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following
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 3/21/2003 5:34 AM (GMT -6) |   | why are peacemakers blessed? the answer is because they are absolutely unlike everybody else. The peacemakers are blessed because they are the people who stand out as being different from the rest of the world, and they are different because they are the children of god. the explanation for all our troubles is ultimately sin. the heart of man is evil. human lust, greed, selfishness, self-centredness; it is the cause of all the trouble and the discord, whether between individuals, groups, or between nations. i don't know if you can understand the problem of the modern world unless you are willing to accept the n.t. doctrine of man and sin. before you can solve any problem you must have the right definiton of what the problem is. the trouble according to scripture is, the heart of man., and until the heart of man is chagned, you will never solve this problem of unrest in the world by trying to make manipulations on the surface. go to the source. non of these things can possibly work while man remains the same, remains what he is. nothing but a new heart will solve this problem. "out of the heart" is where evil thoughts, murders, adultry, fornication, jealousy,envy, malice and all these other things proceed; and while men are like that there will be no peace. what is inside will inevitably come out. it is only as we see the modern world in proper perspective thruogh these n.t. eyes what we shall begin to understand it. are we really suprised taht there are wars? the great need of our world is a large number of peacemakers. what then is a peacemaker? its not a natural disposition. someboyd who is an appeaser, or nice, or avoids conflict, 'peace at any price' is not true of this type of person. these easygoing, peace at any price people are often lacking in a sense of justice or righteousness; they do not stand where they should stand. a true peacemaker is not an appeaser. you can postpone war by appeasement. the mere avoidance of war does not make peace, it does not solve the problem. a peacemaker seeks peace actively and is not quarrelsome. he is not content to let 'sleeping dogs lie'. he desieres peace and he does all he can to produce peace and to maintain it. he is aman who actively sees that there should be peace between man and man, group and grupo, nation and nation. he is considered with the fact that all men should have peace with god. one who does not only make trouble, but who goes out of his way to produce peace. it involves a new heart, a pure heart. the heart must be cleansed before becoming a peacemaker. you must have a new view of your self. to be delivered from self-interest, self concern and self as a whole. you must forget your self, because as long as you are thinking of yourself and shielding yourself, you cannot be doing the work properly. the peacemaker is a person who is not always looking at everything in terms of the effect is has upon himself. we tend to look at everything as to how does it affect us? what is the reaction upon me? what is this giong to mean to me? and the moment we think like taht there is necessity for war, because everybody is doing the same thing. a self centered view can be troublesome. is this fair to me? am i having my rights and dues? a peacemaker has seen himself "and has come to see that in a sense this miserable, wretched self is not worth bothering about at all. it is so wretched; it has no rights or privileges; it does not deserve anything. if you have seen yourself as poor in spirit, if you have mourned because of the blackness of your heart, if you have truly seen yourself and have hungered and thirsted for righteousness, you will not stand any longer on your rights and privileges, you will not be asking 'what about me in this'?". you will have forgotten self. a new view of the world comes forth. the peacemaker has one concern, and it is the glory of god amongst men. he is a man ready to humble himself, and he is ready to do anythign that the glory of god may be promoted. thats theory, what about practice? maybe it means learning not to speak? to control our tongues. swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. you feel like saying thinsg, and you do not. it is never good to say unkind, unpleasant things. you can organize for peace, you can organize for war, but stop all the talking. control our tongues and lips. one of the first things in making peace is to know when not to speak. look at things through the light of the gospel. in the context of the gospel. take it outside the personal sense, and move it into god's. diffuse peace wherever you are. we can do this by being selfless, lovable, approachable, and not by standing on our dignity. if we do not think of self at all, people will feel, ' i can approach that person, i know i shall get sympathy and understanding, i know i shall get an outlook which is based on the new testament. let us be such people, that all will come to us. blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of god. to be 'owned' by god. god owns us. a peacemaker is a child of god and is like his father. the god of peace that brought again from the dead our lord jesus (heb. 13:20) why did the son of god come into this world? because god, though he is holy and righteouss and absolute in his qualities is a god of peace. that is why he sent his son. where did war come from? from man,from sin, from satan. discord was brought into the world this way. but god has not stood on his dignity. he has come, he has done something. god has made peace. he has humbled himself in his son to produce it. that is why we are children of god. we must repeat what god has done. if god stood upon his rights and dignity, upon his person, every one of us, all of mankind would be in trouble. paul talks about having made peace through the blood of his cross in colossians. he gave himself that you and i might have peace with god, and we might have peace with one another. eph.2 "for he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law and its commandments and regulations. his purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace" "god did not cling to his rights; he did not hold on to the prerogative of deity and of eternity. he humbled himself; he came in the likeness of a man, he humbled himself even to the death of the cross. why? he was not thinking of himself at all. 'let his mind be in you, which also is in christ jesus' look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others'. you finish with self, and then you begin to follow jesus christ. you realize what he did for you in order that others might enjoy that blessed peace of god, and you begin to desire that everybody else whould have it. so, forgetting self, and humbling self, you follow in his steps, "who did not sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judge righteosuly; that is it, god gives us grace to see this blessed, glorious truth, and make us refelctions, reproducers of the prince of peace, and truly children of the god of peace.
