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What if the fall of man consisted entirely of us stealing the ability to judge our brother as guilty; that our brother should be condemned?

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Then I could understand better Mr. B’s view. I feel that the fall consisted of man disobeying God, which is by definition, sin. The stealing the ability to judge part seems like wishful thinking, since the account of the fall does not mention this, plus God teaches that judgment against evil and sin is a good thing. Your point is very illustrative to me and helpful is that is what he believes. As to

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In some ways it seems almost like Bonhoeffer is using the same definition of these words as Jesus when Jesus said, ”I came not to judge [condemn] the world but to save the world [action].”

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Great observation. You really seem to have a good grasp of this stuff. I very much agree. Of course throughout the bible we have God presenting Himself as the judge of the world, including Jesus.

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Romans 2:16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

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But I think that Jesus’ more immediate goal was His work of redemption, His second coming will much more judgment and condemnation. Yet, Jesus was judgmental and teaches us to judge.

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John 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
Matthew 7:3 "And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
5 "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
6 "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is [rightly] judged by no one.
Romans 12:9 [Let] love [be] without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

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In the NKJV, I searched for heart and it appears 107 times. I would suggest that the majority of times, it is a part of a moral teaching that often concerns moral judgment. Also, the word judg* pulled up 164 hits. Apparently morality and inner man judgment are popular Biblical topics. As to

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If you replaced Bonhoeffer’s term “judgement” with “a morally wrong judgement / condemnation” and you replaced Bonhoeffer’s term “action” with “righteous judgement / saving our brother” in all the Bonhoeffer stuff posted would you disagree with him?

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I would find it much harder to disagree with him, but I am real tight on ethics. But I guess I wouldn’t have much to disagree with. And I found myself almost resisting some of my criticisms because I can identify with parts of what he was getting at. He was obviously a very passionate man, and perhaps significantly, I found myself seeing part of his personal struggle with facing the moral dilemma with wanting Hitler and the Holocaust eradicated, and yet perhaps wants to rid himself of his own personal judgmental animosity that he doesn’t want to sour his soul by what he feels must be fleshly sinful hatred. He must have terribly despised Hitler and the Nazis who in recent history promoted unprecedented widespread sinful fleshly hatred. So as I read his comments about how judging and condemning is wrong, I consider what was plaguing his life and the world then, and I think I can understand a bit better why he might be forced into a corner on this issue.

But I find his statement quote, “The irreconcilable opposite of action is judgment.”, to be pretty bold and brash, sort of out from left field. Perhaps he needed the whole judgment thing to be negated from the scene. And if he was to actually personally act to somehow rid the earth of such terrible evils, and he had been exposed to way too much sinful hatred and unGodly condemnation to last many lifetimes, his soul probably needed to focus on other things than judgment and condemnation. The shear enormity of the moral judgment that was going on back then must have been stultifying.

If I was to say one good word about what he wrote, it would be “integrity”. It’s a really good thing to lead others by example and practice what you preach.

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Is the following an accurate mapping of the terms you are using?
1. A morally wrong judgement = condemnation = judging our brother.
2. Righteous judgement = saving our brother = true action.

I also wonder if the following would then be true:

1. A morally wrong judgement = condemnation = separates us from our brother.
2. Righteous judgement = saving our brother = brings us closer to our brother.

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I’m impressed. Great questions.

I have to straighten out what is being judged. Placing myself as the judge in these equations, there’s my act of judgment, and there’s that which I am judging. To me, the words, A morally wrong judgment can mean either of those two scenarios and I don’t know which one until it’s contextually filled in. I am trying my best and I just don’t have enough info to choose which way you meant it. So, I’ll do double duty and process them both ways. Your thoughtfulness deserves no less.

Rephrasing the first part.

Is the following an accurate mapping of the terms you are using?
1. Righteous judgement against a moral wrong = is condemning = judging our brother.
2. Righteous judgement = saving our brother = true action.

Right, I agree. Now the other way.

1. Making a morally wrong judgement = a condemnable offense = a moral wrong
2. Righteous judgement = saving our brother = true action.

I agree.

Rephrasing the second part.

1. Making a morally wrong judgement = a condemnable offense = separates us from our brother.
2. Making a righteous judgement = saving our brother = brings us closer to our brother.

(and for a slightly different perspective)

2. Righteous judgement against me = is redemptive for me = brings us closer in brotherhood and Godliness.

I agree, at least, that is the aim. The only variable that remains is how the brother responds. I always hope for the best and try to encourage mutual understanding and discourage error and false ideas. But if the brother created the offense in the first place, and he is not willing to stand corrected, then judgment for being wrong is the Godly corrective redemptive thing to do. But always from a spirit of love and desire for right and Godly relations, and always judging one’s self prior to judging others. Folks have no business judging other people if they have not learned and applied the same teaching for themselves. And judging someone as wrong can be done is very polite and subtle ways. But sometimes, harsh bold emphatic personal opposition is the best response to bold harsh destructive behavior and false teachings.

I hope this helps. Looking forward to your response.

In Christ,
1way


Edited by - 1way on 01/10/2002 02:55:01 AM

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Iconoclast:

Wow – great insight. I had never thought about how the times he lived in must have shaped his views. No wonder he was so focused on the issues surrounding judgement. (1) He saw first hand how condemnation and accusation led to great evil. And I can see, now that you mention it, how this would cause him to feel (2) strong judgment (condemnation / accusation) against Hitler and how he must have had to really struggle against that; struggling against the pattern of the oppressed becoming the oppressor. So, is this what Bonhoeffer was getting at: that the really insidious nature of evil is that when we experience (3) evil hatred / judgement / condemnation) against us our fleshly reaction is to return the same and when we continue to do this – we become like those who attack us? (4) Just thinking out loud here.

