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But let me ask this question. What would be the difference between values and virtues on the whole? Do they overlap with each other? For example, could you say that self-discipline is a virtue?

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The distinction is that a value is something you choose, and we all have them, like it or not. You might value one thing over another or have competing values arrayed in a hierarchy (I value money over family, etc.). Ethics courses for young people teach values clarification.

Virtues are, in the classical sense, social and always are enacted at a cost to one self to better the society. Patriotism, duty, honor, loyalty, honesty, etc. are virtues (Bill Bennett could provide us a whole book on them).

Laying out the distinction this way, it's clear why Wells' prefers Christian virtues over fuzzy and maleable "Christian values."

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When you say that virtues are to be lived in community, are you speaking specifically of the Christian community?

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It's not me, but Wells who made the point. Mr Wells, if you're reading, please contradict me if you disagree with my summary. But, no, virtues are good for the society/community as a whole. There are also, logically, virtues that benefit Christian communities. As you might expect, Christians tend to think that their virtues are just as beneficial to the wider society as they are to any given church.

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Lastly, what would you say to the question of the Christian endeavor towards the psychological? Is it all bad?

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Pretty much. (Wells seems to quantify it at about 95%?). He might allow that the idea that some people have psychological conditions/diseases and aren't demon possessed is a useful insight. But he finds very little else to redeem from our present Therapeutic Culture where self esteem is more valued than the virtues I listed above.

Personally, it pains me that so many seminaries have thriving counseling departments and require psychology based counseling classes. Of course, they're hardly better off when they spend the rest of their time in philosophy-based classes... but that's another hobby horse for another thread.

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Can addictions tell us much about the nature of sin?

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Can the cataloging and disease-ification of addictions that modern psychology gives help us understand sin better? On the contrary, Wells suggests that it confuses the issue. Paul described the "sin that so easily entangles us" and used various other wholly non-psychological terms to describe the insidious nature of sin.

Once we make sin biological and chemical, and make sinners mere victims of their genes (or, at worst, their "dysfunctional" childhood) we make a mockery of the calls to holiness that the Bible gives us, according to Wells' line of thought.

Or, to put it in Wells' terms, we take away the "moral weight" of sin through psyhcologizing, and living life based on values rather than virtues.

Terry
"Be God's"

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The fact is, psychology has given us tremendous insights into many human problems.

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I'm trying to think of examples in the Bible where we read about psychological conditions that afflict modern Americans: depression, low self esteem, anxiety attacks, and the like. The few times I can think of them, the cure seems to be, not prayer and miraculous physical healing as we would expect from a chemical imbalance being correct, but "self healing" where, say, the psalmist comforts his anxious heart by reminding himself of God's faithfulness.

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What do you think of this? This scripture is probably the greatest example of pro-family and psychological soundness found in the Bible.

Mark 5:15-20

15 They came to Jesus and saw the man who had been demon-possessed by the legion sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16 The eyewitnesses described to them what had happened to the demon-possessed man and told about the pigs. 17 Then they began to beg Him to leave their region. 18 As He was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed kept begging Him to be with Him. 19 But He would not let him; instead, He told him, "Go back home to your own people, and report to them how much the Lord has done for you and how He has had mercy on you." 20 So he went out and began to proclaim in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him; and they were all amazed.

Sure, we may say this man’s “mental illness” was directly caused by demonic forces (demon possession). And I believe that some people need “exorcising” though we don’t have a “formula” in scripture about HOW that should be done. In Acts 10:37-38, it says:


37 You know the events that took place throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and curing all who were under the tyranny of the Devil, because God was with Him.

Taking our cue from Christ, I think a legitimate use of Christian counseling can be seen as “doing good” and “curing all who were under the tyranny of the Devil.” As a matter of fact, John Stott uses this verse in terms of political engagement in the world. This would be no different then when Greg talks about the Christian use of doctors in “God at War.” We can see medicine bringing healing as an attack on the kingdom of darkness. We can also see it as a part of partaking in “reversing the curse.”

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The fact is, psychology has given us tremendous insights into many human problems.

