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|  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 12/13/2002 9:39 PM (GMT -6) |   | Racism and Evolutionary Thought Consider the following excerpt from a letter written by Charles Darwin in 1881:“The more civilized so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish hollow in the struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very distant date, what an endless number of the lower races will have been eliminated by the higher civilized races throughout the world.” Lest this be considered merely an aberration, note that Darwin repeated this sentiment in his book The Descent of Man, he speculated, “At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man [Caucasians] will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world.” In addition, he subtitled his magnum opus, The Origin of Species, the Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life.
And Darwin was not alone in his racist ideology. Thomas Huxley, who coined the term agnostic and was the man most responsible for advancing Darwinian doctrine, argued that:“No rational man, cognizant of the facts, believes that the average Negro is the equal, still less the superior, of the white man…It is simply incredible {to think} that…he will be able to compete successfully with his bigger-brained and smaller-jawed rival, in a contest which is to be carried on by thoughts and not by bites.” Huxley was not only militantly racist but also lectured frequently against the resurrection of Christ, in whom “[we] are all one” (Galatians 3:28). In sharp distinction to the writings of such noted evolutionists as Hrdlicka, Haeckel, and Hooton, biblical Christianity makes it crystal clear that in Christ “there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female” (Galatians 3:28).
In Christianity we sing, “Red and yellow, black and white, all are precious in His sight, Jesus loves the little children of the world.” In the evolutionary hierarchy blacks are placed at the bottom, yellows and reds somewhere in the middle, and whites on top. As H. F. Osborn, director of the American Museum of National History and one of the most prominent American anthropologists of the first half of the twentieth century, put it:“The Negroid stock is even more ancient than the Caucasian and the Mongolian, as may be proved by an examination not only of the brain, of the hair, of the bodily characters, such as teeth, the genitalia, the sense organs, but of the instincts, the intelligence. The standard of intelligence of the average Negro is similar to that of the eleven-year-old youth of the species Homo sapiens.” Think of the historical consequences that are the direct and logical results of the naturalist worldview. For instance, Adolf Hitler appealed to the people of his country to have a backbone to advance the logical outworking of their worldview. Now mind you, not all naturalists are racists or killers of the less fortunate… however, this is a logical outworking of philosophical (metaphysical) naturalism:“The stronger must dominate and not mate with the weaker, which would signify the sacrifice of its own higher nature. Only the born weakling can look upon this principle as cruel, and if he does so it is merely because he is of a feebler nature and narrower mind; for if such a law [natural selection] did not direct the process of evolution then the higher development of organic life would not be conceivable at all…. If Nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile.” (Mein Kampf) Hitler referred to this dispensation of nature as “quite logical.” In fact, it was so logical to the Nazis that they built concentration camps to carry out their convictions about the human race as being “nothing but the product of heredity and environment” or as the Nazis liked to say, “of blood and soil.”
It is significant to note that some of the Crusaders and others who used force to further their creeds in the name of God were acting in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ. The teachings of Osborn and others like him, however, are completely consistent with the teachings of Darwin. Indeed, social Darwinism has provided the scientific substructure for some of the most significant atrocities in human history. For evolution to succeed, it is as crucial that the unfit die as the fittest survive. Marvin Lubenow graphically portrays the ghastly consequences of such beliefs in his book Bones of Contention:“If the unfit survived indefinitely, they would continue to ‘infect’ the fit with their less fit genes. The result is that the more fit genes would be diluted and compromised by the less fit genes, and evolution could not take place. The concept of evolution demands death. Death is thus as natural to evolution as it is foreign to biblical creation. The Bible teaches that death is a ‘foreigner,’ a condition superimposed upon humans and nature after creation.” Adolph Hitler’s philosophy that Jews were subhuman and that Aryans were supermen (mirroring the beliefs Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood) led to the extermination of about six million Jews. In the words of Sir Arthur Keith, a militant anti-Christian physical anthropologist: “The German Fuhrer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consistently sought to make the practices of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.”
Karl Marx, the father of communism, saw in Darwinism the scientific and sociological support for an economic experiment that eclipsed even the carnage of Hitler’s Germany. His hatred of Christ and Christianity led to the mass murder of multiplied millions worldwide. Karl Marx so revered Darwin that his desire was to dedicate a portion of Das Kapital to him.
It should be noted as well that Darwinian evolution (man evolving from lower creatures) is sexist as well. Under the subheading “Difference in the Mental Powers of the Two Sexes,” Darwin attempted to persuade followers that… “The chief distinction in the intellectual powers of the two sexes is shown by mans attaining to a higher eminence, in whatever he takes up, than can women – whether requiring deep thought, reason, or imagination, or merely the use of the senses and hands…We may also infer…[that] the average of mental power in man must be above that of women.” In sharp contrast to the evolutionary dogma, Scripture makes it clear that all humanity is created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27; Acts 17:29); that there is essential equality between the sexes (Galatians 3:28); and that slavery is as repugnant to God as murder and adultery (1 Timothy 1:10).
A compilation from a few books pieced together in SeanGisms’ special way.
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  GregBoyd Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 1818 | Posted 12/15/2002 3:24 PM (GMT -6) |   | THAT is a VERY interesting historical post Sean G. Thanks. I was unware that Darwin, Huxley and Osborn had said such things. I had always thought the racist application of Darwinianism was primarily a Spencerian "Social Gospel" thing. This is very enlightening.
Yet, at the same time, you have to concede that most evolutionist today are neither Darwinian nor Spencerian. I know of no one (but could be wrong) who holds to different homo sapien origins of different races. The evidence is overwhelmingly against it. So, as interesting as the historical association of racism and evolutionary thought is, I don't know if it any longer can serve as argument against evolutionary thought today. If the view is to be rejected, I think it has to be on strictly scientific grounds.
By the way, your signiture is extremely clever!
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 12/15/2002 7:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | I partially agree with you Dr. Boyd, however, the Neo-Darwinists (which are shrinking, but still make up a large proportion of the academic field) and the Punctuationists are all behind the “African Eve” (Mitochondrial Eve) theory putting early man coming from the heart of Africa. And still today the drawings of the supposed missing links as dark in color as well as brutish, are all, to me at least, still a sign of the underlying current that the native-Africans are somehow less evolved than even the “Mongols.” Science text books may not overtly state as such now, but the idea that the black-African woman is the mother of the human race is – again, to me – very demeaning… in that it pre-supposes that the Caucasian race is further advanced in evolutionary terms. I believe I can pull up some other info, but I just got back from my older son’s play. Six more shows and I’m done! I’ll post tomorrow.
Thank you, by the way Dr. Boyd for the complement… This high school dropout, three-time felon (the foolish things) has shown himself worthy in the sight of the lord (to confound the wise).
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Chucks3371 Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 28 | Posted 12/16/2002 6:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | Sean:
Perhaps you would be willing ot post some racist quotes from American Christian theologians? I guarantee you won't have any trouble finding material.
And I am sure they did not pick up their racism from reading Darwin and Huxley.
In the early sixties my family made a trip from Boston to Florida. On a Sunday morning in a small town in North Carolina, my father asked the gas station attendant if there was a Catholic church in town. He replied, "No, but there is a colored church around the corner, if you'd like ..."
Regards, Chuck S.
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 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 12/16/2002 7:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | Chucks3371,
I hope you read the entire post, as I explicitly stated in numerous place that, and I quote:~ Now mind you, not all naturalists are racists or killers of the less fortunate… however, this is a logical outworking of philosophical (metaphysical) naturalism;
~ It is significant to note that some of the Crusaders and others who used force to further their creeds in the name of God were acting in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ. I also understand that almost all working scientists do not even use, reference, or think about evolutionary theory (working scientists! Not professors).
On your personal experiance used as an example of comparison: Christian Identity is the religious wing/theology of the KKK and other racist splinter groups. One of their teachings is that the only true Christians are those who are from the tribe of Judah and Israel (the pure white race, British Israelism), the other 10 tribes are cursed and are to be destroyed by God… if not by them. When I was part of a prison ministry I would ask these gentleman what they thought about the Bible, and, for the most part they had a high view of it. This being established, I asked them about Paul, and if they believed he was a Jewish man or a white man. They would always respond that Paul was from the tribe of Judah, and thus white and pure. I would then point out that Paul is from the tribe of Benjamin. Another route is to establish who Jesus is and show his “role” in the God-head. Then I would take them into the book of Numbers and show them where God cursed Miriam, Moses’ sister, for speaking out against his interracial marriage. Miriam was only cured after she repented. So, Jesus, the supposed super whitey was all for interracial marriages.
