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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > Women, Homosexuality, and Slavery | Forum Quick Jump
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Semeia
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 10/24/2001 8:57 AM (GMT -6) |   | Mephi, one minor point. You said: "Accountability is not any "I'm ok, you're ok." type thinking". Many people will throw that phrase out there as if it refers to "If you will say my behavior is O.K., I'll say your behavior is O.K." The phrase was popularized by a book of the same title from the late sixties, by Thomas Harris. The book is about Transactional Analysis, a form of therapy developed by Eric Berne, which has influenced many areas of psychology. When you hear of the Parent-Adult-Child states of a person (psychological states, not stages of life) it comes from Transactional Analysis. The four positions that a person can take in life are: - 1) I'M NOT O.K.-YOU'RE O.K.
- 2) I'M NOT O.K.-YOU'RE NOT O.K.
- 3) I'M O.K.-YOU'RE NOT O.K.
- 4) I'M O.K.-YOU'RE O.K.
The first three positions are unconcious and taken early in life. The fourth position is a decision we make. "The first three positions are based on feelings. The fourth is based on thought, faith, and the wager of action."
The reason I bother to bring this up is because in all the psychology I have read, Transactional Analysis is actually the most profoundly Christian approach I have found. There is a chapter at the back of the above mentioned book that relates it to Christianity. I would take it even further and say that the I'M O.K.-YOU'RE O.K. position is the one Christ on the cross asks us to take. So it makes me crazy that this phrase has been taken up in Christian circles to stand for wishy-washy thinking and a lack of moral values.
If it makes you feel any better, I gave Doc this same lecture after he used the phrase in a pejorative way in a sermon. I also gave him the book, but I'm sure he never read it!!
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard
Edited by - Semeia on 10/24/2001 2:09:52 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Jewgrass
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| Posted 10/24/2001 11:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Faith said: "To a large extent, we can't help the way we were made (tendency toward depression, etc...) so we can't help our sin. But shouldn't we TRY???"
Its not "to a large extent" that we can't control how we were made, but we have NO control over it. Are people born homosexual? YES! In the same way that people (including me) are born with the tendency to have sex with multiple women, become alcoholics, etc. Some people are born with mean tempers... do they choose this? No! So whats the answer? To go on living in sin and thank God for the grace in Jesus Christ? NO! The only way we can live outside of sin is through the great sacrifice of Jesus Christ and allowing God to work in your life. Before stomping out the sin, one must fix the root of the problem: our relationship with Christ.
"Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers-none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God. There was a time when some of you were just like that, but now your sins have been washed away, and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for you." 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Trosie said: "A person may slip back a bit into their old sin nature BUT a repentant heart will be set in striving toward godliness."
Although I agree with this, I believe the emphasis is too much on the self. We get our power from God. True, we must allow God to work in our lives on this point, but he supplies the power to continue to persevere. We are freed from the bondage of slavery because of revelation from God (Rom 1:7, 8:29, Galatians 1:15, etc). We continue to defeat sin through the power God grants us and uses through us.
As far as judgement goes, "It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning..." 1 Corinthians 5:12
--Greg Burris, gburris.jewgrass@mail.utexas.edu
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 10/24/2001 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Semeia: "If it makes you feel any better, I gave Doc this same lecture after he used the phrase in a pejorative way in a sermon. I also gave him the book, but I'm sure he never read it!!"
Doc: True, I have not (yet). But it gives me great assurance to know that you do not judge me on account of this, and to know that "I'm okay" and "you're okay". Okay? 
(It's just that the expression is such a convenient way to express the total relativism that permeates our culture).
Doc
ps. Semeia, you're last two postings were wonderful essays. The Bonhoffer quote is the type of thing one has to chew on for a long period of time to get. I don't think I quite get it yet.
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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n/a
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| Posted 10/24/2001 1:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Women, homosexuality and slavery! Is that a new soap opera????
"Evolution is both fact and a theory.It is a fact that evolutionary change took place. And evolution is also a theory that seeks to explain the detailed mechanism behind that change." Kenneth R. Miller | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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| Posted 10/24/2001 5:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Greg Burris: As far as judgement goes, "It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning..." 1 Corinthians 5:12
I was leading a bible study today with a group of senior citizens and this topic just happened to come up in the discussion. Two main points they offered from their years of wisdom are:
*We can judge the sin but NOT the sinner.
