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Eli
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 7/13/2003 10:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | Alright, I recently started attending a local church group. It's primarily people around the ages 16-23 led by a woman in her mid 40's. I've known of this group for a couple years now but when I first heard about it I got all my information from non-believers. It had (and still has) a reputation as being a cult. So, when a friend of mine said he was going to check it out I decided to tag along. Now let me tell you, all these kids are just on fire for God. The worship service is the best I've been to since visiting my sister in YWAM. No focus on the music, just God God God. I feel the Him moving through the room before the music even starts.
Now, the first night I was there it was being led by the two youth leaders (for lack of a better term, the whole group is youth, but these two serve under the leader as counselers). It was kind of a sermon discussion mix, they had a topic picked out beforehand and scripture to talk about but microphones were passed back and forth between the group for questions/comments. It was really cool, you can totally tell the whole group has a heart to learn and some real devotion for God.
The second time I was there, the pastor (pastress?  ) did an improv sermon and led the group in intercessory prayer for an coming event where they were planning on doing ministry. Now, I'm not one to jump to conclusions or let other people's opinions of someone affect my own (at least to some extent). So walking into this group I was trying to look at this without letting what I had heard previosly affect my opinion of the group (about the cult). But, man, I didn't like Grace (thats the leader) from the beginning. She just immediately gave me a bad vibe. Humm... ok, so this night of prayer I can totally feel the presence of God in the room. Grace was speaking and it all really synched with what I know of scripture and it seemed really inspired. But then little things in what she said started jumping out at me.
For instance, she puts a really heavy emphasis on the spiritual side of things. Basically, if you're in a bad mood, you have a spirit of this. If you have a cold, you have a spirit of that. Spirits of anger, depression, fear, oppression, poverty, etc etc. Now, I like Boyd's warfare theodicy, but his seems a bit more balanced than this. They seem to stress the spiritual side to the point that it takes any responsibility to change off the person. Here's an example from last time: Grace says this, "Just because we are saved, does not mean we can't still have demons in the soul. Let's call our 'negative ingrained attitudes' - 'demons'. Who here has demons they need to be rid of?!". At the time I was still stuck on the first two sentences, trying to figure out if I was hearing that right. But everyone in the room instantly throws their hands in the air, "Yes, I have demons". This is where I really get nervous. Now if I'm wrong and her theodicy is ok, then fine, but if not... that whole group is pretty young in Jesus and is instantly drinking in everything she has to teach. There was no "Hey did she just say that?" going through peoples head's. It was instant acception.
I guess I don't really have a question exactly... just looking for input.
"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/13/2003 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | | I think there is wisdom in the first protestants of not denying the reality of the spiritual but not focusing our energies on it either.
Demon-talk is too subject to manipulation. If you look at the WMD link you get Doc's view of int'l manipulations as that the kingdoms of this world are still under the control of Satan and so it doesn't surprise him that there was manipulation...
The problem with this line of reasoning is that it is hard to follow up along, since Boyd, in particular, is a bit-rusty in exorcising territorial spirits...
I think the material-spiritual dichotomy is not that strong and that when we deal with things, without direct reference to their spiritual nature, we still deal with the spiritual nature of things. That is why it would never make sense to not use medicines to heal people or to only pray for them. We still should pray, but demon-talk overall tends to either turn people off or get people over-excited.
Imagine people being afraid of their own shadow since Germs might be out to enter their system and make them sick. Now, this in fact is probably true, but we do have immune systems that manage such hazards in such a manner and we have habits that prevent us from getting terribly infected and so we don't need to consciously concern ourselves with the germs present in our atmosphere. I tend to view the demonic in the same way. There are times when I have felt under attack when I have written to friends and prayed for strength and deliverance, but that is how I usually deal with it.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybdfryr
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybdfryr
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
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Empiress
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 7/13/2003 7:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Generally all it takes for a heresy to develop is for a teaching to get slightly skewed. In fact, one of the reasons heresy can be so troublesome is that it often appears harmless at first and is more a matter of "emphasis" than anything else. For example, the heresy of "docetism" simply emphasized Jesus' divinity over his humanity, stating that he merely appeared human but was fully divine.
This seems a bit like what may be happening in this group. The truth of demonic possession including what many would call demonic "oppression" (which happens to believers) is being way over-emphasized. We always have to be careful not to find a devil under every rock. Yet equally dangerous is ignoring the demonic altogether. CS Lewis in his writings warns of this and calls for striking a balance.
Of course, I believe God works among even heretical or "skewed" communities, so the fact that you sense the Spirit there is not suprising (if he didn't we'd all be in trouble btw!). However, there are still dangers. I think you're right to be concerned. It would be helpful if questions were put to her about what she means when she speaks of demons and whether there might be natural/chemical etc. causes for some of what she refers to as "demons." Or maybe she's simply using that word as metaphor. At the very least it sounds rather off base. No pastor should be allowed to go totally unchallenged or not held accountable.