My point Chucks3371 being, is that the Bible and Christianity’s founder, Jesus, do not promote, condone, nor teach the inferiority of one race over the other. However, this teaching is intrinsic in the base philosophy of naturalism. That is, one group of people is more evolutionarily advanced than another. This thinking is intrinsic to its thesis. So I’m sure you can pull all kinds of wacky quotes from befuddled “Christians,” however, these persons can be easily shown to be living and teaching in direct opposition to what the Bible and its founder has taught.
I hope this helped. And may I recommend some resources that will enable you to further understand the issue? I will do so under the impression that you are willing and open-minded to further you understanding of where almost all Christians stand on this issue. The book I am thinking of is entitled One Blood: The Biblical Answer to Racism (Amazon.com has this book). You may not agree with the small nuances of the book, but the main premise is where all Christians can agree. Three videos that are outstanding are The Origins of the Races, History of Man, and The Real Roots Video. Together they are about an hour and a half long and can be found at: http://www.creationresearch.net/secure/prodrace.htm
Enjoy 
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1
Edited by - SeanG on 12/16/2002 1:14:08 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 12/16/2002 7:54 AM (GMT -6) |   | Dr. Boyd,
What I was thinking of yesterday was more along the line of eugenics and its history within Planned Parenthood. If you haven’t read the book Grand Illusions: The Legacy of Planned Parenthood, I highly recommend you do so (especially chapter 5). This, by far, is one of the best exposés of the current thought and philosophy of this organization. However, for brevity sake, I will post a site or two that will catalog the main thesis I am thinking of. Article: http://www.blacksforlife.net/abortion_industry_and_planned.htm Home: http://www.blacksforlife.net/
Article: http://grundmann4congress.com/Stop_Government_Funded_Racism.htm
Article: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/1333/absanger.htm
Eugenics is alive and well, not only in our educational institutions and town clinics, but also at the United Nations (global eugenics). Eugenics is scientism married to racial preferences. That’s the bottom line as one example of how Darwinism (evolutional outworkings) and slaughter are still being propagated today. I agree with you however that if you ask, most will not admit or know that they are blatantly racist. But Darwinism demands it, and eugenics practices it.
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1
Edited by - SeanG on 12/16/2002 12:54:38 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Chucks3371 Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 28 | Posted 12/17/2002 1:55 AM (GMT -6) |   | Sean:
With all due respect your facile identifications of liberal=bad and conservative=good is not necessarily a perfect guide. And your assumption that Christians have always opposed racism is not true -- it is probably more true to claim the opposite. So why have Christians suddenly found the antidote to racism in the Bible?
quote: It is fascinating that until the late 1800s most Christian theologians used the Bible to sanction slavery and that, in America, many Southern clergy took up arms against the "infidel" Northern clergy because they believed the Yankee Christians were rejecting the clear truth of the Bible! In this case the sourthern Christians were the Biblical conservatives and their northern counterparts were the liberals.
from The God Who Risksby John Sanders (p 284)
And, I may add, these southern theologians were not Identity extremists, but quite mainstream -- some are still quoted with approval, particularly in conservative Presbyterian churches.
So, Sean, are you a liberal or a conservative? Or a child of the times?
Regards, Chuck S.
PS. That conservative Presbyterian church teaches that Arminians are barely Christians and Catholics are not even Christian. For this Church to suddenly deny its racist past and put the blame for racism on evolutionists is ludicrous.
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 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 12/17/2002 8:08 AM (GMT -6) |   | Before I begin, Chucks3371, I would like to recommend a book on the history of the modern liberal view, it is entitled The Betrayal of Liberalism: How the Disciples of Freedom & Equality Helped Foster the Illiberal Politics of Coercion & Control (Ivan R. Dee Pub; Chicago: IL [1999], edited by Hilton Kramer and Roger Kimball).
I find people simplifying of the Civil War very intriguing. The reason being that less than one-quarter of the landowners in the Antebellum South were slave owners. And I know of no one that would go to that kind of war over just slavery when less than a quarter of its people practiced it. There were, as well, in the Antebellum South, 3,000 [+] African-Americans who owned slaves, many, treating the slaves worse than their white counter parts.
You mention that some used the Bible to back slavery. People also use the Bible to prove that aliens exist? Are they right? Or are they merely misapplying the Bible, using bad hermeneutics. Practicing isogesis rather than exegesis. The Bible has always, let me repeat, always been against any persons enslavement. Keep in mind though, that the Bible is a history of the "fallen" cultures and times in which it was written, so it does record cultural practices... such as slavery. That being said, I wish to digress a bit and use some info from a paper I did for my son’s fifth grade class (passed out to all the parents as a supplement to counter the terribly one-sided [Howard Zinn type] take on the history between the explorers/settlers and the Native-American), and I will borrow a few quotes from it as well as adding some.
Author and talk show host Larry Elder (an African-American, for the curious) rightly notes: “We need historical perspective. Yes, slavery is America’s horror and shame. But slavery, unfortunately, appears throughout the whole of human history. Europeans enslaved Europeans. Asians enslaved Asians. Those we refer to as Native-Americans enslaved other Native-Americans. Black Africans enslaved other black Africans. Slave traders brought more African slaves to the Middle-East and to South America than to Colonial America. Yet this country fought a civil war that resulted in the eradication of slavery, no other nation can say that.” Larry Elder, Ten Things You Can’t Say In America, (St. Martins Press; New York: NY [2000], p. 9.) This fight to end slavery and the fight for civil rights in the 60’s were in large part due to the Christian faith. Ministers and believers mainly manned the Underground Railroad, as well as the marches of the sixties. To quote Dinesh D’Souza (an Indian-American [from India]):“Slaves developed a communal life too, much of it built around the two central institutions of the black church and black family. For a people oppressed, a deep religious faith helped to create autonomous spiritual space that even the master had to respect, and it offered hope that the travails of the slaves would someday end….” D’Souza continues, “The slaves embraced the white man’s Christianity…. Identif[ying] with Christ as the suffering victim who would rise again” Dinesh D’ Souza, The End of Racism, (The Free Press; New York: N.Y. [1995], p. 96.) Far from being the repressive religion, Christianity became one of the major catalysts that helped create the autonomous African-American that yearned for the promise of liberation that always follows salvation. I heard a challenge on the radio by Michael Medved once that was telling. Someone called in to say that Christianity had caused the enslavement of blacks and that they fought tooth and nail against it being removed. Michael Medved then went through some historical matters and ended with challenging the caller as to whether there were any “free-thinkers” in the Underground Railroad. After the person named one, Michael pointed him to the fact that this person was in fact a Christian. The abolitionist movement in America and Britain was headed by and had its ranks filled with Christians. And if this religion had somehow been removed prior to this fight, we very well may still have slavery, like the African continent and the Middle-East do today. I want to dispel any misconceptions about the conservative and liberal movements of today, so we can see where the marrying of conservativism and religion propelled the civil rights movement.
