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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/29/2003 9:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | I remember some years ago after Kaiser released his first worship album (which is wonderful), he was asked when the next one was coming out. He was totally amazed by the question and saddened by it. He made a great point about worship not being product and that true worship is inspired not manufactured.
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/29/2003 9:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
You neglected to narrow your insult to a specific group of ministers, so no one can be expected to draw a conclusion about what you meant.
Sorry, I really shouldn't have insulted any ministers.
Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through? | | Back to Top | | |
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Christian
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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 5/29/2003 10:35 AM (GMT -6) | | What good purpose does the following comment serve? It was said to Gina from Laika: "Of course I was only talking about your ministers. That's the ONLY conclusion you could draw."
I am so often astonished by such rudenss and condescending remarks that seem to rear their ugly heads so often in the topics here. Where do they come from? From what heart?
I also am offended by derogatory comments towards pastors. I have personally known no money hungry pastors although I do not deny their existence. The pastors throughout my life have been desirous of serving God and have sacrificed much for the sake of their church. They have been worthy of receiving honor for what they have sacrificied for the sake of the kingdom of God. Obviously, there are those in ministry there for wrong reasons, but not all pastors should be lumped together as such.
There seems to be great cynisism and negative thoughts towards church and pastors in these forums. I cannot help but consider that this walks hand in hand with the OV thought that the traditional view of God is wrong and flawed. My suspicion is that an OVer would have great difficulty digesting the words of a traditional pastor and as there are few OV pastors, I am unsurprised at the level of dissatisfaction with church and pastors that seems to exist in the board. It also seems that there is difficulty submitting to authority (a pastor). If a person cannot submit to the authority that a pastor has been given by God, then that person will certainly despise the pastor's teaching.
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Christian
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 78
| Posted 5/29/2003 10:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah, thank you for sharing such wise words. I believe what you mentioned is also what sets the Christian body apart from the individual in the world. Fellowship that can exist in a church where there is coorporate worship is unlike any other type of fellowship and God is present there.
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/29/2003 11:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Christian: there you go again. "I can't help but wonder...the OV," again, perhaps you should get out more. Cynicism towards pastors is church wide, given the scandels of PTL and Swaggart during the 80s. Instead of casting all the problems on this board as a result of the "dreaded OV," perhaps you reflect on the issue itself. Not all pastors desire God. Some come as sheep in wolves clothing.
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Terry_Baxter
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 5/29/2003 11:45 AM (GMT -6) | | [Warning: typing during a long frustrating day at work. I may be snippier than I would like. Consider yourselves forwarned.]
To honorman:
-How I feel about churches (and I've attended Pentecostal, Presbyterian USA, E-Free, Non-Denom, and Covenant) often has more to do with how I feel about myself and my life. If my life is going well, I like the church more.
-Some people have argued that the Modern Worship Routine (fast chorus 1, fast chorus 2, slow chorus 1, slow chorus 2, refrain fast chorus 1 10 times) to be a form of hypnosis (link provided on request). It feels very good, leaves people refreshed, and allows people to turn their minds off as they repeat the lines of well-known choruses several times, arms akimbo, waving to the rythym. I suppose some people would find that satisfying (not saying that you do). But I think a more boring, less orchestrated worship time that doesn't involve a mind wipe is probably less dangerous, however unsatisfying it may be.
-To answer your question directly: I find satisfying, on a spiritual and intellectual level, being around people, because they're God's body. It's a way I experience him. Because we're all human, it's also a way I grow because I get ample opportunity to work on my patience, grace, love and humility when I throw myself in to the mix.
-I also like a good thick bulletin because it gives me something to read during a boring sermon.
To might-be-Don:
-Man, do I disagree with you. In my current church, people call the pastors "Pastor" because they respect them so much. In fact, I'd say the opposite of your argument is true: Beware of flat churches because it's very possible the people have no respect for authority, particularly the spiritual authority of the church. Those lay people may also be 'thinking of themselves more highly than they ought' by trying to force a democratic equality.
-Of course, we also ought not to show favoritism in church, either.
To Brandon and Might-be-Don:
-I firmly believe ecclesiastical order is God-ordained (not any particular order, just that there be some hierarchy) and as such, servant-leaders have their proper place in church. Paul himself constantly uses (sometimes in jest) his 'spiritual authority' in his letters.
-It saddens me that there seem to be so many people so uncomfortable with the very idea of human authority and/or have been abused by illegitimate uses of human authority in their churches. I crave authority and view it as a covering, both in my work life and my spiritual life.
To Laika:
-You crack me up. Sorry for the heat you're getting. I've experienced the "Pastor Bill's" of whom you speak. In fact, my family left a church shortly after our 'Pastor Bill' repeated a "heavenly vision and converssation with an angel" he'd had the night before. Unfortunately for him, someone else in the congregation had watched the same TBN show he had been watching and saw the same TBN "minister" relay the same vision as HIS OWN vision of God. Our good ol' Pastor Bill was too stupid to even make up his own (completely unverifiable) "visions from the Lord." LOL
-Your experience with the overblow reaction to your humor is, by the way, proof of how damn absurd it is to try to "make everyone we come in contact with feel loved". People, especially in this day and age, are so easily offended, you can barely say anything that isn't constant praise without being labeled unloving, judgemental etc. You can BE loving even if the other person doesn't FEEL loved. People's interpretations of your words are their own and you'll kill yourself trying to limit or control them.
