quote:

---

In his welcoming address of Patriarch Bartholomew reminded the participants that "Here, at the Great Church of Hagia Sophia, a number of devoted women such as St. Olympias, served as deaconesses . . . To both women and men, to both clergy and laity, these women saints continue to be a source of inspiration, for it is written, ‘God is revealed in His saints!’" His Holiness also noted the "call for the full restoration of the order of women deacons . . . The order of women deacons is an undeniable part of tradition coming from the early Church. Now, in many of our Churches, there is a growing desire to restore this order so that the spiritual needs of the people of God may be better served. There are already a number of women who appear to be called to this ministry."

---

quote:

---

No problem is going to go away quickly.

---

quote:

---

Tigress,

I think there is an important distinction between women in ministry and women in positions of leadership. Many don't have problems with the first. Many HAVE problems with the second.

Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16

---

quote:

---

Something ELSE I've become aware of. Those "Easterners" (like my brother-in-law) point out that individuals[/] don't choose callings. Going to seminary does not guarantee that one is "chosen" to be a priest. Having talent and ability does not. Nor should favor from one person in power.

The SPIRIT chooses.


Our cultural trend is to say "Go for it." But that is, by nature, a wrong-headed thing. Callings are affirmed. Not sought. Sometimes they are accepted with kicking and screaming.

Have to think about that.

---

quote:

---

(A guy who thinks women usually are much more spiritual than men, and that they are the most wonderful of all God's creation, not to mention a vast improvement on us ugly old guys).

---

Don't sell yourself short, you cut quite a handsome figure:





One nurse to another: "Check his feet and see if they're cold. No one ever died with warm feet."

Dying man's last words: "John Hus did."

quote:

---

First, the command for women to "keep silent in the churches," (along with the command that they "not teach, nor usurp authority over a man,"*) must, as all scripture, be interpreted in context, both textually and culturally. What this passage appears to address is the problem of the apparently out-of-hand situation at Corinth, where ladies were apparently interrupting the services continually, asking doctrinal questions during teaching and preaching.

This can not be a command to utter silence, as Paul's instructions in 11:5 of 1 Cor. clearly refers to women "prophesying or praying" (note he does not forbid this, only gives instruction as to the proper way to have this happen) in a meeting should observe proper decorum in order to permit a worship service to be as profitable to all as possible. The injunction to keep silent, if interpreted in the context, is meant to curb unruly behavior, not women's participation in general, as I understand scripture to teach. Paul makes it quite clear that "in Christ" there is neither "slave nor free, Jew nor Gentile, Greek nor Barbarian, male nor female, but we are all one in Christ Jesus."

In fact, in the last chapter of Romans (16) Paul refers to several women who were active in the recognized ministry of the early Church, including Phoebe (who is referred to by the same word which is used for "minister" or "servant" all throughout the NT--by Christ, Paul, and others), who apparently had a very visible role in the carrying of this most important letter to Rome. Not only this, Junia is mentioned in v.7 as a female apostle, something unnoticed or unrecognized by many people today. I believe there are six or seven ladies mentioned here, all with a commendation of their ministry by Paul in ch. 16 of Romans alone.

*With regard to Paul's statement, "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man,” Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, a native of Cyprus (who is also a native Modern Greek speaker) and respected fundamentalist theologian, in his _Complete Word Study New Testament_ (AMG Bible Publishers) footnote on this verse points out that the words for woman and man here are the same as for wife and husband (which the following phrase, "saved in childbearing" would bear out, too), and that the word teach here is better translated "to dictate to" or "speak authoritatively to" (or to boss around, in other words), and that this does not in context mean that no women can ever teach men in the church, necessarily.

Related to this my question is, "If women are not qualified to teach men because of their gullibility or some other character flaw somehow inherited through Eve, how can we say that they are qualified to teach other women, young ladies, children, or even anybody at all?" Wouldn't the same disqualifications apply to them teaching each other, as they would surely lead each other into deeper and deeper deception thus, if indeed they are somehow not able to teach men, as some interpret this passage to mean?

As to their being "saved by childbearing," it is well recognized by Greek scholars that the word here translated "by" can just as easily be translated "through" or "in," making this verse make much more sense, IMO. That is, in the time the NT was written death during childbirth was not uncommon, and apparently this not a restriction on women but rather a promise of health and safe delivery of babies through prayer.

From an historical point of view, there is evidence nearly from the start of the post apostolic period (A.D. 100 to 325) of women being recognized in official status as orders of Eldresses, Deaconesses, and Virgins. (Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons referred to all three of these categories and paralleled them to the male offices of Elder, Deacon, and Virgin). Tertullian (ca. 175-220 A.D.), Bishop of Carthage spoke of all these offices as well, in addition to prophetesses. Interestingly all these offices were referred to in the original NT writings in Greek, but were translated later as "elder's wife," "deacon's wife," etc., apparently by someone who had an axe to grind. There are also extant today in some of the catacombs Christian paintings of ladies dressed in priestly garments in the position of a bishop giving a blessing.

