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hand_carved
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 111

Posted 6/20/2002 6:40 AM (GMT -6)

Doc: "Apparently, God is not a legalist. His love reaches beyond his ethical ideals.

We see this most clearly on the cross where Christ BECOMES Sin (2 Cor 5:21). Far from being a prudish God who can’t be touched with any hint of compromise, God’s love led him to become what is opposite himself. For our sake, out of love, he experiences his antithesis. He becomes sin! Blows me AWAY. Talk about "accommodation." "

Adam:

He "became sin" in the sense that He, by His birth, inherited the *effects* of sin. He "became sin" in the sense that He took upon Himself all of our sin. However, he did not "become sin" in the sense of sinning. Am I mistaken? Therefore, that is not God "accommodating Himself" in the sense of saying "sin is okay, I will bless you anyway."

I guess I'm still totally clueless as to where we are getting the idea that Jesus condones or "adapts himself" to divorce in the sense that it's okay to get divorced.

It seems to me the Sermon is saying the opposite of what you are arguing. I know I have got to be misunderstanding you, but just to make sure I'll go on. It seems like you're arguing that God says concerning some sins (as society evolves) "This sin is okay, in fact I will even bless it." But everything I know (which isn't saying much...hehe) about God and sin seems to say, "Sin is not okay, but in my grace I will bless you anyway." There is a great chasm of a difference between the two as far as I see it anyway. The former seems to encourage complacency and conformation to the world; the latter seems to encourage grace and humility while continually conforming to God's will.

I haven't really studied the issue of divorce in depth (as I probably should have by now), so I'm not about to say it is or isn't adultery. But assuming (as you say) it is adultery... He has just mentioned that it would be better to not have a hand or an eye than to committ adultery. Throughout this passage, isn't He expanding (not nullifying) the parameters of sin? I see nowhere where He even hints at an adulterous divorce being okay. Am I just missing something? You say, "He never forbids it." He called it "adultery" having just said that adultery is a terrible thing.

How can we say that Jesus is condoning divorce in the Sermon on the Mount any more than he is condoning looking at a woman lustfully? Would you then say that Jesus "accommodates" himself to lustful thoughts in pornography (I'm sure you're not...are you?)? Because aren't these said in the exact same kind of context? And for that matter, how could you not, with your exegesis (from the way I'm most likely misunderstanding you), come to the conclusion that even adultery is okay? I mean, after all, we are only human with these natural desires, and society is becoming more and more promiscuous, kids loosing their virginity at earlier and earlier ages, etc. It seems like the perfect time for God to "accommodate" himself to our situation that misses the mark. I know this is probably not what you are saying. I just don't understand how you can come to one conclusion (God accomodates himself to divorce) without coming to the other conclusion (God accomodates Himself to pornography, adultry, etc.).

It seems to me that if we, as you say, "let the text speak for itself," if anything is understood it is that Jesus is saying, "No! Don't do these things! These are destructive! Rather, do God's will, treasure in heaven, seek His righteousness, and then you will be blessed eternally."

I guess it is hard for me to understand why God would "accomodate" in the sense of saying, "It's okay to do this sin now." I especially don't understand how you can come to this conclusion from the Sermon on the Mount which portrays God's will and his Kingdom and his righteousness as something that we should strive for more than all the pleasures of the world (even if that means loosing a hand or an eye or being persecuted). I read the Sermon as saying, "This (sin) is bad; God has something much better for you."

I know this is probably not what you are trying to do, but it seems like you're almost trying to bend God will to fit what is popular. It was popular to have more than one wife, concubines, etc., so now it is within God's will ("He accomodates Himself to it"). It is popular to get divorced, so now it is within God's will. Is it not also popular to have premarital sex while living together?

But that is not what the Sermon is about. "But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." The heart of the sermon is to look at the will of God and adapt our lives to it, not to look at the way we are and find comfort in the fact that God's will adapts to us, or God "allows for" my sin.

This is a lot of the stuff I was going to discuss in my essay, but I guess it will have to wait. The whole reason why the Sermon on the Mount is so provocative to me is that it presents God's will as something to strive for, something that is beautiful, something that is valuable. It helped me to see that God's will is my only true joy in this life. The Sermon helped (helps) to shift my focus from the temporal to the eternal, from treasure on earth to treasure in heaven. THAT is why I personally want to know what is sin (hamartia = "missing the mark" of God's will) and what is not. Because God's will is my only joy. Everything else is ephemeral, transient, vanity. Would it not be silly to want that or to want to keep living in that which is not best?

I wish I lived every moment of my life according to this principle because when i do, oh the sweet peace and joy! But when I don't, when I become caught up in myself and my transitory pleasures that miss the mark of God's will... it is so dissatisfying. The way I see it (in my humble, imperfect opinion) it is not so much that God says, "It's okay for you to sin," but rather, "don't sin, strive to do my will because it is your only joy, but know that you are loved even though you fail." Thank God for His infinite grace!

I'm not saying that you're wrong and that I'm right, but I would really like to know how do you come to these conclusions, especially based upon the Sermon on the Mount. I used to see the Sermon as a collection of unrelated subjects, but now I see that it there seems to be a single theme: God's eternal will is greater than the world's ephemeral pleasures. Read through it and see how pretty much every passage directly or indirectly relates to this point. I will post it at the end of this message.

I hope this message finds you all well and walking in love. Please pray for me as I drive to see my fiancee in Texas (I'm in Arkansas). And pray for her brother and his fiancee as they are getting married this weekend. I'm not sure if I will be able to post this weekend, but if I can't, I love you all, and deeply appreciate your interaction in this discussion.

