 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > Donovan Chavez Brutality | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 7/17/2002 3:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
To Modes: Please don't go there again, we've heard it before. Anytime someone questions your views about the particulars of racism you come out with "I'm doing more than you are", or you claim that your views are the result of "special knowledge". And calling people names doesn't prove anything either, it just proves how small a person is. I know you are an educated person so USE that education and discuss by presenting your case, NOT by trying to "diss" others views.
So go ahead now and tell me how racist or ignorant I am if it make you feel better, one prejudiced statement is as good as any other.
Bobby,
Please do identify what warrants this attack and how you think this contributes positively to the discussion. That will help me to take you seriously.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
 |
Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 7/17/2002 3:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon,
Before I respond I'd like to get clear on what you are saying.
Do you mean to say that women and minorities have not been discriminated against in the past in such a way as to stack the deck against them in the present?
It sounds like you oppose affirmative action. Is it because you don't think the system favors white males?
Do you believe that the fact that almost everyone in the most powerful positions in business and government are white men? Is this because we are most qualified?
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
|
Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 7/17/2002 4:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Modes: explain what advantages you feel you get as a white male that others do not. Please be as specfic as possible. For instance, what makes you feel that you enjoy more privileges?
I have been able to walk into any job I have ever wanted. I haven't even had to put in a resume. Why? Because I have good connections and strong resources. With whom? Powerful white men. Harold, for any specific example I could give, you could offer a counter explanation. This is the nature of life. It is complex. But there are stronger and weaker forces at work and I truly believe that racism is one of the strong ones. Consider the resource issue. If it is true that the VAST majority of CEO's, presidents, etc. people with major power in this country happen to be white men, then it stands to reason that, as Brandon says, the degree of segregation will correspond to the degree of priviledged access via relationships to these people of power. The world is not fair. It's not what you know, its who you know. We all know this is true to some extent. I'd say to a large extent. This effectively stacks the deck against people who don't have relational access to those on top. Think of the owners of the biggest corporations, the biggest businesses, the presidents, the governors, etc. White males. Do you mean to tell me that this is sheer coincidence? It's all based on merit and no women or minorities have what it takes? Is that what you think?
Harold:
How did you find this out?
Modes:
Friends who care about justice more than I did helped me see it.
Harold:
Do you hold more advantages over all minorities, including blacks, Asians and other minorities, or are you just considering blacks?
Modes:
All minorities and women as well. I consider this to be self evident. It is sort of like discussing sin with a non-believer. Either they see it or they don't. The ability of the human mind to rationalize evil is amazing. But if the non-beleiver acknowledges that there really is something desperately wrong with the world, then it is just a matter of time and honesty before they realize that Christ is the only answer to the problem.
Harold:
And how did you find all this out? Did you investigate these things in depth by observing several different minority groups over a long period of time, or did you read up on it, or rely on friends who were minorities. I am really interested in how you came up with such a life changing opinion that you, a white male, hold such a position of advantage and privilege.
Modes:
Yes, I did check this out personally. I continue to check it out. I watch for it daily to see if it is really true. I am continually suprised that it is as bad as it is. And even more surprised that others don't see it. Harold, my guess is that you seek to disqualify what I am saying by attacking what you percieve to be the source of my knowledge. You do realize that that is a fallacious way of establishing a position right?
Harold:
PS: Why do we always act with suspision? I can think of a number of reasons. God calls us to act wisely with our resources. At our church when people ask for money we inform them that we will pay them a certain amount to work around the church. We get at least 1 to 2 calls a week and no one ever takes us up on it. What does that say? I have no problem with being generous. I do have a problem with giving money away without accountability. God expects it from me.
Modes:
I would simply ask you to pay attention to who has access to the resources that you are speaking of and what it takes to share in them.
Harold says:
Modes: I would finally add this: you say we, white males, have a responsibility. How would you know how God would call other white males? It seems to me that you over step boundaries when you assume that because you feel a certain way about race that all white males should and should share the responsibility that you feel God calls you to.
Modes:
The Gospel includes justice and does not show partiality. The church is to exemplify this. The Gospel is about reconciliation, restitution, reunion. The church is to exemplify this. I am not putting responsibility on you Harold. It is already there in the Gospel. To whom much is given, much is required. It's not my idea.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
|
writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/17/2002 6:37 PM (GMT -6) | | This is where you get on dangerous ground, Modes. While the gospel does speak of justice, it does not go into how that justice is brought about specifically. What you are doing is equating YOUR view of how justice is brought about and the gospel as one and the same thing. It isn't.
I do not share your view of how to bring justice about. The gospel, in its purest form is God reconcilling us to himself. Through that we are reconcilled to each other. BUT. Ultimately, the gospel is about our being reconcilled to God, not any justice we may bring about as a result of that.
Talk about suspisous: I was not trying to counter you. I was simply interested in how you came to believewhat you believe. It would seem to believe all you believe would require a lot of studying.
As far as white men and power, I think some of it is knowing people and other times it isn't. I think (to be honest) that your view of the world is either really naive or overly simplistic. The world is not so cut and dry. Its not always about who you know.
I know a woman who built her company from stratch and does very well for herself because she stuck at it. She didn't even know how to do what she wanted to do. But she learned. She was divorced with one child. Now she owns two houses and her kid is in college. She had no doors to open.
Some have doors, some haven't.