Thomas Sowell, another African-American author (sociologist, economist, and historian), shows the misconception of modern day understandings as well:Roots has a white man leading a slave raid in West Africa, where the hero Kunta Kinte was captured, looking bewildered at the chains put on him as he was led away in bondage. The village elders were likewise bewildered as to what these white men were doing, carrying their people away. In reality, West Africa was a center of slave trading before the first white man arrived there -- and slavery continues in parts of it to this very moment. Africans sold vast numbers of other Africans to Europeans. But they hardly let Europeans go running around in their territory, catching people willy-nilly. Because of the false picture of history presented by Roots and by other sources, last year we had the farce of the president of Nigeria making demands on the United States because of the enslavement of people whom his own countrymen had enslaved, and on behalf of a country where slavery still persists, more than a century after emancipation has occurred throughout the Western world. Roots also feeds the gross misconception that slavery was about white people enslaving black people. The tragedy of slavery was of a far greater magnitude than that. People of every race and color were both slaves and enslavers, for thousands of years, all around the world. Europeans enslaved other Europeans for centuries before the first African was brought across the Atlantic. Asians enslaved other Asians, as well as whatever Europeans they could get hold of. Slavery existed in the Western Hemisphere before Columbus ever got here.” ( http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell013002.asp ) Today even, all the marches of the sixties with Martin Luther King, Jr. and the like were Christians, and they were marching against the southern democrats,“But it was the southern democrats who formed the line to defend Jim Crow. Georgia governor Lester Maddox famously brandished ax handles to prevent blacks from patronizing his restaurant. He was a democrat. Alabama governor George Wallace stood in front of the Alabama schoolhouse in 1963 and thundered, ‘Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.’ He was a democrat. Birmingham Public Safety commissioner Eugene ‘Bull’ Conner sicced dogs and turned fire hoses on black civil rights demonstrations [that were manned primarily by Christians]. He was a democrat. In 1954, Arkansas governor Orville Faubus tried to prevent the desegregation of a Little Rock public high school. He was Democrat. President Eisenhower, a Republican, sent in federal troops to prevent violence and enforce a court order desegregating the school. As a percentage of their respective parties, more republicans voted for the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 than did Democrats! A Republican president, Richard Nixon, not John F. Kennedy or Lyndon B. Johnson, instituted the first affirmative action program with goals and timetables…. And it was during the Kennedy administration that FBI head J. Edgar Hoover sought and received permission to wiretap Martin Luther King. The person granting him permission? Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy.” (Larry Elder, Ten Things You Can’t Say In America, (St. Martins Press; New York: NY [2000], pp. 14-16)
“President Kennedy avoided engagement with the civil rights movement for as long as possible…. Tellingly, it had been Vice President Richard Nixon who fought for the 1957 Civil Rights Act in the Senate, not Kennedy.” (Kenneth J. Heinman, God Is a Conservative: Religion, Politics, and Morality in Contemporary America, New York Univ; New York: NY [1998], pp. 34-35) A very sober and insightful quote, from a Brit, found in the opening pages of a book by historian Paul Johnson entitled, A History of the American People:“…can a nation rise above the injustices of its origins and, by its moral purpose and performance, atone for them? All nations are born in war, conquest, and crime, usually concealed by the obscurity of a distant past. The United States, from its earliest colonial times, won its title-deeds in the full blaze of recorded history, and the stains on them are there for all to see and censure: the dispossession of a indigenous people, and the securing of self-sufficiency through the sweat and pain of an enslaved race. In the judgmental scales of history, such grievous wrongs must be balanced by the erection of a society dedicated to justice and fairness.” (Harper-Collins; New York: NY [1997], p. 3.) Back now to the topic at hand, the patron saint of conservatism is Edmund Burke. The patron saint of modern liberalism (not “classical-liberalism,” this is what the founders were known as, and I consider myself one) is Jean-Jacques Rousseau. The two ideologies seep from these two men. These two philosophies that undergird modern politics have two different views of human nature. One of my favorite, little known, authors is Dale A. Berryhill, he made this distinction clear, as the following shows:“One night, after I had spoken to a church group about the liberal contradiction, a young woman approached me with fire in her eyes. ‘Are you saying,’ she demanded, ‘that you cannot be a liberal and be a Christian?’ ‘On the contrary,’ I replied, ‘I don’t think you can be a Christian and not be a liberal, if by liberal you mean being compassionate for the underprivileged, treating everyone equally because they are equal in the eyes of God, and being a good steward of Gods earth. But if you mean by liberal that there are no absolutes, or that we may take away people’s rights in order to ensure progress, then I’m afraid you’re caught in the liberal contradiction.’
The Judeo-Christian world view has plenty of room for compassion, tolerance, and individual rights, but it has no place for either relativism or progressivism. Judeo-Christian theology offers a distinct alternative to the progressive vision. According to Genesis, man was created in the image of God – so he will always strive to do better – but he also has a fallen, sinful nature. History tells us that this sinful nature is not improving as man grows in knowledge and technical capability [or monetarily]…. the greatest flaw in contemporary liberalism is its failure to take this aspect of human experience into account. The progressive vision requires a belief in the inherent goodness of man…. This flawed vision leaves the liberal perplexed over the continuing ‘rebirth’ of racism, corruption, and other human ills. The progressive sees racism and other evils as stages to move beyond; they are ‘national problems’ to be solved, not human problems to be guarded against and punished. In fact, these evils are often made possible by the odd progressive belief that man will stop being bad if he is no longer restricted from being bad.” (The Assualt: Liberalism’s Attack on Religion, Freedom, and Democracy, Huntington House; Lafayette: LA [1995], pp. 30-31) Rabbi Dennis Prager and Rabbi Daniel Lapin both have written and spoken on the true nature of the liberal vs. conservative views in regards to human nature (see for instance America’s Real War, Multnomah pub; Sisters: OR [1999]).
And I wish to be very clear about who the abolitionists were, they were classical-liberals, which are now known as conservatives (Russell Kirk, The Conservative Mind: From Burke to Eliot, Regnery Pub; Washington: DC [1995 ed]).
As far as your PS goes, I would say that within any denomination there are true and untrue Christians. However, if, for instance, a Catholic adheres to Vatican II and views Mary as their co-redemptress and co-mediatrix, as the Church demands… then that person would thus be looking to other than Christ for their salvation. And the Old Testament and New Testament is crystal clear on matters such as these. The debate between Armenianism and Calvinism is within the “pale of orthodoxy,” and as the “Bible Answer Man” says, can be discussed within this “pale” and not divide us, the saying says, “In the essentials, Unity; in the non-essentials, diversity; but in all things, charity.” For instance, I am a pre-triber, I see most here are preterists. We both do not see clearly now as we will then, its as if we look into a clouded mirror.
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1
Edited by - SeanG on 12/17/2002 6:45:03 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  GregBoyd Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 1818 | Posted 12/19/2002 11:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | You've got to admit SeanG is well read on this topic! Dang dude, thanks for the research.
But, for my part, I didn't see Chuck3371 as denying that Christians have often fought for civil rights etc. Ithink he was merely making sure that you weren't doing a "guilt by association" sort of thing -- which you quickly clarified. In other words, you may have over-answered Chuck. Still, I'm glad you did because it was informative.
Maybe we should just ask Senator Lott what the correct perspective is.
oh oh, here we go...
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 12/19/2002 2:27 PM (GMT -6) |   | Thank you again for the complement Dr. Boyd. I have about 600 essays in my Microsoft word on various subjects (apologetics, politics, cults, occult, etc., etc.) that were written for friends with challenges to the Christian faith and from debates I have had over the years on the internet. For example, my son’s director of the play he’s in has a son who is into Neale Walsch, who authored Conversations With God. so I approached this “kid” and asked if he would be open to a paper from me on the subject. He agreed, so last week I did a five pager… and included my paper on reincarnation, since “God” supposedly responded to Walsch in this way when he asked about reincarnation, (God speaking) “It is difficult to believe there is still a question about this.... There have been so many reports from thoroughly reliable sources of past life experiences” (Book 1, p. 204). Over the years these papers just add up, so I can cut n’ paste from them onto sites like these, easy as Stevie. Plus my home library doesn’t hurt in the reference department 
As far as Lott goes, I personally believe him to be a dixicrat down deep. He may have that old school racial superiority in him (though, he may not), however, I believe someone else as the leader of the Republicans would serve the Bush agenda better. I have two guys in mind for the spot, and I am hoping the evangelical medical doctor gets the spot. The word over the grapevine about Bush’s plan for taxes* is interesting… and there is a senator from Denver that is a libertarian/conservative mix who would be the most helpful in this respect.
*The rumor mill is that there will be no payroll tax [federal income tax], but instead a national sales tax. What this means is that there will be no more forms to fill out, and everyone – no matter how rich or poor – will receive about 5,000 to 6,000 dollars back at the end of the year. This will more evenly spread out the tax burden among U.S. citizens (the top ten percent of Americans pay 43% of the taxes in this nation) rather than placing most of the burden on the rich, who, when you think about it, are the guys who would rather invest that money to expand their businesses thus creating more jobs in the pursuit of creating more money for themselves. Ahhh, capitalism, I love it 
Anyway, I am just rambling… Ta Ta.
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1 P.S. With the conservative and Christian guilt by association, I do have to say that, even though I may have cleared it up, I would still assert that conservative philosophy as a whole, has a healthier view of human nature. One that is more in line with the Bible, meaning, one that is more out of line with the secular world and media. This is why you will always hear “religious-right” and not “religious-left.” Or “far-right” instead of “far-left.” There are other reasons for this as well, but the battle for the soul is one of the major ones. Postmodernism vs. Classical-Liberalism founded on Natural Law. Within these confines of political philosophy, Christianity can grow and expand more so than in the liberal ideology. Again, I am not saying that there aren’t Christians who are liberal. I am saying that the liberals have a record that is far more tarnished when it comes to slavery, racism, and race baiting for instance. This, I believe, as I stated in the above post, is mainly due to their view of human nature that so clouds their political goggles. [Keep in mind there are 58 self-avowed "social-democrats" in Congress... can someone name a country that had a majority of social democrats that tried to take over the world?]
