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Semeia
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 10/26/2001 6:25 AM (GMT -6)

Mephi,

All I can say is WOW!

You have the same gift as the good Doctor Boyd for taking something that is incredibly complex and explaining it in a way that anyone can understand.

Thank you. I just breathed a sigh of relief.

Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 10/26/2001 10:19 AM (GMT -6)

I agree with Semeia, nice illustrative summary Meph. Thanks.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817

Posted 10/26/2001 1:20 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

Just to add something else into the mix here on the subject of accountability vs. judgement.

Typically we visualize judgement as a courtroom or the great white throne judgement where the books are open and God sits on the throne and all the people of the earth come filing past and God lists their sins on this huge projector screen for all to read.

But there is this idea that judgement (another meaning of the term, not Mephi’s use of it) is instantaneous and self-inflicted. I’ve recently been toying with the idea that God’s form of judgement may not require even a word to be uttered. It requires only pure existence. So in a situation between God and man/woman—sinful person stands before God and by sheer force of the dichotomy would pronounce judgement on the guilty party. And if we look at judgement in this way it is more understandable why God told Moses, “nobody can see me and live” Ex. 33. Or even the strange account of Uzzah, who was killed when he touched the ark of the covenant, while they were moving it. (2 Sam 6:6) I’ve run across the following excerpt from Schwobel, in God: Action and Revelation, which expresses this idea pretty well.

Through the content of God’s self-disclosure its recipients are confronted with the commission of created personal being to exercise their created freedom in obedience to the will of God and they receive the promise of created personhood that the actualization of this commission rests on no other condition than the acknowledgement of God’s grace as the ground of the possibility of created freedom. In the confrontation with the demand of personhood and the encounter with the promise for personhood the self-failure of fallen humanity is unveiled as with the promise for personhood the self-failure of fallen humanity is unveiled as sin and the possibility of self-fulfillment is promised as gospel. In the confrontation with the demand of personhood and the encounter with the promise for personhood the self-failure of fallen humanity is unveiled as sin and the possibility of self-fulfillment is promised as gospel. The fact that the recipients of revelation are addressed in God’s self-disclosure in commission and promise includes not only that humans are destined to be persons, but also that they can be held accountable for their destiny and are able to actualize this call to personhood in self-failure and self-fulfillment.

Practically applied, living as God designed a person to live (righteously), pronounces its own judgement on those the person lives amongst. I come from a tradition which emphasizes this type of “witness.” Not a word needs to be spoken.

Cibertus

Ciber-buddy,

I agree that this sort of witness is powerful and effective, but I'd be careful about the potential confusion of morality with holiness. God's presense in those dangerous incidences is not dangerous because Moses and others were not righteous in the morality sense of that word. Rather, the holiness of God is what made the situation dangerous to them. POW, help me out here, this is a point that E. Orthodox folks do well on. We need a sort of "transfiguration" that goes far beyond our moral failings. Holiness may be equivocal to godliness, but then neither of these words should be used as though equivocal with "righteous" in the moral sense of being "right" which depends upon conformity to the law. There's a whole other dimension to the "happy exchange" that happens through Christ that addresses the incompatibility between God and humanity. If Christ is the first fruits, then we are to expect a "transfiguration" like that found in the gospels and also like that of Christ in his resurrected form. There are other fundamental compatibility issues than simply moral integrity. Any person can be moral (with or without Christ), but not all will allow themselves to be transformed from one degree of glory to the next.

Just thinking out loud....

"to be neurotic is human, to be psychotic is sinful...."
Paul Tillich

Edited by - modesofthought on 10/26/2001 6:22:05 PM

Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817

Posted 10/26/2001 1:45 PM (GMT -6)

Hey, Meph, I concur with the accolades. Nicely done. In fact, you inspired me to reinstate my old quote again....

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK

trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 10/26/2001 6:56 PM (GMT -6)

Memphi, I ditto what the other's have said of your post. Like the old aphorism "Actions speak louder than words."

quote:
Semeia: Trosie and Writerdad, could you tell me how you interpret this passage, in the light of everything else Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount...

