as graygirl noted, if we do not bring about some sort of an answer that relieves pressure first so that the love may flow freely. I wish I had the answers as to how this should be done. I sure do.
Starkman
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S.B.G.
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143
| Posted 1/30/2003 7:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Excellent comments guys,you have all been open and honest about your perceptions and experiences! I thought I had soul (I love to dance) until my next door neighbor James -an extremely exuberant black man-- moved in. Boy does he put me to shame! James and I have had some discussions about the differences between races and it's wonderful to accept each other,love each other, and find common threads in Jesus (and Kirk Franklin). My 9 year old daughter's best friend is black, and they are inseperable. They do not pretend the differences don't exist, they will talk about them and point out the things they like in each other (especially Monde's hair weave). In both cases, I see something all of you have touched on; love each other for who you are and don't pretend to be something you're not.
On that note, I want to commend my husband, he is a souless white boy if you ever saw one. (sorry honey) He can't clap, he can't dance, but he worships along with everyone at Woodland Hills to music that is unfamiliar and styles that aren't so natural to him. yet, his heart is full and in love with Jesus and he admires the style and rythym of those around him.
That reminds me of a funny story: One night at worship Greg Boyd was standing next to my husband. After about two songs Greg turned to my hubby and said "you clap like a white boy." My hubby thought about it for a minute and answered "Well, I am." That will forever keep me laughing!!!
In Peace and Love,
S.B.G.
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/30/2003 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | What would be the mark of a church that was serious about racial reconciation? Probably that they wouldn't be obsessed about achieving it. True racial reconciation comes when we can celebrate the wonder of each unique individual and each unique group without being self conscious about it. Until then everything else is just forced politics.
Why is "forced" segregation important? Last year they did a study of the churches in our area and found that most churches in the area were along racial (as well as economic lines). In other words there were churches that were predominately black, white, etc. However, to a letter all the pastors interviewed said there was nothing wrong with that because each church reflected the community were in and, as long other races were not barred from worshipping in any church, there was nothing wrong with it. In fact, several of the churches of different races do joint ventures. Yet there has been no desire for segregation because these churches are serving their communities.
Edited by - honorman on 01/30/2003 1:03:19 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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LDR
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 1/30/2003 4:48 PM (GMT -6) | | I grew up here in MN--an ordinary kid just enjoying life. My grandma foster-parented some Chippewa kids about my age, and when we went to visit grandma we played with "cousins" Frank, Linda, and Nina as naturally and as happily as any other relatives. Never gave it a thought that we didn't look just alike and didn't have precisely the same cultural background. We went to Pow Wows and other Native American events with them, sharing the excitement and admiring the skills of 'their people' without thinking for a moment that such a category as 'their people' even existed. At 13 I went off to a private boarding school, where for the first time in my life I met Afro-american kids and Asian kids and European kids. Same thing. We were going through similar transitions, finding friends, checking out the opposite sex, studying enough to get by, and building memories. Color and culture didn't factor into our thinking at all--as I recall; what counted was whether a person was decent and fun-loving, or not.
But almost imperceptably my world changed. By the time I entered the university, black/white racial tensions were palpable. I studiously attempted to understand American history through the eyes of the black young people around me, and I began to succumb to a kind of reverse prejudice. I felt I had to 'prove' that I was tolerant, accepting, even embracing. I went out of my way to try to compensate for the mistreatment 'my race' had inflicted on earlier generations. Was anyone 'healed' by my efforts? Not to my knowledge.
I have lived another 30 years, in a wide variety of environments--rural, urban, poor, affluent, racially diverse, homogenous--and what I know is this: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for [we] are all one in Christ Jesus." Gl 3.28 That is to say, the differences exist outside of Christ, the commonalities are found within Him.
Love to my brothers and sisters, LDR
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 1/31/2003 12:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Graygirl:
quote:
it has been nice though and a huge step in the right direction to see color reflect in the leadership.....but it is even more impacting when you see relationships that are NATURAL among people of different races.
I think this is the end, but not the means. How do relationships become natural when real and explicit cultural differences exist. Obviously there is some intermingling of races in our society, but it seems more by happenstance than choice.
Natural relationships would be great, and are great when they happen, but what happens when they don't .
What are the pragmatic approaches to building cross-cultural relationships?
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/31/2003 6:40 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm not sure there are any "pramagtic" approaches to building cross-cultural relationship. What do you do, walk up and say, "hey, you're a different than I am, how about us getting together and learning about each other." To me thats kind of like a Christian walking up to a non-christian and saying, "hey, you're a heathen, let me convert you."