I don't know a lot about coporations, but what I have read, those who sit on them, by and large, worked their ways up them. It isn't just who you know...you do seem to know little about the nature of capitalism...you better make a company money or won't be sitting on any board.
Perhaps, Modes, you have been able to walk in and get any job you wanted. But I would venture that there is not another white guy on this site who would say the same thing. If so, perhaps you should feel a collective guilt about your position in life, for if that is truly the case then you probably have taken several jobs from minorities who deserved them more than you did. But if this is the case, you certainly are not the average white guy and should not expect others to act as you do.
Most white guys have to work their butts off for what they get. Most white guys aren't CEOs, don't control very much and have mortgages, loans, and have families to support. They don't have the time you do to worrying about minorities because they are too busy worrying about their own families. Do you know any real white guys? Any at all? Or perhaps being a minister and the guy "working out Micah 6" kept you from seeing what white guys are truly like. I would suggest that you get out of the classroom and find a white guy who is not among the evil "CEOs" out there and find out what they are like.
Do you honestly believe that white guys on boards conspire to keep minorities off them? And woman? AS if somehow they call each other on the phone each day and plan such things out? Get a grip! But regardless, I think you should form a new group
white ceos. and judging from your posts and that all white guys should be working towards justice, I would guess you don't know any average white guys.
I believe the white guys, at the top, are probably those who best adjusted to capitalism. That is probably why they are at the top.
You sit around and watch it everyday. Is this the best you can do as far as a theory goes? And Don't you have anything better to do? Like feed in a soup kitchen or something?
Could you put me in touch with some of the people you know. I obviously don't know the right people. You truly are a lucky man. You hold all these advantages. I can see where you would want to share them with others. I do find it sad, though, that with all these advantages and all this time you spend on it, you still cannot help the plight of others, given how bad it is. I guess not as many doors are open to you and you don't have as many advantages as you assume."
I consider this self-evident." Funny and convenient. I am not sure which is sadder.
I know you are not putting the responsibility on me. God is. But I would again simply urge you to look at people individually (Instead of caricatures), not as a group (something Jesus surely did), try and find some average white males (not ones you can demonize) and, one more thing. Your way of seeking justice is not the gospel, Modes. The gospel is the gospel. You have done that before. How we live our lives out is our individual calling before God. It is our calling, not everyone else's. Try not to apply how God has called you to everyone else. That is just plain wrong.
Finally, go to the library, find the most conservative book on racism, check it out and read it cover to cover. After you do that, try and find one thing in that book you like. And report back to me. Because when a person believes certain things are "self-evident" and that he has all these advantages and he believes that his version of seeking justice is the gospel's, then he been isolated from the real world a little bit too long. The world is a complex place? Not according to you. Your version is way too simple for me...
| | Back to Top | | |
|
writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/17/2002 8:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Modes, after rereading my last post I thought about deleting it. Then decided not to. However, I am not going to go down the same road with you again, so I shall sign off. Extreme people on both sides (left and right) scare me. Got their signposts all written up, got their demons in a row. Its like cartoons, all laid out in kookey characters, dropping anvils on each other's heads, screaming at each other like some odd freak show. Except in real life people really get hurt. Black people, white people, all just people, not drawn up in any certain way, just people created in God's image. Created in God's image yet colored by sin. When I get into discussions like this, I reflect on the wonderful fact that knowing the person who is the truth doesn't mean I know all the truth. I kind of like it that way, the uncertainty of life, having to rely on Jesus more. I don't know hardly anything. But Jesus does. Jesus does, always will. Makes me glad, you know?
"Race consciousness is a deadly explosive on the tongues of men." Zora Neale Hurston
"Don't you think that the white neo-Nazis and some of these black nationalists ought to get together, to unite so as to save on overhead costs?" Ishmael Reed
Edited by - writerdad on 07/18/2002 01:37:29 AM | | Back to Top | | |
|
Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 7/18/2002 2:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Writerdad,
I think you are correct. There is clearly no good reason for us to continue this conversation. You seem to know more about what I think than I do. You apparently know my sources, who I know, how simple or complex my position is and everything else any white guy in this world would need to know about race.
I am disappointed however. This is about as cordial as you and i have been able to be in with each other in some time. It's too bad your omniscience seems to preclude further discussion rather than enlightening the rest of us on the truth of the matter.
Did you notice that you avoided my questions and simply drilled me for more data that you could through back in my face and call me simplistic with? Oh, yes, and naive. Granted. I seek simplicity, but is distrust it. On race, I am indeed naive, because I benefit from it. I don't have to notice or care about it. But the fact that I do always seems to offend other white guys. That tells me something. Yes, that experience itself teaches me that there's a sore spot here.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/18/2002 3:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Brothers, what happens when you throw a Superball REALLY HARD in a handball court?
(You get hit in the back of the head.)
Children, both of you cut each other a break! | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/18/2002 3:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Forgive me....it just seemed so much like what I saw in my elementary school aged kids....
BACK ON TOPIC:
Many correction officers, and school teachers, have received THIS training: Crisis Prevention Institute, Inc.
www.crisisprevention.com/
quote:
About CPI and the Philosophy of the
Nonviolent Crisis Intervention® Training Program.
After striking a teacher, an angry adolescent threatens to return with a gun. A psychiatric patient smashes her fist through a window. A youth in a residential program brutally attacks another resident. A social worker abruptly terminates a home visit because a client becomes so verbally abusive he fears for his safety.