*The greatest command is to love. We can judge the action but are commanded to love the person.
I'm okay, you're okay, he's okay, she's okay, they're okay, my dog's okay ... I guess I'm glad that we're all okay!
Trosie
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Semeia
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| Posted 10/25/2001 6:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Writerdad: I don't think it matters how homosexuals view their sexual preferences, either good or bad, or less than ideal. I believe it matters what God thinks of them...
Semeia: If you think it doesn’t matter how homosexuals view their sexual preference, why do you think it matters what you think of them? If what matters is what God thinks of them, shouldn’t it be left up to God? Doesn't the Bonhoeffer quote illustrate this beautifully?
quote:
Writerdad: Oh, I think it should be noted that just because one identifies oneself as a Christian doesn't mean one is. I believe Jesus said that many will say on that, "Lord, Lord..." and he will say to them, "I never knew you." Just because one believes oneself to be a Christian doesn't make it so. If that were true we would need to include Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pens, Mormons, Christian Scientists, in fact just about anyone, simply because they "identify themselves as Christians."
Personally, I welcome the questiong of scripture. Its how one draws closer to God. But simply posting scripture in a way to make your point is not questioning scripture, particularing when one takes several differenting scriptures out of context, makes no real comment on any of them, except to make a prior believed point.
Semeia: In what way is the scripture you quote (out of context) above not to make a “prior believed point”? You imply that Christian homosexuals will not be recognized by God, and you list other types of Christians you believe will not be recognized by God, but you fail to give a single piece of evidence for why you hold that opinion. (Although the scripture you quote DOES say that God will not recognize some people who call him, you give no evidence for why the people in your list would not be recognized by God.) The full scripture says:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’
First, let’s look at the context. This comes almost at the end of the Sermon on the Mount. The entire thrust of the Sermon on the Mount is Jesus telling us that we cannot judge the other person’s sin as worse than our own. He tells us being angry at our brother is the same as murder, lust in our heart is the same as adultery, swearing to anything is the same as swearing to God, etc. He says that it’s not enough that we love our neighbor; we must also love our enemy. He tells us not be pious in front of others (in other words, do not try to show how you are “good” and righteous in comparison to others – because God does not reward that kind of behavior). He says ‘Do not judge, so that you may not be judged.’ He says do not worry about your material needs, or your future. Again and again he focuses on the listener, and asks us to look inward at our own present doing of his will. Again and again he blocks us from looking at our neighbor, our enemy, our good works, our earthly reward, our future, or anything else that would distract us from in the present doing the will of God.
Now that we have established the context, let’s return to the scripture you quoted. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.” Suddenly this takes on a completely different flavor. In the light of what has come before, we can’t possibly use this scripture to beat someone else up about how THEY are falling short. In fact, to do so would be to go against everything Jesus has said up to this point. What he says next confirms this: “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’ The three examples he gives concerning how people will try to justify themselves to him are: prophesying, casting out demons, and deeds of power. This is a very interesting list. Each of these things is something that people do in the name of Christ to “fix” the other guy. Each of these things is a “public” show of Christianity. Again and again in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus has shown us that the important work of the kingdom happens for the most part privately, in the inner heart of the listener. He specifically asks us to hide our piety, and not make a public show of it. Now when we look back to the first line, we can hear where the emphasis is: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my father in heaven." He has already established where our focus should be: on our OWN doing of his will. It’s interesting that two thousand years after these words were spoken, psychologists of every stripe have come to the same conclusion: you can’t change anyone but yourself.
More to come,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard
Edited by - Semeia on 10/25/2001 11:37:35 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Cibertus
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| Posted 10/25/2001 7:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Mephi:
I put this title because this is what I think this is coming down to. See, many people look at the phrase "Don't judge people" and EQUATE that with "Don't make any evaluations of people's beliefs and behaviors." Then the said people clammor that we human beings can't live without "judging". And I would say the same thing...if the ideas were, indeed, equivalent. But they are not. I believe that one can make evaluations of people's beliefs and behaviors without being judgmental. How? Accountability.
