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Chance,if God loves people "on the condition of x," then two things seem to follow.
a) What God loves is not people, but the condition they fulfill to get them to love him. If the right behavior is associated with the person, they're in. If not, they're out. Which means what God is really interested in is behavior, not people.

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So do you believe that God would love people who exhibited absolutely no behavior whatsoever? I don't believe that God would create such people (if you can still call them people) in the first place because they would be unable to reciprocate the divine love. God would not waste His time loving something or someone who is incapable of loving, so the ability to reciprocate love must be part of the reason God chooses to love us.

I believe love falls under behavior to some extent. At least agape love does (1 Cor 13:4-7). God wants us to love and trust Him and as a result conform us to the image of His son which is who we were created to be like in the first place (Rom 8:29-30; Eph 1:3-4). I believe what God is really interested in is people who are able to reciprocate His love. He will destrroy those who do not reciprocate His love and I take that to indicate that there will be a point where His interest in them ceases. Otherwise, why would He destroy them by throwing them into the lake of fire to suffer the second death?

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b) If God loves on us to the extent that we are free from sin, but hates us to the extent that we are not free from sin, then we are lost causes. For being compatible with God requires sinlessness.

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I agree. However, I never said that God loves us to the extent that we are free from sin, but hates us to the extent that we are not free from sin. You're putting words into my mouth. God's love for us is greater than His hatred of our sin (Jam 2:13). God has demonstrated this by undergoing tremendous suffering of behalf of the world (Rom 5:8) without any guarantee that anyone will love Him for it (1 Tim 2:4).

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Now, of course people can reject God's unconditional love. But that doesn't make it unconditional. It just means the person wouldn't receive it.

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I think you meant "But that doesn't make it conditional" instead of unconditional. Christ's work on the cross is a demonstration of unconditional love. But, for that love to be effective a person must receive it (2 Cor 5:14-21). Do you agree with that?

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And that is the best definition of hell I can imagine.

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I agree. But I would also include that God will one day put those who reject Him outside of time - that is, He'll one day annihilate them

chance

A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth

Edited by - chance on 11/25/2001 03:00:09 AM

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Doc: Exactly. As you see YOURSELF in CHRIST, you understand that you're worth and nature is defined by Christ, and thus that sin is unworthy of you and against your essential nature. You can now see the sin as something that you don't need, is not good for you, is not delivering on what it promised, and thus you are empowered to release it. Just "hating it" as a part of loathing yourself will --guaranteed -- just drive you further into it.

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Doc: b) If God loves on us to the extent that we are free from sin, but hates us to the extent that we are not free from sin, then we are lost causes. For being compatible with God requires sinlessness.

Now, of course people can reject God's unconditional love. But that doesn't make it unconditional. It just means the person wouldn't receive it.

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The verse I thought of while reading this is the one where Jesus is dying on the cross and says, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

That statement to me sounds pretty UNCONDITIONAL. The "them" that Jesus is asking forgiveness for are the same "them" that have just put him up on the cross (sinned).

Hmmm?
trosie

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Christ is asking the Father to forgive them for committing deicide. They murdered God in ignorance according to what Peter said in what is probably his most significant sermon in Acts.

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"The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [Him] go. 14 "But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 "and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 "And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which [comes] through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 17 "Yet now, brethren, I know that you did [it] in ignorance, as [did] also your rulers.

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Israel had rejected the Father and then they rtejected the Son when they crucified Him. They were given one more chance when God poured out the Spirit in Acts. At the end of the fourth year if the nation had not repented and rejected each member of the Trinity God would cut down Israel. That seems to be exactly what happened.

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Luke 13:6-9 He also spoke this parable: "A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 "Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' 8 "But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize [it.] 9 'And if it bears fruit, [well.] But if not, after that you can cut it down.' "

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I believe that the man who came seeking fruit on the fig tree was Christ. I believe that God dug around and fertilized the fig tree (Israel) when He poured out the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. Because Israel did not bear fruit at the end of the fourth year God made good on His threat and cut it down. When He did this He raised up Paul (Acts 9) and made the Gentiles clean (Acts 10:11-15).

I hope that clarifies what Christ was saying on the cross. I went off on a bit of a tangent, but I thought that in answering your question that some further explanation would help. And I hope you don't think my explanation is heretical like Modes apparently does .

chance

A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth

Edited by - chance on 11/25/2001 04:53:55 AM

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Doc said

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Doc: Exactly. As you see YOURSELF in CHRIST, you understand that you're worth and nature is defined by Christ, and thus that sin is unworthy of you and against your essential nature. You can now see the sin as something that you don't need, is not good for you, is not delivering on what it promised, and thus you are empowered to release it. Just "hating it" as a part of loathing yourself will --guaranteed -- just drive you further into it.

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I don't believe that "loathing yourself" is necessary for you to hate the evil that you have done. We are identified with Christ once we trust in Him and receive His forgiveness. We are no longer identified with the sin we have committed (Rom 3:19; 1 Cor 6:9-12) because Christ took that sin away when He became sin on the cross for us. His work became effectual when we received Christ.

We should still hate evil as God has commanded even though we are no longer identified by our sin.

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In a Fine Arts Division faculty meeting one time the Dutch Christian-Art-Criticism scholar and philosopher Hans Rookmacher was taking a beating at the hand (or mouth) of my colleague Lee K. His criticism was that Rookmacher was behind the times, offering only paradigms that did not fit the present and might prove as misleading at times as helpful at others. in Rookmacher's defense I simply said that Lee should give Rookmacher a break because Rookmacher was dead, and therefore incapable of revising or updating his views. Lee let out a belly laugh.

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That's great! I am definitely going to have to remember that one...

Thanks,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

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if we are no longer identified by our sin, and "loathing yourself" is not necessary for hating the evil we have done, why do you identify the abortionist with their sin, and hate them?

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you asked

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You call them "unrepentant" abortionists, which is the loophole you give yourself for hating them, but are you saying you are a mind-reader? Another concept from TNT is that we cannot know what is in another person's mind by making assumptions based on their actions. How in the world do you know what is inside them, their true feelings and fears and griefs and regrets?

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Hmmmm. How do I know that the abortionists who I am actively hating (by protesting and attempting to persuade girls not to go in and murder their babies) are unrepentant abortionists? There's one big clue that tips me off and gives me almost 100% epistemological certitude that they are unrepentant abortionists. It's the fact that they are inside the clinic performing abortions. That's how I know that they are unrepentant abortionists.

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