In His Grace...

Adam

hand_carved
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 111

Posted 6/20/2002 6:41 AM (GMT -6)

SERMON ON THE MOUNT (NIV)

5:1 Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him,
2 and he began to teach them, saying:
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
13 "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.
15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.
26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
31 "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'
32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
33 "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.'
34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;
35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.
36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black.
37 Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'
39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
6:1 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'
14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
16 "When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face,
18 so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light.
23 But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.
25 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?
26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?
27 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life ?
28 "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin.
29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.
30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.
33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,
29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

hand_carved
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 111

Posted 6/20/2002 6:46 AM (GMT -6)

wow, you guys write fast. I started writing the previous as soon as I read Doc's first post today.

The curse of ADD, I guess... Where's my Adderall, dang it!!???

"I'm beside myself!" C-3PO, Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones.

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 6/20/2002 6:54 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Semeia wrote (in response to Selah's post):
quote:
Does Jesus forgive us for angry thoughts, careless thoughts, and lustful thoughts, which he equates to murder and adultery in terms of sinfulness?

Does the fact that we are forgiven for sin mean that we shouldn’t consciously avoid it? If we, as Christians, are to be constantly making an effort to be more like Christ, then are we not obligated to identify sin in our OWN lives, and choose to reject it? I don’t think Selah is asking here about judging others. She is asking about a personal decision about personal sin (assuming, of course (which I am not), that remarriage after divorce should be considered sin). All she’s saying is that if it’s sin, then as Christians, we shouldn’t do it. Right?

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

Brett,
I have to say I love you! I'm writing "simplify" on a post-it right now! (not to say I will HEEED my post it

)

While I'm here, and on the subject of simplifying I'm going to confess to my other "Identity" ...Yes, I'm also Lucia.

I created her in the hopes to dialogue "fresh" with people who know me (in real life) and know me as "selah" online. I wanted to (for a while) to go incognito and get some very objective opinions in the areas I was processing. Plus, I just got bored. Hopefully everyone can understand.

Anyway, I can see how that could grow into HUGE confusion now!!

So, please forgive me for my alias. I wanted to say this here so that Semeia could piece together my (undeniable) fragmented thoughts...

BLESS YOU SEMEIA if you are going to try to attempt that

love, love, love,
selah

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 6/20/2002 7:06 AM (GMT -6)

Brett said:

Does the fact that we are forgiven for sin mean that we shouldn’t consciously avoid it? If we, as Christians, are to be constantly making an effort to be more like Christ, then are we not obligated to identify sin in our OWN lives, and choose to reject it? I don’t think Selah is asking here about judging others. She is asking about a personal decision about personal sin (assuming, of course (which I am not), that remarriage after divorce should be considered sin). All she’s saying is that if it’s sin, then as Christians, we shouldn’t do it. Right?

Semeia:

So based on Jesus words about divorce and remarriage being adultery - why didn't he outlaw divorce and remarriage? His statement assumes that the woman will remarry. Logically, we see that he assumes she will "live in sin" and doesn't prevent it.

The Sermon on the Mount drives home the point that we are all in sin. No, we should not "sin more, so that grace might abound" but we also must ADMIT that there is a great deal of sin that we cannot ever overcome, that requires God's forgiveness.

We will never ever get rid of every careless thought, angry thought, or lustful thought - nor do we live in a constant state of repentance over those things. We miss the mark. We are all in our fallen nature less than God's ideal. But within that reality we must look to love. Even though according to Jesus remarriage is adultery, and missing the mark, nonetheless it is better than NOT looking for a lifelong commitment and partner to love. God allowed divorce because of the hardness of our hearts. He allowed it even while acknowledging it was sin. Jesus does the same thing with remarriage.

By the way, even with divorce, the sin is lifelong. Even when people repent and start over, the sin reaches into the future. My parents divorced when I was fourteen, and the effect of that divorce has reverberated over all of us for the rest of our lives. God forgives, but the sin is often still with us, and continuing, even as we strive to move forward with a new start.

How do you interpret Jesus' words here, Brett? Do you think he is saying divorced people shouldn't remarry? How do you deal with his acknowledgement that remarriage is adultery? Do you agree that Jesus believes adultery is a sin, and remarriage is adultery? How does a remarried person consciously try to avoid that sin? Should they get a divorce? Should they never remarry to begin with? Or is that just Jesus' way of driving home the point that we all have a log of sin in our eye?

I think I'm going to take a break from this thread, because I feel like I'm just going over and over the same thing and I can't communicate it well enough. Perhaps Doc can come up with a way to say it that is clearer - although I thought what he said in his second to last post was very clear.

Thanks,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

hand_carved
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 111

Posted 6/20/2002 7:17 AM (GMT -6)

SEMEIA: I think I'm going to take a break from this thread, because I feel like I'm just going over and over the same thing and I can't communicate it well enough.

ADAM:

I think we all kind of feel that way. I think the problem is probably trying to say too much in one post, then someone responding to all of it while bringing up more issues, and more issues... etc. That's why I was wanting to start a new thread. Perhaps I can before the week is over.

"I'm beside myself!" C-3PO, Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones.

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 6/20/2002 7:52 AM (GMT -6)

Adam,

Thanks, but I think I'll steer clear of any new thread myself. I think I will let what I have written so far stand for right now. I have temporarily run out of energy for the discussion.