Crises…those narrow moments in time when irrationality, fear and chaos seem to consume your efforts to provide therapy, education and rehabilitation. Although frightening and at times dangerous, well-managed crisis situations can be opportunities for positive growth.
Opportunities for growth form a cornerstone of Nonviolent Crisis Intervention®, a training program established in 1980 by the Crisis Prevention Institute (CPI) located in Brookfield, Wisconsin. This highly successful training program has benefited more than 4.5 million human service professionals from thousands of hospitals, schools, residential programs, mental health facilities, correctional facilities, businesses and other organizations.
Through participation in this training program, you gain a practical, common sense approach for identifying behaviors that can escalate into full-blown crises. Using these behaviors as a framework, the training program focuses on prevention, stepping you through a series of simple yet powerful nonverbal and verbal techniques that enable you to effectively defuse mounting hostility. Nonviolent Crisis Intervention demonstrates how you can use empathetic listening skills, verbal intervention strategies, and limit-setting techniques to calm hostile and agitated individuals.
If verbal hostility turns to physical aggression, the safe, organized approach to intervention presented in this program shows you when – and how to use physical intervention as a therapeutic tool. As a professional, you benefit from guidelines on forming crisis response teams, breaking up fights, and determining when to use physical intervention. You also learn how to re-establish communication with the individual after the crisis is over, thereby creating the opportunity for constructive change to occur.
The principles of Nonviolent Crisis Intervention have made an impact on the lives of countless human service professionals as well as on the lives of those in their care. The reason these principles have been so widely embraced is that they are a part of a humanistic approach to managing even the most violent behavior. Ensuring the care, welfare, safety and security of an individual in a moment of crisis is a philosophy that works.
This attitude and the specific skills needed to provide for everyone’s safety and well-being will empower you to more effectively go about your important work of teaching, counseling, and healing.
and
quote:
Since 1980, the Crisis Prevention Institute (CPI) has been training professionals in all areas of human service in ways to manage disruptive and assaultive behavior. CPI’s training program, Nonviolent Crisis Intervention®, was and is the foundation of CPI and is considered to be the worldwide standard for the safe management of out-of-control behavior. Over 4.5 million professionals have participated in CPI’s training program and tens of thousands of professionals have utilized CPI’s training resources in order to make working environments safer for staff and the individuals in their care.
Additionally, CPI is able to offer Continuing Education Units through many domestic and international boards and organizations.
What You'll Learn from the Worldwide Leader
This Resource Center was designed to help you learn more about CPI and what makes us different from other training organizations, including information about our world-renowned training programs, resources and much, much more.
Another goal of this Resource Center is for you to learn a little more about ways to stay safe when disruptive behavior has gone too far. Look for training tips and helpful information throughout this site.
Visit often and you’ll start to discover what over 4.5 million professionals already know. There really are ways to defuse situations so that violence is avoided and understanding is achieved…it’s all in the training.
I carry their card in my wallet.
Edited by - (o) on 07/18/2002 08:18:52 AM | | Back to Top | | |
|
BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 7/18/2002 5:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Modes,
Good questions.
Brief responses. Will be back to answer them more fully later today (I worked last night, haven't been to bed yet). Maybe you could respond to what I wrote and to these answers presented here in the meantime.
Q1. Do you mean to say that women and minorities have not been discriminated against in the past in such a way as to stack the deck against them in the present?
Yes and No. I think I need to be clear on what you are asking here. Needs qualification.
Q2. It sounds like you oppose affirmative action. Is it because you don't think the system favors white males?
I oppose affirmative action yes. And so do a number blacks. I oppose it not only because it discriminates against white males who are qualified (as above which is an injustice) it also inflicts this injustice on other groups as well. But also because it incites tribalism among other reasons. Which keeps the revolving door of racism spinning.
Q3. Do you believe that the fact that almost everyone in the most powerful positions in business and government are white men? Is this because we are most qualified?
No. Racism I'm sure has occurred there as well. But I don't really see how this addresses the issue of quotas as unjust laws which is really the issue here.
Also, just for the record? Getting back to my original question for the moment? Based on what I know right now.
1. It was clearly excessive force in what that police officer did to that teenage boy Donovan Chavez or Jackson as I heard him named. Cop clearly lost his temper.
2. The teenage boy was already restrained when the cop punched him in the face.
3. Whatever happened before the restraint with hand-cuffs is a rather moot point.
4. Does the kid deserve a punishment of any kind? Probably so. For what happened before he was restrained. But even here, I understand he has a hearing impairment which is the cause of information not registaring neurologically as quick as it would for hearing people. That will have to be decided on.
5. Cop should be penalized.
6. This incident (so far) does not prove racism with regard to the cop, the Inglewood police dept. Nor does it entail racism for cops or law enforcement agencies in general.
7. Because of what the cop did, it will incite cries of racism throughout the U.S. amongst certain black leaders. The cop gave good reasons for these representatives to do so.
Brandon
"Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War | | Back to Top | | |
|
writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/18/2002 5:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Modes: I am disappointed too. But only that you have not changed since we last dialoged. Truly sad it is (As Yoda might say).