Edited by - SeanG on 12/20/2002 12:24:27 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 12/19/2002 7:16 PM (GMT -6) |   | Five more plays left... the countdown is on!!!!
Edited by - SeanG on 12/20/2002 12:19:01 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 12/20/2002 1:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | Correct me if I am wrong but...
"As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simpilest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all the members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races." -Charles Darwin
I took this quote from Robert Wright's "Nonzero: The Logic of Human Destiny"
I found out that quote was originally from "The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex," on this website: www.bconnex.net/~cspcc/crime_prevention/cruelty.htm:
Poor Darwin, he probably never dreamed that, indirectly, his ideas would be used to attack children's heroes. In fact, they should not be. He never accepted many of the conclusions which are now being attributed to him. If one's reading of Darwin is limited to "The Origin of the Species", however, misinterpretation of this sort is understandable. Nevertheless, some additional effort at the library should help clarify any misconceptions. In 1871, Darwin published "The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex", where he wrote, "As man advances in civilization and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instinct and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him." This is not mere prescription. Repeatedly, throughout the book, Darwin says that in nature and in human social life, co-operation and a benevolent linkage between fellows is essential for survival.
In 1872, Darwin published "The Expression of Emotion in Man and Animals", in which he continued this argument, saying that natural selection favours the preservation of altruistic feeling, mutual aid, group loyalty and co-operativeness...
I also found this article in the past, and I thought it might be of interest to you:
www.arn.org/docs2/news/darwinianstruggle030702.htm
Peace
"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man." -John F. Haught | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 12/20/2002 3:34 AM (GMT -6) |   | A_Theist, I am a big fan of ARN, having purchased all their videos a year ago or so (there are a few new ones that I need to catch up on). However, I am well adept at pointing out the – almost deistic – inadequacies of some of the ID scientists and the time intervals that some of them accept. Thank you for the papers, I read them in earnest.
I wanted to post a paper of mine that was published, the only one that was published, in the on-line journal “The Federalist.” This journal is read by the biggest conservative think-tank in Washington… hurray. It deals primarily with “cultural” &/or “personal relativism,” which is what we are left with in the evolution of morals and the thought process (This is a shortened version of a 2,700 word essay I did for an on-line debate):
Have We Forgotten?…
Fyodor Dostoyevsky’s maxim rings just as true today as it did in his day, “If there is no God, all things are permissible.” Without an absolute ethical norm, morality is reduced to mere preference and the world is a jungle where might makes right. Mussolini commented once:“Everything I have said and done in these last years is relativism by intuition…. If relativism signifies contempt for fixed categories and men who claim to be bearers of an objective, immortal truth… then there is nothing more relativistic than fascistic attitudes and activity…. From the fact that all ideologies are of equal value, that all ideologies are mere fictions, the modern relativist infers that everybody has the right to create for himself his own ideology and to attempt to enforce it with all the energy of which he is capable.” Hitler added that, “I freed Germany from the stupid and degrading fallacies of conscience and morality… we will train young people before whom the world will tremble. I want young people capable of violence – imperious, relentless and cruel.”
The rejection of moral absolutes creates what? Young people who will scare the bejesus out of the world. I contend that fifty[+] years after Hitler’s comments, the American public school system (grounded in liberal educational philosophies) is pumping out those children. When what Mussolini calls the “immortal truth,” and Hitler refers to as “stupid and degrading fallacies of conscience and morality,” is removed, what is left? Let’s see.
The third article in the Humanist Manifesto I & II begins:“We affirm that moral values derive their source from human experience. Ethics is autonomous and situational, needing no theological or ideological sanction. Ethics stems from human need and interest.” For the Humanist/Naturalist (non-Theist), man himself is the only standard by which his own behavior is to be assessed. Man is to be the sole arbiter in all matters of justice and law, right and wrong. In the words of the Encyclopedia Americana, “Since there is no God, man is the creator of his own values.” The British author John Hick bluntly asserts, “There is no God; therefore no absolute values and no absolute laws.” Joseph Lewis in, The Bible Unmasked, says, “There is in reality no absolute standard by which we can judge… In the final analysis our guide in moral affairs should be what gives to the individual the greatest possible happiness.” Friedrich Nietzsche agreed: “…the advantage of our times, nothing is true, everything is permitted.” Hedonism is thus the maxim of the land.
Allan Bloom in his book The Closing of the American Mind, said that, “There is one thing a professor can be certain of. Almost every student entering the university believes, or says he believes, that truth is relative.” How did the college student get this way? Let us allow the Father of modern educational philosophy answer that, John Dewey:“There is no God and no soul. Hence, there are no needs for props of traditional religion. With dogma and creed excluded, then immutable [i.e. unchangeable] truth is also dead and buried. There is no room for fixed, natural law or permanent moral absolutes.” From Cristina Odone (from Melrose Place) saying in the June 1997 Daily Telegraph that, “What’s right is what you feel,” to Ernest Hemingway’s creed: “What is moral is what you feel good after, and what is immoral is what you feel bad after.” The philosophy of humanistic naturalism is creating a people who will try to enforce their “will and way” (happiness) above others.
This is why the “Hitler’s” and “Stalin’s” will always be mandatory when the moral imperatives of God are thrown to the wayside; there is a power vacuum. Malcolm Muggeridge made a great point about this power vacuum:“If God is dead, somebody is going to have to take his place. It will be megalomania or erotomania, the drive for power or the drive for pleasure, the clenched fist or the phallus, Hitler or Hugh Heffner.” (Not making any reference to the Clinton administration whatsoever) In 1983, the dissident Soviet author Alexander Solzhenitsyn had been awarded the prestigious Templeton Prize for religious progress. In accepting the award, he gave a clear assessment of the tragedy that had been so devastating to his homeland: “I have spent well-nigh fifty tears working on the history of our Revolution. In the process, I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own towards the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were to be asked today the main cause of the ruinous Revolution that has swallowed up some sixty-million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: ‘Men have forgotten God; that’s why all this has happened.’” …I Pray We Have Not!
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1
Edited by - SeanG on 12/20/2002 08:46:06 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 12/20/2002 7:54 AM (GMT -6) |   | Does this essay pertain to relativism and social darwinism? If so, I don't believe we can deduce a biological teaching from a science and apply it to our lives. If this is what people have done, I am sorry to say that they are ill informed, and need to read more. Or something.
Blessings, Paul
"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man." -John F. Haught
Edited by - A_Theist on 12/21/2002 04:03:31 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 12/20/2002 2:30 PM (GMT -6) |   | Now you get it A_Theist, Darwinism is not a biological “scientific” theory as much as it is a philosophy that has direct implications on the origin and future of human morality. Good job for seeing the difference, the difference being that evolution is a religious belief, bravo!.

SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 12/20/2002 11:16 PM (GMT -6) |   | The funny thing about labeling something a religion is the pesky definition that comes up when skeptics say this or that negative thing about <b>religion</b>:
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n Function: noun Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY Date: 13th century 1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith - re·li·gion·less adjective
www.merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=religion
The reason I pointed that out is the semantical error people tend to make when calling evolution a religion--according to these definitions, religion is professing a belief in a deity. Even if you go about holding this view of evolution as a religion, doesn't that mean you can reduce anything to religious belief?
quote: the difference being that evolution is a religious belief
Are we talking Biological Evolution? If so, I can't see how one would treat it as a religion.
Blessings, Paul
"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man." -John F. Haught | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 12/21/2002 7:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | Well… you know A_Theist, I love ARN, as I pointed out before. You should check this article out in full, in short, I am adding some of the article to my post here http://www.arn.org/docs/ohio/calverttostandardscommittee020402.htm
Mind you that this has strayed from racism in evolution to another debate… but I will deal with these topics as they come up. The purpose of this post will be to show a few things, #1) that natural selection is a tautology… thus nullifying it as a scientific model or theory; #2) that “survival of the fittest” is a tautology that even uses a tautology within its own tautology (that being, natural selection); #3) The Darwinism is a religion – I may post a second time to further clarify (so keep an eye out… just be careful putting it back in); and #4) by doing the above, I will have shown that two of the major pillars (#’s 1 & 2) of “Biological Evolution[ary]” theory are refuted, thus, making the evolutionary biological model an unproven hypothesis. Enjoy! 
