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wise seeker
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 11
| Posted 12/13/2002 5:12 AM (GMT -6) |   | (CNSNews.com) - A California-based Christian marketing research company says non-Christians in the United States view evangelical Christians "somewhat more kindly than prostitutes, but with less affection than lesbians and lawyers."
The BRG, which analyzes cultural trends in Christianity, asked non-Christian respondents to rank and compare their impressions of evangelicals against eleven categories of people, including military officers, ministers, born-again Christians, Democrats, Republicans, real-estate agents, movie and TV performers, lawyers, lesbians and prostitutes.
While evangelicals received favorable marks from 22-percent of the non-Christians polled, Barna noted that they received only a 5-percent higher public approval rating than prostitutes did. He said almost 23-percent of respondents look more favorably upon lesbians and lawyers than they do on evangelicals.
"This is most likely a result of the thrashing evangelicals receive in the media," Barna said. "It seems millions of non-Christians have negative impressions of evangelicals, even though they cannot define what an evangelical is, accurately identify the perspectives of the group or identify even a handful of people they know personally who are evangelicals."
BRG's most recent profile of the American evangelical population reveals that there are approximately 15 to 20 million evangelical adults nationwide.
BRG data also shows that four out of five evangelicals are white and 58-percent are affiliated with the Republican Party. Additionally, 59-percent of evangelicals describe their political and social ideologies as "mostly conservative" compared to 4-percent who identify themselves as liberals.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=\Culture\archive\200212\CUL20021213b.html
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/webextra/bfa/index.html
http://www.christiannews.0catch.com/bfa.htm
http://sptimes.com/News2/lyons/default.html
http://www.courttv.com/trials/lyons/061899_ctv.html
http://www.christiannews.0catch.com/lyons.htm
http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/pentecostal/godfraud.html
http://www.christiannews.0catch.com/strader.htm
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 12/13/2002 6:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Mr. Seeker, I don’t understand what the point of this study is. Are evangelicals in some kind of popularity contest with non-evangelicals? Is this supposed to motivate evangelicals to work on their image?
I was disappointed in the conclusions Barna drew from these statistics. He concluded that the way evangelicals are perceived is a result of “thrashing” in the media and the ignorance of the general population. Do evangelicals themselves have anything to do with the way others perceive them?
I was actually surprised that evangelicals scored as high as they did. Jesus would be happy to rank alongside prostitutes and lawyers.
Electra
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8 | | Back to Top | | |
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wise seeker
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 11
| Posted 12/13/2002 7:08 AM (GMT -6) | | If you would check the websites that I posted you would see that in different parts of the South there have been real scandals and exposure of evangelical hypocrisy. They are no longer popular or a poltical force. The article proves it!
Jerry Falwell once stated that 'there was 100 million evangelicals in America' and implied they would change the political landscape. There might be 100 million conservatives who enabled Bush to win the last elections but there are only about 20 million evangelicals.
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 12/13/2002 7:14 AM (GMT -6) | | OK.…? Sorry, I still don’t get your point. Electra
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8 | | Back to Top | | |
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wise seeker
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 11
| Posted 12/13/2002 8:31 AM (GMT -6) | | The point is either Jerry Falwell lied and there were never 100 million evangelicals in United States or we lost 80 million evangelicals who became disillusioned with the evangelicals doctrines and hypocrisy as displayed by a prominent Evangelical such as Dr. Henry J. Lyons, Jim Bakker, Ned Graham?
Rev. Henry Lyons was a man called by others as Rev. Hanky-Panky who was a personal friend of Bill Clinton. A man who sought spiritual solace in the bathtub smoking marijuana after a hard day of playing patty-cake with Nigerian dictators and the financial stewardship of the NBC including secret bank accounts, forged signatures, missing files and hushed-up lobbying work on behalf of those wacky, zany Nigerian scamps.
A man who made a $200,000 rip-off of an Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith donation, which found its way into his pockets instead of burned out Baptist churches where it was originally intended. A man whose whole hand picked board of the National Baptist Convention refused to see the facts about Lyons and forgave him unanimously and unilaterally. So that they could also be forgiven if caught doing the same thing in the pattern of President Oral Roberts who forgave Jim Bakker for what was not forgivable. Robbing and raping the sheep is not forgivable.
Lyons had been the focus of state and federal criminal investigations since the summer of 1997 when his wife set fire to a $700,000 waterfront house he owned on Tierra Verde with a former convention employee, a convicted embezzler and his alleged lover. The fire triggered revelations about secret bank accounts and large commissions on convention business deals and deductions concerning his total gross salary.