(Couldn't let this one go by): "other white guys." First, its irrelevant to the discussion. Second, whose white? I never mentioned anything about myself, except the arguments I have brought forth. Perhaps you don't believe it, but there are blacks who believe as I do, as well as other minorities. And what would it matter if I was white. Oh yeah, I remember. You have no interest in the opinions of white guys (which gets into the sticky problem of how you listen to yourself, but that is a contradiction I am sure you have dealt with during your down time of watching out for all the evil white guys are doing). I guess this is another one of those assumptions of yours.
Alas, this is my ticket out into the world to oppress ths world will all my evil views. Oh well, may God forgive me. Anyway,while I liked to watch and listen to cartoons, I never dialogue with them. They live in a world way too unreal for me.
Edited by - writerdad on 07/18/2002 11:03:02 AM | | Back to Top | | |
|
writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/18/2002 5:57 AM (GMT -6) | | (o): Highly dangerous views should be labelled as such. People who feel that their views are "self-evident," tend to live in a vacuam and have no true way of knowing what is right or wrong, because they become their own standard. Hence I make no apologies for my language or tone. Your post is irrevelant and childish. Apparently, you feel some need to keep some sort of peace. YOUR post is elementary and I don't appreciate it.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/18/2002 6:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Harold.
I like you.
Both you and Modes need to let the ball bounce smaller and smaller and die down a bit. You are BOTH so wonderful on this board. But you are also both leaving your best game.
No, I am not "keeping the peace." That is YOUR job. Not mine.
Its been almost a year now of knowing your posts. And your posts in the last few weeks have been some of the most valuable.
Keep keeping folks on their toes. You have an indispensible place here.!!! (3) Keep up the good work.
Edited by - (o) on 07/18/2002 11:26:06 AM | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/18/2002 6:25 AM (GMT -6) | | | BTW -- Harold, I'm not suggesting at all that either of you stop posting. | | Back to Top | | |
|
geej
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 7/19/2002 6:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon
I went through part of the police training program (until I realized I could die doing the job) and also have...had a cop (deputy chief)in my family and my mom was a social worker who worked with cops (sex crimes) on an almost daily basis. From this education, formal and informal, I have learned many things.
1. If the kid had cuffs on, there are no excuses for the cops to have put their hands on him for any other reason than preventing him from harming himself. We were told point blank, if you put your hands on a suspect, you'd better make sure you do it BEFORE he/she has been restrained. If the officer has not followed department protocols and policies he/she should suffer the consequences.
2. Some cases that have been billed as "clear cut" screw ups or racist have been anything but. IE: a few years ago, an infant was murdered by a mother in another state. This family used to live in Minnesota. A former foster parent came forward and said the county had significant evidence that the mother should never get custody of the kid. Fact: the foster parent had previously been investigated for child abuse and was fired from the county; she had NEVER provided evidence that would assist the county in gaining permanent custody of this child. Regard the media with extreme caution and ALWAYS consider the motivating factors and biases of those interviewd and those doing the interviewing.
3. Knowing the cops I do, I know that if there were any thoughts that an officer was motivated by racist tendencies, they would be in serious trouble (at least in the department with which I am most familiar). I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most cops are not racist and most likely see something other than race when they decide to pull someone over. Having said that, a former co-worker and dear friend who happens to be a male African American, used to get pulled over in a specific suburban city on a regular basis - for no reason other than possibly driving a crappy car --- highly suspicious. Racism does happen but I do not believe it to be the primary driving force in law enforcement in general. Most officers do not like looking bad and they do not like their department being dragged through the mud because of the actions of some incompetent jerk; many are just as happy to see the few idiots go down as we are.
Brandon, I really wish I could see the clip but I've been busy showing my dogs and my uncle (the cop in fact) just died this week and I haven't seen ANY news for quite some time.
GJ
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Terry_Baxter
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 7/19/2002 8:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Don't want to get involved in the race discussion, especially as this one has taken a turn that I consider more than unsavory.
I will mention that the story that the police officer is giving in pleading Innocent to the charge of brutality is believable:
The suspect was aggressive and physically resisting the entire time. Then, to actually elicit the punch, he grabbed the officer's testicles while he was pushed over the car even though he was handcuffed.
Review the tape and it is clearly plausible. Let me tell you, cop or not, handcuffed or not, black or not, if the man did this to me I would punch him in the face to make him let go.
Now... do I think the officer's story is true? No, although I'm not on the jury. If his jury is white, they'll probably believe it and let him go.
However, to say "there's no excuse for punching him" to me is clearly mushy-headed.
Finally, if I were in Boyd's church... and he cared to dialog with me there or on this board, I'd love to explore a trend with him. I've noticed several arguments of his on this board that seem to have evolved from a Liberal (note the capital "L") ideology rather than a carefully reasoned or biblical view.
No biggie. Doc's main gigs are theology and pastoring. I would expect a pastor (especialy in a non-denominational church) and academic to hold some of those views and rarely to be challenged in them.
But for writerdad: I see Boyd post such things as responses, not as essays. He's not a sociologist and probably doesn't spend much time each day listening to thoughtful political analysis (correct me if you'd like, Doc.). So if we all are reading his brief 'knee jerk' responses as the equivalent of his summations of Bonhoffer, we'll be disappointed, and occasionally astounded at their shallowness. They aren't as well reasoned--or at least--as well supported as some of the topics more directly related to his expertise. And, he rarely comes back to defend them unless someone questions him in an almost obsequious way (curious that).
Regardless, even if you respect Boyd tremendously (as I do) you don't have to give equal weight to every post here or feel too nervous that you're missing Something Obvious to Christians Everywhere if you disagree with him.