I feel like most of the questions that are arising, for example about the divorce and remarriage scripture, I have repeatedly answered. I just don't feel like continuing to repeat the same thing. And none of the objections to my analysis of that scripture offer a different analysis. So that leaves me in a position of restating again and again the same thing, which I don't want to do.

I have been wanting to rejoin the Bonhoeffer thread, but the reason I have stayed engaged in this discussion is because it deals with many of the central issues of Bonhoeffer's "Ethics."

Adam I assure you that Greg is not suggesting that we accommodate ourselves to the world, in the sense that you imply. But there is a reality to the world that Jesus' acknowledged - and when we deny that reality we reduce our ability to love the people around us.

Selah and Brett, I think I have already answered your questions, but perhaps Doc or someone else can find a way to say it that is more meaningful or impactful. Other than reposting what I have already written, I don't know what else to say.

Thanks for the dialogue,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 6/20/2002 10:09 AM (GMT -6)

Semeia,

Thanks once again for sharing your understanding of the heart of God, "...that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them."

This thought has followed me the last few weeks, God has reconciled himself to the world ,God has reconciled himself to the world ,God has reconciled himself to the world ,God has reconciled himself to the world ,God has reconciled himself to the world ,God has reconciled himself to the world .

peace and love, don

"It's time to wipe the tears from our eyes time to stop questioning why, 'cos every clipped birds gonna fly the Healing has begun" T.S Taylor

Empiress
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363

Posted 6/20/2002 10:43 AM (GMT -6)

Semeia said:

quote:
It also assumes that God will love us more based on our DOING, when in fact he loves us completely already in our BEING.

*Holy Spirit shivers*

God has spent the last three years teaching me that. I think I'm finally starting to get it. But it's tough to work past all of the programming I recieved since I was a child!

Thank you so much for saying this.

~Empiress

Empiress
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363

Posted 6/20/2002 11:10 AM (GMT -6)

Doc asked:

quote:
What I’d like help thinking through is how I or someone who shares my belief (or any similar conviction about systemic sin – e.g. homophobia) could work to wake people up to this demonic system and not be judgmental? How can a person do their part in pointing out systemic racism – or any systemic sin – while yet holding to Jesus teaching that we aren’t in a position to find specks when you yet have logs in your own eye?

1. I do not think that observing and then pointing out the hurt/abuse people are suffering is the same as making a moral judgment against the people responsible. To observe and say, "Look, people are getting hurt by these actions/systems and they need to stop" is not the same as saying, "Hey you evildoers, I rebuke you. Stop sinning." Plus, the latter is much less effective.

2. Preaching the Gospel and its powerful message is always a necessity. But we don't need to isolate a specific group of people and target them with accusations. We can talk about the "sin of racism" or "homophobia" for instance, without pointing fingers and looking down our noses at people. And we can trust the Holy Spirit to use the words of the Gospel to convict people. We can't "play" at being the Holy Spirit in someone's life and when we do play that game, it usually only serves to make them more defensive and ingrained in their ways anyway.

3. As St. Francis said, "Preach always. Use words if necessary." I think living according to the Gospel is the greatest "rebuke" of sin there is. That's why Jesus tells us to "turn the other cheek." In doing so, we illumine and convict the person of sin simultaneously, without stating our moral judgments. Our actions speak. And Ghandi lived those words out so well...he's a good example of what confronting systemic sin looks like ala the Gospels.

Those are my thoughts at the moment! Great question Doc. What do you think?

Peace,
Empiress

shell
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280

Posted 6/20/2002 11:30 AM (GMT -6)

Semeia,

You sound pretty drained by this thread...just know that you have had an impact through the efforts you have put in here to dialogue on these topics.

The key for me in reading your analysis of the sermon on the mount in the past and hearing Doc preach on it at church as well, awakened something in me for the first time in my life:True freedom in Christ. There is no other way. It's nothing that we can DO or ACCOMPLISH or TRY HARDER etc.

Some of the questions being raised here(and I am really weak at conveying things like this!)reminded me of in Romans 5:20 where it talks about where sin increased, grace increased all the more. It was like that just couldn't be grasped so the question that is answered next is "Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? And the answer is "by no means! We died to sin: how can we live in it any longer? ..."For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin -because anyone who has died has been freed from sin."

It's almost like the same questions and concerns about sin asked in Romans are being echoed on this thread...It's hard to accept free grace...allowances for our complete inability to hit the mark..the bar has been raised too high...we are all living in a less than ideal state and we can't get there by trying not to sin. What I take from this is that we will all continue to have logs in our eyes, but as we personally experience the true grace and mercy and love of Christ, the holy spirit works on us and molds us, but there isn't to be any striving on our part. Our walk with Christ is based on our desire to experience him more deeply, and doesn't depend on a sinless state, yet we we don't view it as a free liscense to sin because the holy spirit is at work deep in our hearts. When I read Romans 8 we have two choices. 1) to have our mind set against God, it is hostile to God. or 2) living with our minds set on what the Spirit desires. When we are IN CHRIST there is no condemnation, and I believe the holy spirit draws us to bring our hearts in accordance with God's will as we follow Christ.

Does any of this make any sense Semeia..It is like painful for me to get out what I have swimming around in my brain(okay... no blonde jokes from anyone who knows me)...being articulate isn't one of my gifts!