Thanks for pointing that out Mephi. Most people don't make a distinction here and there needs to be one Otherwise the logical end of "thou shalt not judge," results in the sanction of a person's evaluation/thinking of good and evil.
Just to add something else into the mix here on the subject of accountability vs. judgement.
Typically we visualize judgement as a courtroom or the great white throne judgement where the books are open and God sits on the throne and all the people of the earth come filing past and God lists their sins on this huge projector screen for all to read.
But there is this idea that judgement (another meaning of the term, not Mephi’s use of it) is instantaneous and self-inflicted. I’ve recently been toying with the idea that God’s form of judgement may not require even a word to be uttered. It requires only pure existence. So in a situation between God and man/woman—sinful person stands before God and by sheer force of the dichotomy would pronounce judgement on the guilty party. And if we look at judgement in this way it is more understandable why God told Moses, “nobody can see me and live” Ex. 33. Or even the strange account of Uzzah, who was killed when he touched the ark of the covenant, while they were moving it. (2 Sam 6:6) I’ve run across the following excerpt from Schwobel, in God: Action and Revelation, which expresses this idea pretty well.
Through the content of God’s self-disclosure its recipients are confronted with the commission of created personal being to exercise their created freedom in obedience to the will of God and they receive the promise of created personhood that the actualization of this commission rests on no other condition than the acknowledgement of God’s grace as the ground of the possibility of created freedom. In the confrontation with the demand of personhood and the encounter with the promise for personhood the self-failure of fallen humanity is unveiled as with the promise for personhood the self-failure of fallen humanity is unveiled as sin and the possibility of self-fulfillment is promised as gospel. In the confrontation with the demand of personhood and the encounter with the promise for personhood the self-failure of fallen humanity is unveiled as sin and the possibility of self-fulfillment is promised as gospel. The fact that the recipients of revelation are addressed in God’s self-disclosure in commission and promise includes not only that humans are destined to be persons, but also that they can be held accountable for their destiny and are able to actualize this call to personhood in self-failure and self-fulfillment.
Practically applied, living as God designed a person to live (righteously), pronounces its own judgement on those the person lives amongst. I come from a tradition which emphasizes this type of “witness.” Not a word needs to be spoken.
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Semeia
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| Posted 10/25/2001 7:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Cibertus, you said: quote:
Practically applied, living as God designed a person to live (righteously), pronounces its own judgement on those the person lives amongst. I come from a tradition which emphasizes this type of “witness.” Not a word needs to be spoken.
Although I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence: "not a word needs to be spoken", could you offer some scriptural support for your claim that a person's righteous living somehow "pronounces 'judgment' on those the person lives amongst"? I don't see it, and I would be personally horrified if my doing God's will at any point in time was a judgment on someone else.
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard
Edited by - Semeia on 10/25/2001 3:13:10 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Cibertus
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| Posted 10/25/2001 10:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
...somehow "pronounces 'judgment' on those the person lives amongst"? I don't see it, and I would be personally horrified if my doing God's will at any point in time was a judgment on someone else.
I’m sure you would be, if you are using the common street definition of the word judgement along with all its negative connotations and suggestions of political correctness. BUT, for me, I’m not using that definition of the term but rather applying Schwobel’s system onto a different facet of the term judgement. Maybe that’s not allowed but I don’t know any better.
For me, I'd say, The closest Swebel gets to saying the word judgement is “In the confrontation with the demand of personhood and the encounter with the promise for personhood the self-failure of fallen humanity is unveiled as with the promise for personhood the self-failure of fallen humanity is unveiled as sin ”
For me, I think we can reduce that to just one word if we define our terms. At least I would hope so.
The Bible would use more base terms (for me I wanna be politically correct, ya know  ) than I would for the application of this situation.
21If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: 22For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee. Proverbs 25:21, 23.
And also conceptually, this idea (for me, I would say) makes sense out of the horrible judgement type God we encounter in the old testament.
For me, for now, That’s all the Bible verses I can think of specifically that apply directly but he stories that parallel—are in the hundreds.
BTW thanks for the techno. pointers.
It was all good for me.