Edited by - following on 03/21/2003 10:45:31 AM
Edited by - following on 03/21/2003 10:53:09 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 3/21/2003 5:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed"
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1 + 1 = 3 for large values of 1
Edited by - Laika on 03/21/2003 10:50:51 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
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Total Posts : 445
| Posted 3/22/2003 1:14 PM (GMT -6) | | SUBJECT: Blessed are the Peacemakers...
Greetings, Following:
I love your heart.
May God bless & protect you, brother.
(Or, sister!).
. . . 
<><
Edited by - Mayflower on 03/22/2003 6:20:51 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 3/23/2003 1:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Blessed are those who truly are peacemakers, who stand up and will fight for the peace of children who are being abusers by forcefully stopping the abuse. For those who stop the rapists (forcefully), who stop the murders (forcefully), who are willing to enforce the peace by putting their lives on the line...blessed are the true peacemakers...
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 3/23/2003 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Blessed are those who truly are peacemakers, who stand up and will fight for the peace of children who are being abusers by forcefully stopping the abuse. For those who stop the rapists (forcefully), who stop the murders (forcefully), who are willing to enforce the peace by putting their lives on the line...blessed are the true peacemakers...
Tell me honorman, how do you reconcile this vision of a peacemaker you have here with God? Where is God in all this? Why isn't God acting forcefully to stop these things? It seems to me your position simply begs the problem of evil.
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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following
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| Posted 3/24/2003 4:20 AM (GMT -6) | | honorman,
you said blessed are the "true" peacemakers in your last statement. what i'm wondering is how do you define "true", is it based on your own definitions of "true" or biblical definitions of "true"?
Edited by - following on 03/24/2003 09:22:08 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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| Posted 3/24/2003 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
Blessed are those who truly are peacemakers, who stand up and will fight for the peace of children who are being abusers by forcefully stopping the abuse. For those who stop the rapists (forcefully), who stop the murders (forcefully), who are willing to enforce the peace by putting their lives on the line...blessed are the true peacemakers...
Tell me honorman, how do you reconcile this vision of a peacemaker you have here with God? Where is God in all this? Why isn't God acting forcefully to stop these things? It seems to me your position simply begs the problem of evil.
"Why isn't God acting forcefully to stop these things?"
Indeed, if God won't lift a hand to help those being harmed,
why should we?
And if He won't evangelize the world, why should we?
In fact, why protest the war at all? If He won't stop U.S.
forces, why are you trying?
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 3/24/2003 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | It seems you misunderstand me. My point is simply that if coercive force were the means by which God accomplished things, we would all be victims of such force. Rather, God uses persuasion and the intense movement of God's Spirit to draw us toward higher ways. But God does stop short of coercive force. If we are to love as God loves, to be perfect as God is perfect, then we need to consider how we get things done and keep God as the prototype for that as well.
Is this more clear?
I maintain that if you concider coercion an acceptable method for change and imagine God agreeing with you in this conviction, you are begging the problem of evil. We do see God acting, but not by direct involvement with violence or overt coercion. We, then, as supposedly God-fearing people, should pay attention to the way God uses power, not just what "ends" we hope to acheive. If you have a rebuttal, I can only hope that it pertains to what I maintain, not something else.
Thanks.
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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Laika
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| Posted 3/24/2003 8:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
It seems you misunderstand me. My point is simply that if coercive force were the means by which God accomplished things, we would all be victims of such force. Rather, God uses persuasion and the intense movement of God's Spirit to draw us toward higher ways. But God does stop short of coercive force. If we are to love as God loves, to be perfect as God is perfect, then we need to consider how we get things done and keep God as the prototype for that as well.
Is this more clear?