Do you consider yourself to have less sin than the people around you, who you are correcting? If the answer to that is no, than how do you avoid being a hypocrite? What is Jesus attitude toward hypocrisy?

Does it matter how softly you whisper your correction, if it is hypocritical?

What is the most powerful method of teaching: teaching by telling people what to do, or teaching by example?

I know you are both parents. What do our children pay the most attention to, our words or our actions?

If you are not without sin, why isn't that where all your attention is focused?

Semeia, I'm sorry if you got the idea that I feel self-righteous enough to pass judgment on someone else. I did NOT mean to say that I am the judge of anyone else's life AT ALL. I thank God that I DON'T have to sit on the judgment seat at the end of a person's life because there are way too many variables to be considered!

I agree with you, Memphi, and the rest that the behavior we portray is far more effective than the words we say. As a parent, I consider my responsibility to be dual in task. I need to give my children verbal instruction, but I also must back up my words by TRYING to live as close to a godly life as possible. I will never be able to live a sinless life yet I am leading by example if I get back up and move ahead whenever I fall. I believe my children need both forms of instruction (the verbal and the nonverbal) I believe God's children need both too.

The way I see it, God deals with and holds every individual accountable independently. The bible verse that comes to mind that reinforces this is the one which talks about the different talents and how the more that we are given the more that will be expected...

Hope this clarifies where I stand a bit -- I don't want to live a hypocritical life.
trosie

Mephi2K
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Total Posts : 713

Posted 10/27/2001 2:53 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks for the kudos, all!

Semeia
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 10/27/2001 5:04 AM (GMT -6)

Trosie, you had this to say about your Dad's situation (and I thought it was beautifully said):

quote:
It's a sad thing that people are living their life feeling uncertain and in a sense an amount of shame because of this issue. I believe some people live their lives, after divorce and remarriage, feeling a sense of inadequacy. The church is a huge contributor to promoting divorced people to feeling second rate so to speak. In some churches a divorced person can perhaps teach a Sunday School class but NEVER pastor a church. Too bad Christians get so caught up in judging when the only real judge is Christ.

And later you said this:

quote:
We are NOT to judge the sinner but we are mandated to speak against sin

What I have been trying to express throughout this whole thread is this:

Many, and perhaps most, of our sins are not separable from ourselves. Once your Dad was divorced it was not possible for him to be "undivorced". Same with my parents: once divorced, always divorced. It's not something you can be rid of. Same with remarriage. Take the commandment: Honor your mother and father. In real life, how much do we live up to that? In the case of my relationship with my parents, and my children's relationship with me, we'd be much more consistent if the commandment was Torture your mother and father! It's not something I ever lived up to when my parents were alive, and I don't see a lot of evidence for it in my own children. Life is messy. I've never met anyone who even came close to measuring up to the ten commandments as Jesus speaks of them.

So my question all along has been this: if we cannot rid ourselves of the sin, how do we "speak against sin" without "judging the sinner"? How do we speak against the sin of divorce without judging the divorced person? How do we speak against the sin of homosexuality without judging the homosexual? How do we speak out against the sin of adultery in remarriage without judging the remarried person? How are any of these people ever separated from the sin so that you can speak of the sin without judging THEM?

Isn't it exactly because Christians around him felt "mandated to speak against sin" that your father felt shame over his divorce? I know that's why my father did. You said it perfectly: "It's a sad thing that people are living their life feeling uncertain and in a sense an amount of shame because of this issue. I believe some people live their lives, after divorce and remarriage, feeling a sense of inadequacy. The church is a huge contributor to promoting divorced people to feeling second rate so to speak."

Jesus suggests a way, and Bonhoeffer explains it: the only way to speak against sin without judgment is to live the law ourselves. There is no other way.