Billy Graham has raised up two sons Ned and Franklin who are as deceitful as their father. Ned Graham, the son of Billy Graham, Southern Baptist minister, president East Gates International, a group that distributes Bibles in China told Christianity Today in an interview that he had abused alcohol and spent an "inappropriate amount of time" with two women on his staff.
Grace Community Church, Southern Baptist Convention, in Auburn, Washington--which counted Ned Graham, his wife, and their two sons as members established the fact that Ned Graham was an adulterer, alcoholic, wife abuser, and drug user and revoked Graham's ministerial credentials. It directed Graham to stop using the title reverend.
Yet in a style reminiscent of Jimmy Swaggart, who refused to be defrocked by the Assembly of God denomination, Ned Graham left that congregation for another church.
Most of the staff and board members of East Gates International resigned amid controversies. East Gates, in Sumner, Wash., withdrew its membership in the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability after Ned replaced the board members with his sister Ruth Graham McIntyre, brother-in-law Stephan Tchividjian, and business leader Peter Lowe.
Graham's sister Gigi Tchividjian has joined the office staff and Ned Graham continues as East Gates president. The ECFA the self-policing organization Billy Graham helped start requires that a majority of board members not be related by blood or marriage, which is no longer the case for East Gates.
A December East Gates fund-raising letter included a note from his father saying that "Ruth and I are proud of and grateful to God for our son Ned." East Gates has distributed 2 million Bibles to Christians in China, Billy Graham said, encouraging Christians to "back this unique and effective ministry."
It is interesting to see the most famous "evangelist" (some say) not being able to educate his children, especially Ned. At the same time, having a bunch of so-called Christians following the leadership of such wreckless person.
Franklin Graham wears jeans, boots, denim shirt, and leather jacket. He was a teen rebel who drank, smoked, fought, and led police on high-speed chases. He was kicked out of LeTourneau College. He used to be a rebel and a 'bum' got religion and become more sophisticated and formed "the Samaritan's Purse' so that he can fly around the country and charge things to his non-profit corporation. As a result his ministry, Samaritan's Purse, had a run-in with the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. The ECFA suspended Samaritan's Purse while it looked into Franklin's (Graham) compensation and use of the company plane
Although Billy Graham encourages religious leaders to be open about their salaries and publish their finances none of the Grahams reveal their total compensation nor release their personal income tax as President Bush does and former President Clinton has done. It's the law of the land that all non profit chairman of corporations must reveal their total salary and that Billy, Ned and Franklin do not speak volumes of their hypocrisy.
President Bill Clinton would make a great evangelist, Billy Graham told U.S. News & World Report in a interview. Graham said he was impressed with Clinton's charisma and 'with some of the things he believes. ... From a biblical point of view, we should be headed in the direction of goodness and righteousness, away from crime and immorality,' Graham said, 'and towards one's neighbors who are in need. I'm encouraged by the emphasis President Clinton (a Southern Baptist) and Hillary are putting on that.'
It's a fact that Christianity Today founded by Billy Graham did not report immediately on one of its own pastors Ollin Collins Senior Pastor of Harvest Baptist Church in Fort Worth, and Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary's board chairman. A man who resigned amid sexual misconducts allegations when he was accused of having sexual relationships with two women who sought counseling.
But it did report about the adultery of a black man and a National Baptist but not about the adultery of a white man and Southern Baptist. An adultery that was more hideous and gross because Collins raped unsuspecting trusting women, while Lyons adulterous relationships were consensual. It has been said that Lyons will go down in the history books as "Hugh Hefner of the New Testament." http://headlines.yahoo.com/Full_Coverage/US/Henry_Lyons
Now concerning the fallen hero, the church had suspended Pastor Collins with pay pending an investigation. He resigned from his board position one day after a story in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram reported the women's allegations and their intent to sue. Southwestern is the world's largest evangelical seminary, with 3,000 students on eight campuses.
But of course neither the Seminary nor the Church did anything for the real female victims but they did help and console the aggressor? Just like Billy Graham stated about Bill Clinton "I forgive him . . . because I know the frailty of human nature, and especially a strong, vigorous young man like he is. "He has such a tremendous personality that I think the ladies just go wild over him." In other words it was the fault of the victims not the victimizer?