If there is any question about whether a design inference is a religion, it should be noted that secular humanism and other broad concepts that generate religious implications have been held to not constitute a "religion" for establishment clause purposes. [Peloza v. Capistrano Unified School District, 37 F3rd 517, 521 (9th cir 1994): holding that secular humanism is not a religion; and Alvarado v. City of San Jose, 94 F. 3rd 1223, 1230 (9th Cir 1996) finding that "New Age" beliefs are not a religion for establishment clause purposes]. Furthermore, the courts have ruled that the establishment clause is not violated simply "because the material to be taught happens to coincide or harmonize with the tenets of some or all religions." [John H. Calvert, J.D., William S. Harris, Ph.D., Teaching Origins Science in Public Schools: Memorandum and Opinion (Intelligent Design network, inc., March 21, 2001) at http://www.IntelligentDesignNetwork.org/legalopinion.htm. Ibid. at 2588; Alvarado v. City of San Jose, at 1232 and Fleischfresser v. Directors of School District 200, 15 F3rd 680, 689 (7th Cir 1994).]
Thus, a design inference does not become a religion simply because it happens to support theistic beliefs. If implications of a teaching generated a violation of the establishment clause, then Darwinism would not be permissible since it supports the view that life does not result by design and thereby denigrates religion. This denigration was published with prominence in the July 2000 issue of Scientific American. A six page article focuses on the way that Darwinism has changed "Modern Thought" by replacing theistic religion with a Darwinian basis for our morals and ethics.First, Darwinism rejects all supernatural phenomena and causations. .....Darwin provided a scientific foundation for ethics. To borrow Darwin's phrase, there is grandeur in this view of life. New modes of thinking have been, and are being, evolved. Almost every component in modern man's belief system is somehow affected by Darwinian principles. As indicated below, the only neutral way to deal with these religious implications is to allow teachers to show relevant scientific evidence that relates to both the Naturalistic and Design Hypotheses. If the evidence supporting the Design Hypothesis is censored then Darwinism, protected by the censoring mechanism of Naturalism, is indeed a religion as Michael Ruse has so eloquently stated. Michael Ruse, “How Evolution Became a Religion,” http://www.nationalpost.com , (May 13, 2000). Dr. Ruse is a highly regarded philosopher of science who testified against the "Creation Science" stature in McLean v. Arkansas."Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion -- a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint -- and Mr. Gish [a proponent of Creation Science] is but one of many to make it -- the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today." (emphasis added) – This quote is used again below… FYI Dr. Ruse's plea can only be realized by eliminating methodological naturalism from origins science. So long as the irrebuttable naturalistic assumption is used, evolution will be promoted as a "non-religion" in a manner contrary to the holding in Epperson v. Arkansas. The only way to legitimate Darwinian evolution and teach it in a religiously neutral manner is to remove the philosophical device that protects it from criticism and testing by the competing design hypothesis. Dr. Ruse's plea can only be realized by eliminating methodological naturalism from origins science. So long as the irrebuttable naturalistic assumption is used, evolution will be promoted as a "non-religion" in a manner contrary to the holding in Epperson v. Arkansas. The only way to legitimate Darwinian evolution and teach it in a religiously neutral manner is to remove the philosophical device that protects it from criticism and testing by the competing design hypothesis.
A_Theist… keep in mind that the above and the below are all quotes and peer-reviewed papers written and ssaid by evolutionary scientists and professors who are experts in their respective fields that directly deal with these issues
Since Natural Selection is one of the main components of the “scientific model” that you keep referring to A_Theist, I will deal with it in this next section – tying together what the ARN article referred to as “irrebuttable.”
From a rabid anti-creationist:“Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion — a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint — and Mr [sic] Gish is but one of many to make it — the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today…. Evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology, an explicit substitute for Christianity.” (Michael Ruse, professor of philosophy and zoology at the University of Guelph, Canada [recently moved to Florida], “How Evolution Became a Religion: Creationists Correct?” National Post, pp. B1, B3, B7 May 13, 2000.)To summarize what I have already written, the modern position of the synthetic theory is: the struggle for existence plays no part in evolution (from a previous debate years ago on the www.). The direction of evolution is determined solely by the characteristics of those animals and plants that are successful breeders. We are unable to say anything about why a particular characteristic might favor, or prejudice, the survival of any particular animal or plant. (If you wish, I can post this paper as well.)
Natural Selection Perhaps an even more damaging criticism of the concept of natural selection is that – limited though its content may be – it is so nebulous that it can be made to fit a whole range of mutually contradictory outcomes of the evolutionary process. Natural selection is entirely compatible with the notion that all organisms in stable environments have reached a fitness peak on which they will remain forever. At the same time natural selection is entirely compatible with the idea that all organisms should regress to the safest common denominator, a single-celled organism, and thus become optimally adapted to every habitat.
In precisely the same way, because of its infinitely elastic (explained more later) definition, natural selection can be made to explain opposed and even mutually contradictory individual adaptations. For example, Darwinists claim that camouflage coloring and mimicry (as in leaf insects) is adaptive and will be selected for, yet they also claim that warning coloration (the wasp’s stripes) is adaptive and will be selected for. Yet if both propositions are true, any kind of coloration will have some adaptive value, whether it is partly camouflaged or partly warning, and will be selected for. As a theory, then, natural selection makes no unique predictions but instead is used retrospectively to explain every outcome: And a theory that explains everything in this way, explains nothing. Natural selection is not a mechanism: it is a rationalization after the fact.
Natural selection is the process by which the most successful populate the world, and the less successful breeders die out – regardless of their respective characteristics.[lsit]“The giraffe has a long neck because…?” Here we get stuck. The only help we get from synthetic evolution is that the giraffe has survived because it has survived. (This can be applied to the person who tried to explain to me how the cleaner fish “evolved” to pick the teeth of its predator, as well as the below posts.)
Is It Testable? Can It Predict? Ernst Mayr made some startling admissions about Darwin’s model of mutation and natural selection. He said, “Popper is right; this model is so good that it can explain everything, as popper has rightly complained.” This relates to the requirement in science that a theory or model must make exclusionary predictions. If the concept is so generalized that it can explain any conceivable type of evidence, then it is of no value to science. For example, if a theory can explain both dark and light coloring in moths, both the presence and absence of transitional forms in the fossil record, complex life forms either above or below in rock strata, etc., then it has no value in making predictions. Now, Dr. Mayr (who was professor of zoology at Harvard University) believes that “ultimately, all variation is, of course, due to mutation….”
Professor Gould (Harvard’s esteemed paleontologist) has this to say when asked, “What role do mutations play in speciation?” Dr, Gould responded:“A mutation doesn’t produce major new raw material. You don’t make a new species by mutating the species…. That’s a common idea people have; that evolution is due to random mutations. A mutation is NOT the cause of evolutionary change. Something else than natural selection brings about species at new levels, trends and directions.” Keep in mind that Mayr and Gould are both evolutionists.