Now back to your regularly scheduled 12 round bout between writerdad and modes...
Terry
"Be God's"
| | Back to Top | | |
|
BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 7/20/2002 4:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Terry,
I will respond to just the first part about the cop. I don't want to discuss Boyd or whether he comes from a big "L" liberal. That matters neither here nor there to me. There are left leaning Christians as far as their politics go. Boyd might say of you that he might notice that you come from a big "C" conservative position and that you are moved more by your politcal ideology than a reasoned biblical view as well. I really don't even care to argue this point. Still, alot Christians align Jesus teaching with Republican ideology. That is not all that negative. That is, that some positions Christians on the Right hold to would probably more accurately aligned with Christ's teaching, at least at present. The same could be said for some of the Christian left.
What really matters though is how valid and legit Boyd's or Modes argument is. What it's weaknesses are and what it's strenghts are. They can look at mine as well. Maybe we can come up with a consensus. Not meaning that we agree on every detailed point, but generally we agree with some basics. Then again, maybe we can't. Maybe we will not be able to agree on this issue...ever. Still, I should be motivated by love toward those whom I disagree with and so should Boyd and Modes. I guess I will just take Modes at his words that Boyd and himself have looked at the issue and they know their position which is to say that they think they have legitmate reasons for coming to the conclusions that they do.
Also, I have to agree with Daddy that the Bible does not give us detail blueprint for how to deal with racism or discrimination or even specific political stradegies such as quotas. However, I will agree with one of my favorite Christian political thinkers Richard Mouw, President of Fuller Theological Seminary that in order to deal with cultural issues, not only is the Bible to be our primary authority, but if we are going to address the culture we will need to know the "cultural language." In other words, if I am going to speak about racism, I need to know not just what the Bible says (if anything at all), but also, what the present data are surrounding this social ill, i.e., stats, majority/minority thoughts and feelings, etc.
Concerning my position on Donovan Chavez. I don't think anyone here doubts what is "clearly plausible." In that case then, any number of scenarios could be clearly plausible.
Being that there was a lot of commotion going on then, Donovan could have accidently hit the officer in the "you know where."  The cop could have thought this was deliberate and pounded him in the face. If it is true that Donovan has some sort of hearing impairment or is mentally challenged in some way, this would be a plausible scenario as well. But either way, me thinks when Donovan is restrained? All they need to do is grab his hand and remove it from the officer's genitals.
I still think this was excessive. A punch in the face for that! "Hey buddy, you grabbed my ha-ha's!"   (even though you are restrained and possibly, hearing and mentally challenged) BAM!" I know that this is what you would want to do. And maybe this is what the officer wanted to do. But what is suppose to set officers apart from the rest of us in situations like this, is that they have training. I think I will side with geej on this one.
Lastly, Modes, I was typing up a fuller response to your questions. The 'puter froze (more than once on this particular one). I lost the info. I was Mmmm...!! I wanted to smash the thing. I hate when that happens. I'm still a little perturbed. I'll get back to it later today or tmw. I will prevail!
Brandon
"Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War
Edited by - BBBCanada on 07/20/2002 09:51:08 AM | | Back to Top | | |
|
Terry_Baxter
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 7/20/2002 6:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon,
Don't want to hijack the thread, but some of this is relevant to it.
I didn't say Boyd was coming from the left. I refered to Liberalism as ideology, not the political left in America. They're quite different things.
I'd be surprised if people identified my posts as right-leaning, but people can read in to anything. Still, I agree with you that the Right and Left both have areas where they're closer to biblical Christianity.
And yes, I agree that the strength of the argument is paramount. That was precisly my point. On non-heavy-theological issues, Boyd often does "drive-by postings," meant (I think) to be evocative or thought provoking. If I had to guess, I'd say he was one of those teachers who made unusual or provocative statements in class to initiate class discussions.
Thus, my 'advice', such as it was to writerdad, was not to get too engaged in shadowboxing with those drive-by posts. Without the warrants and backing for the claims, it's frustrating to engage them.
But then there are people who rush to support those claims, because he's Doc, and these are his boards. . .
And in the end (look at any number of threads) after people clarify their postions and put the effort in to seeing what logic and evidence supports their beliefs, they are much closer than they thought at step 1 when everyone was in defense mode.
I'm not sure you want a response on the other stuff, so I'll end here.
Regards,
Terry
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 7/20/2002 7:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Terry is correct that neither I nor doc is a sociologist. But we do feel that God has called us to reconciliation and this church will cast that vision and pursue it. Terry is also correct that these statements here are often summary in form and (perhaps to your surprise) represent a much larger pool of ideas and or convictions based on a variety of evidence and supporting aruments. Much of which is solidly biblical. Presented summarily (principly the conclusions), they are not complete as they stand and would be easy to dismiss and punch holes in. No denying this. What is troublesome is that people seem to have little interest in discussing this stuff in a fruitful manner. Let us take one issue at a time and play it out a bit. Rather than just stating our own opinion and ignoring the rest.
I'll start:
Do people here generally think that America is a racialized society? By this I mean, we as a people recognize race as a valid distinction and it makes a difference what race you are when it comes to what the culture expects from you. Even if you deny the above sentence is true, would you grant that the people with power and the best access to resources are most likely to extend these priviledges to others like themselves or others who are different than themselves by default? Do you think that the media (not just the news, but more specifically, the role casting that goes on in terms of what children are exposed to regarding societies expectations of them and people who look like them) generally helps or hurts the issue of race?