Yep. Clear and I agree somewhat.
quote:
I maintain that if you concider coercion an acceptable method for change and imagine God agreeing with you in this conviction, you are begging the problem of evil. We do see God acting, but not by direct involvement with violence or overt coercion. We, then, as supposedly God-fearing people, should pay attention to the way God uses power, not just what "ends" we hope to acheive. If you have a rebuttal, I can only hope that it pertains to what I maintain, not something else.
I think coercion has it's place. Consider the police, for example.
God certainly used coercion, or strong persuasion, to free His people from Egypt.
1 + 1 = 3 for large values of 1
Edited by - Laika on 03/24/2003 1:57:05 PM
Edited by - Laika on 03/25/2003 08:12:42 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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SeanG
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Total Posts : 278
| Posted 3/25/2003 6:40 AM (GMT -6) | | May I suggest that some of what you guys quote from the Bible are commands to individuals, and not to nations. Jesus’ edicts were for the individual to inculcate into their own lives. However, serving your nation and its edicts is also commanded… and blessed.
Do you see the distinction? Commands in the Bible are for the individual;
Their really are no commands in the Bible for how nations should act… except when they are so virulently evil that God uses other nations to judge the one’s that are out of control! But many here are open-theists, and do not posit such control of history by God.
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
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SeanG
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| Posted 3/25/2003 6:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Reality Stuns 'Human Shield': 'Saddam Was a Monster'
Some of the appeasement activists who went to Iraq as "human shields" got shocked into common sense when reality dashed their passivist fantasies.
Arnaud de Borchgrave, UPI's Editor at Large and a member of NewsMax's board of directors, wrote Friday from Jordan:A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present.
Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality."
Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists."
"Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."
Susan Sarandon, Michael Moore, Adrien Brody, Chris Cooper and Barbra Streisand, are you listening?
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 3/25/2003 8:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
May I suggest that some of what you guys quote from the Bible are commands to individuals, and not to nations. Jesus’ edicts were for the individual to inculcate into their own lives. However, serving your nation and its edicts is also commanded… and blessed.
Do you see the distinction? Commands in the Bible are for the individual;
Their really are no commands in the Bible for how nations should act… except when they are so virulently evil that God uses other nations to judge the one’s that are out of control! But many here are open-theists, and do not posit such control of history by God.
SeanG!"I quote others only the better to express myself." Michel de Montaigne
If this is true (that nations are exempt from Biblical counsel), then one would certainly have NO business acting like God is "on your side" in terms of your perspective on the war, right?
Just a consistancy question. For more on your distinction between individual behavior and national action watch for some comments in response to BBBCanada coming up on a thread he started recently. I think it has to do with Love and justice....
As for following the leadership of the nation, that is a clearly qualified command. We never are called to be more loyal to any human institution than we are to God. Our loyalty to our nation is a function of reverence to God when and if the country is God's servant for good. We should only fear our country if we do wrong. Well, if our country causes terror among the innocent, something is seriously wrong. Romans 13 includes these conditions explicitly and assumes them in the very expression of commanding our loyalty.
Blind obedience to authority is not godly obedience. We must obey in good conscience (13:5). We pay to all what is due under these conditions of faith and conscience. It is not far from Romans 13 where the same author writes "whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." (14:23)
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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honorman
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| Posted 3/25/2003 10:15 AM (GMT -6) | | I do not posit force as a method of change, but rather as a method for keeping evil in check within our society. True peacemakers recognize that there are times when peace and justice can only be maintained by the use of force. Have you people never read the Old Testament? There are plenty of times when God does step in there. Plus, in the end, God will step in with force.
Peter Krefft told of a cartoon on his door. "On my door there's cartoon of two turtles. One says, 'Sometimes I'd like to ask why he (God) allows poverty, famine and injustice when he could do something about it.' The other turtle says, 'I'm afraid God might ask me the same question."
We must remember that God gave us this world and if we believe he would always step in and take care of things, we would do nothing. This world is our responsibility. If we let it go to hell by not stopping evil where we can, we will be judged for it.
I would further add, Mr Modes, that you are assuming that God always act as you suppose he would act. But I would disagree. I have no problem believing that there are times when God could judge and crush a nation that is evil through natural means. I do not believe there is anything scriptural against this...