In a discussion of how evolutionary theory can explain the fact that eels, which normally reproduce only in salt water, have certain landlocked species that reproduce in fresh water, Dr Weisskopt said,“I think it was Medawar who said that one thing about the theory of evolution [and he quoted Popper] that it is not falsifiable, that whatever happens you can explain it. I think you have an example here.” On the same subject, Dr. Fraser said,“It would seem to me that there have been endless statements made and the only thing I have clearly agreed with through the whole day [referring to the Wistar Symposium] has been the statement made by Karl Popper, namely, that the real inadequacy of evolution, esthetically and scientifically, is that you can explain anything you want by changing your variable around.” George Wald agreed,“This cannot be done in evolution, taking it in its broad sense, and this is really all I meant when I called it tautologous in the first place. It can, indeed, explain anything. You may be ingenious or not in proposing a mechanism which looks plausible to human beings… but it is still unfalsifiable theory.” Dr. Schutzenberger of the University of Paris reported on why all attempts to program a model of evolution on a computer had completely failed. He said that neo-Darwinism asserts that without anything further, selection brings about a statistically adapted drift when random changes are performed in a population. He insisted,“We believe that is not conceivable. In fact if we try to stimulate such a situation by making changes randomly at the typographic level (by letters or blocks, the size of the unit does not matter) on computer programs we find that we have no chance (i.e., less than one in ten to the thousandth power) even to see what the modified program would compute: it just jams. Thus… we believe that there is a considerable gap in the neo-Darwinian theory of evolution, and we believe this gap to be of such a nature that it cannot be bridged within the current conception of biology.” Near the end of the Symposium, Murray Eden explained:“In consequence, the theory has been modified to the point that virtually every formulation of the principles of evolution is a tautology…. It is our contention that if ‘random’ is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws – physical, physicochemical, and biological…. In summary, it is our contention that the principle task of the evolutionist is to discover and examine mechanisms which constrain the variation of phenotypes to a very small class and to relegate the notion of randomness to a minor non-crucial role.” Observable, Repeatable, and Refutable? To the surprise of many casual observers, and to the embarrassment of many journalistic influences, evolution has never been demonstrated to be a viable explanation for life origins (or cosmic origins for that matter). By definition the scientific method requires that the objects or events under study must be OBSERVABLE, REPEATABLE, and REFUTABLE. Evolution certainly cannot be observed or repeated in the field or the laboratory. With this in mind, evolutionist Karl Popper, the honored referee of the modern scientific method, pointed out:“It follows that any controversy over the question whether events which are in principle unrepeatable and unique ever do occur cannot be decided by science; it would be a metaphysical controversy.” In his introduction to a 1971 publication of Darwin’s Origin of the Species, L. Harrison Matthews, British biologist and evolutionist, wrote:“The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproved theory – is it then a science or a faith? Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation – both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable of proof.” Intense controversy has erupted within the evolutionary camp. Newsweek featured an article by Sharon Begley titled “Science Contra Darwin.” She revealed:“The great body of work derived from Charles Darwin’s revolutionary 1859 book, On the Origin of Species, is under increasing attack – and not just from creationists…. So heated is the debate that one Darwinian says there are times when he thinks about going into a field with more intellectual honesty: the used car business.” Agnostic (non-creationist) Michael Denton (in his book Evolution: A Theory In Crisis) wrote that the evolutionary paradigm was, “… an idea which is more like a principle of medieval astrology than a serious twentieth century theory….” Steven M. Stanley (evolutionist) said that,“If most evolutionary changes occur during speciation events and if speciation events are largely random, natural selection, long viewed as a process guiding evolutionary change, cannot play a significant role in determining the overall course of evolution.” (at the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science 72:640-660, [1975], p.648) Richard C. Lewontin (evolutionist), in "Adaptation." Scientific American (and the Scientific American Book, Evolution), said that,“Adaptation leads to natural selection, natural selection does not necessarily lead to greater adaptation ... Natural Selection operates essentially to enable the organisms to maintain their state of adaptation rather than improve it ... Natural selection over the long run does not seem to improve a species’ chances of survival, but simply enables it to ‘track,’ or keep up with, the constantly changing environment” (Sept. 1978) Pierre-Paul Grassé (evolutionist) added in his book Evolution of Living Organisms, the following,“Mutations, in time, occur incoherently. They are not complementary to one another, nor are they cumulative in successive generations toward a given direction. They modify what pre-exists, but they do so in disorder.” (Academic Press, New York [1977], pp. 97, 98)Arthur Koestler (evolutionist) gets his jabs in as well when he said,“In the meantime, the educated public continues to believe that Darwin has provided all the relevant answers by the magic formula of random mutation plus natural selection — quite unaware of the fact that random mutations turned out to be irrelevant and natural selection a tautology.” (Janus: A Summing Up, Random House, New York [1978], pp. 184-185) Another part of the “scientific model” that A_Theist keeps referring to is that of “Survival of the Fittest,” another tautology involving the tautology of natural selection, as we will see.One asks: “who survives?” The answer: “the fittest.” So one asks: “who is the fittest?” The answer: “those who survive.” Philosophy professor Gregory Alan Pesely notes:“One of the most frequent objections against the theory of natural selection is that it is a sophisticated tautology… What is most unsettling is that some evolutionary biologists have no qualms about proposing tautologies as explanations. One would immediately reject any lexicographer who tried to define a word by the same word, or a thinker who merely restated his proposition, or any other instance of gross redundancy; yet no one seems scandalized that men of science should be satisfied with a major principle which is no more than a tautology.” Fitness does not always mean survival. The smartest, most resourceful persons are not necessarily those who leave the most offspring. So in recent years, evolutionists reduced the definition of “fitness” to simply “those who leave the most offspring.” But even this entails a rather circular argument. As geneticist Conrad Waddington of Edinburgh University noted:“There, you do come to what is, in effect, a vacuous statement: ‘Natural selection is that some things leave more offspring than others;’ and you ask, ‘which leaves more offspring than others;’ and it is ‘those who leave more offspring;’ and there is nothing more to it than that,” By the sixth edition of his own book, Darwin himself abandoned his own theory. He wrote: “Natural selection is incompetent to account for the incipient stages of useful structures.” Nothing more to it, its that simple.
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1
Edited by - SeanG on 12/21/2002 12:04:19 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 12/21/2002 7:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | A_Theist, your definition of religion is set on a false premise, which is that religion constitutes a “God” in the equation. I will demonstrate by the definition of religion from Random House Websters Unabridged Dictionary (1999 – on CD-ROM [anything in the "[ ]" brackets are mine]):a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. [take note that it says especially, but not mandatory] when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. (emphasis added) The following is taken from a paper I did for a friend.
What is religion and can it be defined? I will attempt to do so for the purpose of “clarifying terms.” The best term I feel is applicable to religion is this: Religion may be defined as a way of thinking about ultimate questions. A persons religion answers questions such as how and why (and everything else) came into existence, whether the purpose of life has been established by a Creator or is up to us to decide, and how we can have reliable knowledge (revealed by God or revealed by Nature) about the world and about ourselves. The officially recognized answers to these questions make up a society’s established religious philosophy, its culturally dominant way of thinking about origins. But let us look at what some dictionaries say about faith and religion.
Webster’s New World Dictionary defines religion as “a specific system of belief, worship, often involving a code of ethics.” Faith is defined as “unquestioning belief [or, as we saw above, irrebuttable]… complete trust or confidence… loyalty.”
Funk and Wagnalls Standard Desk Dictionary has this to say about religion, “The beliefs, attitudes, emotions, behavior, etc., constituting man’s relationship with the powers and principles of the universe.” On the matter of faith it says, “Confidence in or dependence on a person, statement, or thing as trustworthy… Belief without need of certain proof.”
There is nothing sinister or inherently unconstitutional about the existing of a de facto established public philosophy on religious questions (such as origins and mans purpose). The philosophy is established not in the sense that it is formally enacted or that dissenters are subject to legal punishment (although in recent years this has started to happen), but in the sense that it provides a philosophical basis for lawmaking and public education, in law school this is taught as “public policy.” For example, one culture may endeavor to encourage its schoolgirls to look forward to lives as mothers and homemakers, while another may encourage them to reject traditional gender stereotypes and pursue formally masculine careers. To encourage either choice reflects a dominant public philosophy about human nature and gender roles. Similarly, any community that operates a public school system must have a policy of some kind concerning, say, sexual morality, even if the policy is merely to encourage adolescents to choose for themselves. Relativism itself is a policy choice, it rests on assumptions about reality, and “man’s relationship with the powers and principles of the universe” as Funk and Wagnalls says.
Soldiers use to march to the “Battle Hymn of the Republic” – a song that is banned from most public schools today. Some people would say we, as a Nation, have become neutral about religion. The evidence, however, points to one philosophy/religion replacing another. Lets see if we can glean what this new religious belief is that so dominates the Western hemisphere now. For instance, the public schools have become a battleground for religion. John Dunphy, a secular humanist, wrote in the Humanist magazine:“I am convinced that the battleground for humankind’s future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith; a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preacher, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subjects they teach regardless of the educational level – preschool daycare or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new – the rotting corpse of Christianity together with all its adjacent evils and misery…” John Dewey, the father of modern education, hoped to replace sectarian religion with “a religious faith that shall not be confined to sect, class, or race.” The religion envisioned by Dewey is that of secular humanism. The Supreme Court has even recognized it (other non-God beliefs, like Buddhism, are included in this) as a religion (Torcaso v. Watkins). This is why there are tax-free atheist churches with “pastors” and “counselors,” not to mention these pastors and counselors on the university campuses and in the military now, paid for by our tax dollars of course. The Humanist Manifesto was signed by many of the prominent atheistic/evolutionary educators of the day. Among its signers were John Dewey, Harry Elmer Barnes, C. F. Potter and John Herman Randall. The manifesto called for a radical change in religious perspectives. A religion adequate to the twentieth century regards the universe as self-existing, not created, and regards man as part of nature evolved in its processes. Mind-body dualism, supernaturalism, theism, and even deism are rejected. The goal of life is the realization of human personality. Social and mental hygiene are priority items. Social control is a means to the abundant life for all. That statement was updated in 1973 by a Humanist Manifesto II, which adds an additional emphases on human responsibility toward humanity as a whole, “a specific system of belief, worship [of man], often involving a code of ethics” as Webster’s Dictionary puts it.
