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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 2/11/2003 2:57 PM (GMT -6) |   | How are you all coping with the various doomsday scenarios in the news lately—e.g. war with Iraq, code orange terror alerts, Valentines from Osama Bin Laden, and last but not least, weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass destruction, did I mention weapons of mass destruction? Oh, I almost forgot nuclear arsenals, dirty bombs, and human shields. How about three trillion dollar deficit and massive troop buildup? And of course, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction.
I must admit, it’s starting to get to me.
Electra
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8
Edited by - Electra on 02/11/2003 7:59:54 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/11/2003 4:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey, let me tell you all something. When I got the flu, and it's really bad, we're talking defcom 5: get outta my way, I'm going to hug the porcelin God and then follow through from the other side!
You want war, just be there the next time I'm worshiping at the bowl! You'll get war! Saddam ain't seen nothing of the likes of chemical warfare I can come up with!
The Starkman
(Code Orange. Pshaw! If I could bottle what comes outta me when I'm sick, there wouldn't be a color pretty enough to describe it or a country far enough away, were I to get a little upset, you see!)
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 2/11/2003 4:51 PM (GMT -6) | | I’ll be first in line for that vaccine! Electra
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8 | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 2/11/2003 5:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
How are you all coping with the various doomsday scenarios in the news lately—e.g. war with Iraq, code orange terror alerts, Valentines from Osama Bin Laden, and last but not least, weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass destruction, did I mention weapons of mass destruction? Oh, I almost forgot nuclear arsenals, dirty bombs, and human shields. How about three trillion dollar deficit and massive troop buildup? And of course, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction.
Yeah, how much would it suck to be an existentialist? 
Hang in there, Electra! It is said that Patton once told his troops: "All men are frightened. The more intelligent they are, the more they are frightened. The courageous man is the man who forces himself, in spite of his fear, to carry on." I've always liked that quote for its honesty as well as its challenge.
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 2/11/2003 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | | I am actually coping rather well. Even if a weapon of mass destruction were used, the chances are small that most people would be the one to die. What most people do not realize is any nuclear used by a terrorist would be of a lower caliber and we would survive. Fear Less is a good book to read on the subject. The author is a terrorism expert and he puts it in practical terms as to what to expect in every "worse" case scenrio. Better to be informed than to cower in fear.
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Springs
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 2/11/2003 6:18 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm not sure we have to worry about nukes when they can bomb our federal buildings and put our economy into the dumpster.
Thy love did read by rote and could not spell. - Friar Laurence. - Shakespeare | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 2/12/2003 2:28 AM (GMT -6) | | well, this morning I watched the news for the first time in a long time. After about 30 min, I turned it off and prayed: OHHHH MARANATHA!
Wow, what a wild world we live in.
when adults are just hangin in there one must wonder about the children...
leaving the TV off,
peace and love,
selah
Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev. 22:1
Edited by - Selah on 02/12/2003 09:55:54 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 2/12/2003 2:46 AM (GMT -6) | | I don't really feel threatened by bombs, nukes, weapons for the masses. I'm going home sooner or later.
I'm having a harder time coping with the "Don't mess with Texas" attitude of our empire.
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 2/12/2003 4:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I'm having a harder time coping with the "Don't mess with Texas" attitude of our empire.
Nothing personal, but I'm glad you're not in charge of our national security.
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
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graygirl
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 2/12/2003 4:42 AM (GMT -6) | | electra you should go see the movie "bowling for columbine"
the film brings us some interesting thought on the culture of fear in which we live.....one of my favorite scenes is when Bush is giving a "blanket alert" based on a "general threat"
i hear ya though...sooner or later we all have to confront the media blitz/frenzy. i have been encouraged, though, to see other nations taking prudent, cautious approach to the whole thing.
GG
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 2/12/2003 4:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for the encouragement. I should clarify though. The incessant war-mongering is not scaring me—although I am a little afraid for some of my neighbors, because economic recession hurts the poor the most; and I am a little afraid for friends and family in the military; and I am afraid for the Iraqi people. Desperately poor people are tempted to do desperate things. The enemy loves to prey on us when we’re vulnerable and weak. But in Christ, we can be strongest when we are weakest.
So fear is not something I struggle with. Anger is. I am not a pacifist, but I oppose this war.
Electra
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8 | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 2/12/2003 5:03 AM (GMT -6) | | GG: electra you should go see the movie "bowling for columbine"
the film brings us some interesting thought on the culture of fear in which we live.....one of my favorite scenes is when Bush is giving a "blanket alert" based on a "general threat"
Electra: Ha ha! I’ll definitely check that out.
GG: i hear ya though...sooner or later we all have to confront the media blitz/frenzy. i have been encouraged, though, to see other nations taking prudent, cautious approach to the whole thing.
Electra: Agreed.
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8 | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 2/12/2003 5:18 AM (GMT -6) | | BJS: Nothing personal, but I'm glad you're not in charge of our national security.
Fyodor: I bet. We wouldn't have any...hehehe
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 2/12/2003 5:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
i have been encouraged, though, to see other nations taking prudent, cautious approach to the whole thing.