One final thought: I do believe, Mr. Modes, that you are confusing catagories. There is a difference in how we act spiritually and in a societal way. Societies, including the one Jesus lived in have always, by force, kept people from committing crimes by putting them in jail. Punishing them. That doesn't mean they stop loving them, but societies have always kept evil people from doing evil by force. That is how one maintains a well running society. We can preach the gospel to rapists and murderers but we should also use force in order to keep them from doing the evil they want to do. That is what a peacemaker and a true lover of the society around them does. That is how a true citizen of the world acts.
Edited by - honorman on 03/25/2003 3:24:01 PM
Edited by - honorman on 03/25/2003 3:27:45 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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| Posted 3/25/2003 10:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Sean: I had read that too. Its nice that some people are seeing the true reality of the situation.
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 3/25/2003 10:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Good thoughts Honorman. I do understand what you are saying and it does make sense. My question isn't with the logic but with the ethics of action.
Of course we see harsh things happening in the OT, but we must remember that God's way of "keeping evil in check" was to allow people to reap what they have sown. Often the phrasing goes something like "your sins will be visited upon you..." Fretheim's book The Suffering of God articulates this thesis well. In fact, there is no Hebrew word that simply means "punish" but rather the idea is that God hears/sees the sin and "visits" it back upon the sinners. When this does not happen, it is often said that God has had mercy. The alternatives are: God's mercy on the one hand--where the sins are not visited upon the violators, or one reaps what one sows.
Check it out. Look up places where your English says "punish" and see what the Hebrew is doing.
If one wants to read the OT as a way to interpret our times, the more accurate way to do this is perhaps that God has withheld God's protective hand and we have borne some small measure of our own sins. (Perhaps the same could be said for Iraq?) But this is to be expected when our leaders say anti-Christian things like "We will act in our own best interest" and of course follows through on this. We cannot at the same time pretend we are doing the world a favor. Most people are just not naive enough to believe both at the same time.
As far as God coming in force at the end times, I think what fyodor quoted (on a another thread?) helps here as well. If Christ can claim that he brought a sword last time, and his action was totally nonviolent in the physical sense, then surely the second coming might surprise us as well. Seperating the sheep and the goats is done by us. We make that decision and God simply infinitizes it. Again, we reap what we sow. god allows this at times, but often God has mercy and we probably don't even realize it. The Christian response to violence in the early church was very clear. Christians were martyred and proud to do it. We find this impractical, to say the least, but what are we sacrificing spiritually for earthly practicality?
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 3/25/2003 10:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Honorman said:
quote:
We must remember that God gave us this world and if we believe he would always step in and take care of things, we would do nothing. This world is our responsibility. If we let it go to hell by not stopping evil where we can, we will be judged for it.
How did you get the impression that I am against stopping evil where we can? I am all for it. But unlike you, I am against the idea of doing it by any means necessary. There are ethical boundaries. All individuals do have infinite value. God did die for each one of them.
Honorman said:quote:
I would further add, Mr Modes, that you are assuming that God always act as you suppose he would act. But I would disagree. I have no problem believing that there are times when God could judge and crush a nation that is evil through natural means. I do not believe there is anything scriptural against this...
[Modes pointing at honorman's omniscience mechanism...] Please don't point that thing at me. If you want to know what I am assuming...just ask. My history with you makes it clear to me that whatever else is true, you do not understand my presuppositions well enough to guess at my assumptions. I happen to agree with you about your point in that paragraph, but unlike you, I think that this could happen to the US as well.
honorman said:quote:
One final thought: I do believe, Mr. Modes, that you are confusing catagories. There is a difference in how we act spiritually and in a societal way. Societies, including the one Jesus lived in have always, by force, kept people from committing crimes by putting them in jail. Punishing them. That doesn't mean they stop loving them, but societies have always kept evil people from doing evil by force. That is how one maintains a well running society. We can preach the gospel to rapists and murderers but we should also use force in order to keep them from doing the evil they want to do. That is what a peacemaker and a true lover of the society around them does. That is how a true citizen of the world acts.
Why are you calling me "MrModes"? Is this a sign of respect? If so, please, don't feel obligated. Is it a subtle insult? If so, please, discipline yourself and refrain.
Romans 13 does in fact show that the power of social law inforcement is in the hands of the legitimate government of the land. Good, let them do their job. But guess what? the US is not the legitimate government over the world. I know its shocking, but I think most humans would agree on this. "WE" as civilians don't have the authority to use force, the government, and its representatives do. I think this is pretty easy to understand really.