Cibertus
Edited by - cibertus on 10/25/2001 3:51:52 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
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| Posted 10/25/2001 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Sememia: I don't believe it matters whatsoever what I think of homosexuals, but if we are to preach the good news and people are to be saved from their sins and WE, as Christians, are the ones who do the preaching (which I believe the church is called to do), how will ANYONE KNOW that they are sinners unless we, as the church and God's mouthpiece tell them (Hosea 4:6). We are called to preach the gospel. We called by God to bring people to God. Personally, if it were up to me, I wouldn't care what people did. But that is not the calling of the Christian. We are called to tell the truth, both the positive and the negative. If God calls something a sin and someone is doing it, for their sake we tell them so they can be reconcilled to God. How can one be reconcilled to God if one doesn't think one is a sinner, if a person doesn't know what they are doing is wrong?
Second, I didn't misquote that verse at all. My point was, in keeping with the verse, that there are those out there who will believe they are God's, but are not. My point was that just because someone claims to be a Christian, doesn't not mean they are, as that verse succinctly points out.
A further point could be added: what is the will of God for each person? To be Christlike. To live as Christ did? To live as Paul did. As Paul said: imtitate us...One wonders if homosexual behavior would be high on Paul's list of living Godly.
Finally, I have to mention that I truly believe there no (let me repeat) NO homosexual Christians. Just as I believe that there are no Christians who truly believe in their heart that its okay to lie, to steal, to commit adultery, I do not believe that any Christian could truly believe that homosexuality is right in God's eyes, because to be in a true relationship with God is to know what is right and wrong. I believe there are Christians who struggle with homosexual behavior, just as there are those who struggle with other sins. But to say in your heart that it is okay with God (or right with God) is to lack true understanding as to what God wants in one's life and therefore I would submit that they simply do not know God. Anyway, thats my take. Hey, since you said that you were going to do your take on Romans 1:26-27, Schmidt does a whole chapter on it in his book, Straight and Narrow. Its worth picking up. John 17:3 Harold
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Semeia
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| Posted 10/25/2001 11:33 AM (GMT -6) | |
Cibertus, you quote:
“In the confrontation with the demand of personhood and the encounter with the promise for personhood the self-failure of fallen humanity is unveiled as sin"
I have no idea how you see this as a definition of judgment. For it to be useful or even discussible you would have to connect the dots.
As for the scripture:
21If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: 22For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee. Proverbs 25:21, 23.
How does this show that one's doing God's will is a judgment on the other person? It shows that God rewards doing his will, and it shows that the other person won't like it--but that's a far cry from showing that the "doing God's will" is a judgment on them. There is no indication of God's attitude toward the "enemy" at all, only his attitude toward the one doing the good deed.
You mentioned that you hadn't fully thought this out--you were "toying" with the idea. The reason I react strongly is because it suggests a kind of "smugness" Christians can feel, that their good works are doing the job of judging others--they don't even have to say a word. It is the opposite of what Mephi was saying (I think...Mephi?).
It also goes against the point made by Bonhoeffer:
This does not mean, then, that the doer of the law is content with his own doing and that with a sidelong glance he calls upon God to be the judge of his sinful brother whom he himself is, unfortunately, not permitted to judge. There is really no such sidelong glance here, but there is only conduct which is appropriate to the law of God, namely the doing of the law, and it is only in this exclusive concentration upon one’s own doing of the law, without any other thought in mind, that the law is given its due and is allowed to exercise its power also upon one’s brother. There does not therefore remain, in addition to action or through action, some ultimate possibility of judgment; action is and must continue to be the only possible attitude towards the law of God; any residue of judgment would disrupt this action entirely, and transmute it into false action, into hypocrisy.
Do you see the difference?
