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Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 8:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | Homosexuality
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Is there anyone here who can come up with a logical argument for or against homosexuality? I, though a heterosexual myself, have argued in favor of gay right for quite some time...and in my experience, no religious group can give an answer better than "the Bible says so." Care to prove me wrong?
~Lucifer Daimaou~
churchmouse522
04/10/01 10:02 AM
RE: Homosexuality
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Hi Lucifer, (Pretty provocative name)
I just wanted to respond briefly to your inquiry. When you say that the only rational Christians can give you is "the bible says so", please understand that is not an insignificant thing. We believe that scripture is the ultimate authority.
Now, having said that, there are a wide variety of Christian views on this subject. I, myself, have several friends who are gay, and I love them dearly. My approach to them reflects this love, and I think any Christian who is consistent with the heart of the gospel would do the same. Whatever view a Christian espouses on this subject, it is damaging to treat the gay community as though they have committed some special class of sin.
I hope this clarifies things a little bit for you, even though I didn't really deal with your specific question.
Churchmouse
writerdad
04/10/01 12:22 PM
RE: Homosexuality
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Lucifer: The whole issue is one that needs to be studied honestly and with a great deal of diligence. No, I do not think someone can convince you that homosexuality is wrong just by posting some Bible verses on this website, or by quoting statistics, particularly since you already have the attitude that it isn't wrong.
I echo churchmouse's sentiments: the Bible is THE guidebook on how to live for Christian's and while you may not agree, to Christians, it holds great weight. Realizing that fully may help you understand where Christians are coming from.
There are some very good books out there from a Christian point of view, particularly Thomas Schmidt's Straight and Narrow, if you are truly interested in understanding the Christian point of view. There are many logical arguments as to why homosexuality is wrong. You may not agree with them, but that does not mean they are not out there.
It should also be noted that just because one believes homosexuality is sin, doesn't mean that Christians do not love homosexuals. I, as with churchmouse, have a few homosexual friends. They know my views and I know theirs and we usually steer clear of issues that may offended the other (for instance, I am not overbearing in my view of homosexuality as a sin, and they try not to be overly physical with their "significant other," in my presense). But that doesn't mean that I have ill feelings towards them. Jesus hung with the lost and, since are all lost at one point or another, we are called to do so as well. Good luck in your search...John 17:3 Harold
Lucifer_Daimaou
04/10/01 1:57 PM
Ok, let's see...
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...first off, let me say that I have the upmost respect for people, such as yourselves who; though they may have slightly illogical beliefs, have treated actual homosexuals and, from what I can tell, human beings in general, very kindly. That said, I'd like to make a point:
There really isn't any logical reason why homosexuality is wrong. The Bible may have a great weight on your lives, but, for one thing, it never clearly states (to my knowledge) that homosexuality is wrong, for another, it should not be the entire basis for anyone's beliefs. One book alone is not enough...there are so many out there that have equal merit.
The only real reason, other than the foolish (in my opinion) Bible/sin business for thinking that homosexuality is wrong would be the man/woman romantic tradition. Should tradition run our lives? I don't think so.
Once again, both of you--you both seem to be wonderful people (better than myself, I wouldn't doubt), but I just cannot see any logical reason why anyone would dissaprove of the act of homosexuality.
~Lucifer Daimaou~
Triskal
04/10/01 7:06 PM
RE: Homosexuality
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First of all, just like the others, i'd like to state that I do not hate homosexuals. Although I do not approve of their lifestyle, I treat them with love just as any other person who does something I do not approve of. That having been said, I am going to tell you the reasons for me not approving of that lifestyle.
#1. The Bible CLEARLY does not approve of it:
"Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.' Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, 'No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.'" - Gen. 19:4-8
Here we see that Lot refferred to the act of the men of Sodom having sex with the men in his house as "a wicked thing". He even offered his two daughters to them instead. The term "Sodomy", which refers to men having sex with other men, originated from the men of Sodom who would have sexual relations with eachother. As a result of these horrible practices, God destroyed that city with great wrath. We can clearly see from this how opposed God is to homosexuality. It destroys the original design of the family: husband, wife, and children.