And as a last but perhaps most important question: does racism have to be deliberate and intentional in order to priviledge one group of people over another? And a variation on that question: is it principly a problem about individuals (members of hate groups) or about social structures and systems (redlining districts that are racially homogenous but not white would be a systems example. Consistently using minority voices for shady, devious, or subhuman characters and white voices for idealized human characters and the good guys in cartoons. Just go watch them and see for yourself. Rent some Disney animation movies and see what you find.)?
I am just curious who thinks there even is a race problem in the US.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
|
writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/20/2002 8:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Terry: a bit of a clarification. Whether or not Doc is a "driveby" teacher, he is responsible for the words he posts. He is a minister of the gospel by profession and, as such, is held to a higher standard by the world because of his profession. Because he is a representative of Christians to the world. He is also held to a higher standard biblically because he is a teacher. As such he should guard his words.
The statement he made was hypocritical, given his other posts about judgment. And, as geej showed, there could be reasons why the cop acted as he did, which casts Doc's words in an even harsher light. Regardless, if they were intended as simply venting, why didn't Doc simply jump in and admit as such. His silence speaks volumes.
You question my respect of Doc. But it is my respect for Doc that makes me post. I have the upmost regard for him and his writings have greatly influenced my thinking. As such, it is extremely disappointing to have him treat such a subject with rhetoric rather than truly addressing the topic. I am also disappointed that those on this post let something so important slip by. We are called by the bible to hold each other accountable. As such we should be willing to correct as well as praise. But as is seen on this board any type of "negativity" is seen as "unloving" or "devisive." Makes you honestly wonder what some would think of Paul if he wasn't an apostle.
Doc's name is all over this site. For better or worse, how he acts on this sight is what people will think of it. That is his responsibility. I only hope he lives up to it.
Edited by - writerdad on 07/20/2002 1:41:28 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/20/2002 8:37 AM (GMT -6) | | How about a poll, who else thinks that Disney movies are representive of life? Modes, do YOU recognize that there is a fundamental difference between the Disney movies made in the 30s, fortys and fifties and now? For instance, the hero of "Mulan" is a girl who is Japanese? Of "Pococahotas (sorry about the mispelling)? An Indian woman. Beauty and the Beast? A woman. Lilo and Stitch? An alien and a Hawaiian girl. One could easily make a comparsion about society in general and Disney's movies, if one were inclined to do so (as one could also do with baseball, as Ken Burns did). But the question could also be put, which set of movies do you live in, the 50s or the 2000s...
Larry Elder's tells an interesting story in his book "The Ten Things YOu Can's Say In America (Chapter one is Blacks Are More Racist Than Whites...Chapter Two is White Condescension Is As Bad AS Black Racism...I'll send you a copy, if you would like Modes)
"In high school, my class read a poem:
While riding in old Baltimore, so small and full of glee,
I sawe a young Baltimorean keep a-lookin' straight at me.
Now, I was young and very small, and he was no whit bigger
And so I smiled, but he poked out his tongue and called me "nigger."
I saw the whole of Baltimore from May until September,
Of all the things that happened there, that's all that I remember.
The teacher talked about the permenant damage done to this little boy's psyche. The permanant stain of racism. The denial of the little boy's dignity. The boy, said the teacher, will never be the same. By the time the bell sounded, everybody left angry.
I went home and repeated the poem to my mom. When I came to the last stanza: "Of all the things that happened there, that's all I can remember," she took a spoon out of the pot she was stirring, rapped it on the side, turned to me and said, "Larry, its too bad he let that spoil his vacation."
We all get hurt, tramatised by life. As soon as you start saying that something else is responsible for your situation, that you can do nothing about it, you lose hope. Paul spent the majority of his life in prison, put there by a bigotted, racist society that hated Christians. He probably lost most of his opportunities to build a great tent business and to get ahead, to build wealth. Yet he had more joy than anyone I know.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Terry_Baxter
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 7/20/2002 8:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Dang it Modes! I really need to be stenciling planes and trucks in the baby's room.
Oh well.
Modes: What is troublesome is that people seem to have little interest in discussing this stuff in a fruitful manner. Let us take one issue at a time and play it out a bit. Rather than just stating our own opinion and ignoring the rest.
Terry: Let us reason together? Sounds great. I'll play. If writerdad objects to this direction, I'll like to suggest in advance we move to a different thread since I don't want to offend him.
Modes: Do people here generally think that America is a racialized society? By this I mean, we as a people recognize race as a valid distinction and it makes a difference what race you are when it comes to what the culture expects from you.
Terry: Absolutely. It's genderized and 'age-ized' too, among other problems (height-ized, beauty-ized).
Modes: Even if you deny [racialization], would you grant that the people with power and the best access to resources are most likely to extend these priviledges to others like themselves or others who are different than themselves by default?
Terry: "Power" and "access to resources" could stand to be defined. Not to jump too far ahead, but I think blacks have huge cultural power in American society. When you see white yuppies saying "wassuuuuup" to each other, that indicates a kind of power. For now, I'll assume you're coming from an essentially Marxist view of power, and that access to resources is roughly the equivalent of 'means of production.' Is that fair?