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
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| Posted 10/25/2001 11:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Semeia: I would further point out that I think you miss much of what Jesus is saying. Signs can point, but the main thing Jesus was stressing was these were not in relationship with him. "I never knew you<' he said, not you didn't do the will of my Father. His point is they weren't in relationship with him. I think you add an emphasis in their about "we should be concerned with our doing of his will." Jesus is simply pointing out those who are his. Those who do the will of his father. The verse has nothing to do with "our doing of his will," or that that is what we should ultimately be concerned with. The church has always been concerned with the world outside of itself, because Jesus was. Your interpretation to me suggests that we should not be concerned with what anyone is doing, only be concerned with ourselves. That is definitely not how Jesus lived his life. We are to live out lives outside of ourselves, loving God by living righteously, and loving our neighbors by serving them and by gentlely correcting them when they fall. I, personally, have been confronted several times in my life by loving brothers and sisters in Christ about sin that I knew was sin but was not dealing with. No one wants to hear such things because it is hard to admit one is wrong. But usually it is only when others loving confront us that we change. Most people will not be changed unless they are confronted by an outside source. And that is one of the things Christians are called to do...finally, I cannot change anyone. I have no desire to. I cannot even change myself. The changes comes when God works in the willing. What Christians do is facilitate the work of God. But we do not do God's work. God is the one who brings change. John 17:3 Harold
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Semeia
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| Posted 10/25/2001 11:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Writerdad said: quote:
how will ANYONE KNOW that they are sinners unless we, as the church and God's mouthpiece tell them?
How do you know that you're a sinner?
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard
Edited by - Semeia on 10/25/2001 5:10:39 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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| Posted 10/25/2001 12:29 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
"how will ANYONE KNOW that they are sinners unless we, as the church and God's mouthpiece tell them?"
quote:
"How do you know that you're a sinner?"
Can I pipe in for a minute? I believe we have been called to bring the TRUTH to people and expose darkness and sin. We are NOT to judge the sinner but we are mandated to speak against sin. I know this is part of our responsibility because the bible is full of examples of this. I can think of Moses and the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament or Paul's letters in the New Testament as examples of teaching people how to live in right relatedness with God and one another.
The bottom line is we are to LOVE one another and speak softly.
trosie
Edited by - trosie on 10/25/2001 5:30:24 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Cibertus
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| Posted 10/25/2001 3:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Semina,
No, I am not giving room for a superiority complex holier than thou spiritual arrogance in any way at all. What I am saying in my initial small sentences on practical application is [bold]exactly[/bold] what Bonhoffer is saying.
To reintegrate, when a person or group of people out of conviction and reverence to God, resolve to live righteously in this or that way, oblivious to anyone else’s actions or sins. When they do this in conjunction with his/her/their existence in and a coming toward their full personhood—just as God created them—regardless of anyone else but standing next to someone else. It would be parallel to God coming and merely sitting beside you silently without any cerebral attention to your sin. You would still in a [bold]different[/bold] sense be “judged.”
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Semeia
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| Posted 10/25/2001 3:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Cibertus,
Oh NOW I see what you're saying.
In that case, HIGH FIVE! 
Thanks for clarifying,
Semeia
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writerdad
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| Posted 10/25/2001 4:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Early on I recognized a need for God and an imperfection in myself that caused me to do things that were wrong. But I did not know that I was sinning and I was a sinner and not right with God until a friend shared the good of Jesus Christ with me. While our conscience can know something is wrong, it is only when the good news is shared from another who has it that we know that we are lost and found...John 17:3 Harold
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writerdad
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| Posted 10/25/2001 4:39 PM (GMT -6) | | Trosie: thank you so much! Your words were very well put...
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Semeia
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| Posted 10/26/2001 2:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Writerdad, now that you are saved, are you "less" of a sinner? Do you have less sin in you than is in the people you are "correcting"?
(Please do not answer that you have less sin because God forgave you of your sins. If that were true, you would have nothing to work on, from the moment of conversion, and we all know it doesn't work that way.)
Trosie and Writerdad, could you tell me how you interpret this passage, in the light of everything else Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount:
“Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s eye."
Do you consider yourself to have less sin than the people around you, who you are correcting? If the answer to that is no, than how do you avoid being a hypocrite? What is Jesus attitude toward hypocrisy?
Does it matter how softly you whisper your correction, if it is hypocritical?
What is the most powerful method of teaching: teaching by telling people what to do, or teaching by example?
I know you are both parents. What do our children pay the most attention to, our words or our actions?
If you are not without sin, why isn't that where all your attention is focused?
As I see it, there is no way to avoid hypocrisy unless you have less sin than the person you are correcting. As I look into my own heart, and at my own behavior, I see that I miss the mark all the time. (The Hebrew word for sin - Chet - means "error", and the Greek word for sin - Hamartia - means "missing the mark" - it comes from archery and literally means that the arrow did not hit the target.) If I am honest, I see that minute by minute my own behavior falls far short of what Jesus asks of me. I KNOW that I fall short. So I can find no sturdy platform to stand on to correct my brother.