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." - Lev. 18:22
We see here that homosexuality is "detestable" to God. That clearly shows how much God hates homosexuality. Not saying that he hates those who are homosexuals, what they do is what he hates.
"In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." - Rom. 1:26
In this verse, we are told that sexual relations between men are "indecent" and a "perversion". That's pretty clear evidence that the Bible is strongly against homosexuality. Anyone that calls himself a gay Christian is very decieved and does not understand the teachings of God in the Bible.
I think we can pretty much see that God and the Bible are very much against homosexuality and the practice of sex between two men.
#2. Man and woman were created for eachother:
They were designed to be able to have proper sexual relations together. Not so with homosexuals. Man was not created or designed to have sexual intimacy with his own gender. This is so obvious by the horrible AIDS virus which plagues homosexuals. It's just proof that men were not meant to have that kind of relationship together. If it were the design of God to allow men to have that kind of relationship he would have designed men to be able to have children. One of the main purposes of sex is to be able to have children, to continue the family line. Obviously homosexuals cannot have children together, unless of course they are allowed to adopt.
#3. Homosexuality is strongly supported by secular humanism:
The secular humanists, who believe there is no such things as moral absoloute truths (i.e. right and wrong) They fight viciously to get homosexual marriages and homosexual adoption made legal. Secular humanists are the same people who took God, prayer, the Bible, and the ten commandments out of the public school. They have no respect for morality, religion, or anything to do with God. They're opposed to the true design of the family. They hate anything to do with Western civilization. They are working to create a one-world government in which communism is the only form. We have seen clearly from history that communism has resulted in the murder of tens of thousands of people, including the Jews in the holocaust. Secular humanists are the reason that abortion is so popular. The things which they support have resulted in a decline of morality in America. Because of their teachings we have problems like AIDS, School shootings, euthanasia, evolution, child pornography, and communist teachings in the school. The same people that support these kinds of things also heavily support homosexuality. If you agree with homosexuality then you are agreeing with all of the things I listed above, because they all resulted from the same style of thinking
(i.e. morality and ethics are relative)
These are the main reasons that I do not agree with homosexuality. I am not saying that we should make it our mission to go on a hate mission of persecuting homosexuals. What I am saying is that it as just as much of a problem as abortion, evolution, and everything else I listed above. These are all problems which have lead to a decline in morality in our country and the rest of the world. Homosexuals need to be reached out to with love and taught that God is there for them and he wants them to turn from their ways and serve Him. God loves them just as much as he loves everyone else. Let us reach out to them with the love of Jesus Christ.
In His Grip,
Matt
writerdad
04/10/01 10:51 PM
RE: Ok, let's see...
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Lucifer: did want to make one quick comment: you simply do not seem to understand how Christians view the Bible. One book is not enough...there are so many out there that have equal merit. NOT TO THE CHRISTIAN. Let me put it in more simplier terms: for the sake of argument, let's suppose there was a God who created a world. And he created people to live on this world. And he had dealings with these people...and he inspired some of those people to write down things that he wanted them to write down (though in their own words), things that would help them live right, things he wanted to tell them. That is what the Bible is for Christians. That is why the Bible is enough and there are no other book of similiar merit. Until you understand this, you cannot understand the impact the Bible has on Christians. I would also like to add that not only does the Bible clearly condemn homosexuality but so has the Christian church consistantly done so throughout its history.
I would check out Joe Dallas's books on homosexuality, since he was a homosexual and since one is on the "christian" homosexual movement. Again, it is an subject that should be studied from all sides before one makes a decision.
Good luck on your search for the truth...John 17:3 Harold
trosie
04/10/01 11:35 PM
RE: RE: Homosexuality
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"Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.'" - Gen. 19:8
What's this all about??? Reading this kind of upsets me because it appears to me that Lot isn't too concerned with protecting his own daughters. Now, I am sure I am missing the meaning here but to me it would look as if Lot is just as guilty of committing a sin as the men he is addressing in this passage.
WOW! The issue of homosexuality is such a touchy topic, especially amongst Christians, I am so glad to read that everyone else has responded in love to this issue. I know people who so harshly judge homosexual behavior (much more than other sins) that they end up judging the entire person's worth.
