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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > War—what is it good for? | Forum Quick Jump
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|  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 3/18/2003 9:54 PM (GMT -6) |   | See men shredded, then say you don't back war http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3284-614607,00.html Found at: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ BY ANN CLWYD
“There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders.”
This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict — the organisation I chair — to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.
Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: “Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation.”
The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.
For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam’s Iraq.
Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq — which some people still claim are illegal — the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.
For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.
Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?
All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.
I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
 |  fyodor Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 179 | Posted 3/19/2003 2:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | I guess there's always rhetoric on both sides....
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 3/19/2003 9:41 AM (GMT -6) |   | Please Fyodor, explain in more detail.
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
 |  honorman Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 1137 | Posted 3/19/2003 9:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | Everything is rhetoric to those who don't want to accept the truth of the situation...
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 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 3/19/2003 11:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | Honorman, a great quote from today’s George Will article from the Miami Herald: “The Vietnam antiwar movement began to burgeon in 1965. It reached its apogee in 1972 with the capture of the Democratic Party and the nomination of the movement's choice for president. When that nominee, George McGovern, lost 49 states, the movement, with the imperviousness to evidence that fanaticism confers, was unshaken in its belief that it was the moral majority. That derangement is now being reprised in the likes of Tom Daschle.” Another good article is from the Wall Street journal, entitled, “Democrats against Democracy:” http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003218
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/cRosett/?id=110003216
(You are right about the rhetoric Fyodor spoke of.)
During the day I flip between two radio hosts that are on from 3 to 7 pm, one is Larry Elder, the other being Hugh Hewitt (Hewitt being a conservative evangelical). Hugh has two articles out today, one short one he did I suggest reading: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/381iiuah.asp
Much Thought Honorman.
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne
Edited by - SeanG on 03/19/2003 4:31:16 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Electra Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002 Total Posts : 611 | Posted 3/19/2003 7:49 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote: there's plenty of non-violent resistance to do right here in Minneapolis.
For the theologically inclined, check out the group Integrating Non-Violence into Theological Education (INViTE), run by Luther Seminary students. This week they are sponsoring free seminars by faculty (such as Charles Amjad-Ali) with expertise in Isalmic and Christian relations and/or peace activism, and helping to coordinate churches’ response to our invasion of Iraq. Electra
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky | | Back to Top | | |
 |  honorman Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 1137 | Posted 3/20/2003 9:43 AM (GMT -6) |   | So I guess all you guys will be laying down your lives for someone in downtown Minn. Keeping me posted, okay
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 |  following Registered Member
 Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 24 | Posted 3/21/2003 4:44 AM (GMT -6) |   | wow. i really enjoyed reading through this thread. this is an amazingly difficult topic with a wide range of ideas. here's my struggle.... When jesus is preaching in the beautitudes he is clarifying the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. i'm sure none of us would disagree with the fact that when jesus is teaching about thou shalt not kill, he also teaches that to have hatred in your heart towards someone, bitterness, to feel unpleasant, resentment towards a person without cause is murder. anger in the heart towards any human being, and especially to those who belong to the household of faith,is, according to our lord, something that is as reprehensible in the sight of god as murder. but that is not all. not only must we not feel this causeless anger; we must never even be guilty of expressions of contempt. 'whosoever shall say to his brother, raca, shall be in danger of the council' (raca means worthless fellow or fool) it is an attitude of contempt, that tendency which we are all aware of withour our hearts and spirits. i'm sure we have all nursed thoughts against people which are as foul as murder. there are ways that men can be destroyed short of murder. we can destroy a man's reputation, we can shake somebody else's confidence in him by whispering criticism or by deliberate fault finding. that is the kind of thing which our lord is indicating and his whole purpose is to show that all that is included in this commandment: thou shalt not kill; killing does not only mean destroying life physically, it means still more trying to destroy the spirit and the soul, destroying the person in any shape or form. the only reason i bring this up is because i think it is important to examine ourselves in this area. i have never committed murder. its easy for me to claim that, stand on that, and to say i have obeyed "the law". but dang, god calls us to so much more. if we are talking about war and killing, and the bible and god and love, then lets take a minute to examine ourselves and see have we obeyed the teaching that jesus gave. have we really kept this commandment? who have you murdered recently? i thnk i may have murdered my mom the other day. we must actually take steps to remove the cause of the trouble; we must aim at apositive goal. we have to reach the stage in which there shall be nothing wrong even in spirit between our brother and ourselves.