(5) I think it is also interesting that Bonhoeffer decided to act to kill Hitler. I wonder if in many ways his whole struggle and writing was aimed at this. He knew it was wrong to condemn / judge / hate Hitler – to take vengeance on him. At the same time he knew it was his responsibility to take the action of stopping Hitler from killing others – even at the risk of his own life.

(6) Do you think that what Bonhoeffer was getting at is that to condemn Hitler – to feel righteous indignation, to feel anger, hatred, revulsion, aggression and so on is morally wrong judgment but to simply come to the conclusion (after reviewing all the evidence and praying for God’s guidance) that acting to stop him (in this case by killing him) is righteous judgement?

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1way:
But I find his statement quote, “The irreconcilable opposite of action is judgment.”, to be pretty bold and brash, sort of out from left field.

Iconoclast:
I agree. When you first come across this statement it seems like a non-sequitor. But what if from a dispensational perspective this statement is true until Jesus comes back. Just a wild thought here. (7a) What if Jesus came not to condemn the world (now) but to save it and then later when he comes back – then he will judge the world. (7b) If this is true would it mean that we should follow him in this? (7c) That we also like Jesus should not condemn (now) but always act to save (i.e. help our brother)?

(8) Is Jesus teaching about how we should judge (judge with righteous judgement) consistent with this interpretation – judgement as always an action? (9) Actually it seems like Jesus keeps focusing us on judging ourselves – the Log and the Speck – we are a bunch of hypocrites and so on. Although I certainly don’t hear him saying that we should judge ourselves in the condemn ourselves sort of way. Hey – maybe this judgement as condemnation versus judgement as action makes the most sense when we apply it to ourselves. (10) Does condemning ourselves help us to become more like Jesus or does taking an action to change make us more like Jesus? Hmmm…seems like it depends on the action: confessing, repenting, apologizing, making reparations, putting a mental post-it note on that fleshly sinful thought that reads: “now quit that!” seem like helpful actions that lead us to become more like Christ. Where as beating myself up repeatedly, depressing, angering at myself, guilting myself do not seem to lead me towards becoming more like Christ.

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It seems like there are two things going on simultaneously that introduce a lot of confusion:

1. We are using the single word judgement to mean two different things: “action” vs. “condemnation”.
2. There are two different subjects of this “judging”: “myself as the judge” and “that which I am judging”.

(11) No wonder Bonhoeffer is so hard to read!

(12a) Maybe the question is: can you make a morally right judgement and at the very same time make a morally wrong judgement? (12b) In other words can you morally judge rightly that Hitler is morally wrong to kill and yet morally judge wrongly at the same time by condemning him rather than taking action to stop him? (13) Maybe a way of thinking about this is that there are really two “levels” of judgement. A judgement that is really just a conclusion based on a set of facts and a judgement that is itself either an action or a non-action – a “response”. The action being something that is helpful and the non-action being a spurious condemnation. So, maybe something like:

1. Judgement that is a conclusion: he or she is an alcoholic.
2. Judgement that is a response:
a. Action Response: group confrontation with serious consequences.
b. Condemnation Response: public reviling, rebuking, condemnation – “he is a drunkard and should be cast out”.

(14) Perhaps this was the big issue Jesus had with the Pharisees. They would publicly rebuke all who broke the law but never lifted a finger to actually help anyone obey the law.

What do you think?

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One thing you mentioned does jump out at me and that is the suggestion that (1) righteous judgement is to judge according to God's standard of right and wrong.

• If by this you mean that (2a) righteous judgement means getting back in unity with God so that our judgement is in unity with God's judgement - (2b) it is his judgement we judge with, if all of your language presupposes this, then I think we are in total agreement.



• If you mean that (3) in our fallen disunity state with God that we simply need to understand the law as given in the Bible and through rigorous study and discernment, apply those laws and judgments to the best of our ability then I think we are in total dis-agreement.

My sense is that you lean more toward the former than the latter when I read your recent posts. In which case I think we are just using different language for similar concepts.

On the other hand - when I look at your earlier posts on this thread where (4) you seem to come across as harshly condemning those who sin and calling for the death penalty (I am probably overstating this) then it seems like you lean toward the latter.

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Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

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Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Proverbs 21:3 To do righteousness and justice [Is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Proverbs 28:5 Evil men do not understand justice, But those who seek the LORD understand all.

Psalms 97:1 The LORD reigns; Let the earth rejoice; Let the multitude of isles be glad!
2 Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
3 A fire goes before Him, And burns up His enemies round about.
4 His lightnings light the world; The earth sees and trembles.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;
15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;
16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

Revelation 2:15 "Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
16 `Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

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Revelation 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Luke 20:17 Then He looked at them and said, "What then is this that is written: `The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone'?
18 "Whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."
19 And the chief priests and the scribes that very hour sought to lay hands on Him, but they feared the people----for they knew He had spoken this parable against them.

Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: `The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD'S doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes'?
43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
44 "And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."

Psalm 2:6-9 (NKJV)
6 “Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give YouThe nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

Psalm 110:1-6 (NKJV)
1 The Lord said to my Lord,“Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2 The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
3 Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth.
4 The Lord has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”
5 The Lord is at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations, He shall fill the places with dead bodies, He shall execute the heads of many countries.

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Jesus is the just a nice peaceable mild mannered meek person, He is just and righteous and wrathful and will slaughter the nations and judge with greatly against all ungodliness, because that is His character, it is the right response to vial wickedness. Jesus is for justice and righteousness and supports the death penalty.

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Matthew 15:3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
4 "For God commanded, saying, `Honor your father and your mother'; and, `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'
5 "But you say, `Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God" ----
6 `then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"

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God is good, just and righteous. I hope this helps.

In Christ,
1Way