I really think this is a bit unfair. No one believes that the Saddam situation doesn't need to be addressed. Just because the US, Britain, and their allies believe that the situation requires a stronger and more forceful approach does not automatically mean that they are less prudent or cautious. In fact, we may realize later that this approach was indeed the more prudent and cautious one.
I agree that the decision about whether to take military action is a tough call, but I think it is immensely unfair to dismiss what we are doing by simplistically attributing it to a supposed "don't mess with Texas" attitude on the part of Bush. Clearly, there is a substantial group of non-Texan world leaders in favor of military action at this point.
Brett
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BJS
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 2/12/2003 5:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
BJS: Nothing personal, but I'm glad you're not in charge of our national security.
Fyodor: I bet. We wouldn't have any...hehehe
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard
Brett
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 2/12/2003 5:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Brett: I really think this is a bit unfair. No one believes that the Saddam situation doesn't need to be addressed. Just because the US, Britain, and their allies believe that the situation requires a stronger and more forceful approach does not automatically mean that they are less prudent or cautious. In fact, we may realize later that this approach was indeed the more prudent and cautious one.
Electra: It is possible that one day going to war with Iraq will retrospectively prove to have been the right decision, but I don’t believe it will ever prove to have been a “prudent and cautious” decision. Inciting war in the Mideast is a risky, aggressive move, no matter how it is spun. The question is whether war that would risk splitting NATO, risk further provoking other Muslim nations, risk further straining our weak economy, and risk the lives of American and Iraqi soldiers is the best way to address “the Sadam situation”? Do the weapons of mass destruction Iraq may or may not have really pose a great enough threat to warrant a preemptive strike that would risk so much?
Electra
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8
Edited by - Electra on 02/12/2003 10:43:15 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 2/12/2003 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Electra: quote:
It is possible that one day going to war with Iraq will retrospectively prove to have been the right decision, but I don’t believe it will ever prove to have been a “prudent and cautious” decision.
I'm not sure what this means. How can a decision be right, but not prudent?
Electra: quote:
Inciting war in the Mideast is a risky, aggressive move, no matter how it is spun. The question is whether war that would risk splitting NATO, risk further provoking other Muslim nations, risk further straining our weak economy, and risk the lives of American and Iraqi soldiers is the best way to address “the Sadam situation”? Do the weapons of mass destruction Iraq may or may not have really pose a great enough threat to warrant a preemptive strike that would risk so much?
Along with a substantial group of world leaders (including Tony Blair of Great Britain, where his position is very unpopular), I think a legitimate answer to that question is "yes."
Brett
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 2/12/2003 6:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Risk splitting NATO? We spend more money in NATO than all the other nations combined AND 16 of the 19 nations in NATO fully agree with us. It is Germany, France and Belgum who are splitting NATO, not us.
Most Muslum nations are behind the action and tired of the situation. Just because a nation is Muslum does not mean they automatically behind other Muslims.
Finally, war, by and large is good for the economy. But thats another story...
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 2/12/2003 6:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Did want to add a couple of other general points. In Fear Less By Gavin De Becker makes some excellant points.
TV news is always based on sensationalism, never on real news. First thing I did after 9/11 was stop watching it. Helped immensely.
Remember there are also many good people in the world, who love others.
Watch SpongeBob Squarepants or something else really funny. It shows how wonderful the world is.
On the subject of nuclear weapons. It is very hard to get one, it is much harder to deliver it where you want. While several countries have them, only a very few have the technology to deliver them beyond their immediate area, something the news never talks about. Also, anathrax. Did you know that it is also called the sheep herder's disease and those who shear sheep are exposed to it all the time? It is, in reality very hard to get and harder to die from.
The list goes on...TV news is sensational and fun to look at but not very informative or even true when it really counts...
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 2/12/2003 8:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Have to agree on the sensationalism aspect of the news with Honorman. Barry Glassner's "Culture of Fear" is a great book that addresses some more of that subject matter.
Been thinking more about the idea of war and the notion that war can be justified. Can't seem to reconcile that one. Where did it say "Thou shall not kill except when a nation harbors the desire for weapons of mass destruction or has a control freak for a president. Maybe this should be a different topic, but seriously, can human, earthly war be justified? Anxious to hear some perspectives...you may guess that I have a few of my own....
Matthew 5:21-26
quote:
"You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, 'You shall not murder'; and 'whoever murders shall be liable to judgement.' But i say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgement; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, "You fool,' you will be liable to the Gehenna of fire. So when you are offering your gift at the altar, if you remember that your brother or sister has something against yo, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother or sister, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into the prison. Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
Since when did we make a distinction between murder and a preemptive strike. Seriously, we are fooling ourselves to think that as Christians there can be some sort of "just war." It doesn't exist. When are Christians going to stand up and come out in opposition of killing in this fashion. There can be no reason to kill anyone if you follow the central commandments to love God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul, and to love your neighbor as yourselves. As Kierkegaard said in Works of Love, "Loving oneself in the right way and loving one's neighbor are one in the same."
There is only one love that loves to death and that is the love of God, the love that teaches us to die that we may experience love as a new creation. We are emphatically breaking the two commandments that Jesus explicitly claimed were the greatest commandments when we seek to justify killing. Somebody show me scriptural justification for war in a post crucifixion world. Please, I'm dying to know why I shouldn't head to France.