The only "pragmatic" way that I know of is to take people as individuals and learn about them as a person, not a race.
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graygirl
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 2/1/2003 6:45 AM (GMT -6) | | fydor,i don't know.
i have to agree with honorman that the walking up to the person and forming a relationship thing doesn't work. i've had it done to me and it is SO cheesy and useless.
all i can say is what i said in the beginning that the the first step has to be a changed heart. then i believe the Lord will create those natural relationships. that's how it worked in my life - i don't know what else to suggest.....i just don't know. but i have to say that i don't even think step one has been accomplised. i don't think the heart stuff has happened yet. i constantly have to hear believers complain about this and that when it comes to race. that to me, the heart change is the hardest and most necessary part.....i don't see the rest as a problem. my life is a testimony to that....
don't know dudes
GG
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ousia
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 5
| Posted 2/2/2003 10:56 AM (GMT -6) | | A black man taught me what it means to be civilized. He said that the meaning of civilization could be communicated in one word: Welcome. The world places conditions on who may be welcomed. But we are called to welcome all, not because of any system of classification or merit, but “because God has welcomed them” (Rom. 14:1ff; 15:7).
God’s welcome transforms the “other” into our neighbor. This is not only true for the “other” who is a stranger to us, but also the “other” who is a friend, a family member—even an enemy. This can be stated in another way: we are to be neighbors to stangers, family, enemies—everyone. Being a neighbor means treating those who are far—even the furthest—as though they are near to our hearts. How near? As near as we are to ourselves (Digression: Relating to others in this way is decidedly unnatural, and is likely to be interpreted as madness and/or hatred if it is done consistently). This treatment is not based on the degree to which our neighbor has earned a place in our hearts, but rather on the degree to which all have been welcomed into the heart of God. This is the highest degree.
The nations we consider most “civilized” welcome some and struggle to “tolerate” others. Perhaps the greatest test of civilization is how a nation treats its enemies. All are welcome in the Kingdom of God.
ousia
jai guru deva
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 2/3/2003 9:26 AM (GMT -6) | | It is of no use for us to confess our faith in Christ if we have not gone first and reconciled ourselves to our brothers and sisters, even to the godless, racially different, ostracized, and outcast. And a church that calls a nation to faith in Christ must itself be the burning fire of love in this nation, the driving force for reconciliation, the place in which all the fires of hatred are extinguished and prideful, hate-filled people are turned into people who love. ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Sermon on 1 Cor. 13:13
Peace,
Electra
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8
Edited by - Electra on 02/03/2003 2:26:59 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 2/3/2003 12:22 PM (GMT -6) | | The Bible calls us to reconcilation, the Bible does not call us to reconcilation with any particular group, or to pick out a group for a certain reason, but we are called to love all. The attitude that we should somehow pick out a certain group and love them and reconcil to them because that group was abused in the past assumes a responsibility that I do not believe the Bible calls us to. To love fully one must love individually and see people as distinct individuals, not love them because they are part of any group.
To confess Christ is not to confess that you are doing all that God would require of you. It is to confess that Christ has loved and saved us. COnfessing Christ has nothing to do with what we have done, but is about everything God has done. To wait to confess him until we are loving (or anything else) correctly is to put the spotlight on us. And If we don't confess Christ until we do all that God commands, we'll never confess Christ.
Edited by - honorman on 02/03/2003 5:25:19 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Magneton
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 2/6/2003 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | I would highly recommend Curtis DeYoung's book Reconciliation: Our Greatest Challenge--Our Only Hope, which I read after his awesome message at WHC. He speaks in a very practical way of how we can go beyond what he calls "cheap reconciliation."
And yes, Modes, reparation will be a part of that. One example was that of the Veterans Vietnam Restoration Project, which took a 3-step process toward reconciliation. First they took responsibility and acknowledged the damage they'd done to the country. Second, they repaired some of the damages by building health centers and the like. Third, and only then, did they ask forgiveness.
Closer-to-home examples of reparation as a means of reconciliation would include re-building what has deteriorated in the inner city due to white flight. DeYoung observes that the efforts he's seen to be most helpful are partnerships: quote:
One way such partnerships occur is when urban and suburban congregations work together. A suburban congregation can provide economic and volunteer support for community development projects run by a congregation in an urban neighborhood. The urban congregation can help repair damage in the suburban congregation that has resulted from separation. This could include workshops on the effects of racism, materialism, and classism.