This is one of the catalysts that brought Judge Pendergerst of the Baltimore Superior Court to say:“It is abundantly clear that the petitioner’s real objective is to drive every concept of religion out of the public school system. If God were removed from the classroom, there would remain only atheism [secular humanism: a religion]. The word is derived from the Greek atheos, meaning ‘without a God.’ Thus the beliefs of virtually all pupils would be subordinated to those of Madalyn Murray.” The point being A_Theist, that God does not need to be part of the equation for something to be relegated "religious."
Remember my friend, that ultimately evolution is:UNKNOWN CHEMICALS in the primordial past… through…
UNKNOWN PROCESSES That no longer exist… produced…
UNKNOWN LIFE FORMS That are not to be found… but could, through…
UNKNOWN REPRODUCTION METHODS Spawn new life… in an…
UNKNOWN OCEANIC SOUP COMPLEX … at an…
UNSPECIFIED TIME and PLACE If this isn’t inherently religious, requiring faith on greater levels than those of a theist, then, I don’t know what is!
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1
Edited by - SeanG on 12/21/2002 12:50:44 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Chucks3371 Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 28 | Posted 12/22/2002 4:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
But, for my part, I didn't see Chuck3371 as denying that Christians have often fought for civil rights etc. Ithink he was merely making sure that you weren't doing a "guilt by association" sort of thing -- which you quickly clarified. In other words, you may have over-answered Chuck. Still, I'm glad you did because it was informative.
Apparently, Dr. Boyd, it doesn't pay to be subtle. I was quoting John Sanders, who was making both a narrow point and a wider point, which I had incorrectly assumed were hard to miss.
The narrow point is that Christians were on both sides of the slavery issue. However, Sean G. documents one side. The "liberals" were anti-slavery, anti-racism both in the 1860s and 1960s. The literalist, fundamentalist, "conservative" Christians were pro-slavery and anti-civil rights using a literal reading of the Bible to justify their positions. Before his about-face, I had understood him to be supporting the Biblical conservatives over the Biblical liberals. What fundamentalists were on the front-lines of the Civil Rights movement? Can we assume that MLK's theology, based as it is on Tillich and Niehbur, is truer to the Christian message than fundamentalism?
And as I had pointed out from personal experience, the South had segregated churches in the 60s. Why, if it is anti-Christian? Were they simply mistaken, or was a new Biblical verse discovered? If the USA was founded as a "christian" nation, how could slavery and racism ever have been a part of its founding? There were no Darwinists during the revolutionary war. Why has rascism persevered so long in the South, allegedly the center of true Biblical Christianity?
That leads to the broader point that I believe John Sanders was making. If the fundamentalists were so wrong about racism, could they be as wrong on other issues, viz. open theism or ecumenism? I am currently reading Flame of Love by the open theist Clark Pinnock, who acknowledges his debt to the pre-Reformation churches, quotes "pantheist" mystics with approval and dedicates his book to Richard Foster. All of which puts him way beyond the pale, as far as the self-designated "Bible-answer man" is concerned. Is that also the position of the owners and participants to this list? Is Clark Pinnock a heretic?
At least the Roman church has but a single pope; among evangelicals popes are legion.
As for the original topic -- Racism and Darwinism: that will have to be revisited to cut through the misinformation, half-truths and propaganda. I admit that Christians can learn from Classical liberals; for example, the Catholic Lord Acton and atheist evolutionists such as Hayek and Popper, et al., balanced, of course, by the thought of Christians such as aforementioned Russel Kirk -- a Catholic and paleo-conservative -- who warns against the consumer society of the classical liberals. Of course, name-dropping and simplistic categories are not a substitute for understanding.
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 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 12/22/2002 9:04 AM (GMT -6) |   | Chucks3371 said,:And as I had pointed out from personal experience, the South had segregated churches in the 60s. Why, if it is anti-Christian? Were they simply mistaken, or was a new Biblical verse discovered? If the USA was founded as a "Christian" nation, how could slavery and racism ever have been a part of its founding? There were no Darwinists during the revolutionary war. Why has racism persevered so long in the South, allegedly the center of true Biblical Christianity?” For the short answer… if you wish to forego the longer response below, yes, they were simply mistaken. A good book that explains how the Bible is used [misused] by racists is the book One Aryan Nation Under God: How Religious Extremists Use the Bible to Justify Their Actions. This book will help answer how segregationists misuse the Bible to a lesser degree by showing how the Aryans misuse it to a greater degree. Yes, Bob Jones University was mistaken and misused the Bible… that is possible you know, to misuse the Bible. The Bible has to be perverted in order to make it support racism and segregation. Evolutionary theory doesn’t. The inner testimony of the Holy Spirit has to be blocked and impeded. Evolutionary theory doesn’t. I too have been to the south, and I never once bumped into a racist. And yes, the founders were Christians, and in the cultural, social context of history, slavery was dealt with. The Constitution, when it allowed for it [slavery] until a certain point, and then would make it illegal, did so because an immediate cessation of such would have financially ruined – or so the signers thought – fledgling economy… that was so important to this young nation at the time. The south just didn’t take this deadline serious. Having read Hayek (a great, great author and thinker) you know that the south was right in its choice to secede from the union. Our constitution allows for it in fact. And the battle between federalism and statism was the main driving force behind the Civil War, although slavery was close to Lincoln’s heart as well. The founders put in place a government that would – I believe inevitably – get rid of slavery. The founders knew this and stated as much (from a previous paper done for a poli-sci class): The statement that slave ownership was accepted as moral? And religions, (Christianity?), used texts to justify atrocities and were accepted as moral, are false statements. Yes, there have been people in power who have done these things, but, for instance, Fox’s Book of Martyrs shows how many true Christians died trying to defend, show the proper use – and misuse – of scripture. These are counted as moral heroes! The Founding Fathers hated slavery, but if there is no moral basis outside cultural morals (i.e. the majority decides), then slavery could be allowed as legal, and no moral outrage against slavery could be justified! It could be justified that the ownership of a less evolved (evolution) species could benefit mankind in its existence and survival. This could then said to be more humane than what Margaret Sanger wanted to do, eradicate them altogether (Miss Sanger is the founder of Planned Parenthood).
All the names above, in the first post, that are in bold type, are Christians. The people running the Underground Railroad, for instance, were almost all Christians. Almost all moral reformers throughout history have either been guided by the Judeo-Christian religion or have been influenced by it. Why? Because our (Judeo-Christian) moral code will never change, and the founder of it (that is, the moral code) lived it.
This passage appeared in Jefferson’s first draft of the Declaration of Independence: “He [the king of Britain] has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere…. Determined to keep open a market where men should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce.” Jefferson had blacks in mind when he was penning the Declaration!
Some more quotes on the matter of slavery:
George Washington: “There is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery].”
John Adams: “Every measure of prudence, therefor, ought to be assumed for the eventual total extirpation of slavery from the United States…. I have, through my whole life, held the practice of slavery in… abhorrence.”
Benjamin Franklin: “Slavery is… an atrocious debasement of human nature.”
Alexander Hamilton: “The laws of certain states… give an ownership in the service of Negroes as personal property…. But being men, by the laws of God and nature [states were voting as a majority, but the moral code of God – unchanging code – says the states were wrong! This is the difference between a democracy and a republic.], they were capable of acquiring liberty – and when the captor in war… thought fit to give them liberty, the gift was not only valid, but irrevocable.”
James Madison: “We have seen the mere distinction of color made in the most enlightened period of time, a ground of the most oppressive dominion ever exercised by man over man.” As far as evolution being new, I beg to differ. In an insightful book the genealogical records of the Norwegians, Danes, Icelanders, English Saxons, Welch, Irish, etc., are followed all the way back to either Noah or his sons. The first chapter, though, deals with the early debate of origins back in Greece. Plato wrote, “Some people, I believe, account for all things which have come into exist, all things which are coming into existence now, and all things which will do so in the future, by attributing them either to nature, art, or chance.” Epicurean materialism was taught in the Stoic school founded by Zeno in 308 B.C.. And if there is a positive writing, there must be a negative one it is commenting on, for instance:“When you see a sundial or a water-clock [Paley’s early “watchmaker”], you see that it tells time by design and not by chance. How then can you imagine that the universe as a whole is devoid of purpose and intelligence when it embraces everything, including these artifacts themselves and their artificers? Our friend Posidonius as you know has recently made a globe which in its revolution shows the movements of the sun and stars and planets, by day and night, just as they appear in the sky. Now if someone were to take this globe and show it to the people of Britain or Scythia [barbarians at this time] would a single one of those barbarians fail to see that it was the product of a conscious intelligence.” (Cicero, 106 B.C.–43 B.C.) The Greeks and Romans were almost all evolutionist, they believed the gods and themselves were the product of chance, and part of nature ultimately. Evolutionary theories have abounded through the ages. Isaac Newton ([1643-1727] and other creation scientists) rejected the evolutionary theories of his day for that of creation, as did Cicero. An interesting article found at – http://www.answersingenesis.org/hom...cs/v22n2p50.asp - explains in more depth:Cicero (106–43 BC), used this concept in his book De Natura Deorum (On the Nature of the Gods) to challenge the evolutionary ideas of the philosophers of his day.