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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honorman
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| Posted 3/25/2003 1:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Modes: I never said "by any means necessary," so I would say that I am not the only one who is making assumptions. You say, "we see God acting, but not by violence, or overt coresion." Whether or not we see it, it is very plain in the scriptures that God can and does act that way.
Finally, while the US isn't the legimate ruler of the world, it is the only true superpower left (which all countries adknowledge). Therefore we do have a responsibility from my view to police the world of evil.
Whether the sheep and goats is done by our decisions, God still must make it real. I am sure those who go to hell would rather not be there.
As for the Old Testament, both the incidents of Noah and the Tower of Babel were done to prevent the spread of evil. I am sure I can quote others as well, but those are off the top of my head.
In the end times, you surely do not believe that evil people will be judged willingly...
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honorman
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| Posted 3/25/2003 5:53 PM (GMT -6) | | I did want to add that I do not see anything unChristian in "acting in our best interests," and I do believe we are doing the world a favor as well.
Modes, we civilians don't have the authority to use force. Your child is being raped by a man who has broken into your house. You hear the noise and catch him in your child's bedroom. What do you do, pray?
The early church was martyred because the individual citizens had no power. That is not to say that some did not run and some did not fight back. Not all Christians are called to martyrdom. You are generalizing. Look at David. He ran from Saul. He fought back. One must recognize that the Bible has general principles about how we are to live our lives out as Christians, but how those principles are lived out varies from individual to individual.
We are part of our government, therefore we are responsible as to how that government acts.
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 3/25/2003 6:28 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I did want to add that I do not see anything unChristian in "acting in our best interests," and I do believe we are doing the world a favor as well.
The unchristian part of it is simply the blatantly self-serving character of the statement. Do you really contest that? Christ teaches us to lay our lives down for one another, but we say, no thanks, that's not in my best interest. Well, that is clear enough isn't it?
quote:
Modes, we civilians don't have the authority to use force. Your child is being raped by a man who has broken into your house. You hear the noise and catch him in your child's bedroom. What do you do, pray?
This sounds almost like a mockery. Is that your intent?
My response is clear. In my house, I have authority over this violator. both legally and spiritually. I would deal with him very directly and interfere physically if need be.
quote:
The early church was martyred because the individual citizens had no power. That is not to say that some did not run and some did not fight back. Not all Christians are called to martyrdom. You are generalizing. Look at David. He ran from Saul. He fought back. One must recognize that the Bible has general principles about how we are to live our lives out as Christians, but how those principles are lived out varies from individual to individual.
We are part of our government, therefore we are responsible as to how that government acts.
David and the early church don't have much in common at all. They were both of the same faith and claimed to serve the same God and even the same government. And actually I disagree with you about whether we are all called to martyrdom, we are all called to live our lives out in faith and good conscience. If we understand how radical Christianity really is, we will also understand that living in this way will inevitably put you at odds with any worldly environment, regardless of the culture. No culture is friendly to the idea of self-sacrifice for the sake of the neighbor. True self-denial is not good ethics, but it is good religion.
I agree that we are responsible for how our government acts. I also agree that we as individuals will recognize and make use of that responsibility differently.
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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honorman
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| Posted 3/25/2003 7:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Wasn't mockery, was just showing what I preceived as an idiotic statement. Your statement specifically stated that civilians don't have the authority to use force. Since you now admit that we average people do have the right to use force, it isn't a question of the use of force but rather where each must draw the line.
Sure I contest it: we are to love our neighbor how? As ourself. There is nothing wrong with serving our own best interests as long as it doesn't hurt someone else and particularly when it helps someone else. Nothing at all wrong in that.
When we eat, we serve our own best interests and our families by keeping healthy. If I indulge in a hobby I am indulging in something that makes me happy, serves my own self interest, nothing wrong with that, particularly if it puts me in a good mood and gives me a positive attitude towards others. Nothing wrong with that either. I could go on but I think you get the point. If we never served our own best interests we would never survive.
To love others fully is to learn to love oneself fully.
Then we must agree to disagree. I believe there will be times when we are at odds with society and times we are not. It depends more on whether we are active in society and see it as something that can be used of God, or if we see it as evil and of no use in glorifying God and withdraw from society. It is our choice and our mission. How we view the world will effect how we act within it. If we take the attitude that the world is always going to be against us and there is nothing we can do about it, then there will be nothing we can do about it. I, personally, will not take the attitude that the world God gave us, including the governments and structures are beyond redeeming and beyond using for God's glory. Instead I will use the government and all else to fight against evil where I see it and give God the glory, including giving him glory for the fact that i was born in a great country with a wonderful family and tremendous freedom.