Finally, with the marriage of the Church to the Roman Empire in the fourth century A.D., women were first banned from being bishops, later from being priests, then deacons, and so on, until all they were allowed to do was pray silently and sing with the congregation as part of the worship. These official rulings by the Church councils presupposes that some women were indeed exercising such roles at the time, else such rulings make no sense at all--if women had not been active in such ministry at the time, and had in fact been forbidden from public ministry since apostolic times, no such ruling in the fourth and fifth would have been necessary.

For more information on this subject I would refer you to the _Concise Evangelical Dictionary of Theology_, (Baker Book House, 1984), article entitled "Women, Role of in the Church," as well as the Assemblies of God and Foursquare position papers concerning women in ministry.

Sincerely and respectfully submitted for your kind consideration.

God bless,

John
(A guy who thinks women usually are much more spiritual than men, and that they are the most wonderful of all God's creation, not to mention a vast improvement on us ugly old guys).






"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

---

quote:

---

I wonder who is interpreting scriptures to make it fit the times and therefore more secularistic.

www.americanwasteland.com/landsubmission.html

Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16

---

quote:

---

Hi John,

I explained all this to my brother last Thursday night, but his argument is that people with this position are simply interpreting the Bible in a way that fits their own personal desires. He's beginning to take a more literal stance on reading the Bible. He believes that this issue has only arisen in the last few decades because of the feminest movement, and that since the early church times, God's command has always only been for men to assume spiritual leadership roles. So obviously my brother's position is somewhat more rigid and judgemental, unfortunately.

Hopefully, God will make things more clear to him soon.

Tigress

---

quote:

---

Here is Doc's take, think it's good stuff... www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=282

Ross

"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid

---

Thanks for the link, Ross. I e-mailed it to my brother. I hope he reads it all the way through.

Tigress

The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7

quote:

---

I wonder who is interpreting scriptures to make it fit the times and therefore more secularistic.

www.americanwasteland.com/landsubmission.html

Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16

---

quote:

---

from The Altar and the Direction of Liturgical Prayer, by the Roman Catholic's Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
http://www.adoremus.org/0500-Ratzinger.html

• Because of topographical circumstances, it turned out that Saint Peter's faced west. Thus, if the celebrating priest wanted -- as the Christian tradition of prayer demands -- to face east, he had to stand behind the people and look ... toward the people.


• On the other hand, a common turning to the East during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential. This is not a case of accidentals, but of essentials. Looking at the priest has no importance. What matters is looking together at the Lord. It is not now a question of dialogue, but of common worship, of setting off towards the One who is to come. What corresponds with the reality of what is happening is not the closed circle, but the common movement forward expressed in a common direction for prayer....


• For just as the congregation in the synagogue looked together toward Jerusalem, so in the Christian Liturgy the congregation looked together "toward the Lord". As one of the fathers of Vatican II's Constitution on the Liturgy, J.A. Jungmann, put it, it was much more a question of priest and people facing in the same direction, knowing that together they were in a procession toward the Lord. They did not lock themselves into a circle, they did not gaze at one another, but as the pilgrim People of God they set off for the Oriens, for the Christ who comes to meet us....

---

quote:

---

My brother and sister inlaw's tradition (eastern Orthodox) has long, long, long had spiritual guides who were of both genders. Wisdom is like that, and the Spirit too. Yet they do have some gender differentiation, in a few instances. STILL.... This comment is interesting and revelatory (small-r):

quote:

---

from The Altar and the Direction of Liturgical Prayer, by the Roman Catholic's Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
http://www.adoremus.org/0500-Ratzinger.html

• Because of topographical circumstances, it turned out that Saint Peter's faced west. Thus, if the celebrating priest wanted -- as the Christian tradition of prayer demands -- to face east, he had to stand behind the people and look ... toward the people.


• On the other hand, a common turning to the East during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential. This is not a case of accidentals, but of essentials. Looking at the priest has no importance. What matters is looking together at the Lord. It is not now a question of dialogue, but of common worship, of setting off towards the One who is to come. What corresponds with the reality of what is happening is not the closed circle, but the common movement forward expressed in a common direction for prayer....


• For just as the congregation in the synagogue looked together toward Jerusalem, so in the Christian Liturgy the congregation looked together "toward the Lord". As one of the fathers of Vatican II's Constitution on the Liturgy, J.A. Jungmann, put it, it was much more a question of priest and people facing in the same direction, knowing that together they were in a procession toward the Lord. They did not lock themselves into a circle, they did not gaze at one another, but as the pilgrim People of God they set off for the Oriens, for the Christ who comes to meet us....

---

The MINISTER is a SERVANT in a COMMON thing that is the WORK of the people of God -- that is, "worship"/litrea

So who cares who does what?

---

• http://www.akins.org/matthew/women.html



• T. HOPKO, Women and the Priesthood, St Vladimir's Seminary, New York 1983
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0881410055/qid=1053861516/sr=lmlf-2/ref=cm_lm_asin/002-8123126-4188842?v=glance



• http://www.antiochian.org/midwest/Articles/Women's_Ordination.htm

• http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/14.3docs/14-3pg42.html