I am curious about Genesis 19:8?
trosie
writerdad
04/11/01 1:05 PM
RE: RE: RE: Homosexuality
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Trosie: a couple of things to remember in the Genesis passage, first, it seems to me that Lot was hoping that this would applease the men and, perhaps, redeem them in some way from the perversion they were under. Second, just because Lot offered them does not mean God approved of it, nor that God would have allowed it to happen if the men accepted the offer. The Bible records many things that God does not approve of. It should also be noted that, for better or worse, the biblical times were times when women were not thought of as worth as much as men. I think Lot was trying to protect his guests in the best (though wrong) way he could, but it was a pretty hopeless situation and the angels ended up stepping in and protecting them. John 17:3 Harold
Lucifer_Daimaou
04/11/01 1:45 PM
And you've got to realize...
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...that your blind faith, in terms of your opinions towards homosexuals, is ludicrous in my eyes. I understand that the Bible is the basis of Christian life...I'm just waiting for Christians to realize that the Bible is several centuries out of date in terms of some of its moral teachings.
~Lucifer Daimaou~
Triskal
04/11/01 8:39 PM
RE: And you've got to realize...
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I believe I gave you two other good solid reasons, without using the Bible. There are many other ways of telling that homosexuality is not a natural thing, and not something that benefits the involved parties. Please read my post again if you did not understand it the first time. The Bible was not the only thing I used.
In His Grip,
Matt
writerdad
04/11/01 11:19 PM
RE: And you've got to realize...
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Luther: actually, your assertion that we have "blind faith," simply shows how little you know about the Bible, its origins, how it has impacted society in general (and contrary to what most people believe, the positive far out weighs the negative) and why people choose to believe in such an out of date book. I would suggest you read "The Case For Faith," by Lee Strobel to begin with. Plus, I find it interesting that, considering how out of date such a book is, that so many people who should know better believe it is God's word. For instance, Dallas Willard, professor (former head of department) of philosophy at USC, believes it is the word of God. As does William Dembski, Ph.D in mathematics from University of Chicago, author of The Design Inference and other books. There are, of course, many other scholarly people who, given how backwards the Bible is, should know better than to believe the Bible is the word of God. Perhaps you should try and show why you believe the Bible is so out of date, instead of simply stating your opinion. The point, while you consider it out of date, far more people believe their lives can be changed by following it. John 17:3 Harold
Lucifer_Daimaou
04/14/01 7:14 AM
Don't give me that. OF COURSE it's blind faith
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If you let a book think for you, then it is blind faith. If you refuse to formulate your own logical arguments, but instead, allow the teachings of a RELIGION formulate then, it is blind faith.
The positives outweigh the negatives, hmmm? Let's go through the negatives, then:
-The Crusades
-In Iquisition
-The Persecution of Jews (in Russia, mainly)
-The Persecution of homosexuals
-A fear of actual knowledge and science, and thus, a damper in progress
-The oppression of Galileo
-The oppression of Darwin
-The Reformation/Counter Reformation
I could keep going, but I think you get the general idea. There is no real evidence that the Bible is any more right than the Quran, the Torah, or any number of other holy books. It is no more unique from them than they are from each other; in the end, it all boils down to BLIND FAITH.
~Lucifer Daimaou~
Lucifer_Daimaou
04/14/01 7:17 AM
Don't be a fool.
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If homosexuality was unnatural, why would it happen in nature? If God didn't intend for it to happen, why would it happen continually?
You fool, it's people like you that will push a homosexual into marrying a woman, having children and a family, and living in utter misery because they're with someone they're not in the least bit attracted to. When they finally break down and can't take it any longer, they then have a whole family that suffers.
But no; We're Christian, obviously the BIBLE is right. The act is the only thing that's wrong, so let's tell them to suppress their actual FEELINGS for our SELFISH BLIND FAITH.
~Lucifer Daimaou~
Triskal
04/14/01 7:07 PM
RE: Don't give me that. OF COURSE it's blind faith
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Do any of the negatives you listed have anything to do with the teachings of the Bible? Much of those things were part of the church in the middle ages, mainly catholic, that perverted the teachings of the Bible. The Bible teaches to love thy neighbor, unfortunately they didn't follow that command (which Jesus said to be the second greatest command) when they persecuted Jews. When you compare the Bible to the Torah you are basically comparing the complete Bible to the Old Testament, because that's all the Torah is, the Old Testament.