Peace to you,
~E
Edited by - Empiress on 07/14/2003 4:17:12 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/14/2003 7:18 AM (GMT -6) | | I think many of us who have actually been through these kinds of things in the charismatic movement (including me) have found this stuff to be nothing more than hype at best and deception at worst. Where does one find in the New Testament any evidence whatsoever that most Christians are in need of regular exorcisms? Sounds like Flip Wilson theology to me. 
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/14/2003 7:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Oh, there's something strange...in the neighborhood.
Who ya gonna call?
Demon Busters!
From all the examples I have heard of situations where demons were at work, it didn't concern trite mishaps and it was apparent something was seriously wrong to nearly everyone.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybdfryr
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybdfryr
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
Johnny Stecchenino. | | Back to Top | | |
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Terry_Baxter
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 7/14/2003 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Don't want to hijack the thread (good topic Eli). Just wanted to say Hi to Empiress. Come 'round more often. I miss you.
TB
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Eli
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 7/14/2003 4:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Humm.... all good stuff  (except of course for Terry's post... you think I can't see through this?! HUH?! AH hmmm.... much love )
Keep 'em coming
"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/18/2003 2:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
From out here in left field, my Father looks masculine. - Me | | Back to Top | | |
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Eli
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 7/18/2003 5:21 PM (GMT -6) | |
Just because our primary battle (at least the one we are called to fight) is with the spiritual, that doesn't mean that every battle we face is spiritual in origin. It's like the soldier locked in a warzone in the middle of a jungle. The battle he's called to fight is with his enemy, but if he is confronted with a venemous snake, panther, etc., he is to deal with each appropriately.
"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/19/2003 2:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Loins girt about with truth, the breastplate of righteousness; feet shod with the gospel of peace; above all, the shield of faith, to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked little demons. The helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching with all perseverance and supplication for all saints, that we may be able to stand against the beguiling playful tricks of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood on this battlefield, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
That does not mean that every battle we face is spiritual in origin  ?
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Eli
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 7/19/2003 4:50 AM (GMT -6) | | So... what do you believe, Tim? Is there chemical causes for things? Or is everything you encounter spiritual? (I want to stress there's no sarcasm here, I'm actually curious).
"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/20/2003 2:07 AM (GMT -6) | | 2Cr 10:3For though we walk in the flesh or chemicals, we do not war after the chemicals:
Gal 2:20I am crucified or died with Christ: nevertheless I am biologically alive; yet not I, but Christ Spirit lives within the real me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me (the shield).
2Ti 4:7I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
Above all, hold on to the shield of faith in God, to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked little demons, who attack the soul, which is the mind, will, and intellect of each of us.
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Eli
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 7/21/2003 2:18 PM (GMT -6) | | So do you believe in evil people or is all the evil in this world a result of devils manipulating people?
"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis
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Laplace
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 7/24/2003 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Yes, interesting thread indeed.
Question at hand: "How much sin/evil should we attribute to demons, how much to ourselves as humans, and how much to God?"
My brief view:
God gave the angels in Heaven a choice to choose God or reject Him. Lucifer as well as a number of others chose the latter. As a result, they seem bent on doing nothing but dragging as many souls as they can with them and foiling God's plans as much as possible.
In the Garden of Eden, there was a choice. That wrong choice was prompted by a demon (Satan). Choice was made, and all of mankind was corrupted with a sin nature.
So, when there is evil, is there always an active demon behind it? No, I don't believe so. The Bible makes it clear there is a difference between demon possession and simply doing something a demon likes. Humans cannot blame all their actions on demons. But I also believe that demons do everything they can affecting circumstances to make people sin (Job). I also believe to some extent there is that cartoonish "angel/devil" on our shoulders whispering things to us.
Therefore, would Adam and Eve fallen if there were no demons? I don't know. Doesn't matter much now. I don't believe we can attribute everything to demonic activity all the time (our moods, natural disasters, etc.), but keep in mind that demons have "dominion over this world" (what God allows them) and they love to take advantage of our weaknesses brought upon by our inherent sin nature. They are active in this world, and the Bible does speak of a real spiritual war out there.
We should not focus our attention on vanquishing demons (something only God has the power to do), but rather filling ourselves with God and letting Him fight the unseen battles.
"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/24/2003 4:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Thank you and amen Laplace . . .
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Blood Washed Heretic
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 167
| Posted 7/25/2003 5:33 AM (GMT -6) | | My main concern in this whole deal is the sermon "discussion". That sounds awful subjective to me. Believe it or not, the words of Scripture have definite objective meaning that require dilligent study of the passage's background, cultural setting, intended audience, original language, gammar, syntax, etc., not to mention CONTEXT. If a "pastor" (male or female) is passing their text around asking, "what does this mean to YOU?", instead of preaching the message God's given them through prayer and study, then that person is NOT "correctly handling the Word of Truth" and is not feeding sheep.
Now, I do not believe that this should be he pastor's job alone (though it usually is), but those who preach, teach, and/or have authority in a local church MUST uphold the fact that the Bible has inherent meaning, and that the message must be understood in terms of what the original audiences would have held to.