Thanks for all you have shared...see ya on another thread soon

Love Shell

Edited by - shell on 06/20/2002 4:35:13 PM

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 6/20/2002 12:58 PM (GMT -6)

A few quick thoughts: one have five minutes. On your mark, get set...
1) Shell, you write beautifully. What are you talking about with this "I'm inarticulate" business!
2) Thanks for the feedback ya'll on my question. Good stuff.
3) On Accomodation and the Sermon on the Mount. Adam, do a little study on polygammy and concubines in the OT. God told David after he sinned with Bathesheba (don't have time to look up the verse), "how could you do this after I blessed you with all these wives, concubines, weath, etc...?" Its not God's ideal, for sure, but he always works within the parameters of the real.

If this were not so, we'd all be gonners. EVERYTHING about God's interaction with us since the fall has been an accomodation. He urges us to shoot for "a." We blow it. He says, okay, "a" now indites you. Repent and shoot for "b." We blow it. He says, okay, I still love you, "a" and "b" stand over you and show you're a sinner. Lets work at "c." We blow it. ... etc...

This does mean "b" and "c" and "z" are wonderful, condoned, etc... They're simply the best we can shoot for "in the real."

Every worked with someone who has got multiple issues? You've got to decide, which issue should we shoot at first, letting the others slide? You can't shoot at EVERYTHING all at once. Well, this is something like how God works with us individually, how God works with us socially, how God works with historical epochs, and how God works with the whole of the cosmos.

I think Jesus' main point in the Sermon on the mount is "look at "a" and you won't feel self-righteous." God's ideal for people -- is "a" is lifelong marriage. We blow it. We can remain single, if we have that gift, or get remarried. Even if we remain single, we're now on "b." But if we don't have the gift, "b" might degenerate to z" so it may be better to go with "c". By "a"s standards, "c" involves adultry, but its better than "z".

This was probably the single most unintelligible thing I've ever written. But I'm in a hurry and have GOT to go NOW.
bye bye

Greg

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 6/20/2002 1:14 PM (GMT -6)

Semeia,

I know your gone now, but I have a feeling you will read this one day.

First, I want to say I was a bit taken back by your 10:30 post. I couldn't see how you could draw all those conclusions about my paradigms from a few words written online. This one was really most surprising: "The paradigm from which you ask your questions assumes a state of relative sinlessness right now."

Wow, IF that is what I'm communicating, I am worse off then I thought when I put words to paper! (I'm considering retirement or Brett's idea of simplificatioon!!)

Please give me grace, and think of me as the OPPOSITE of you in being able to communcate linear ideas, concepts, illuminating thoughts, or plain ol rhetoric in written form. Truly it's not my giftedness. Clearly it is yours.

Now, and more importantly, another part of that same post helped me understand your view of remarriage. I think I can see why it doesn't look "absurd" to you, as it did to me. This is uniting and good.

When you said: And if our focus is on loving, and we happened to have suffered through the pain and tragedy of a divorce, we pick ourselves up again and dust ourselves off, and try again to make the lifelong commitment to a person that leads to the most profound expression of true, deep love in our life.

I thought of it like this: "If remarriage helps us to live in love and express love in a deeper way, replicating it to others etc. Then, because LOVE is primary...it would be good to remarry."

Hopefully I'm close, because I could get behind that type of thinking!

Then you said:
And we take the same compassion and mercy and love with which God allows us to do this, and we start applying it to everyone we meet, whatever their situation. And we always assume that in comparison to them, our sin is a log, and theirs is a speck.

I really want you to know that I have always agreed with this part, and, again, it was beautifully said.

Blessings in all you do,
love
selah

Shine
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 24

Posted 6/20/2002 1:44 PM (GMT -6)

We are doing a disservice by condoning a sin:
We are doing a disservice by condemning a sin:
We are doing service by loving and praying for that person who is in a sin!

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Shine
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 24

Posted 6/20/2002 1:45 PM (GMT -6)

Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 6/20/2002 1:48 PM (GMT -6)

Doc:

quote:
Apparently, God is not a legalist. His love reaches beyond his ethical ideals.

Then God is the essential realist, in the true sense of the word. Sweet! Lots of delicious ambiguity there. Should we not, then, follow God's example? I'm smellin' some Bonhoeffer here...

PS: Almost, Modes. Almost.

hand_carved
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 111

Posted 6/20/2002 9:27 PM (GMT -6)

Doc,

So, then, I guess you're saying I wasn't misreading you? You are saying, then, that Jesus does condone adultery, pornography, calling our brothers "fools," swearing oaths, loving only those who love you, etc.? I know that you were in a hurry and couldn't answer my post in its entirety, and I completely understand. I'm going to assume that you aren't saying that all these sins are now "wonderful, condoned, etc." But I would like for you to show how your exegetical approach doesn't come to this conclusion (if indeed it doesn't).

In my finitude, of course, I still can't see how Jesus can be saying "Divorce is wonderful." Isn't the order here: (1) Adultery is terrible, (2) in fact it is better to lose an eye or a hand than to commit adultery, (3) Divorce causes adultery. I don't see a (4) Divorce is great, do it as many times as you can because it is now "wonderful, condoned, etc." Instead, after the divorce passage he says directly "Don't do this, don't do that." Directly before the divorce passage, He is pointing out bad things not to do. How can it honestly be read as anything but "don't do divorce, it's bad." Where am I missing this thing that is so apparently obvious to everyone else but me?

