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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 6/11/2003 11:08 AM (GMT -6) |   | Now that Ontario has legalized gay marriage, I was wondering what DLW or anyone else thought about that. I guess it's been legal in Denmark, Belgium and the netherlands.
While it seems the argument for awhile has been that gays cannot get married - so they don't have any way to legitimately express their love - if they can legally marry - is it legit then once they're married?
Just curious. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/11/2003 1:03 PM (GMT -6) | | The root problem is not so much with homosexuality but general social views regarding sexuality. As I mentioned in my posts I see gay rights activists using sexual determinism and a general libertarian view towards sex, where it is a fun form of exercise whose nasty physiological consequences can be circumvented thanks to science.
I see this as a degradation of sex, which should be a sacrament for the trinity, an echo of that love as Modes put it in sex in heaven link.
So the real problem is not whether or not homosexuals get legal recognition for their relationships, but whether they will continue to propagandize gay-rights along with the views listed above as part of the cultural wars.
I think that there should be legal rules surrounding Gay marriages designed to encourage long-term commitments and making divorces more complicated. This reflects my basic heterosexist position that guys whether straight or gay do not naturally levitate towards to long term commitments but that only such commitments are worthy of state support.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/16/2003 3:43 AM (GMT -6) | | ReasonableDoubt
quote:
While it seems the argument for awhile has been that gays cannot get married - so they don't have any way to legitimately express their love - if they can legally marry - is it legit then once they're married?
Just curious.
If a justice of the peace marries two or more people, does it automatically follow that God considers them married?
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ReasonableDoubt
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Total Posts : 655
| Posted 6/16/2003 4:12 AM (GMT -6) | | | yes, I believe that if a person is legally married by a judge or a minister, God acknowledges the legality of the union. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/16/2003 5:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
yes, I believe that if a person is legally married by a judge or a minister, God acknowledges the legality of the union.
Hey, I got a question for you (it's not a trap), I was just wondering what others think. I was reading about the Episcopals, one of their churches just ordained a gay pastor. The protest against this is coming from the Asian and African Episcopal churches. In other words, the non-white, non-western Episcopal churches don't like the western churches imposing their pro-homosexual agenda on them. It used to be that the liberal west was against imposing western values on non-western churches, now they are doing the same thing. What do you think about this issue? Maybe "imposing" isn't the word, but "allowing" instead.
I'm wondering about this, partly because of the conterfactual thread as well. I see western logic as being hopelessly bivalent (binary) and wonder what theology would have developed had Paul gone east instead of west.
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Laplace
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 6/16/2003 7:58 AM (GMT -6) | | At first I thought from the subject that this topic would be feckless, but it does pose an interesting question. The question of the legitimacy of marriage when it's not within what God prescribes.
The closest analogy is probably polygamy. Is it a "sin", or just a social norm that is less than the ideal God had in mind. In the OT, there were many polygamous marriages. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, etc. Were these men "sinning"? There was never any direct accusation of adultery and even some advocates point to 2 Sam 12:8 as validation (but taken out of context I believe).
Let's take a brief divergence to another "is it sin" isssue: Divorce. In the OT law, divorcing your wife was not sinful as long as you got a certificate. It certainly wasn't preferred that divorce happened that way, but was tolerated. However, when Jesus got to the heart of the matter, He made it clear that on any other grounds than sexual immorality it was wrong (later qualified by Paul with abandonment. And wrestled since then regarding questions of abuse).
You could cover a number of similar Biblical topics. Slavery: Was it "wrong"? Children through handmaidens (Hagar, Rachel/Leah's handmaidens, etc.). The list goes on.
We know that 2 wrongs don't make a right. Meaning marrying an unbeliever is sin, but doesn't justify a non-Biblical divorce. So perhaps the question is, since we KNOW that a gay marriage is certainly wrong in God's eyes, what should they do if they recognize it's wrong?
I believe you can answer this question by focusing on the difference between "societal norms" (polygamy, slavery, etc.) and the clear breaking of God's will. Given the evidence, it seems that slavery, polygamy, etc. was not ideal, but tolerated in God's eyes and had laws governing the behavior for the sake of the "innocent" (wives who would be treated poorly in bad marriages and servants who would be either killed outright or abused, treated less than human). At that time God's people were not ready for the type of ideal freedom in the Law that came with Christ.
Now, does gay marriage fall into this category? No. It is clear that same-sex sexual relations are sin in any context. There is no evidence of any "working with" this issue.
But now the question is, should a gay marriage be dissolved like marrying a nonbeliever? I think the root of this question can be answered, is there EVIDENCE of repetenance. Someone can truly be sorry for a wrong, but repentence requires action as an overflowing of what's taking place in the heart. Doesn't mean they have to immediately conquer a sin like certain addictions, but there has to be that "effort".
In the case of the unbiblical marriage repentence would be characterized by obeying the commandments to love your wife as Christ loved the church, and to be mutually submissive, and to treat her/him as if she were a Christian wife (not in every single aspect, but you get the idea), raising godly children, etc.