Certainly I can invite people to the word of Jesus Christ. But I do that by showing the effect he has on ME, not by showing them how they fall short. My work is cut out for me: my own sin is so vast, so hard to understand, so hard to change: I simply can't get far enough up that mountain to see over someone else's head, to know for sure what they are doing wrong. Sometimes going against the obvious word of scripture isn't a sin. Jesus healed on the sabbath, and clearly that was not a sin.
Writerdad, I ask you to please not simply restate your opinion. You don't need to answer these questions if you don't want to, but please don't come on and simply restate your opinion without answering them.
Thanks for your perspective,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard
Edited by - Semeia on 10/28/2001 5:10:20 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
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| Posted 10/26/2001 3:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Completely off topic.
Hey, Jewgrass. I forgot. You go to University of Texas, right? I'm an alumnus of Texas A&M University ('97). So...
HISS to you, T-sipper!
Saw Varsity's horns off! SHORT! Ay!
Barbecue Bevo!
It's all about love, though. Texas rules.
For those of you who don't know, Texas A&M and University of Texas have a longstanding rivalry. We sometimes get intense, but we know when to come together. AGGIES, BAYBEEE!!
Aggie 4 life...and then some,
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 10/26/2001 4:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi2k,
How does an Aggie go about becoming interested in Open-View Theism? 
I thought only closed-minded dogmatic rednecks found their way to College Station!
--Greg Burris, gburris.jewgrass@mail.UTEXAS.edu
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 10/26/2001 5:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Sememia: one, there is a difference bewteen being a sinner and not wanting to be and growing and changing into the image of God and actively sinning and believing that such sin is okay and good in the eyes of God.
It is not hypocritical to tell someone what they are doing is wrong, even if you yourself struggle will such a problem. It isn't being hypocritical, its being loving.
AS a parent, my children need both. They need to be both told what is wrong and shown what is wrong. As Dallas Willard correctly points out in his book "Divine Conspirary," two people can live good lives, but eventually a person needs to speak the truth, not just live the truth in order that others may know.
Do I believe I am less of a sinner than others? I would say that I am on the path towards righteousness that God has put me on, but where I am I would not venture to guess. Further, I am uncomfortable with the direction of the questioning because I believe what you are trying to do is make it somehow seem as if I am sitting in judgment of other people's sins. I am not. God has stated quite plainly in his word what he considers righteous and unrighteous. We are called to state that truth. What people do with it is their choice. I have nothing to do with that. I do not look at things in terms of who is sinning more or less, but rather what can help those I know and love to be closer to God. What hinders them I will lovingly correct and, hopefully, they will correct in me.
Hypocrity is not lovingly rebuking another for their sins, but acting a life that isn't. There is a great difference, for if we cannot correct each other because we are "judging" than no one would ever change. No man (woman) is an island, but we live interconnected with one another. We need each other in both word and deed to grow. That is a great part of living the Christian life. If we do not confront others with their sins, particularly those we love, we are remiss in our responsibility to love them as fully as God would have us do. I can live as an example to my children but there also must be times when I tell them what they did was wrong because, many times, children just want their own way, regardless, even when they know what they are doing is wrong. But my children are accepting of my judgment because they know I love them and I have proved before that I have their best interests at heart. Same with my family in Christ.
As far as Matthew 7, I believe it is directed, as I said before to a type of judgment that was going on in a specfic context, the unrighteous judgments of the pharisees, who were judging based on appearance. As I stated before, we all make judgments everyday. We could not live without judging in some fashion or another. It is an inherent part of being human. It is not whether or not we judge, but how we judge is important. John 17:3 Harold
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 10/26/2001 5:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Writerdad says: quote:
there is a difference bewteen being a sinner and not wanting to be and growing and changing into the image of God and actively sinning and believing that such sin is okay and good in the eyes of God.
Where do I say that I believe "that such sin is okay and good in the eyes of God"?
Semeia
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Mephi2K
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 10/26/2001 6:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph's Analogy to Show His Understanding of Bonhoeffer's quote.