Speaking of spiritual matters, Satan's greatest lies that too many Christians believe are, "Jesus is MY PERSONAL Savior" and "The Bible is MY PERSONAL Life's Little Instruction Book". Not the case. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World, the Bridesgroom of the Church, and Lord of ALL Creation. His Word, as revealed in the collected works of the Bible, has a timeless message of redemption that MUST be interpreted in light of the specific audiences in specific cultures at specific times to which it was written.
OK, tangent over...
So in conclusion, if this lady was passing around (at least) an NIV, NASB, or Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, an IVP Bible Background Commentary, and information on how to properly study the Bible along with her mic and text, then I'm OK with it .
If not, then you were definitely right to feel uncomfortable, Eli.
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love.
Edited by - Blood Washed Heretic on 07/25/2003 10:35:37 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Laplace
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 7/25/2003 7:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Blood Washed Heretic,
Although not specifically addressing demons, you seem anxious over the idea of finding the "true meaning" behind Scripture, and that if not carefully studied, can lead to disaster.
I would agree to an extent with you on this. There is evidence of misuse of the Bible (Satan himself tried to do so). So yes, it is important to really dig deep into the Word and chew on some real meat.
The issue of authority and "true meaning" is nothing new. It's been around even since the times of the Bible itself (Eunuch in Acts). There have been regular councils meeting on what a certain passage meant (for example one in the early church discussion if Jesus' words about chopping off hands and gouging out eyes should be taken literally. It was decided that it was merely symbolic). The Reformation was the significant event in the tug-of-war in recent history. The Catholics said if the "Church people" had the authority to assemble the Canon of Scripture, are they not the most qualified to say what is "true"? On the flipside, Luther said it should be left alone to Scripture (Sola Scriptura) and to not let its meaning be so rigid since men are fallible, but God is not (again, one can talk about insipiration vs. infallible vs. inerrent, etc).
My belief is that if we truly believe that the Bible is God's Word and "sharper than a 2 edged sword cutting through to the heart" then why can't we trust God to use the words in the Bible alone at times without all the interpretation. There have been numerous documentations of people reading the Bible alone without any concordance or clergy and understand the plan of Salvation and accepting Christ. If taken in with the right heart, the Word itself has more than enough power.
This should not however negate the need for professional theologians and searching external possibilities outside the Bible. If more than anything, it should futher advance its uniqueness and strengthen people's faith in it.
Finally, addressing your tangent of PERSONAL Savior, I don't think it's an outright lie. Sure, Jesus is the Savior of all, but that doesn't mean that He is not MY Savior as well. You seem to be hung up over that since the word "personal" isn't in the Bible, it is heresy to use it (btw, "Trinity" isn't in the Bible either yet...). We all are part of the "the world" and "God so loved (me) that He gave His one and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
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Blood Washed Heretic
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 167
| Posted 7/25/2003 9:09 AM (GMT -6) | | No, I'm not hung up on the truth of Jesus being someone's personal savior, I'm hung up on the way that trite little phrase has marginalized and isolated the faith, making Christians look rather selfish. Anyway, I definitely don't see it as "heresy". My screenname refers to the unfortunate tendency of opposing sides in theological debate to throw around that loaded word, so I avoid it at all costs. Saying "Jesus is MY PERSONAL Savior" isn't heretical, it's just redundant at best. And it just bothers me, OK?
On the issue of Scripture's meaning, I don't think we differ in opinion significantly, so I won't bother to make any comments now.
Thanks for the discussion!
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love.
Edited by - Blood Washed Heretic on 07/25/2003 2:10:40 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 7/26/2003 6:50 AM (GMT -6) | | I thinks, I likes, that blooming' - Blood Washed Heretic -, so far .
From out here in left field, my Father looks masculine. - Me | | Back to Top | | |
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Eli
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 7/27/2003 6:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Finally, addressing your tangent of PERSONAL Savior, I don't think it's an outright lie. Sure, Jesus is the Savior of all, but that doesn't mean that He is not MY Savior as well. You seem to be hung up over that since the word "personal" isn't in the Bible, it is heresy to use it (btw, "Trinity" isn't in the Bible either yet...). We all are part of the "the world" and "God so loved (me) that He gave His one and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
I haven't logged on in a few days (computer crashed...) so I don't have anything really worth reading and I'm too tired to try :). But I saw the "yet" here and had to ask, is there plans to insert the word "Trinity" in the Bible?
Thanks again, you guys have been incredibly helpful (and confusing  ).
"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis
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Laplace
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 7/28/2003 12:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Eli,
The word "yet" refers to the meaning of contrast rather than of eventuality.
The point was that although the word "Trinity" does not appear anywhere in the Bible, the idea behind it (Three in One) is clear and well-established enough in the Bible to correctly use the word even though the word itself is not in there.
I don't advocate including the word in there since it isn't in any of the manuscripts. It's simply a term we use to describe a particular doctrine. That's all.
"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment | | Back to Top | | |
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