In a gay marriage however, if one or both persons knows what they did is wrong, how can they show their repentence? Certainly NOT by continuing in sexual relations. And if there is no sexual relations, what is the point of the marriage? As for raising children, it does not help the them to be TOLD that gay marriages are wrong and yet for them to SEE it in their lives. It's like the movie Road to Perdition. How could the hitman dad tell his son not to pursue his line of work if he himself did not renounce it?
This leaves us with the conclusion that within a gay marriage, those involved are not in God's will, either at the start, or at any time during the marriage, and are in perpetual sin. This can only be "made right" by a divorce, which does not make it a "2 wrongs" contradiction because in God's eyes, the marriage is a sham (since by definition marriage is between a man and a woman). That also implies I believe in God's eyes they are NOT married in the sense we recognize as such.
"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/16/2003 8:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
This leaves us with the conclusion that within a gay marriage, those involved are not in God's will, either at the start, or at any time during the marriage, and are in perpetual sin.
It is not even a "marriage." Marriage is invented/instituted by God going back to BEFORE the "creation of Eve." It was FOR THAT PURPOSE that God took Eve from Adam's side. Marriage IS that union of two who are together ONE WHOLE. God's commands with regards to marriage go back even further than the existence of the two genders.
No Canadian legistlative body can change that at all.
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 06/16/2003 1:52:55 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 6/16/2003 9:04 AM (GMT -6) | | | Slavery is unequivocally wrong, immoral, and a sin. The owning of a person as property is wrong no matter by whom or in what era. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/16/2003 11:45 AM (GMT -6) | | As of last count, word has it that 22 gay couples, within a few days of the court ruling, have come over here to Windsor and obtained a marriage license.
Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16
Edited by - BBBCanada on 06/16/2003 4:50:23 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/17/2003 2:06 AM (GMT -6) | | BBBrandon
quote:
As of last count, word has it that 22 gay couples, within a few days of the court ruling, have come over here to Windsor and obtained a marriage license.
We were just up in Vancoooover visiting my wife's sister and family. Her hubby is the editor for the B.C. Christian News (or some title like that) and were talking about the issue a bit. I take it you're in Ontario.
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/17/2003 2:08 AM (GMT -6) | | At least there won't be any gay shotgun marriages.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/17/2003 2:16 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/17/2003 2:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I take it you're in Ontario.
You take it right oh smaaart grasshaaaapper! I'm next to Deeetroit. We are almost another burb of the Detroit and surrounding area. As an American, when you come here to Windsor? You feel as though you are in Canada. You feel as though you have REALLY changed countries. Windsor? Clean. Detroit? Dirty.
However, if you LIVE here, you feel as though you are a "Canadian/American." Just like there are Pentecostals and Baptists? But there are also, "Bapticostals?" Same diff.
When I get up to the London Ontario area which is two hours from here, then I feel as though I'm in Canada. Now Laika. If you ever come driving over here? You can make a right turn on a red light. Ok? You Americans, don't forget that. 
Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/17/2003 4:56 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/17/2003 5:24 AM (GMT -6) | | BBBrandon
quote:
Now Laika. If you ever come driving over here? You can make a right turn on a red light. Ok? You Americans, don't forget that.
Dude, I just spent a hellacious day driving around Vancooooover and Stanley Park on the first sunny, summer Saturday in Vancooooover.
Don't start with me aboot Canuck-istan and it's lack of freeways and logical freeway entrances/exits. I DO make right turns on red lights. I also (evidently by Canuck-istani reactions) show signs of weakness by signalling my turns and showing politeness on the road.
And what's with the babes in Vancooooover? Did the government relocate them out there?
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/17/2003 7:29 AM (GMT -6) | | I've just got one thing I really want to say to you Canadians----
Quit bringing over your doggone quarters!
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/17/2003 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | We should go easy on BBBrandon, he can't help his Canadian-ness. For like the Psalmist, he can claim:
"Behold, I was brought forth in Ontario,
And in Canada my mother conceived me."
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/17/2003 8:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Don't forget the PentaBaptists(I got an uncle who is one of those).
Canada, England and Mexico are well on their way to becoming the 51st and 52nd and 53rd states...(and this makes me so happy since I can get virtually any fast-food in any of the above...).
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/17/2003 10:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Don't start with me aboot Canuck-istan and it's lack of freeways and logical freeway entrances/exits.
Oh really? Like you should talk! How 'bout them Michigan left turns? Hmmmm??? First you go past the light/street you want to turn left on. You get into the left turning lane. And then you take a "Uee" to go back to turn right on the street that you past in the first place when you wanted to make a left! HA! Riiiight!
quote:
And what's with the babes in Vancooooover? Did the government relocate them out there?
Is THAT where they're at. I was wonder'n! 
quote:
Quit bringing over your doggone quarters!