It's like unto two people that walk into a situation where tons of debauchery, hedonism, and vice is going on. Person A walks in with a scowl, obviously looking down at the people around him. He looks quite uncomfortable, but not in any type of compassionate way. He looks at the PEOPLE around him like they were flotsam in a river of sewage. Every chance he gets, he makes not only his feelings, but the abject wrongness of the entire situation, be known to everyone that passes. He makes sure to tell them just how wrong they they are, how they dispease the heavens, and by what authority he speaks. "Don't you people realize what you are doing to yourselves," he asks. The people who pass by his way look at Person A in a certain amount of digust. Some walk by exclaiming, "Who died and made YOU God over us?" Some were plain amazed at how ignorant he was of his own behavior. His meanness, aloofness, and condescending attitude seemed to contradict his oh-so-pious message. "Hell, WE'RE more accepting than this dude," they say with a smirk.
Person B walks into the same situation...not with a scowl of disgust, or a look of veiled condescension. She walks in with a look of discomfort and determination. Almost like she has a purpose. She begins conversations with others. Just shooting the breeze. She doesn't lose her cool or give any vibes of false piety...someone trying to impress others. She just does what she knows to do. Now something happens. She seems to have an interesting effect on the people around her. Kind of a draw/push effect. Some of the people around her are SO ticked at her...but for no real justifiable reason. She's not offending anyone or denouncing anyone. She's just being herself. "I don't know. It's just HER. She bothers me." Others around her aren't ticked, but they find themselves unexplainably uncomfortable around her. For some reason, they just don't want to do the same things they NORMALLY do when they are around her. Others still find themselves oddly attracted to her. The absolute contrast between what they know and who she is. It's like finding a pretty flower in the midst of a huge briar patch. "What makes her tick? Why does she act this way? Why is she so different from ME?" Some even ask her about WHY she is the way she is. They want some of what she has. And on and on it goes.
Person A represents Bonhoeffer's person of judgement. Someone who "knows" the law backwards and forwards, but DOESN'T do it. As B says, Person A feels that he is "responsible for the execution of the law." Someone has to tell these sinners what's up...and it's him. But implicitly, what he's saying is that the law can't speak for itself. It must be proclaimed to have effect. The people that he is trying to reach NOTICE the hypocrisy that Person A shows...and they are turned off by it.
From Bonhoeffer:
quote:
The man who judges envisages the law as a criterion which he applies to others, and he envisages himself as being responsible for the execution of the law. He forgets that there is only one lawgiver and judge ‘who is able to save and to destroy’ (Jas.4.12). If a man employs his knowledge of the law in accusing or condemning his brother, then in truth he accuses and condemns the law itself, for he mistrusts it and doubts that it possesses the power of the living word of God to establish itself and take effect by itself. In making himself the lawgiver and judge he invalidates the law of God.
Person B represents Bonhoeffer's person of action. Someone who SHOWS that she knows the law by doing it. She realizes that teaching by example is what works. She believes that in the inherent power of the law being lived out. So much so that she believes that just by BEING who she is, something will happen. And it works. The people are not attracted to/repulsed by HER as much as they are by what (or whom) she represents.
From Bonhoeffer:
quote:
The ‘doer of the law’, unlike the judge, submits to the law; the law never becomes a criterion for him such as he might apply to his brother; the law never confronts him otherwise than in summoning him personally to action. Even when he has to deal with a brother who is at fault, the ‘doer of the law’ has only one possible means of giving effect to the law, and that is by performing it himself. It is precisely in this way that the law is held in honor and is rendered effective, and is acknowledged to be the living word of God which takes effect by its own power and which has no need of human assistance. This does not mean, then, that the doer of the law is content with his own doing and that with a sidelong glance he calls upon God to be the judge of his sinful brother whom he himself is, unfortunately, not permitted to judge. There is really no such sidelong glance here, but there is only conduct which is appropriate to the law of God, namely the doing of the law, and it is only in this exclusive concentration upon one’s own doing of the law, without any other thought in mind, that the law is given its due and is allowed to exercise its power also upon one’s brother.
Make sense? Is this right?
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 10/26/2001 6:14 AM (GMT -6) | | I never said you did...it was a point I was trying to make...
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