You're accusing us of blind faith because we believe that the most published book ever written is a credible source of morality? As seen from the lives of men and women who have actually lived according to the teachings of the Bible, it certainly is the best source of morality and ethics. Let me ask you a question, where do you get your morality or ethics from?
In His Grip,
Matt
Triskal
04/14/01 9:45 PM
RE: Don't be a fool.
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Homosexuality is not the natural way of life that God intended man to have, the same as murder isn't, yet murder happens in nature. Plenty of things happen that God does not intend to have happen, simply because he gave man freewill. I do not push anyone to do anything, I simply try to point people to God, and let Him work in their lives. Talk to some of the thousands of Christian men who were formally homosexuals, you'll see that none of them are miserable they way they are now. In fact, they will tell you that they were much more miserable before they turned from their old way of living. Our faith is in no way selfish. What could be selfish about trying to reach out to others with love and compassion for them? Again, look to the Bible, it says to "love thy neighbor". You keep on confusing the Bible with the one who TRIES to abide by it. You're trying to say that Christianity is wrong because some Christians persecute homosexuals, even though the Bible (which is our basis for faith and which you say is wrong) says it's wrong to persecute others. Okay, so now you are agreeing with the Bible?
In His Grip,
Matt
writerdad
04/14/01 9:32 PM
RE: Don't be a fool.
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Gee, Luther, I would think in a time of tolerance and relativism, you would be a little more tolerant of those who differ from you. Seems you are being just a tad judgmental there (and I might add, a bit rude). I don't see where anyone is making anyone marry anyone. No one makes anyone do anything. If a person who is gay marries someone because they think they have to, that is a decision THEY make and therefore THEY are responsible for that decision. I certainly don't see anyone putting a gun to anyone's head and saying, "you must marry someone." Seems to me you are the one leaving logic, not us.
As far as a book leading us, everyone is lead by something or someone, it just depends on where one puts their allegience (I believe it was the great Bob Dylan who said everyone has "gotta serve somebody.). You say people should allow logic to lead them. Go read five different philosophers and you'll get five different LOGICAL versions of the truth. If we dug into what you believe, we would find that you lean towards a particular view of life that you hold to that someone taught before. As a wise man once wrote, "there is nothing new under the son."
I would answer you about why homosexuality occurs in nature if God didn't intend it to happen, but since you have already labeled us fools, it is obvious that you are not interested in honest discussion and debate about the subject, but rather seem to be inclined to labels and name calling of those who you seem to feel are not as logical as you. Anyway, I pray you pick up the books I recommended to you and take an honest look at the Christian faith instead of the stereotypes you seem to want to believe. Be praying for you. John 17:3 Harold
Mephi2K
04/14/01 9:46 PM
"Hi, My Name Is...": Satirical Princes of Darkness Meet For Discussion
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Dear Lucifer,
Very interesting thoughts. Just some questions.
You said:
"You fool, it's people like you that will push a homosexual into marrying a woman, having children and a family, and living in utter misery because they're with someone they're not in the least bit attracted to. When they finally break down and can't take it any longer, they then have a whole family that suffers."
Meph:
Are you referring to Mel White? I know that there are other cases, but his is one that stands out clearly in my mind.
***********************************
You said:
"If you let a book think for you, then it is blind faith. If you refuse to formulate your own logical arguments, but instead, allow the teachings of a RELIGION formulate then, it is blind faith."
Meph:
Now, I find this statement interesting. I've heard it before, but I still find it interesting. It would be helpful for this discussion if we get some epistemological benchmarks. Could you give a brief, yet sufficient definition for each of the following terms?
1) Knowledge
2) Faith
3) Reason
4) Belief
5) Truth
6) Evidence
All of the above are terms that will be CENTRAL to getting to the heart of your "blind faith" accusation against Christianity. I would like to argue that, if all people would be honest with themselves, ALL people with ALL varieties of belief are AGNOSTIC in a real sense about the world around them. Moreover, I would challenge your claim of Christianity being a "blind faith" on the grounds that NO "faith" is ever truly blind. (Oh, yes...) So, Lucifer, how about it? Care to discuss this?