That does not mean that we don't intervene when someone is self-destructing or harming others, but we only do so in a situation of accountability like Mephi described earlier. And it's certainly O.K. to give people feedback when they are having a negative affect on you. But when you "judge" their behavior by calling it "sin" (instead of just giving feedback about its negative affect on you) then you are adding your sin on top of theirs.

I agree with you Trosie, that the church has done a lot of damage to divorced people--I'm just trying to hone in on what I think the source of that damage is.

I apologize for hurting your feelings.

Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

Edited by - Semeia on 10/27/2001 10:06:51 AM

trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 10/27/2001 5:16 AM (GMT -6)

Thank you, Semeia, for apologizing about my feelings. I really don't feel hurt. I do appreciate your concern for this.

Truthfully, I find that I can become totally confused on this issue. Whenever there is a gray area, between black and white, I find I often get concerned that I not become too opinionated. What you said makes perfect sense! I really don't want to be a person who judges others yet I feel I do so even when I don't want to. Actually, I think we ALL do to some extent because we evaluate situations through our own filters and make judgments based on our sorting systems?

I would like to clarify what I believe, please feel free to tell me where you differ. From what I see in the bible(taking into account that we all have selective perception), I find that the believer is continually being instructed on how to live BUT the nonbeliever is only given a warning to repent and believe. The believer is being educated in the ways of God while the nonbeliever is proposed the question of which way they want to go. From seeing this throughout scripture I find that there are guidelines (commandments) for the BELIEVERS. The commandment that needs to be considered the most, however, is the commandment to LOVE. Love is patient, kind ... so this is the bases for how we are to live in relationship with others.

Again I say "Love the sinner but not the sin"
I am interested in hearing your response!
trosie

Semeia
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Total Posts : 522

Posted 10/27/2001 11:33 AM (GMT -6)

Trosie, you raise a distinction between believer and non-believer. Here is my take on what the difference in approach looks like:

Message to the Non-Believer:

Core problem: The non-believer thinks that their own knowledge of good and evil can save them: if they can do mostly good they will be OK. Their presupposition is that they are Not-OK.

Core solution: They must come to understand that the very belief that their own knowledge of good and evil can save them is the problem. This is most powerfully done by showing that the slightest sin means we are already dead – if we even lust in our heart we are like the adulterer and there is no way out. This is best done by living the law in a way that invites inquiry, with the humility that we are all alike in the inescapability of our sin. Just that concept alone when comprehended shows that we all have no hope of being saved by our own knowledge of good and evil and must therefore seek a different solution.

Jesus of course is that solution. We have only to believe that we cannot save ourselves and that Jesus loves us even in our sin: we are already OK. Once we understand this – that we can take the position of being OK because of Jesus – then we can become transformed into what we are capable of being: then we can start doing the law. Jesus died for our sins to show us that we can die “to” our sins, and find new life “in” him. In Jesus we can operate from a position of being OK, even though we are fallen, even though we have enduring sin, even though we can never fully overcome.

Before being saved we think we get life from our knowledge of good and evil. Our identity is based on this. For this idea to be challenged feels to us like our very life is being threatened. This is just a feeling – it is not true. We are being asked by Jesus to take the pain of allowing this false life to “die” so that we may have true life. The life that comes from Jesus.

Believing that our knowledge of good and evil can save us, we do not know that we are slaves to sin. John 8: 31-36 – Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered him, “We are descendants of Abraham and have never been slaves to anyone. What do you mean by saying, ‘You will be made free’? Jesus answered them, “Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.”

Core difficulty: If we preach that one sin is different from another – if we preach that homosexuality is a big problem and don’t in the same breath mention that if anyone lusts in his heart and all the other list of sins to show that we all fall short always – then we are actually presupposing that one can be saved by their knowledge of good and evil. If we tell homosexuals they are sinners needing to be saved because of their homosexuality, the underlying message is: be good and you will be OK. This is what the Pharisees did. In any society the individuals most capable of actually obeying some of the laws are the most susceptible to the lie that we can actually be saved by doing good – they are then the most far apart from God.