I just disagree. More than anything, psychology had given us a new vocabulary, which entails a new way of thinking about the same issues that have inflicted humanity since the Fall. However, I don't belive modern psychology, by anecdote or statistical evidence, is any better at dealing with those problems than parents, poets, shamans and priests were in the 5000 years prior to Freud. In many cases they're worse. That's not insight, it's a new coat of paint. Worse, in many cases the Culture of Psychology creates the problems it purports to solve.

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Well, I just disagree. I suppose if you want to contrast it like that then I would be inclined to agree with you. However, I think its false dichotomy. As a matter of fact, I would say that much modern psychology CONFIRMS what has been said for many moons. For example, it took the fundamentalists like Falwell to come along and say, “Hey, the bedrock of society is the family.” Then comes along study after study showing that a stable family life is detrimental to sound emotional health in children. But, getting back to my statement, psychology has helped us see for example the different types of depression and the different therapies to help alleviate the symptoms. The same can be said for addictions. I think you contradict your first two sentences yet I think we are in much agreement. It may just be a matter of emphasis.


Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16

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A. Is there such a thing as “REAL mental illness?”
B. Is there or is there not such a thing as a LEGITMATE or APPROPRIATE use of Christian psychology (the study of the soul)?

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I doubt we'd have much need for them if we had a more traditional society (with parental figures, respect for elders' wisdom, etc.) and if we weren't so smitten by the culture of expertise.

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Unfortunately, I don't see that our society is going to go back to "glory-days" (the system is such that we are a mobile, microwavable, due to technology, etc, society) if there ever was such an era.

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I'm not a luddite, or anti-technology. I am, however, very much in favor of holding modern society "at arms length" as it were, so we can skeptically examine its many influences on us. That is something that Wells does very well.

We agree that there was never a "golden age" or "glory day" where all was right with the world. However, my point is that we're no better off in most ways with modernist Psychology than we were before it, and we're worse in many ways.

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When you say that the "search for Godliness has been replaced by the quest for psychological wholeness,"

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Wells says it, but he doesn't mean what you seem to mean. He's not devaluing people with severe conditions getting help. He's referring to our obsession with obsessions, with syndromes, with self esteem, with "me time", with all the issues that Dr. Phil (et. al) claim to help us with on a daily basis.

If I can make an assertion: No one worried about self esteem before this century and they seemed to do just fine!

If you want to keep defending psychology only as an means of helping the truly deranged and ill, you'll get no argument from me, but that's not how the modernist discpline and vocabulary of Psychology has infiltrated the culture.

Graygirl:

Please do catch up. I'd love your input! And tell all your friends to join. It's what all the cool people are doing this summer!

Blood Washed Heretic:

Goodness that's a long ID to type in. With your permission I may start calling you BWH..... or just Blood... or just Washed.

Or Chris (because it's a nice unisex name).

So, Chris had this to say:

Why does Wells think "diversity (city life)" is aiding in the decay of our morals?

I can't remember at the moment if this was Wells' point or mine. I'll try to look it up. Here's the notion: diversity makes us less comfortable in tradition and long-accepted ways of behaving. It makes us more prone to accept new and radical ideas. Christian values being a fairly old concept, diversity can lead us away from them, especially if those around us are Hare Krishnas, atheists, Libertarians, or RedWings fans. Their harebrained values might rub off on us and we don't have the strength of community to help shore up our belief system.

I think cultural diversity is the BEST thing that could happen to the stagnated Western church...
Hmmm. I think you're diametically opposed to Wells here, in that he believes the Western church is anything but stagnant. We've been moving away from Christian values in the church to follow the modernist agenda of good feelings.

Why is patriotism a virtue?
I think it fits the definition--see above--but I was just listing it as an example. I'm not lauding Patriotism as a Christian virute (nor does Wells, IIRC), but isn't Patriotism when one values one's country more than one's own well being?

There are plenty of places where Wells criticizes America for its modernist tendencies, so I'm pretty confident he's not one of those "America: love it or leave it!" types.

Terry "These Colors Don't Run" Baxter