We are all called to a radical life, I would simply disagree with you about what that radical life entails. For me it means changing the world spiritually physically emotionally. In every way. God died for the whole world, not certain parts of it. One day he will redeem the whole thing. Right now he calls each of us to use it all to his glory...let's all get on board...
Are we all to be martyrs? Of course not. Otherwise there would be so many more...
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 3/26/2003 5:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Wasn't mockery, was just showing what I preceived as an idiotic statement. Your statement specifically stated that civilians don't have the authority to use force. Since you now admit that we average people do have the right to use force, it isn't a question of the use of force but rather where each must draw the line.
Any chance you could try to be a bit more respectful in your language? Not that I am particularly worthy of it, it is just that if your rhetoric is always nasty you really lose credibility and you become difficult to interact with. At least for me. Assuming that you are agreeble, here's a response: I did not change my position. If you don't understand my statement ask me to clarify.
quote:
Sure I contest it: we are to love our neighbor how? As ourself. There is nothing wrong with serving our own best interests as long as it doesn't hurt someone else and particularly when it helps someone else. Nothing at all wrong in that.
I agree that win/win situations are possible and good when available. How do we love ourselves correctly? We understand this by looking to Christ and finding ourselves in Christ. Right? Try Phil. 2:1-11. How does this fit with your understanding of self-love? I am not saying this for kicks, please actually interact with this text if you seek to be persuasive. If you don't I will take it to mean that you are simply being contrary.
quote:
To love others fully is to learn to love oneself fully.
I completely agree with this statement. Now, where is the model? I think it is Christ (Phil. 2:5). Do you disagree?
honorman continued:
quote:
Then we must agree to disagree. I believe there will be times when we are at odds with society and times we are not. It depends more on whether we are active in society and see it as something that can be used of God, or if we see it as evil and of no use in glorifying God and withdraw from society. It is our choice and our mission. How we view the world will effect how we act within it. If we take the attitude that the world is always going to be against us and there is nothing we can do about it, then there will be nothing we can do about it. I, personally, will not take the attitude that the world God gave us, including the governments and structures are beyond redeeming and beyond using for God's glory. Instead I will use the government and all else to fight against evil where I see it and give God the glory, including giving him glory for the fact that i was born in a great country with a wonderful family and tremendous freedom.
We are actually in complete agreement at least in words here. Well said.
quote:
We are all called to a radical life, I would simply disagree with you about what that radical life entails. For me it means changing the world spiritually physically emotionally. In every way. God died for the whole world, not certain parts of it. One day he will redeem the whole thing. Right now he calls each of us to use it all to his glory...let's all get on board...
Again, we agree.
quote:
Are we all to be martyrs? Of course not. Otherwise there would be so many more...
Here we disagree. Martyrs are not killed because God forordained it. The mere fact that there aren't many more does not mean that there should not have been. We are ALL called to be martyrs at least spiritually, where we willing die daily to the evil of this world. The word simply means "witness". Are we all to be witnesses? Of course, whether we are or not is simply a matter of our own faithfulness.
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 3/26/2003 6:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Modes: you are right, my comment was nasty and for this I apologize. My reaction was that it seemed you were saying that we, as people, have no authority to use force. In all circumstances. My mistake.
I will need to mull over your other questions before responding.
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 3/26/2003 7:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for the reconciling words. Much appreciated. I look forward to your thoughts.
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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SeanG
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 3/26/2003 5:15 PM (GMT -6) | | I enjoyed your discussion Modes and Honorman.
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 3/27/2003 6:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Modes: in addressinf the issue of being a servant (Phil. 2:1-11), we must address the issue of how one is to serve or what is a servant. And since we are called by Paul in the above to be as Christ, we must look to Jesus for our example. What stands out about Jesus is the following:
Several times Jesus took time out during his ministry to be alone with the Father. He also asked that a few choice disciples be with him in the gardern during his final prayer. These incidents show to me that in order to properly serve we must first be fed and must first be fulfilled. In other words, we cannot serve if we are on empty. Our own needs must be taken care of in order to serve others properly. Jesus was not shy in asking for what he needed and neither should we.
What I also see in Jesus as a servant is that he gave the people what they needed, not what they may have wanted. This we see in his dealings with the Pharisees primarly, but also the average people as well. Jesus served, but he would not be manipulated into doing anything.
So a servant is one who has had his own needs met and then can meet the needs of others.
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