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 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 3/21/2003 1:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | Honorman, a new video has come out ----
http://www.brain-terminal.com/video/sf-2003-03-15/index.html
Also, check out this site, I heard this kid on Rush today. He had about twenty people this last time around and made huge signs that look almost like anti-war signs. He then mingles into the anti-war group, and, well, you know how a bunch of people who are gathered in the belief that free speech is the hallmark of our country… yup, you guessed it, they try to shut him up. Check it out; I will post some of his signs here.
http://protestwarrior.com/








SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne
Edited by - SeanG on 03/21/2003 8:45:28 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 3/21/2003 3:17 PM (GMT -6) |   | Found more…





SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 3/21/2003 3:44 PM (GMT -6) |   | Honorman,
The last picture, the one with the Palestinian mother of a suicide bomber, the tiny writing underneath reads, “and $25,000 from Saddam”
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
 |  honorman Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 1137 | Posted 3/21/2003 10:27 PM (GMT -6) |   | Sean G: I heard him on Hannity's radio as he talked about being in SAn Francisco at one of the protests where they were (get this) vomiting against the war. Yep, those true believers in free speechs were trying to shut him up until the press got hold of it by encircling him. Got to love them...
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 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 3/23/2003 4:56 PM (GMT -6) |   | Someone asked a conservative talk show host why the “pro-war” movement hasn’t got the same press as the anti-war movement… they responded that, “if they [the conservatives] defecated on the street, they would get fair coverage.” Ouch!!
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne
Edited by - SeanG on 03/23/2003 9:59:18 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Terry_Baxter Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2002 Total Posts : 187 | Posted 3/24/2003 10:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hope I'm not running afoul of copyright restrictions, but I think this falls under fair use and I found it compelling enough to post here. Mods, please delete if you feel this isn't true.
From the Wall Street Journal's "Best of the Web" column today:
"And another Guardian report, from Baghdad, notes that civilians have been largely untouched the shocking and awesome bombardment of the Iraqi capital: "So long as the rest of Baghdad remains almost unscathed, ordinary Iraqis appear relatively buoyant, as they reach for the possibility that maybe this war will be less punishing than they had feared."
Meanwhile, some of those "human shields" came to their senses after arriving in Iraq. United Press International has one such report:
A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."
The Telegraph has a first-person account from one Daniel Pepper, an American resident of London, who says he "was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam":
I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad--a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel late at night. I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, "Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good." He looked at me with an expression of incredulity.
As he realised I was serious, he slowed down and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime. Until then I had only heard the President spoken of with respect, but now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq's oil money went into Saddam's pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family.
It scared the hell out of me. First I was thinking that maybe it was the secret police trying to trick me but later I got the impression that he wanted me to help him escape. I felt so bad. I told him: "Listen, I am just a schmuck from the United States, I am not with the UN, I'm not with the CIA--I just can't help you.""
More grist for the mill.
Now back to the regularly scheduled bout of arguing past each other.

Terry "Be God's"
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 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 3/25/2003 7:03 AM (GMT -6) |   | Reality Stuns 'Human Shield': 'Saddam Was a Monster' Some of the appeasement activists who went to Iraq as "human shields" got shocked into common sense when reality dashed their passivist fantasies.
Arnaud de Borchgrave, UPI's Editor at Large and a member of NewsMax's board of directors, wrote Friday from Jordan:A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present.
Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality."
Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists."
"Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head." Susan Sarandon, Michael Moore, Adrien Brody, Chris Cooper and Barbra Streisand, are you listening?
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 |  might-be-don Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 830 | Posted 3/25/2003 8:19 AM (GMT -6) |   | Ran across this quote and thought it was interesting...
"During the Reformation, the only thing that Reformers and Catholics could seemingly agree on was that they both hated the anabaptists; Reformers killed Catholics, Catholics killed Reformers, but everyone killed the Anabaptists. Who did the Anabaptists kill? No one - Anabaptists are pacifists."