Talk about quarters. I am trying to collect them. All fifty states! By the way! I know how many states there are in the US! Do you know how many provinces there are in Canada?
quote:
We should go easy on BBBrandon, he can't help his Canadian-ness. For like the Psalmist, he can claim:
"Behold, I was brought forth in Ontario,
And in Canada my mother conceived me."
How do you know I was conceived in Canada?
quote:
Canada, England and Mexico are well on their way to becoming the 51st and 52nd and 53rd states...
I can't wait! Praise da Lord! 
Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/17/2003 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | | By the way...quote:
I DO make right turns on red lights. I also (evidently by Canuck-istani reactions) show signs of weakness by signalling my turns and showing politeness on the road.
Well, we are surprised considering what we get over here from De' toi! Hee, hee, hee...
Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/18/2003 2:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Googly gave me this:
provinces and territories
Alberta
British Columbia
Manitoba
New Brunswick
Newfoundland and Labrador
Northwest Territories
Nova Scotia
Nunavut
Ontario
Prince Edward Island
Québec
Saskatchewan
Yukon
That's a lot. Probably around 10 people per province at that rate.
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/26/2003 8:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Thirteen Absolutely Fresh New Topics For Bridal Magazines
Some changes we can expect as a result of the government’s decision to back same-sex marriages.
1. Wedding vows featuring the question, “Do you take this man/woman (circle one) to be your lawfully wedded spouse?
2. Creation of the term, “bridesmen.”
3. More “2 for 1” wedding dress specials.
4. Bridesmaid shoes available in size 13.
5. Male strippers finally getting work at stags.
6. Wedding DJs scrambling to stock up on Barbara Streisand records.
7. The LPGA moves to Canada
8. Men finally get to go to a party where they make a hat from gift ribbons and a paper plate.
9. New wedding day tradition: Bridesmaids take bride to up scale salon for pedicure and a buzz cut.
10. Priest presiding over gay weddings getting jealous of newly weds. (My favorite). HA!
11. Big increase in the number of wedding parties renting white stretch-Harleys.
12. No. 1 gay wedding gift? Season 4 of Will and Grace on DVD.
13. No. 1 lebsian wedding gift? Hockey equipment.
Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/26/2003 1:01 PM (GMT -6) | | bbBBrandon cuts a rug
quote:
Thirteen Absolutely Fresh New Topics For Bridal Magazines
13. No. 1 lebsian wedding gift? Hockey equipment.
14. Shotgun weddings, a thing of the past?
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 8/2/2003 9:18 AM (GMT -6) | | I took this from another board. It presents the view of a Christian leader who is opposed to the legalization of Christian Marriages in Canada.
I'm Canadian, a pastor, and am involved with the EFC (Evangelical Fellowship of Canada) which is seeking intervener status at Supreme Court level in this whole matter. Let me explain why a lot of Canadians are upset about this.
The process has been very undemocratic. In 1999, our parliament passed a bill that assured Canadians that the definition of marriage would remain unaltered. It was a traditional definition; marriage is the union to qa man and a woman, to the exclusion of all others.
In the year 2000, in the runup to elections, the Liberals promised again to uphold that definition. In addition, they pledged to do all they can to uphold that definition.
Now they have reneged on that promise. Here's how.
It was not our elected officials, but three Provincial Court Justices who ruled that our definition of marriage is unconstitutional.
Our government (i.e. the Liberals, headed by Jean Chretien, (French word for Christian)) decided not to appeal this ruling to the Supreme Court of Canada. Now the parliament has to come up with a law that defines marriage in a way that pleases both heterosexuals and homosexuals and the Courts.
Election is coming up, and the Liberal party is beginning to divide over this issue. It's a dog's breakfast.
Spin off issues that will become huge:
1. Bill C-250: an anti-hate legislation which is on teh dock, set for 3rd reading this fall. It has the very real potential of criminalizing mere dissent with the homosexual lifestyle. That affects anyone preaching against the gay lifestyle in their own church, never mind on the street somewhere. Note how already, the accusation of homophobe come out when one only discusses the issue, without any evident fear.
2. Educational: I predict a massive move towards private schooling; public schools will NOT be able to teach or hold one type of marriage as preferable over another. Family education curriculum will HAVE to embed gay marriage as mainstream, as normal as heterosexual marriage. I can see teachers losing their jobs over this one
3. Churches are being told that their freedoms will be protected... but we have no confidence in the promises our government makes.. and we have gays on record as saying they will come after dissenting churches to force the issue in the courts if we refuse to solemnize gay marriages.
Pray for Canada...
I also have a question for anyone who cares to respond. It would help me in my work with the EFC.
If your government were to allow same sex marriage (under the same laws and definitions that heteros get married under) how would that affect your church, your pastor? Many pastors in Canada are actually considering returning their credentials, and to do strictly the religious ceremony, forcing the govt to provide civil servants to do the legal ceremony, much like they do in Europe.
If they want a total separation of church and state, then clergy need to quit acting as agents of the govt in this business of marriage. I haven't come to that point yet, but we'll see where this ride takes us..
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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