Doc said:
Its not God's ideal, for sure, but he always works within the parameters of the real.
If this were not so, we'd all be gonners. EVERYTHING about God's interaction with us since the fall has been an accomodation. He urges us to shoot for "a." We blow it. He says, okay, "a" now indites you. Repent and shoot for "b." We blow it. He says, okay, I still love you, "a" and "b" stand over you and show you're a sinner. Lets work at "c." We blow it. ... etc...
This does mean "b" and "c" and "z" are wonderful, condoned, etc... They're simply the best we can shoot for "in the real."

Adam:
I think I will just repost something I said in my last post that I would really like for you to address. Here it is:

"It seems like you're arguing that God says concerning some sins (as society evolves) "This sin is okay, in fact I will even bless it." But everything I know (which isn't saying much...hehe) about God and sin seems to say, "Sin is not okay, but in my grace I will bless you anyway." There is a great chasm of a difference between the two as far as I see it anyway. The former seems to encourage complacency and conformation to the world; the latter seems to encourage grace and humility while continually conforming to God's will."

I agree: God IS a realist; that is why there is grace. Grace does not say "sin is okay" but rather "sin is evil, however I will love you in spite of your sin." That is the definition of grace, isn't it? - a person giving us what we do not deserve. When we fail, God forgives. When we fail, God has this amazing tendancy to take our failures and make them into something beautiful. That doesn't bring glory to the failure, but rather to the God who makes such an ugly thing beautiful. There is a vast difference between the two.

Semeia,

I hate to see you go, especially with so very, very, very many of my points left unanswered. Are you now changing your mind about taking on the points one at a time? Do as you must, I don't want you to get weary. Perhaps we can carry this on more relaxingly through e-mail.

I'd like to edit this some more, but I'm absolutely brain dead tired! I hope it came across correctly. Again, all I want to do is see how you come to your conclusions.

Adam

"I'm beside myself!" C-3PO, Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones.

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 6/21/2002 12:35 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

If this were not so, we'd all be gonners. EVERYTHING about God's interaction with us since the fall has been an accomodation. He urges us to shoot for "a." We blow it. He says, okay, "a" now indites you. Repent and shoot for "b." We blow it. He says, okay, I still love you, "a" and "b" stand over you and show you're a sinner. Lets work at "c." We blow it. ... etc...

This does mean "b" and "c" and "z" are wonderful, condoned, etc... They're simply the best we can shoot for "in the real."

Every worked with someone who has got multiple issues? You've got to decide, which issue should we shoot at first, letting the others slide? You can't shoot at EVERYTHING all at once. Well, this is something like how God works with us individually, how God works with us socially, how God works with historical epochs, and how God works with the whole of the cosmos.

I think Jesus' main point in the Sermon on the mount is "look at "a" and you won't feel self-righteous." God's ideal for people -- is "a" is lifelong marriage. We blow it. We can remain single, if we have that gift, or get remarried. Even if we remain single, we're now on "b." But if we don't have the gift, "b" might degenerate to z" so it may be better to go with "c". By "a"s standards, "c" involves adultry, but its better than "z".

Greg

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

Greg,

I agree with your post. I think that IS how God works with us. I also think that is how we work with our children. It IS about being real.

As I said in another post, I am merely aware and sensitive to the fact that couples are reading this thread (at least one couple) and are re-thinking entering into "c" if it involves adultry CONTINUALLY.
I can't speak entirely for them, but they have allowed me to share that they USED to think "adultry" was a forgiveable sin, and they were attempting to repent and move on.

What I am painfully trying to ask is simply this: "How is adultry ongoing, while murder, fornication, gossiping, stealing, lying, gluttony etc. are all things we can cease and repent of?" (even though each one knocks us down a notch from God's Ideal "a")

Lastly, to be honest, what I was hoping for I don't think I'll ever get. (because I seriously lack skill in simplification and articulation) So, I'm going to say it myself. If anyone agrees, great, maybe our fellow readers will be encouraged. If no one agrees, well, at least I tried and learned a lot. :)

Here goes: Adultry is just a label. It is not something that remains over you all your life. It is not the unforgivable sin. It is less than God's ideal for some, but it is something that can be completely forgiven and only God and you know if you've made it "right" before God. (in my mind there is a degree of difference between mocking God by being casual about divorcing and remarrying vs. being young and/or
completely faked out by the spouse)

There is also (as Greg said) a degree of difference in choosing ongoing fornication vs. entering into the marriage you are considering. I think the degree spoken about here is that "in fornication" you can stop, decide it is wrong, and repent. In marriage, you repent and are forgiven once and for all and are honoring God's institution.

quote:

Romans 8: 1-5

1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh,

I think the degree of difference is found in verse 5. If we choose to live in fornication vs remarriage, how can our minds NOT be on things of the flesh? If we choose to remarry, we align ourselves more closely with the Spirit, and are set free from continual decision making when it comes to sex etc...? Well, its a thought anyway.

And in closeing

I am just working this out and trying to LOVE by tearing down labels. If you read all my posts (and Lucia's) I hope you will not see me labeling. I don't think I have ever even spoken to the "homosexual" aspect of this thread, because truly, I think the
the playing field is completely level when it comes to that. I don't see a difference between someone doing life within that frame, than my own, or anyone else's. My paradigm is "In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6. Even though I might not know how to express it in every way, all the time...YET :)
I am constantly looking to line up everything I do with that verse. However, I am becoming increasingly aware that the ambiguity of the fallen world (and my fallen self) keep getting in the way. Still, mercy is new every morning, and we all have to press on. I pray exceeding blessings for all.

peace out,
selah

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 6/21/2002 3:42 AM (GMT -6)

Another "quicky" for me. (I’m in 20 hours of classes this week, plus several crises in peoples lives, on top of all the ordinary chaos… agh… If you folks weren’t so dang interesting, you wouldn’t have heard from me at all the last week. That was a compliment.