Side note: If one takes the psychological position of I’m OK – You’re not OK then one is in serious trouble. This is the position of the sociopath. The core message of the Log and Speck is to prevent this position; this position in its fullness can lead us to actually murdering our brother.

Message to the Believer:

Core problem: Giving feedback without “judgment”. There is a concept in organizational psychology called "Intent>Behavior>Impact" which shows how we can give feedback on the impact of someone's behavior on us without "judging" his or her intent.

Intent>Behavior>Impact: Each of us has an Intent – from that Intent we design our behavior. Unfortunately 95% of our behavior is designed unconsciously. Let me say that again: cognitive science has clearly shown that 95% of our behavior is unconscious: we are not even aware of what we are doing exactly, what tones we are using, what our facial expressions look like, etc… Our behavior leads to an impact on other people. We are unaware of the impact our behavior has on other people. Our intent is to give a caring response – unfortunately (because of our behavior) the response can have the exact opposite impact. Usually we are unaware of the impact. If the other person makes us aware we typically become frustrated and believe that the fault lies in the other person. Since we believe it should have been clear what our intent was – we “shoot the messenger”.

By the way, this arrow, Intent>Behavior>Impact, points at both parties who are interacting. For example, someone impacts us by his or her behavior, and as soon as we go to respond, we also have an intent that leads to a behavior that leads to an impact. The main issue is to respond to the impact that was felt, and not to make “judgments” about the other person’s intent. To call a particular behavior a “sin” is to respond to the perceived intent. To call attention to the impact, always under the assumption that the intent was well meaning, allows the other person to retreat from sin, and gives them permission to try a different behavior to achieve their intent. To name the behavior as “sin” immediately sends the other person into deep shame, which they must reject to survive, and in rejecting the judgment they are also closed off from trying a new behavior. So the person who, in trying to do good, labels another person’s behavior as “sin”, is actually complicit in causing the other person to do more sin, which is in itself sinful.

Core solution: Love. Only love can overcome this dilemma. Kierkegaard, in a chapter of Works of Love called "Love Hides the Multiplicity of Sins" makes a distinction between sin that requires a "hiding action" and sin that requires a "stopping action".

Hiding Action

Kierkegaard says that love hides the multiplicity of sins. Love does this by silence, by finding mitigating language, and by forgiveness. This is leadership at its finest: calling out the good in each of us in a way that makes it become true.

Remarriage after a “non-compliant” divorce is an example of this. The person should be treated as though it was their first marriage – pure and without sin. This leads to purity and being without sin – it leads to the health of their current marriage. The potter in action.

Lust in the heart is another example of this.

Stopping Action

Sometimes a stopping action is required – even to the point of declining fellowship. A clear example of this is alcoholism. Or any situation where people lose themselves so totally that they require strong outside assistance to find their way back. One measure that a stopping action is really required is that when it works and the person is restored they are truly thankful that the stopping action was taken.

The key here is that their sin is rapidly becoming death all around them: that their sin is right now causing evil to occur. This demands a strong, direct, loving confrontation. The confrontation however, is not about labeling the person’s intent as “sin”. The confrontation is about giving feedback about the impact of the person’s behavior. Clearly one must be very careful here when taking a stopping action. Alcoholics Anonymous has built very good guidelines for what is effective. One clear issue is that in order to confront or intervene effectively you must be a person who has experienced direct negative consequences from the behavior, or are advocating for a child or otherwise helpless victim who has experienced direct negative consequences.

Paul says, “All things are lawful for me but I will not be dominated by anything.” Being dominated by something other than love is the key problem. When someone is dominated by something that takes “control” of him or her then a stopping action is required.

So… are homosexuals dominated by homosexuality? Are heterosexuals dominated by their sexual orientation? Or is the real issue whether a person is dominated by promiscuity or sex-addiction or self-abasement through prostitution, etc.?

