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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
 
   Posted 4/8/2003 5:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I sent this off to O'Reilly in response to a guest he had on his show today
quote:

Dr. Singer’s Utilitarian Mores…

I was amazed at seeing Dr. Singer on the O’Reilly Factor sounding off on what is and isn’t ethical vis-à-vis current American policy, when he advocates that a newborn baby shouldn’t be considered human until twenty-eight days after it is born, still giving the parents a choice of “aborting” (infanticide) him or her. He even goes as far as making a moral equivalence between a pig and a newborn child. What a disgrace to our brave men in the military that such a man is given a forum to speak of them! (Dr. Singers stance on infanticide – stated above – can be found on pages 160-161, and 231 of his book “Writings on an Ethical Life.”)


Any Thoughts?



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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
 
   Posted 4/15/2003 8:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In my view, Singer is a liberal fundamentalist. However, his views do show the arbitrariness of birth as the legal definition of when human life begins.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Arrogance that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
 
   Posted 5/7/2003 10:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
DLW, the following is from a debate I am currently having elsewhere:
################################
You keep bringing up religion, so I will hit this head on. Natural Law only is effective if there is an Ultimate, personal Being that has created us. This is how the founders could write and sign the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. They knew that everyone deserved these freedoms. However, if you reject this Ultimate, who’s to say that infanticide is morally wrong, or homosexuality, for example:
quote:

Steven Pinker, professor of psychology at the Massachusetts Institute of Psychology and a leading popularizer of evolutionary psychology, says it is a genetic imperative. Writing in the New York Times, Pinker argued that what he termed neonaticide is not attributable to mental illness because “it has been practiced and acceptable in most cultures throughout history.” Rather, he went on to say, a capacity for neonaticide is hard-wired into the maternal genes by our evolutionary history.


Or take these excerpts from the book, Writings on an Ethical Life, by Peter Singer (the Ira W. De Camp Professor of Bioethics at Princeton University’s Center for Human Value). I am curious if you agree with him or not?:
    “We have already seen that the strength of the conservative position lies in the difficulty liberals have in pointing to a morally significant line of demarcation between an embryo and a newborn baby. The standard liberal position needs to be able to point to some such line, because liberals usually hold that it is permissible to kill an embryo or fetus [all nine-months an abortion is legal] but not a baby. I have argued that the life of a fetus (and even more plainly, of an embryo) is of no greater value than the life of a nonhuman animal at a similar level of rationality, self-consciousness, awareness, capacity to feel, etc., and that since no fetus is a person no fetus has the same claim to life as a person. Now it must be admitted that these arguments apply to the newborn baby as much as to the fetus. A week-old baby is not a rational and self-conscious being, and there are many nonhuman animals whose rationality, self-consciousness, awareness, capacity to feel, and so on, exceed that of a human baby a week or month old. If the fetus does not have the same claim to life as a person, it appears that the newborn baby does not either, and the life of a newborn baby is of less value to it than the life of a pig, a dog, or a chimpanzee is to a nonhuman animal. Thus while my position on the status of fetal life may be acceptable to many, the implications of this position for the status of newborn life are at odds with the virtually unchallenged assumption that the life of a newborn baby is as sacrosanct as that of an adult.” (p. 160-161)

    “In our book Should the Baby Live? my colleague Helga Kuhse and I suggested that a period of twenty-eight days after birth might be allowed before an infant is accepted as having the same right to life as others. This is clearly well before the infant could have a sense of its own existence over time, and would allow a couple to decide that it is better not to continue with a life that has begun very badly.”
    (p. 231)
Would you agree with Pinker’s and Singer’s statements? Is infanticide morally wrong? Or just culturally wrong, and nor really morally wrong? You are equating animal sexual behavior to that of human, much like Pinker and Singer.
################################

When do you define life as beginning?


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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
 
   Posted 5/7/2003 11:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is really a fascinating issue. I completely agree that Singer's logic is right on. I just disagree with the result. I believe that life begins at the beginning of pregnancy. That's an easy line to draw. The pro-choice crowd, as he says, can't really make draw a line. But if we are defining life as "self-consciousness"- then a baby doesn't have it.
By the same token, neither do certain retarded people, people in comas, etc.
By the way, I believe that people may have more "value" than animals in some respects. But many people say that b/c animals may not have self-consciousness, they do not have a right to life. They do! If your'e saying that it is NOT self-consciousness that makes it protectable life, (as a pro-lifer must), then you must agree that just b/c animals don't have self-consciousness, that does not make them automatically not entitled to a right to life.