Preliminary words:1) GREAT to have you back Meph. Hope life is smoothing out a bit.
2) We got a dude (or dudess) names SHINE on board. Welcome SHINE! For those who go back on this board a year or so, you will recall another "Shine"… quite the character, wasn’t he? I miss him. Like, totally. Wha up?

Okay, responses:

Adam: I know this is probably not what you are trying to do, but it seems like you're almost trying to bend God will to fit what is popular. It was popular to have more than one wife, concubines, etc., so now it is within God's will ("He accomodates Himself to it"). It is popular to get divorced, so now it is within God's will. Is it not also popular to have premarital sex while living together?…

You are saying, then, that Jesus does condone adultery, pornography, calling our brothers "fools," swearing oaths, loving only those who love you, etc.?

Doc: Do you see a difference between a) working with the reality of a life/cultural situation and b) bending to "fit what is popular"? And do you see a difference between a) working with the reality of a life/cultural situation and b) condoning everything about the reality of a life/cultural situation?

Adam: In my finitude, of course, I still can't see how Jesus can be saying "Divorce is wonderful."

Doc: Do you see a difference between a) working in the sinful reality of a life/cultural situation and b) saying that the sin of that life/cultural situation is wonderful?

Then again, compared to greater sins that might come about if other sins aren’t passed by, maybe the allowance could be called "wonderful." God’s ideal wasn’t polygamy, but its "wonderful" compared to having a lot of starving women and children who have to prostitute themselves or sell themselves into slavery to survive.

Adam: I agree: God IS a realist; that is why there is grace. Grace does not say "sin is okay" but rather "sin is evil, however I will love you in spite of your sin." That is the definition of grace, isn't it? - a person giving us what we do not deserve.

Doc: Yes. This is the point. I would only add that sometimes in working with the imperfect life/cultural situation of a people or a person, it is necessary to accept certain imperfections to address others. In this sense the sin is "okay." Not in the sense that its IDEAL, but just in the sense that its okay, given the total sinful context of the people or individual.

Do you see how this is not in any sense a carte blanch condoning of sin, and certainly not a pronouncement "this is wonderful" over every kind of sin. Its just that in certain situations, some things have to slide to bring redemption to other things. Its what love requires. I can’t imagine any situation where its loving and life affirming and healthy for anyone to engage in pornography, or murder, or gossip, or pedophilia, or alcoholism, or torture…

Selah: What I am painfully trying to ask is simply this: "How is adultry ongoing, while murder, fornication, gossiping, stealing, lying, gluttony etc. are all things we can cease and repent of?" (even though each one knocks us down a notch from God's Ideal "a")

Doc: I think you’re making a good point. (down to 5 minutes left. Must hurrrrrry). Jesus DOES say remarriage involves adultery. But he doesn’t revoke God’s permission to remarry. In fact, he assumes it. It’s very very difficult (viz. Impossible) to read his words any other way. (Anyone want to give it a try?). Yet, this is NOT the exact same thing as adultery when a person is ALREADY MARRIED to another – any more than adultery in the mind (lusting after someone) is exactly the same as adultery with the body. In remarriage one enters into a new covenant with a partner, and this is good. Its not the same as breaking a covenant of marriage by having sex with another person.

Remarriage differs radically from the other sins you mentioned because it is the loving thing to do in some situations, whereas the other sins are never "the loving thing to do."

I think if a person think about these issues less out of a technical knowledge of good and evil and more out of a mind set that just asks, "what is the loving thing to do," we see most of these distinctions quite clearly.

Selah: Adultry is just a label. It is not something that remains over you all your life. It is not the unforgivable sin. It is less than God's ideal for some, but it is something that can be completely forgiven and only God and you know if you've made it "right" before God. (in my mind there is a degree of difference between mocking God by being casual about divorcing and remarrying vs. being young and/or completely faked out by the spouse)

Doc: I agree completely about the forgivability of all sin. But I don’t see how this means "adultery is just a label." I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. (1 minute left). When you say that adultery is "less than God’s ideal for some…" I’m wondering, is it EVER God’s ideal for some? I think the answer is clearly no. Is it ever the best GIVEN THE REAL SITUATION OF A PERSON? Now it becomes an issue of what KIND of adultery you’re talking about. The adultery involved in remarriage may be. I can think of no other situation where it is the loving thing to do.

Jesus point – and its always vital to ask ourselves about any passage, what is the main point of the context – is not to prohibit remarriage or to make remarried people feel bad. It was to confront the religious MEN who felt justified in "putting away their wives" (their PROPERTY in the first century) for frivolous reasons. Religious men were trying to trip Jesus up with technicalities – their precious knowledge of good and evil, employed (as it always is) for self-serving purpose. Jesus blows them all away by showing that there very question arises out of sin, that all divorce (and remarriage, which is simply assumed) is a break from God’s ideal, and hence that all of (20 seconds left) of these religious folk are sinners. He was, I believe, trying to jar them out of their getting life from their knowledge of good and evil and get them to admit they are sinners – in order to lead them to a grace/love stance rather than a self-justifiying/judgment of others stance.