Lamenting an Anti-Pacifist Church Written by Alan Hartung
peace and love, don
--- "No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SeanG Registered Member
 Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 278 | Posted 3/26/2003 5:46 PM (GMT -6) |   | The Irony of Virtue: Ethics and American Power, by Ernest W. Lefever, foreword by William F. Buckley Jr. FROM youthful Christian pacifism during World War II through a gradual awakening to a prudential ``humane'' realism as he toured the devastated Old World in the war's aftermath, Ernest W. Lefever has struggled to understand Christian conviction and the nature of politics. As his experience deepened, Lefever grasped the ``irony of virtue'': that good intentions in political life, if they ignore the consequences of action, can easily lead to ruin. The statesman confronting the tumult of the life of nations, Lefever came to see, must often make decisions that will haunt him all the rest of his life; yet those decisions may well be morally right. Lefever's sensitivity to such moral complexity is amply displayed in these forty essays -- drawn from a lifetime of engagement -- on nuclear weapons, the evils of secular religion, the problems of the Third World, and America as freedom's best defense in a dangerous world. Has anyone read this book???
Who is pro-war? Thomas Sowell - March 25, 2003
quote:
We have heard a lot about anti-war demonstrators. Indeed, we have heard a lot from anti-war spokesmen, as the media continue their corrupt practice of providing free air time to those whose antics provide them with footage for their news broadcasts. But what about those who are pro-war?
Who said, "At last the war has begun"? Certainly no one in the Bush administration, nor in the military, nor anyone among the conservative or neo-conservative publications supporting the president's military actions. That headline appeared in bold letters across the front page of a newspaper in Kuwait.
Kuwaitis are not the only victims of Saddam Hussein who have been wanting this war to get underway, so that they can be rid of that murderous threat hanging over their heads. Arnaud de Borchgrave of United Press International reports that a group of American anti-war demonstrators who had gone to Iraq were shocked to encounter Iraqi civilians who were pro-war.
A young American clergyman with an anti-war group in Iraq said that some of the things the Iraqis said to him "had shocked me back to reality." Some of these Iraqis "told me that they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start." Then they told him of sadistic tortures "that made me ill" just to hear about.
Too many Americans have been too sheltered for too long to have any conception of what it is like to live under horrifying threats. The bargain-basement martyrs of the "peace" movement who disrupt their fellow Americans' lives with their moral exhibitionism in the streets know that the worst that will happen to them is wrist-slap punishment -- and that most will not get even that.
The blessings we have in this country have been so taken for granted for so long by such people -- and by many in the media and in academia -- that they have no sense of what past sacrifices created these blessings, what present-day sacrifices are necessary to sustain them, much less what are the prerequisites for continuing to live as a free people.
More than ingratitude is involved. Those who do not understand what an on-going price has to be paid continuously to remain free are not only quick to balk at any costs that they have to pay or any restrictions they have to endure, they are also quick to attribute cheap motives to those who have the responsibility to make the hard decisions required to protect us from the dangers that the blind refuse to acknowledge.
Some of these who blindly lash out at America say that the real reason American troops are going into Iraq is to get control of that country's oil. Do they realize that we had control of Kuwait's oil during the previous Gulf war -- and gave it back to the Kuwaitis? Do facts matter at all to those who are on a binge of self-righteousness?
Does it matter to them that we live in an age where "giving peace a chance" means
giving people like Saddam Hussein time to develop nuclear weapons? Does it matter to them that the doctrine of "pre-emption" is not just an abstract issue but, in a nuclear age, can be the difference between life and death for millions of Americans?
Surely the time is long overdue to understand that Israel did an enormous favor to the world when its bombers made a pre-emptive strike against Saddam Hussein's nuclear facility -- built by France, by the way. Can you imagine where we would be today if Saddam Hussein had been given two decades in which to develop nuclear weapons?
Sheltered people with no sense of the enormous new dangers that the proliferation of nuclear weapons have created still talk in terms of old shibboleths and discuss issues in the abstract, instead of in terms of the concrete and bitter realities confronted by those with responsibility for the fate of this country.
Since we have nuclear weapons, those who think in the abstract ask, why don't others have a right to have them? It never seems to occur to them that, in the real world as it exists, we are not worried because Britain or Israel have nuclear weapons. But anyone with a brain in his head should be worried that North Korea has them and that Saddam Hussein has been trying to get them.

Edited by - SeanG on 03/26/2003 10:47:32 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Observer Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 4 | Posted 4/1/2003 2:38 PM (GMT -6) |   | Dear Sean G!
Your posts are always so very angry. Why?
I hope you find peace.
Sincerely,
This Observer
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 |  honorman Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 1137 | Posted 4/1/2003 5:39 PM (GMT -6) |   | Observer: evil doesn't make you angry? Injustice doesn't make you angry? Try the Old Testament. It certainly makes God angry...
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