************************************
You said:
"There really isn't any logical reason why homosexuality is wrong."
Meph:
Would you like to argue more from a moral standpoint or a physical ramifications standpoint? We could go either way. Actually, to be honest, I'd like to spend more time with the section above because that will ultimate determine the viability of our sources of moral reasoning anyways. Game?
From One Purveyor of Demonic Nomenclature to Another,
Sir Mephistopheles 2K
PS: Happy Easter!
writerdad
04/14/01 9:59 PM
RE: "Hi, My Name Is...": Satirical Princes of Darkness Meet For Discussion
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Mephi: actually, I would hope this discussion would continue, for though you and I differ on many beliefs, I genuinely respect your ability to search things out logically (you do it much better than I ever could).
I did, though, want to add a couple points for Lucifier. First, if you are going to bring up the church's sins, it is only fair that you adknowledge the tremendous good done as well. For instance, hospitals originated with Christians in ancient times because they saw a need to care for the poor and those nobody else wanted. For instance, today there are those narrow minded Christians who abuse homosexuals. There are also many Christians who care for AIDS victims, drug abusers, the poor (I would go on, but you get my point). Another thing on the subject: Christianity suffers from the same problem other religions do: the abuses of those who claim to be followers yet do not follow the true teachings of their religion. For instance, there are those who would use evolution to claim that some races are inferior (which has happened in the past, by the way). But that does not make the actual belief of evolution neccessary false, now does it?
Finally, there are actual good reasons, aside from religious, to believe homosexuality is wrong. There one who has members of my family in the medical profession, the damage done by the sexual acts of homosexuals is rather is easy to document. There are also good sociatal reasons as well. As I said, pick up "THe Straight And NArrow," by Schmidt. Well researched...take care. John 17:3 Harold
esp821
04/17/01 7:16 AM
RE: And you've got to realize...
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If you didn't want to know, then why did you ask?
Misevac
04/19/01 10:24 PM
RE: Don't give me that. OF COURSE it's blind faith
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Hi Lucifer. I am just joining this discussion...thanks for bringing g up this issue because I believe that it is an important one. So you know where I am coming from...I had an immediate family member who struggled with homosexuality and was also a Christian. I learned a lot from him about the gay lifestyle and also about how some Christians can be very cruel. I appreciate how you demand that the Christian argument make logical sense, because it should. However, I encourage you to continue to dialogue with Meph and the rest of us because I think your judgment of blind faith is wrong.
Most of the people o this board are here because it is important for us to make sense of our beliefs. And like it or not, even if you are an atheist or put your hope in science, etc. you work within belief systems that at some point have to accept in "faith" one or more presuppositions that cannot be unequivocally proven. So in that sense, we all have some “blind faith.”
As far as the list you gave of the inquisition, etc...I could give the same "dirty" list for science as well. Hey don't get me wrong...Science is incredible, but what about:
The atomic bomb, biological warfare (basically there is a science on how to make people suffer…talk about sick!). What about the “scientists” that performed grotesque experiments conducted on the Jews during the holocaust? I could also list many more.
Now, of course you would say that just because some science has been used for evil, does not mean that science itself is to blame. Nor does it mean that we should stop pursuing science. We would say the same about Christianity. And as a wise friend of mine stated, "I would never defend the Christian religion, only the personal relationship with Christ." So you are right…the Christian religion has done some horrible things, but you are wrong (understandably so) to think that this is a reflection of Christ or the Bible.
One other thing, you said that there is no evidence that the bible has more credibility than books of other religions and so I am wondering what kind of studying that you have done in this area? I know you must have done a great deal because you wouldn’t want to have a “blind faith” that the bible was not credible, and it seems important for you to “think for yourself” which tells me you have taken a lot of time in thinking and studying all of the evidence that supports the bible! Just a little jokin’ with ya Luc…don’t be offended…we’re glad to have you on this board!
The Mise
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