Bye
GREG

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

shell
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280

Posted 6/21/2002 5:09 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Doc: I think you’re making a good point. (down to 5 minutes left. Must hurrrrrry). Jesus DOES say remarriage involves adultery. But he doesn’t revoke God’s permission to remarry. In fact, he assumes it. It’s very very difficult (viz. Impossible) to read his words any other way. (Anyone want to give it a try?). Yet, this is NOT the exact same thing as adultery when a person is ALREADY MARRIED to another – any more than adultery in the mind (lusting after someone) is exactly the same as adultery with the body. In remarriage one enters into a new covenant with a partner, and this is good. Its not the same as breaking a covenant of marriage by having sex with another person.

Remarriage differs radically from the other sins you mentioned because it is the loving thing to do in some situations, whereas the other sins are never "the loving thing to do."

Shell: Doc, I'm glad you can't resist jumping into this converstion

I definitely agree with what you have said about divorce and remarriage...but this exact conversation came up with my friends over the weekend. You said that "...it is the loving thing to do in some situations, whereas the other sins are never "the loving thing to do."

Okay I have a question here...I will change some of the details here...but we know a couple who were married for 15 years. The husband had an affair with a unmarried woman, which began out of lust. After about a year the affair was discovered. There were many consequences for all involved. The husband went back to his wife and children for a couple of months. The wife was fully intent on restoring the marriage and believed he was to. In a short time the husband ended up leaving his wife and children, divorced her, and married the woman that he had the affair with. The wife was devastated and prayed after he left that God would bring him back to the family and restore their marriage. She was a victim of his lust. Now he has moved on with his life. His wife has never remarried and is raising the two children, living a life that she never dreamed would be hers.

In this scenario of remarriage there were victims, he followed his lust and on and on...he chose not to restore his marriage when his wife waited and prayed and cried before the Lord...but now he is in a new covenant with this other woman, and serving in ministry through his church. This one is very complex to me...it does seem like perpetual sin in a sense. Either way I am not standing in judgement of this person, but I'm just wondering how it fits in with the view of remarriage/less than ideal situations and what you said about remarriage being the most loving thing to do in some situations... but what if it's not the most loving thing to do? What do you think?

Blessings to all,
Shell

Edited by - shell on 06/21/2002 10:38:46 AM

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 6/21/2002 5:51 AM (GMT -6)

Shell said:

quote:
In this scenario of remarriage there were victims, he followed his lust and on and on...he chose not to restore his marriage when his wife waited and prayed and cried before the Lord...but now he is in a new covenant with this other woman. This one is very complex to me...it does seem like perpetual sin in a sense. What do you think?

I absolutely love the point Doc (and Semeia, to a certain degree) is making here. That is, in a fallen world, sin is so pervasive that we are often left with choosing from the lesser of two evils. The way in which we make this choice is to apply the principle of love, i.e., “Of these alternatives, what would bring about the most loving result?” This situation is perfectly demonstrated in the divorce/remarriage context. At times, divorce/remarriage can be the alternative that brings about the most loving result (e.g., repeated spousal/child abuse situation). At other times, such as the situation which you have described above, I believe that we can safely say that divorce/remarriage has not brought about the most loving result, and therefore should be considered wrong.

The point of it all is the heavy distinction between love and legalism. Legalism would tell us to oversimplify this cosmic mess we live in by labeling divorce/remarriage as ALWAYS the wrong choice. The love principle, however, is a reflection of God’s realism[\b] in that it recognizes and accepts the cosmic mess and does not try to resolve it with oversimplified, cookie-cutter moral categories.

Legalism ignores reality. Love makes the best of it.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 6/21/2002 7:19 AM (GMT -6)

Semeia,

I feel like I need to start this from scratch. But I'm trying to get some clear thinking on this. Anyhoo, I know you dealt with this before, but I can’t go back looking through threads to find the post on this. It’s too time consuming. Could you answer this question for me?

“What do you think of Paul’s judgement in I Cor 5:1-8 and his advice to the Corinthian church, of the man who ‘has his father’s wife?’” That is, a man taking the wife of his father other than his own mother and living with her sexually in an ongoing relationship.

Answer as thoroughly as possible. Please do not bring in questions of comparison, like, why don’t we judge other sins, this is one sin among many, etc. This is not the question. The question is a question of Paul’s judgement and advice to this church.

Thanks.

P.S. I think we should have a thread on just divorce and remarriage all by itself, because personally, I think the divorce and remarriage issue skews this conversation on homosexuality. Basically, I see them as two separate issues, though related in other ways.

Brandon
"We must love one another or die."--W.H. Auden

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 6/21/2002 7:30 AM (GMT -6)

Before I haul myself off to Hazelton for their internet addiction recovery program, I'd like to come crawling back here to respond to a couple of things.

(You all knew I was reading this anyway...)

Adam - Doc and I are on the same page on most of these issues. Anything you think I didn't answer Doc can answer for you better than I can.

Selah - I'm sorry if my words were too intense. I tend to put things in a strong way to convey an idea. I didn't mean it as a personal indictment of you, although I do think the thought process is one that depends on the idea that oneself is not "living in sin." (Otherwise the issue of remarriage being "living in sin" would not be a problem.)

On the other comments - I'm delighted that there is SOME AGREEMENT!!!! Yaaaahhhhh!

And I think you do a great job at communicating. We all get easily misunderstood on this type of detached medium.

Brett said:

I absolutely love the point Doc (and Semeia, to a certain degree) is making here.