The one time Jesus explicitly names the kind of folk who are headed for eternal damnation, he lists only those who did not provide food for the hungry, drink for the thirsty, did not welcome strangers or provide clothing to the naked, did not visit prisoners. Not one of these was an action taken but rather an action not taken. Quite simply this is about a lack of loving action taken towards your fellow man. Anyone “dominated” by some particular sin (e.g. drunkard) won’t be taking a lot of loving action toward others – quite the contrary. And this is because they are not taking any loving action toward themselves.

When Paul produced his list in I Corinthians 6: 9 it was not a list of sins. It was a list of what can come to dominate us and take away our freedom – our ability to go forward transparent and growing in love. When dominated by these things we are heading straight for death – we are in death - here and now.

Referencing a list of sins in a group invokes either judgment or shame. If I don’t see myself in the list then I immediately go to the place where I judge – where I separate myself (I am good) from “them” (they are bad) – good thing I am not like that. If I do see myself in the list then I feel shame and I feel separated from those around me whom I feel judged by. In either case the essence of my fallenness (knowledge of good and evil – judgment/condemnation) is invoked and I separate from God.

Jesus provided a list of sins in his Sermon on the Mount. It was not, however, your typical list of sins. Jesus took the typical list and refused to use it in a way that separates us from God by invoking our judgment to condemn or shame. Jesus did invoke our judgment. Jesus called our judgment to judge that our judgment is no longer valid as a means of guiding us to our own salvation. We can no longer judge others, we can no longer judge ourselves, and this means we can no longer judge God. Our only response is to rely completely on God’s grace and on God’s goodness and not ours.

So, how does this sound? Does this additionally clarify the difference between judgment and action?

Thanks,
Semeia and her helper Iconoclast

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

Edited by - Semeia on 10/27/2001 5:33:59 PM

writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 10/27/2001 7:19 PM (GMT -6)

I Corinthians 6:9: Do you not know that the wicked with not inherit the kingdom of God: Neither the sexually immoral not idolators nor adulters nor male prostitues nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanders nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." As with the "I never knew you," verses, Sememia, it seems you have put the emphasis on what you want to believe the verses are saying to make your point.
Jesus was simply stating who was going to enter the kingdom of heaven and how a person is recognized by what they are actively doing. Paul is doing the opposite: he is stating what a person shouldn't be doing if he is God's. It was as complete a list of sins as one could have. There is nothing else to call it. It has nothing to with things that "drag us down and take away our freedom." It has everything to do with identifying sin for what it is. Otherwise, Paul would not have stated do not be deceived. He was talking to people who thought they could do these things and still get into heaven. NOT!
Not a list of sins...that was a pretty good joke...really...John 17:3 Harold

Edited by - writerdad on 10/28/2001 12:20:05 AM

Semeia
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Total Posts : 522

Posted 10/28/2001 1:21 AM (GMT -6)

Writerdad, you said:

Jesus was simply stating who was going to enter the kingdom of heaven and how a person is recognized by what they are actively doing. Paul is doing the opposite: he is stating what a person shouldn't be doing if he is God's. It was as complete a list of sins as one could have...He was talking to people who thought they could do these things and still get into heaven. NOT!

Three questions for you. Please answer all three, if you can.

1) "Adulterers" are on Paul's list. Jesus says if you remarry after divorce you are committing adultery. Therefore remarried people are "adulterers". Are remarried people going to hell?

2) "Adulterers" are on Paul's list. Jesus says if you even have lust in your heart you are committing adultery. Are 98% of all men (and quite a few women, for that matter) going to hell?

3) If Paul's list is not a list of things that can come to dominate us, but is simply a list of sins that will keep us out of heaven, how can you not answer the above two questions yes?

Thanks,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818

Posted 10/28/2001 11:23 AM (GMT -6)

Questions Questions Questions

I deeply appreciate Semeia's unique perspective -- at least its rather unique in the context of ordinary evangelical thought. You are causing me to rethink Bonhoeffer's Ethics again. Thanks. You're thinking is probing and well thought out. I appreciate the challenge. I want to understand it better. Hence I have a few questions.