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard
Edited by - fyodor on 02/13/2003 07:33:25 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 2/13/2003 3:32 AM (GMT -6) | | fyodor,
It's appears as long as people have "stuff", they will defend their right to defend it. We don't "lay up treasures in heaven" so it becomes necessary that we be quite sure no one takes the stuff we have here away from us. The things we "possess" might include cars, tv, houses, land, and in many cases, people.
Fear Him.
peace and love, don
---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 2/13/2003 3:34 AM (GMT -6) | | fyodor,
It's appears as long as people have "stuff", they will defend their right to defend it. We don't "lay up treasures in heaven" so it becomes necessary that we be quite sure no one takes the stuff we have here away from us. The things we "possess" might include cars, tv, houses, land, and in many cases, people.
Fear Him.
peace and love, don
---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 2/13/2003 5:11 AM (GMT -6) | | fyodor wrote:quote:
There can be no reason to kill anyone if you follow the central commandments to love God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul, and to love your neighbor as yourselves.
I always ask people who claim to be pacifists whether they would kill someone who was attempting to rape and murder their child. If they say no, they are consistent, but in my mind, foolish.
What it comes down to for me is this: How can we truly love others if we don't do what we can to physically protect them? The just war doctrine is an extension of this principle. In fact, Aquinas discussed the doctrine in Summa Theologica's section on charity. As Christian scholar Darrell Cole writes, "The Christian who fails to use force to aid his neighbor when prudence dictates that force is the best way to render that aid is an uncharitable Christian."
I share in the ideal of pacifism, but I choose to confront the reality that in a broken world, I must sometimes fight to protect the innocent from evil. [By the way, whether this justification applies to the Iraq situation is another question entirely.]
Brett
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graygirl
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 2/13/2003 3:17 PM (GMT -6) | | a friend sent me the email below
**********************************************************************
Subject: Kill an American? A must-read
You probably missed it in the rush of news last week, but there was actually a report that someone in Pakistan had published in a newspaper an offer of a reward to anyone who killed an American, any American.
So an Australian dentist wrote the following to let everyone know what an American is, so they would know when they found one:
An American is English, or French, or Italian, Irish, German, Spanish, Polish, Russian or Greek. An American may also be Canadian, Mexican, African, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Australian, Iranian, Asian, or Arab, or Pakistani, or Afghan. An American may also be a Cherokee, Osage, Blackfoot, Navaho, Apache, Seminole or one of the many other tribes known as native Americans.
An American is Christian, or he could be Jewish, or Buddhist, or Muslim. In fact, there are more Muslims in America than in Afghanistan. The only difference is that in America they are free to worship as each of them chooses. An American is also free to believe in no religion. For that he will answer only to God, not to the government, or to armed thugs claiming to speak for the government and for God.
An American is from the most prosperous land in the history of the world.
The root of that prosperity can be found in the Declaration of Independence, which recognizes the God given right of each person the pursuit of happiness.
An American is generous. Americans have helped out just about every other nation in the world in their time of need. When Afghanistan was overrun by the Soviet army 20 years ago, Americans came with arms and supplies to enable the people to win back their country. As of the morning of September 11, 2001 Americans had given more than any other nation to the poor in Afghanistan.
Americans welcome the best, the best products, the best books, the best music, the best food, the best athletes. But they also welcome the least.
The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty, welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest tossed. These in fact are the people who built America.. Some of them were working in the Twin Towers the morning of September 11, 2001 earning a better life for their families. I've been told that the World Trade Center victims were from at least 30 other countries, cultures, and first languages, including those that aided and abetted the terrorists.
So you can try to kill an American if you must. Hitler did. So did General Tojo, and Stalin, and Mao Tse-Tung, and every bloodthirsty tyrant in the history of the world. But, in doing so you would just be killing yourself. Because Americans are not a particular people from a particular place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit of freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an American.
Pass this around the World
**********************************************************************
now why would the world be so angry at a nation so....well right and nice?? thoughts?
GG
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 2/13/2003 6:15 PM (GMT -6) | | BJS: How can we truly love others if we don't do what we can to physically protect them?
Fyodor: In the end, all things, including our bodies will fall to the fact that they are only temporal. Nothing but the spirit moves on. In saying this I have to say that I'd rather lay down and die than kill another. Killing is sinful. I don't think it can be justified. Like all sins, it is a sin that has already been paid for. It is also possible to use considerable force without the neccessity to take lives.
War is an abomination of politics, it rarely has anything to do with defending people. One can think of a handful of nations under severe distress and even genocide in recent years, while the government chose not to do anything, not to come to the rescue, not unless our "interests" were there. Rwanda was a bloodbath, but we didn't make a move to protect those people. Nothing doin' in Iraq yet we're willing to assasinate, detonate, and "liberate" as the good. We're willing to cut short peaceful and diplomatic means of conflict resolution in Iraq, and for what? I don't buy it. War seems unjustifiable to me.
†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard
Edited by - fyodor on 02/13/2003 11:15:40 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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