The two main schools of philosophy then were Epicureanism and Stoicism. The Epicureans sought happiness through bodily pleasures and freedom from pain and anxiety. The two chief causes of anxiety were fear of the gods and fear of death, so Epicurus sought to nullify both of these by teaching an evolutionary atomic theory.
He denied that there was any purpose in nature, because everything was composed of particles (atoma: atoms), all falling downwards. He said that these sometimes spontaneously “swerved” to coalesce and form bodies — non-living, living, human, and divine. The gods were made of finer atoms than humankind. They did not create the world or have any control over it, so they were not concerned with human affairs, and there was therefore no need for man to fear them. At death, the soul disintegrated and became non-existent, so there was no need to fear death or the prospect of judgment after death.
Cicero used the Stoic character in his book to refute these ideas with arguments from design, aimed to show that the universe is governed by an intelligent designer. He argued that a conscious purpose was needed to express art (e.g. to make a picture or a statue) and so, because nature was more perfect than art, nature showed purpose also. He reasoned that the movement of a ship was guided by skilled intelligence, and a sundial or water clock told the time by design rather than by chance. He said that even the barbarians of Britain or Scythia could not fail to see that a model which showed the movements of the sun, stars and planets was the product of conscious intelligence.
Cicero continued his challenge to the evolutionism of Epicurus by marvelling that anyone could persuade himself that chance collisions of particles could form anything as beautiful as the world. He said that this was on a par with believing that if the letters of the alphabet were thrown on the ground often enough they would spell out the Annals of Ennius.
And he asked: if chance collisions of particles could make a world, why then cannot they build much less difficult objects, like a colonnade, a temple, a house, or a city? As you can see, design and natural theories have existed for quite some time. The implications of the two are even discussed as a sub-text in this quote from Cicero:“If any man cannot feel the power of God when he looks upon the stars, then I doubt whether he is capable of any feeling at all.” Again, there are true Christians, as I have said before, that are liberal; again, as I said before, the conservative has the healthier view of the nature of man. And with this healthier view, can set his sights on restraining it.
F. A. Hayek, if debating say, Ravi Zacharias, William Lane Craig, Norman Geisler, or even Gary Habermas, would fall to the wayside (like Antony Flew, Paul Kurtz, Kai Neilson, and the like have) in trying to tie a duty to being good, morally. As much as I enjoy reading The Road to Serfdom, The Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism, and The Constitution of Liberty, they still do not give a reason or duty to follow the higher path, other than selfishness. Books like Written on the Heart: The Case for Natural Law (Budziszewski), Human Rights & Human Dignity (Montgomery), and Natural Law and Natural Rights (Finnis) give a better foundation – duty – in “ bestowing” liberty on individuals than Hayek could ever hope to attain with naturalistic theories of justice and liberty.
In a nutshell, “No, the people’s freedom’s are based in the Necessary Being, the first cause, the First Principle. The government can use power to control its subjects, but the people, if there is no God, cannot base their self-worth on anything absolute. Only if they were in control and had use of power could they. However, God does exist, our Founders knew it, and the people have their rights already, the government is only there to secure them. Not the government granting the people their rights. The former – i.e., natural rights and freedoms – government is based on “first principles,” the latter – i.e., power-mongers and tyrants – isn’t.” The absence of personal intention in a spontaneous order – a cosmos, as Hayek defined it – means an absence of either justice or injustice. “Nature can be neither just nor unjust,” he said, “Only if we mean to blame a personal creator does it make sense to describe it as unjust that somebody has been born with a physical defect, or been stricken with a disease, or has suffered the loss of a loved one.” This quote taken from Thomas Sowell’s book, The Quest for Cosmic Justice (pp.4-5), goes a long way in showing that without a Natural Law Giver, that humans cannot view even the loss of a loved one as unjust. The only way someone can say that genocide is morally wrong, and an act that is evil, is to posit a scale in which one can universally describe something as being evil by knowing what the good should be. Christianity allows for individualism, this was well understood by modern foes of the Biblical religion, such as Nietzsche, Compte, and Russell, all of whom attacked Christianity for exactly that, its individualism (M. Stanton Evans, The Theme is Freedom: Religion, Politics and the American Tradition, pp. 146-147).
It was this individualism that the founders incorporated into the Declaration that undergirded the Constitution that allowed for the minorities (blacks, Irish, Chinese, etc.) to all achieve. No other nation can say as much. And as Europe slips into socialism (America slowly following behind), this individualism is being threatened. And slavery – Biblically speaking – is wrong whether you are conservative or liberal. But the point is that you will find this blight more so in the liberal movement. As I have shown history to show, as the south is predominately liberal – remember… those dixi-crats? Hayek makes the case that the Nazi's were really socialists, the far left of the political spectrum. He also makes the case that Europe and America are headed that way. And who is always bringing up race? If you watch TV or read newspapers or listen to talk-radio, it is the liberal-“Christians”, like the Rev. Jesse Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton, and the other liberal democrats in Congress. All the Libertarian and Conservative authors and commentators say as much. History and the present situation bear out my thesis, and if you read conservative journals versus liberal journals, you will notice a wide disparage when noting how many conservatives believe in a creator in the conservative sense and those who don't believe at all or believe in a God (the liberal view of Him/ or Her) who worked through evolution on the liberal side of the isle. It is telling that they are consumed by racial preferences and categorizing.
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1
Edited by - SeanG on 12/22/2002 2:24:46 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 12/22/2002 11:44 PM (GMT -6) |   | http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2002/12/22/224714 Clinton Was Sued for Intimidating Black Voters in Arkansas
http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2002/12/22/222850 Clintons Made Racist, Anti-Semitic Remarks
http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2002/12/20/215339 Sen. Byrd, Confederate General

SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Antoine Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 2 | Posted 1/20/2003 9:49 PM (GMT -6) |   | SeanG said, ages ago:
quote:
I partially agree with you Dr. Boyd, however, the Neo-Darwinists (which are shrinking, but still make up a large proportion of the academic field) and the Punctuationists are all behind the “African Eve” (Mitochondrial Eve) theory putting early man coming from the heart of Africa. And still today the drawings of the supposed missing links as dark in color as well as brutish, are all, to me at least, still a sign of the underlying current that the native-Africans are somehow less evolved than even the “Mongols.” Science text books may not overtly state as such now, but the idea that the black-African woman is the mother of the human race is – again, to me – very demeaning… in that it pre-supposes that the Caucasian race is further advanced in evolutionary terms.
Whether or not you accept that evolution is true:
Evolution does not pose a hierarchy of species. Modern day dogs, for example, are said to be just as 'evolved' as modern day squirrels and modern day people. Each is adapted to its own niche. Demanding that humans be as good at holding their breaths at whales is as silly as demanding that whales be as good at making and using tools as humans are. Evolutionary biologists know this.
So you might still be entitled to the belief that some group of people or other is racist, and you might be entitled to the belief that this mitochondrial eve claim or some other claim is untrue, but you are not strictly entitled to conclude from someone's belief about the factuality of mitochondrial eve whether or not they are racist.
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 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 1/21/2003 1:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | Antoine, you obviously didn’t read my entire post.
I said:“Now mind you, not all naturalists are racists or killers of the less fortunate… however, this is a logical outworking of philosophical (metaphysical) naturalism;” Whereas, it (racism that is) is not a logical outworking of Christianity.
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen."
“The problem with creation is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it has been found difficult, and left untried.” | | Back to Top | | |
 |  fyodor Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 179 | Posted 1/21/2003 5:44 PM (GMT -6) |   | Without entering in on any debates, or even taking a day to read this thread, I would like to offer up Louis Menand's "The Metaphysical Club" as a refreshingly fluid and stimulating read of 19th century Scientific, Philosophical, and Political thought which includes some discussion of the historical interweaving of many of the key figures in the Monogenism vs. Polygenism debate. The discussion includes historical references to Pierce, Agassiz, Morton, Gray, Dewey, James and a host of others. Just an excellent work of academic historical storytelling....Enjoy
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET | | Back to Top | | |
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