To more directly address your question, to whom do the powerful (presumably whites) extend their power and resources? By and large, to those who are like them. However, that could mean: they're both golfers, they're both Mormons, they're both Mac users, they both value hard work or (God help them) both like Michael Bolton music. It's the phenomenon of IDENTIFICATION bradley.bradley.edu/~ell/burke.html
Modes: Do you think that the media [...] generally helps or hurts the issue of race?
Terry: Oh sure, ask the simple questions. The question is really too big for me to address in a coherent manner, given that volumes of books are written in this area. As a start, can you define "the issue of race?" If I can take a guess at your meaning:
Do the media enforce gender/racial stereotyping? Yes
Do they enforce "negative" (socially maladaptive) sterotyping for these groups? Yes, as well as positive stereotyping.
Is stereotyping necessarily a bad thing? Not really.
Although this is something of a non-sequitor, let me reveal some of my radical-leftist thnking. I'm not a pacifist as many on this board seem to be. In fact, I think the power of the Underclass to rise up in demonstration and violence is a grossly undervalued vehicle for social change. Riots and revolutions get results, done correctly. But we've only had insipid riots recently (the Rodney King-motivated riots were only vaguely about social change and mostly about greed).
So, if blacks are frequently portrayed as violent, gun-toting thugs, this can be a source of power for them. The cop that struck Chavez may go to jail precisely to prevent another riot, for instance, not because of the merits of his case. To be sure, the act has received more attention because of the riots in the past. Of course, the Myth of Black Violence may also lead some police officers to respond to them more forcefully, so a stereotype can cut both ways.
Something else on this issue. African Americans aren't portrayed as often as Anglos on TV. An arguable portion of these portrayals are as "shady, devious, or criminal people." However, the vast majority of TV representations of criminals, miscreants, wife beaters, rapists, corrupt politicians judges and lawyers, and used car salesmen are white, simply because anglos are probably (at a guess) 66% - 75% of the images on American television.
So, if I see 20 images of blacks, and 5 are unsavory, and I see 200 representations of whites and 50 are unsavory, which has a bigger impact on society or children's impressions? Does that change if the "bad-to-good" ration of black images raises to 10 out of 20? True, half of the blacks I see are bad, but I'm still seeing a higher overall quantity of bad whites. (And, by the way, images of Christians are about 95% bad, images of women are probably 75% good, if you'll allow me to use such unscientific terms as 'bad and good'.)
Finally (on this issue) minorities or subaltern groups often feel empowered by being subversive of the values of the majority. "Keepin it real" and not giving in to the white power structures is celebrated in minority comedy, music and in the broader sub-culture. Is it the MEDIA FORCING representations on an unwilling populace, or are these antagonistic expressions trying to alter the cultural hegemony? (It's hard for me to think about these issues without using such pompous terminology; please excuse it. With more time, I'd unpack those terms.)
Just so you know, media effects on society is a topic I've studied a fair amount, so I'll have a hard time giving sound-bite answers to it.
Modes: [If racism is inherent to the system how does that change our approach to the problem?]
Terry: Is evil systemic or individual? Yes. Is greed/lust/pride a personally motivated/individual issue or a social one? Yes. And so with racism.
But I think writerdad's point might be this: racism isn't (a) as bad as you suggest, (b) as prevalent as you suggest, (c) of the nature you suggest, or (d) as worthy of sweeping solutions as you suggest. I gather this from his approving citation of D'Souza who basically argues all of the above. I'll reveal some of my right-ist thinking and say I agree with D'Souza on the whole, and find his arguments well reasoned and well supported.
Ok, off to paint now!
Terry
"Be God's"
Edited by - Terry_Baxter on 07/20/2002 1:41:17 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
Terry_Baxter
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187
| Posted 7/20/2002 8:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Sorry writerdad, I missed your post.
This is *really* my last post now.
First, it's interesting that I managed to irritate both sides of this debate with the same post.
Second, I don't see it as your role to hold Boyd accountable on these boards. I think you can engage him, if he chooses to respond. Otherwise, I think you might be less frustrated if you didn't put energy in to correcting a briefly constructed statement. But, it's your choice, obviously, and most people resent unsolicited advice, so please excuse me for offering it.
quote:
You question my respect of Doc.
Not at all. Just the opposite in fact. I suggested that too much respect can lead you to treat his brief post on Chavez with the same weight as _Satan and the Problem of Evil_. It's not fair to him and foolybear for you. I personally hope he's spending the majority of his time writing and shepherding his flock.
quote:
As such, it is extremely disappointing to have him treat such a subject with rhetoric rather than truly addressing the topic. I am also disappointed that those on this post let something so important slip by.
Grrrr. Don't defame rhetoric!  But seriously, people here will defend him since the people here have been blessed by his words and work. I think you'd have more success challenging the logic and claims and just leaving Doc's name out of it. Then it's not about personality, but about reasoning together.
Anyway, peace to you, as I'm off to paint.
Terry
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 7/20/2002 10:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Terry, I appreciate your response.
We are agreed then on the fact that racism manifests both in individuals but also in systems. Given this, few resist the idea that individual racism should be confronted and challenged. Why so much resistance to this transformative position toward systems?