Terry
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/29/2003 12:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Top Ten Signs You Are In The Wrong Church:
10. The church bus has gun racks.
9. The church staff consists of a senior pastor, associate pastor and sociopastor.
8. The Bible they use is the Dr. Seuss version.
7. There is an ATM in the lobby.
6. The choir wears leather robes.
5. The worship services are B.Y.O.S. (bring your own snake).
4. There's no cover charge, but communion is two-drink minimun.
3. The pastor regularly attends meetings in Las Vegas and Atlantic City.
2. The ushers ask, "Smoking or non-smoking?".
1. The women's quartet are all married to the pastor.
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/29/2003 12:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Terry: I have no problem with authority, but not blind authority. Too many Christians passively follow anyone, leads to crisis in the church like the Catholic church is facing now.
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/29/2003 12:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Top Ten Signs You Are In The Wrong Church:
LOL
When you enter the baptismal basin, you see the Croc Hunter standing by the side of it.
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/29/2003 2:47 PM (GMT -6) | | I with honorman on this. Believe me, I am NOT a big person for upping and going down the street to the next church because a parishioner has problems in their church. The church is not a salad bar where we can pick and choose what we want out of it. Actually the fact that this happens so frequently as it does, is more of a reflection on the church than it is on the individual. Anyhoo, I agree that we learn growth when iron sharpens iron.
But I do believe that there are times to cut your losses. But this should be after MUCH struggle. The pastors of which I talk about are pastors of whom we should be in relationship with for the time we are in that particular fellowship and it should be clear as to the reason for departure. There ARE times to do this.
A nice book to read on this is:www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0830816402/qid=1054254557/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-4911896-5052810?v=glance&s=books
Lastly, I agree with you that "ecclesiastical order is God-ordained." But I see this more in terms of function rather than in terms of delineation of position. And I agree that Paul used his authority, especially when he saw things as being detrimental to the church.
P.S. Honorman, on Kaiser? That is sooo typical of him. It's almost like we heard the same conversation. He sure is an example to emulate. I'm hoping to take my son to JPUSA to lend a helping hand. Do whatever. Soup kitchen. Clean floors. Repair walls. Whatever. Just want to give my son some "real-life experience." Christianity in action. By the way. LOVED your top ten. Bring your own snake...HA! HA! HA! 
Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/29/2003 3:18 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/29/2003 8:13 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
You neglected to narrow your insult to a specific group of ministers, so no one can be expected to draw a conclusion about what you meant.
Actually, Gina, it seemed to me that Laika was deriding the idea that a guy with a fifth grade education might be someone whose opinion on spiritual matters he should respect. Obviously this would not apply to all your highly educated pastor relatives.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/29/2003 8:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I remember some years ago after Kaiser released his first worship album (which is wonderful), he was asked when the next one was coming out. He was totally amazed by the question and saddened by it. He made a great point about worship not being product and that true worship is inspired not manufactured.
You guys may not believe this, but I cut my teeth on Resurrection Band back in the 70s. My older brother was really into the nascent Christian Rock movement. Glenn Kaiser and the ministry of JPUSA are outstanding. What was the title of Kaiser's worship album? No doubt I would thoroughly enjoy it.
Laika: Too funny about the chorus "lyrics!" I certainly agree that we need more meaningful choruses.
I also think that we very much need solid Bible teaching and preaching (exposition and application), not just "how-to" pep talks. (These comments are by no means directed at ANY particular minister or ministers. Any similarity to persons living or dead, is purely coincidental).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 5/30/2003 1:33 AM (GMT -6) | | John Earp
quote:
I also think that we very much need solid Bible teaching and preaching (exposition and application), not just "how-to" pep talks. (These comments are by no means directed at ANY particular minister or ministers. Any similarity to persons living or dead, is purely coincidental).
LOL
Maybe we need to get standard disclaimers, in perfect lawyer-ese, into our signatures.
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 5/30/2003 2:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
To might-be-Don:
-Man, do I disagree with you. In my current church, people call the pastors "Pastor" because they respect them so much.
Try calling them by their first name, without the title. If they don't react in a negative way over the course of time, you do truly have an exceptional pastor. I hope you have the same respect for the gray-haired little old lady on the third pew on the left.
quote:
To Brandon and Might-be-Don:
-I firmly believe ecclesiastical order is God-ordained (not any particular order, just that there be some hierarchy) and as such, servant-leaders have their proper place in church. Paul himself constantly uses (sometimes in jest) his 'spiritual authority' in his letters.