Semeia:

I'm curious why you would qualify, and say I am only making this point to a "certain degree"? It seems to me that this is the point I have made over and over on this thread and numerous other threads, many of which you have also been on. Here are a few of the things I have said on this thread alone:

quote:
The Sermon on the Mount drives home the point that we are all in sin. No, we should not "sin more, so that grace might abound" but we also must ADMIT that there is a great deal of sin that we cannot ever overcome, that requires God's forgiveness.

We will never ever get rid of every careless thought, angry thought, or lustful thought - nor do we live in a constant state of repentance over those things. We miss the mark. We are all in our fallen nature less than God's ideal. But within that reality we must look to love. Even though according to Jesus remarriage is adultery, and missing the mark, nonetheless it is better than NOT looking for a lifelong commitment and partner to love. God allowed divorce because of the hardness of our hearts. He allowed it even while acknowledging it was sin. Jesus does the same thing with remarriage.

By the way, even with divorce, the sin is lifelong. Even when people repent and start over, the sin reaches into the future. My parents divorced when I was fourteen, and the effect of that divorce has reverberated over all of us for the rest of our lives. God forgives, but the sin is often still with us, and continuing, even as we strive to move forward with a new start.

quote:
In Jesus’ paradigm, the question to ask about remarriage is not whether or not it is a sin (Jesus tells us that it is) – the question to ask is: will marrying again make it more possible to love, or less? In Jesus’ paradigm LOVE is the be all and end all of every decision we make – even when we know from the outset that we will not live up to God’s ideal. I think the point of much of the Sermon on the Mount is that NONE of us ever live up to God’s ideal – we all miss the mark all the time – and yet God loves us and shows us a path forward. If we insist on judging, it is a narrow path indeed (“be perfect, as my father in heaven is perfect”); but if we change our focus to loving we find ourselves swept up in the wideness of God’s mercy.

And if our focus is on loving, and we happened to have suffered through the pain and tragedy of a divorce, we pick ourselves up again and dust ourselves off, and try again to make the lifelong commitment to a person that leads to the most profound expression of true, deep love in our life.

And we take the same compassion and mercy and love with which God allows us to do this, and we start applying it to everyone we meet, whatever their situation. And we always assume that in comparison to them, our sin is a log, and theirs is a speck.

quote:
And we keep on insisting that we just can’t “condone” the other guy’s speck. We’re divorced, or we’re obese, or we’re impatient, or we’re untruthful, or we’re addicted to the computer or to the tv or to video games, or we’re egotistical, or we’re unkind, or we’re full of hubris, or we cheat on our taxes, or we’re stingy with our time, or we’re having an affair, or we’re racist or chauvinist or misanthropic or greedy or hotheaded or know-it-all, or we haven’t done enough to help the people in our family or our neighborhood or our country or our world, or we drink too much or swear too much or tip too little, or we’re quick to anger and slow to praise, or we’re quick to show fault and slow to love and forgive, or we care more about our ideas and opinions than we do about people, or we like the bright people better than the not-so-bright people, or we like the beautiful people better than we like the not-so-beautiful people, or we like the people who look like they’re following the rules on the surface better than the people who mess up all the time, or we mistake earnestness for integrity, and judgment for action, and principles for love… and we’re all filled with an endless list of sins. We can’t measure up; we’re hopelessly flawed in a fallen world, and except for one act of immeasurable love and sacrifice on the cross of Calvary, we’re all lost – standing at the edge of the chasm that separates the fallen world from the perfection of God – all lost except for the love that God gives limitlessly, eternally, for free – and all he wants is for us to love him back and to love each other.

quote:
I agree that God forgives all of us if we repent. And I believe that he loves us all, even when we fall short of his ideal, which we constantly do. And of course I believe divorced people can remarry. But I don't think remarried people either do or should repent every time they have sex - even though Jesus makes it clear that it is adulterous sex. God allows us to fall short of his ideal, and he still loves us. God allows us to pick up the pieces and move forward in the most life-affirming way possible - even though that means, in the case of remarriage, (according to Jesus) that they are living in sin. Of course, we are ALL living in sin, ALL the time.

quote:
God allowed for divorce and remarriage, because of the hardness of people's hearts. Jesus made it crystal clear that, except in cases of unchastity, divorce and remarriage is adultery: i.e., ongoing sexual sin.

One might almost conclude from this that God loves people more than principles.

There is much more I could quote from, both here and on other threads you have participated on.

Brett said:

The point of it all is the heavy distinction between love and legalism. Legalism would tell us to oversimplify this cosmic mess we live in by labeling divorce/remarriage as ALWAYS the wrong choice. The love principle, however, is a reflection of God’s realism in that it recognizes and accepts the cosmic mess and does not try to resolve it with oversimplified, cookie-cutter moral categories.

Legalism ignores reality. Love makes the best of it.

Semeia:

Yes. Exactly. How is that not what I have said a hundred times over on this board?

Don, Empiress, Shell, Thanks for the encouraging words...

Thanks,
Semeia (Struggling to not get pulled back in...)

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

Edited by - Semeia on 06/21/2002 12:34:25 PM

shell
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280

Posted 6/21/2002 7:40 AM (GMT -6)

Brandon,

I don't have time to back through this thread to find it for you, but Semeia definitely addressed that on this thread when dialoging with hand carved near the beginning so it shouldn't be too hard to track down.

Thanks,
Shell

shell
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280

Posted 6/21/2002 7:43 AM (GMT -6)

Semeia,
Thanks for the email, and I will probably see you at Hazelton
when I drag myself in there as well...

Shell

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