1) Even if you say that the list is about behaviors that dominate people, are you not still stuck with Paul giving a pronounced judgement on certain behaviors (viz. bondage behaviors) as sin? And do you then agree that a person who is in bondage to stealing, or gossiping, or adultery, or homosexuality, etc... will not enter the kingdom of heaven? And if so, how can someone help a person in this bondage without pointing out that, whether they know it or not (and some do not), their lifestyle (bondage behavior) is destroying them and will ultimate eternally destroy them?

2) It seems to me that there must be a distinction you're making between (say) a remarried person who is in adultery, yet going to heaven, and an adulterer who is in bondage to their behavior and, according to I Cor. 6, not going to heaven. Can you flesh this out? What, for example, would a non-bondage praciticing homosexual person look and act like, as opposed to the bondage homosexual person of I Cor. 6:9.

3) Practical question: At WHC covenant partners covenant to live a biblical lifestyle, by God's grace. Let's say there is a person in this group who is living with and having relations with their girlfriend, to whom he is not married. It is pointed out to this person by those who know him, and know of the situation, but the person blows it off. They thus call on the leadership of the church (include ME) to intervene. The relationship isn't damaging anybody, at least not in any observable way (though arguably, all sin damages us). But it is sinful behavior (fornication, frequently spoken against in Scripture).

My question is, how would a pastor who endorsed your position confront this? Or WOULD a pastor who endorsed your position confront this?

Now a question for Writerdad. You said Paul's list " was as complete a list of sins as one could have." I'm wondering, how so? Paul didn’t mention lust in the heart. Or racism. Or not feeding the hungry. Or unbelief. Or pride. Or selfishness. Or not turning the other cheek. Actually, the list is a rather standard vice list, found in many writers of the time. If we were going to have an "exhaustive" list, it seems it would take volumes. And, after reading it, we'd all stand condemned. This fact is what gives prima facia plausibility to Semeia's interpretation, in my view. But then again, as I've just pointed out, I have questions about that interpretation as well.

Great thought provoking discussion.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 10/28/2001 7:04 PM (GMT -6)

Sememia: from my take, Paul's list is of those who actively think that they can do these things and get into heaven. A person, for instance, who remarries, for instance, may commit the sin of adultery, but, if they are truly sorry for having done so, they certainly are not actively committing such sins. I have dealt with this before. It is the difference bewteen being a sinner, in it is something we wrestle with, don't want to do but sometimes commit in weakness or give into but know is wrong and indulging, or believing that the sin we are committing is okay because, we are, after all, saved and God is going to forgive us anyway. For instance, there have been times when I have lied, but I never believed it was okay to lie, or when I lust it all right to lust. It is a sin and I go before God and ask forgivness. Paul is addressing those who believe that such things are permissable because they are saved and God will forgive them. AS Christians we are called to a life of holiness, which Paul points out. You believe you can do these things and get into heaven. Don't be deceived, it ain't gonna happen.
Doc: Bad way to put it. I was overemphasizing to make a point...not a complete list at all, as you pointed out...

Edited by - writerdad on 10/29/2001 12:07:05 AM

Semeia
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Total Posts : 522

Posted 10/28/2001 8:11 PM (GMT -6)

Doc, Thank you; these are great questions. I am organizing my thoughts, but it may take me a little longer because of the Great Pagan Candy Ritual Festivities coming up. I have a witch, a lady bug, and a ghoulish monster to prepare, and then there is the insulin crashing sugar psychosis to endure... but after all that fun I promise to come back full speed.

Thanks for the dialogue,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 10/28/2001 11:46 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Semeia: but after all that fun I promise to come back full speed.

Ah, gee! Do we have to wait so long? The questions Doc raised have me on my seat in anticipation to how you will respond, Semeia! I hope we don't have to wait until Thursday?! What do ya say?