"...until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. " . I'm not saying I have no need of a pastor, only that my need of a pastor is the same as my need of the grayed-haired little old lady. She has as much 'authority' as the pastor. Why? She knows, loves, and lives for the same Jesus as he does, and I do.
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"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 5/30/2003 5:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
To might-be-Don:
-Man, do I disagree with you. In my current church, people call the pastors "Pastor" because they respect them so much.
Try calling them by their first name, without the title. If they don't react in a negative way over the course of time, you do truly have an exceptional pastor. I hope you have the same respect for the gray-haired little old lady on the third pew on the left.
I agree that the title should not be overemphasized; the function of shepherding is what's important. Paul instructed the Ephesian elders in Acts 20 to "feed the flock that the Holy Spirit has made you overseers of."
quote:
To Brandon and Might-be-Don:
-I firmly believe ecclesiastical order is God-ordained (not any particular order, just that there be some hierarchy) and as such, servant-leaders have their proper place in church. Paul himself constantly uses (sometimes in jest) his 'spiritual authority' in his letters. "...until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. " . I'm not saying I have no need of a pastor, only that my need of a pastor is the same as my need of the grayed-haired little old lady. She has as much 'authority' as the pastor. Why? She knows, loves, and lives for the same Jesus as he does, and I do.
I must disagree with this. As one who has been involved as both pew-sitter as well as pastor and unrecognized pastor, it seems to me that the little old ladies, while precious, are usually not well qualified to teach the Bible. Love 'em to death, sweet as they are, by all means ask them to pray for you lots. However, the Bible seems clear that we need both little old ladies (Eldresses) as well as Shepherds. (And I don't mean CEOs, I mean spiritual leadership).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 05/30/2003 11:01:25 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 5/30/2003 6:25 AM (GMT -6) | | I believe each of us as a role, but I believe many times the importance of one role is overemphasized. While I believe Paul asserted his authority, I do not believe he did it to assert his own importance. To me, that is the prime difference with today. WE ACT as if pastors matter more to us and God. While the little ole lady may not seem as significant, she should be treated with the same respect and love as a pastor, and she has just as much importance to the church, just in a different way.
I have EVERY Rez Band album I think that has been made. Right now the Band is on an extented vacation and Kaiser the past couple of years has been recording blues albums. He has two worship albums out, both good, but the first All These Days, is a classic. You would probably have to pick it up directly through Jesus People USA, but if you cannot find it anywhere I could provide you with a copy.
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 5/30/2003 7:05 AM (GMT -6) | | After this I will respond to dialog about pastors on my Droppin Out thread, don't want to continue to take honorman's worship quest off track.
What I have found is that many pastors ( not all ) choose to try and do the fishing for you, instead of teaching you how to fish. If they are doing their job of teaching and keeping the wolves away, I can do my job of living my life in a God honoring way. Teach me how to make a decision about whom I should marry, don't try and impose your will on my life. Some pastors think they have some kind of special connection with God, this I think is completely off track. While some have completely bought into the "shepparding" stuff, most will in a much more subtle way do the same thing, and few will teach out of a heart that desires growth in reliance in God and not on themselves. If they were able to teach in an effective manner, it would eventually mean they must move on to another flock, and many have NO desire to do that as it would mean leaving the "ministry" they have built.
Am I a little dishearthened, yes. The nature of the current church heirarchial structure leaves many pastors saying, "look at what I have built" . They say, "God built this", but ask them to leave and you'll see a horse of a different color.
peace and love, don
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"You cannot step twice into the same river; for fresh waters are ever flowing in upon you." Heraclitus | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 5/30/2003 12:36 PM (GMT -6) | | "Bring your own snake"...LOL...OK...ummm...REZ BAND ROCKS!!!
OK. That was lame. 
Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16
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Magneton
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 6/7/2003 6:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Back to your original question, honorman. I am less concerned with the form or style of worship than with the passion of the worshipers. And by passion I don’t mean animation, but an inner fire or engagement: being manifest in the lives of the people. It may not be evident in a couple visits to a church, but only as you get to know people and discover the motives behind the form.
When I first visited WHC about 4 yrs ago, my initial reaction to the animated worship style was negative – it was a big adjustment from what I was used to. But as I came to understand (through teaching and example) that the form follows from a passion for God, I have come to embrace it. I really like the form/style, mainly because the underlying passion has become a part of my life. But I think another style or form which arose from passion would be just as appealing.
Kierkegaard, in Judge for Yourself!, says that Christ doesn’t want admirers; he only wants disciples. I think this applies to our worship. So often our worship is limited to reciting the greatness and goodness of God without personal engagement: we find ourselves admiring rather than following and uniting with God. This is why I think the traditional definition of worship, ascribing worth to God, is so inadequate. Taken by itself, it describes a detached accounting operation similar to evaluating one’s stock portfolio. I prefer to think of worship as expressing that God is the Center of my life. It says that passion is not optional in worship.
Magneton
“Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair.” Gilbert K. Chesterton
Edited by - Magneton on 06/08/2003 1:04:17 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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