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is true."
- James Branch Cabell
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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
 
   Posted 5/8/2003 10:05 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
But as I see it, as soon as the zygote forms, that person is human. That zygote has all the genetic information and ability to become self-conscious, thus, at the time of the zygote, by all intent-and-purpose, should be considered to have it. No new information is added to the baby who has just been conceived, it is whole. It [self-awareness] is already in its nature. An animal, at the time of conception, does not have the genetic ability to become self-conscious – or aware of itself and its actions and consequences.

This is why when a baby dies a natural pre-mature death, it is still not what should be. When something is evil, it is because the situation lacks what we know should be. And in the case of the human baby, its nature tells us what should be.

Using some of the logic from the extreme-left, a baby cannot take care of itself until a certain age, should we consider the young-child a viable human? Some extremists say no.
    “The most merciful thing a large family can do for one of its infant members is to kill it.” - Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood

    “What we are saying is that abortion becomes one of the choices, and the person has the right to choose whatever it is best that they need as necessary and best for them in the situation for which they find themselves, be it abortion, to keep, to adopt, to sell, to leave in a dumpster, to put on your porch, whatever; it’s the persons right to choose” - Michael Tooley, professor of philosophy at the University of Western Australia.
The two books I recommend to thinkers, are Politically Correct Death: Answering Arguments for Abortion Rights, by Francis J. Beckwith; and The Abortion Controversy: 25 Years After Roe v. Wade, by Francis Beckwith & Louis Pojman.

Its sickly comical, a vulture egg can be protected by Federal law once insemination happens, but a human child cannot. I have been thinking about getting a bumper sticker made that read, “Jesus Is Coming Back… And He’s Pissed!”




Edited by - SeanG on 05/08/2003 3:09:28 PM
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AlyoshaKaramazov
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 49
 
   Posted 5/8/2003 7:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Okay, Sean, if the planned parenthood and Tooley quotes are accurate, that's some of the saddest garbage I've ever read. I'm with you, the only non-arbitrary point to define a human life is conception. I would like to also add to your list of recommended reading, Peter Kreeft's "The Unaborted Socrates." This is an amazing book that will educate and equip anyone who puts the time in to read it. Also, it's written in a dialogue format that is fun to read.

"Take the place of my heart, till I become a stranger to my life."
--Jars of Clay
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
 
   Posted 5/9/2003 3:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For a description of my views and reasons, see the link I have on an alternative faith-based abortion position.

I do not set out a clear-cut line for when human life begins and I have problems with conception. In my position paer, I raise some scientific facts that complicate the notion that it begins when the zygote is formed. For example, if two zygotes are fertilized simultaneously and subsequently collide within a couple of days of they merge and become one human being. Also a woman's womb does commonly absorb the zygote in the first couple of weeks after fertilization. This could be all tragic abortions, or it could reflect how the womb is unable to recognize the zygote for what it is as opposed to some other organic object floating around inside the womb.

My view is that Singer's line of reasoning neglects how we recognize ourselves in the human fetus/new-born baby and form expectations about what they will develop into. My view is that the human fetus become a human life, receives its soul, after the first month and before the 20th week. I believe that as Christians we should deal with this sort of ambiguity by practicing conservatism. But that is all kingom ethics for members of a Church. I think that with regards to the legal redefinition of when human life begins that the wise course is gradualism as I describe in my link and, of course, non-political means of encouraging people not to have abortions.

I shared some of my views with a Mexican student who was the floor-supervisor of the dorm I lived in last semester. He shared with me how he and his ex-girlfriend had had sex and she had gotten pregnant and they had had an abortion a month after conception. He was really concerned that I would think he was a bad person for having caused an abortion(something that I was impressed with).

I told him that the sooner one has an abortion, the better, and that having a baby together was a bad reason for getting married and that it is tragic for a baby to grow up with one parent or a broken-family. I then told him that it still was a sin, but that we all make mistakes and that the important thing was to avoid these mistakes in the future. That went over well with him.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
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