I find this dialogue to be so interesting!
trosie

might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 10/29/2001 2:58 AM (GMT -6)

Semeia:

quote:

I have a witch, a lady bug, and a ghoulish monster to prepare, and then there is the insulin crashing sugar psychosis to endure

Semeia comes out of the closet.... I'll bet she even has a plastic, cling to glass, picture of a pumpkin on her window.

don

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

Semeia
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 10/29/2001 4:17 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Trosie: Semeia! I hope we don't have to wait until Thursday?! What do ya say?

I thought for sure that bought me until Friday or Saturday!

Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 10/29/2001 4:31 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Semeia: I thought for sure that bought me until Friday or Saturday!

Friday or Saturday, eh? Ah, gee whiz! Alright, we will all have to wait until Friday or Saturday BUT know that I personally am eagar in seeing your response to the Doc's questions! It's like the next chapter in a book, the next act in a play, the next scene in a movie... How will Semeia respond to the "Doc"?

Ah, the suspense!

trosie

Semeia
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 10/29/2001 4:49 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Don: Semeia comes out of the closet.... I'll bet she even has a plastic, cling to glass, picture of a pumpkin on her window.

No, but I do have a two-and-a-half foot tall light up Frankenstein. We're at the check-out line at Toys-R-Us, and my daughter has dragged this thing across the store in the hopes that I will relent. At the last moment when I am handing my credit card over, she says to me, "Mom, I know it's really cheesy, but it'll be GREAT!" Hearing my ten-year-old ADMIT that it was cheesy was such a shock and a delight to my system that I caved. Ergo, big light up plastic Frankenstein in the window.

I did get her to agree that if we somehow didn't get around to carving pumpkins for the third year in a row, she wouldn't have it written up in the local paper or by any other means advertise my rottenness as a mother. So far the agreement holds...

Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 10/29/2001 5:59 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

We're at the check-out line at Toys-R-Us, and my daughter has dragged this thing across the store in the hopes that I will relent.

A perfect example of teaching kid's that God WILL change His mind. Just push the right buttons. Gotta love me.

peace and love, don

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

writerdad
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 10/29/2001 6:12 AM (GMT -6)

We are all prepared at my house
we have a ninja, a dalmation and a skeleton all waiting to go...and we just carved our pumpkin last night...

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 10/29/2001 5:50 PM (GMT -6)

All You Pagans! Celebrating a demonic pagan holiday. I JUDGE YOU!

Okay, I admit, I've got my seven ghoulish pumpkins out and, worst of all, my Howard Stern look-alike costume ready (talk about ghoulish!). I've always thought that Christmas was a least as pagan as Holloween.

Blessings
Waiting with baited breath for the Semeia report.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

Edited by - GregBoyd on 10/29/2001 10:50:57 PM

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 10/30/2001 10:11 AM (GMT -6)

Semeia, I think you're going to like this weeks sermon. I've been going through a series entitled "Church Mythology" -- refuting various "myths" (mistaken assumptions) people often have about the Church. It just so happens that this week is Myth #7: "The Church is a Holy Club."

Semeia, your postings on this thread, especially forcing the issue of adultery and remarriage, has been helpful. You'll see it surface this week.

Do I need to give you public credit for this, as we do in published works? Or is it okay if everyone just goes ahead and regards me as supremely spiritual insightful?

Tell you what, if they brand me a heretic (one more reason!) and tar and feather me -- I'll give you some credit. (Misery loves company you know).

Blessings
Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 10/30/2001 11:12 AM (GMT -6)

Doc, your consideration of my view is all the credit I need.

Besides, I have enough people mad at me in my life!

Thanks,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 10/30/2001 12:17 PM (GMT -6)

Semeia: I have enough people mad at me in my life!

Doc: I know you're joking. But on a bit more serious note:

I've become convinced that the where we place the bar in terms of where "enough" is shall determine the point at which we stop standing for things that are truly significant.

Think about it.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

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