Out of such partnerships, relationships can develop that can bring not only reconciliation between us, but to impact the broader community with the ministry of reconciliation.
Magneton
Declaring that we are all equal without repairing the wrongs of the past is cheap reconciliation. - Curtis DeYoung
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 2/6/2003 7:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Mag: given that I am the son of a man who fought in both Korea and Vietman and have spent my life around those who have fought in that and other wars I would ask that you not "stain" all veterans of the Vietnam War with the foolishness of the "Veterans Vietnam Restoration Project." Such "projects" do not reflect the attitude of the vast majority of the veterans of the war, nor do they reflect the sentiments of the average veteran.
The notion of reperations is, by and large, a foolish one. If white middle class men need to relieve themselves of guilt, they might try going to God. That is, after all, what the Christian religion is all about.
The Veterans Vietman Project: for people who truly believe "Platoon" was an acturate depiction of Vietman.
Edited by - honorman on 02/07/2003 12:14:40 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Magneton
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 2/7/2003 4:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Honorman, I agree that reparation, if it is only a means of relieving guilt, is misguided. The principle that I was trying to illustrate is that repair of actual damages is part of the process of reconciliation. Part of the challenge is to examine ourselves to determine which category our efforts fall into.
Magneton
Home is not where you live, but where they understand you. - Christian Morgenstern | | Back to Top | | |
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graygirl
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 2/9/2003 6:37 AM (GMT -6) | | The msg at WHC this week on this topic was a powerful word. i for one needed to be reeling back into the heart of the gospel:reconciliation. I recommend listening to it on the web if you are able.....it was very good.
GG
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 2/9/2003 11:04 AM (GMT -6) | | honorman:
quote:
The Bible calls us to reconcilation, the Bible does not call us to reconcilation with any particular group, or to pick out a group for a certain reason, but we are called to love all. The attitude that we should somehow pick out a certain group and love them and reconcil to them because that group was abused in the past assumes a responsibility that I do not believe the Bible calls us to. To love fully one must love individually and see people as distinct individuals, not love them because they are part of any group.
Electra: Whether we are Christians or not, we have some degree of freedom over which relationships we pursue, as well as the quality of time and energy we invest in them. Christians are called to use our freedom to build up the whole (choosing to invest in reconciling brokenness within the whole), rather than default to pursuing our own self-interest (choosing to invest in those just like us regardless of the whole) (see Gal. 5 &6). Of course it is good to love those just like us (e.g. family, friends), but this is the kind of love that everyone defaults to, with varying degrees of success. Are Christians just called to be better at loving their family and friends? Or are they just more forgiven when they fail to love family and friends? Successfully loving family and friends and being forgiven when we fail to do so are both good things, but Christians are called to love all, as you note above. In limiting our scope to loving those just like us, we may actually be reinforcing division within the whole rather than reconciling it—without even knowing it. The Christian call to love all increases responsibility for divisions which separate individuals within particular groups rather than excusing us from it. Loving all requires building reconciling relationships between whichever particular groups within the whole suffer the effects of division. In our American context, black and white people suffer (in different ways and degrees) from our historical and ongoing division.
quote:
I would highly recommend Curtis DeYoung's book Reconciliation: Our Greatest Challenge--Our Only Hope, which I read after his awesome message at WHC. He speaks in a very practical way of how we can go beyond what he calls "cheap reconciliation."
Thanks for the reference, Magneton.
quote:
The msg at WHC this week on this topic was a powerful word. i for one needed to be reeling back into the heart of the gospel:reconciliation. I recommend listening to it on the web if you are able.....it was very good.
Good call, graygirl!
Electra
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8
Edited by - Electra on 02/09/2003 4:13:03 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 2/10/2003 6:00 AM (GMT -6) | | I thought there would be more discussion here after the locals heard the Smith/Boyd tag team main event!
One of the highlights of yesterday's sermon for me was the notion of servanthood. There was much discussion about needing forgiveness to work towards reconciliation, but that wasn't my area. Being a white male, I have a history that puts me in a privelaged position, a position of receiving privelage because of the cumulative actions of white males before me. Servanthood seemed to be the key aspect of reconciliation for me as a white male. I don't subscribe to the whole "white guilt" thing, but I do think that there needs to be some very specific concession made by white folks to lift up black folks. Servanthood whether it feels "natural" or not can make a difference. Reconciliation will happen by the ability of people to mimic Christ, when people are Christ to others. Christ was the ultimate servant. Agape-Loving, Caring, Honest, Forgiving....Reconciling.
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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