Writerdad:
Are you suggesting that because something has improved we should give up on continuing its improvement until it is completed? Disney may have been worse, but it could certainly be better. You seem quite concerned with Greg's responsibility. Disney has much more power and influence. Especially on the development of self-identity for children regardless of race and class. What does it say to a mexican child when the only hispanic voices discernable are the voices of dogs? Usually small yippy ones. What does it say to a black kid to hear black voices mostly when it is given to an evil character or perhaps to apes, chimps, etc. Do you think this matters in a child's development? Just watch lion king or Tarzan and think our yourself as a minority child.
Of course, systemic racism is subtle, does this mean we should ignore it?
I am consistently baffled and discouraged at how much resistance I encounter when it comes to these sorts of issues. I really wish I understood the real problem that cause people to be so set against justice on a large scale. Justice includes fair access to resources (though I am not really a Marxist) and fair and accurate representation in the media doesn't it?
Terry: as far as black power images, I agree that riots can produce results, but they are also quite localized. Slums develop where they do because of the decisions of the white men who lay out the schemes for real estate and housing projects. Do you really think that all people have equal access to a good education? I mean, if we are going to tell people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, then aren't we assuming that all people have access to a decent education and job resources? Do you think this is reality?
I know many school teachers who work in the city (St. Paul and Mpls in particular) and they tell me that it is a regular practice to assume that black kids have learning disabilities so you shouldn't expect much from them, asian kids will be good at math so you should put them on the fast track in that area, and the white kids are the normal ones that the system was designed for, so they are self sorting. The Native Americans will be lazy so don't expect much, etc. Do you think that these biases will enable equal learning opportunities for these various children? Of course, it is far more complicated than that, but still these are some pretty important variables. We often assume equal opportunity for education, but is that really true? Corruption of just these variables alone is enough to disempower many minority children.
Some friends of ours have adopted black children in addition to having their own and they have the following problem: their biological child needs help and should be in a special ed class but the school isn't cooperating, their black child is doing fine but they can't get him OUT of the special ed program. It's no joke. Are all these teachers hateful race mongers? No. But is the system really corrupted and perpetuating the problem of disempowering "minorities"? Yes.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
|
writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 7/20/2002 7:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Modes: I am not saying things cannot improve, but the fact that they have to me, suggests the racism of previous years is not what it was, which should be cause for optimism. Of course we should always be working towards bettering society.
I do not hold Disney to the same standards. Greg is a Christian minister. Disney is not a Christian company (if there is such a thing). It is not a question of power but of integrity. I do not see everything in terms of power.
As far as voicing yippy dogs, lions, etc. it isn't only the company but the actor as well who is responsible. How can you pass judgment on a company and not hold the individual responsible as well. For instance, Eddie Murphy did the donkey in Shreik (I thought he was very funny, but that was beside the point). And a lot of critics thought it was racial stereotyping and criticised the company. Yet no one critised Eddie Murphy. Why not? Is he not also responsible? It reminds of woman who critise Sports Illustrated for its swimsuit issue. If women wouldn't pose for it there would be no swimsuit issue. I recognize the need to change such patterns, but it shouldn't just be on the company. Many black, Hispanic actors, are taking the jobs. To argued that that is only job they could get is beside the point. Those within the minority community should take responsibility for their own actions if they want to stop the stereotypes. But, in many cases, money is the bottem line. For everyone.
Finally, Terry, I don't consider it my role. I consider it everyone's.
Modes, I think Disney has a lot of power in self-identity if a parent let's them. They certainly don't in our house, simply because my wife and I control what our children watch. For instance, my wife and I do not let our girls (and our son, but esprecially my girls) watch The Little Mermaid, because we don't like the view it portrays that all a girl needs is a man and all her problems will be solved. On the other hand, we do let them watch Beauty and The Beast because we feel that is a positive model, although we view all movies and if there is a questionable scene we discuss with them.
I am not discounting racism, but at the same time, parents need to take responsibility for what their children see.
Edited by - writerdad on 07/21/2002 12:15:17 AM | | Back to Top | | |
|
BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 7/22/2002 3:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Guy's, gal's, gents and ladies, boys and girls, black, white, asian, aboriginal, etc, etc, etc.
Thanks for your discussion so far. Good stuff. Good stuff Terry. Especially liked your stats on American Television. Alot of whites are made to look bad on black sitcoms, they look like bumbling fools. And most white men portrayed on t.v. drama's are corrupt CEO's of major corporations. The stereotype indeed, may run both ways.
Gotta question for ya Terry. When you say "Liberalism as ideology, not the political left in America." I've always thought that they meant the same. However, there are Christians who fall to the left but are not liberal in their ideology. That is, they end up politically on the left, but their philosophy is not grounded in "radical individualism" or other such liberal notions. This is what you mean, am I correct?
Modes asked:
quote:
We are agreed then on the fact that racism manifests both in individuals but also in systems. Given this, few resist the idea that individual racism should be confronted and challenged. Why so much resistance to this transformative position toward systems?
I think part of the resistance toward systems is that some have pointed out the inconsistency, that is, it (the system) goes in the opposite way it is intended to go, i.e. quotas turned out as "preferential treatment" for group entitlement.
Also some do recognize that minorities in school systems are hurt by the system. That is not the issue. The issue is recognizing that if this is indeed the case, in what direction do we take the system i.e. vouchers or no vouchers? I thought it was neat to see a black democrat working for vouchers in her district on 20/20 or Dateline last week which I believe are healthy for minorities.
Just a quick response to some things raised. Back later today to ask one very poignant question.
Brandon
"Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War | | Back to Top | | |
| 68 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 12:48 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|