They are all hypocrites and thieves their lack of accountability by their CEO's proves it. They are nothing but crooks and con artists and their smooth words do not change this fact! Otherwise hypocritical Baptist leader who preach integrity to others would not hide their salaries but be honest and state the "total compensation" of their five top employees, including Billy and Franklin Graham!
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 12/13/2002 3:18 PM (GMT -6) | | I think you’ll find that the evangelicals in this discussion don’t pay much attention to Jerry Falwell and company. I’m curious, what has motivated you to invest so much time and energy in digging up dirt on Billy Graham? Electra
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8 | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/13/2002 6:36 PM (GMT -6) | | With Electra, I have little interest in defending evangelicalism. I don't attribute our low public reputation to "media thrashing" but to a general tendency toward self-serving judgmentalism, which of course leads to instances of hypocrisy.
Rank religious hypocrisy also greatly aggravates me. At the same time, the judgment that evangelical leaders are "nothing but crooks and con artists and their smooth words do not change this fact!" strikes me as unwarranted -- even if its directed specifically at the people wise seeker sites. How could one know THAT? This seems to be as biased and as judgmental as anything some conservative religious folk might throw out against "sinners."
Like any grouping of human beings, you will find all sorts of different kinds of people within "evangelicalism." Some are perhaps very bad, but others are very ethical and sincere.
Billy Graham, in particular, has always struck me as noble. He's certainly not perfect -- but he's never presented himself as such, which is noble. He HAS disclosed his personal income, numerous times. (last I heard it was about $70,000 a year).
The large group impression evangelicals make on the culture is interesting and significant. The personal details of individuals failures is neither, in my opinion.
Blessings
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/14/2002 9:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Apparently, for "wise seeker," to be human is simply unacceptable. As a parent, I recognize that, regardless of how well I raise my kids they still can rebel. Since "wise seeker" has not shown any evidence that Billy Graham was a bad parent, I would give him the benefit of the doubt. From my own prespective as a sinner, I am hesitant to cast stones, nor am I willing to judge the heart of people like Franklin Graham and why they "got religion." But, then again, I am one who, like Franklin Graham," sometimes smokes, wears jeans so I guess we all know which side of the pearly gates I am on. Finally, how is Billy Graham deceitful?
By the way, sin is sin, regardless of whether or not it is consensual.
Edited by - honorman on 12/14/2002 2:48:15 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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shell
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 12/14/2002 11:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Wise Seeker. Have you been through a negative evangelical experience that has tainted your view of all evangelicals? There is plenty going on in evangelical circles to disappoint just about everyone.
Growing up in a particular A/G church I learned how I didn't want to be...as a thirteen-16 year old I hated the way my youth pastor and pastor treated their wives and women in ministry...I wanted to be a rebel because in my eyes they were all hypocrites and why would I want to be like any of them. I didn't experience God for myself at that time...I just saw him through the crap I saw going on in the church. The church ended up in an ugly split...and as an older teenager decided to strike out on my own and find my own church. I ended up at well known A/G church and had an entirely different and healing experience. I found my pastor to be a man of honesty, and integrity. He never preached about offerings or money because it turned him off so badly. He treated his wife well, and had women serving on the board. My youth pastor was a REAL person, honest with himself and others. I am no longer in the A/G, but I am thankful that I had that experience so that I know that all churches, really all areas of life have their bad apples. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.
As far as the Graham family goes...I see the fruit in their ministry. I know nothing about Ned Graham...but Billy Graham saying something on behalf of his son? Well don't all parents do that? Maybe he has made mistakes..haven't we all? I heard Franklin Graham on the radio the other day giving a wonderful heartfelt message about those suffering with AIDS. He encouraged us to not look at someone with AIDS and ask what sinful act brought them to where they are...but instead look at them with the love of Jesus, with His compassion. Reach out and offer love, support, and the healing love of Jesus. We all can be deceitful in the depths of our heart, but I too believe we should hope and believe the best about people unless they truly show otherwise, and then leave it between them and the Lord.
I personally believe that the web sites that you have dedicated much of your time to researching are doing nothing more than perpetuating gossip. I am not saying that there isn't truth in them...but why focus on the sin and downfalls of others...I've got plenty of my own to be dealing with right now. Also, I have personally known those who have fallen from high positions...they are humans who have sinned. They have to pay dearly for their failures.
Shell
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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 12/15/2002 10:10 AM (GMT -6) | | I have to agree with Electra, when I think of evangelicals, I think of Norman Geisler, J. P. Moreland, William Lane Craig, J. Budziszewski, and the like. I also make a distinction between liberal and conservative evangelicals, which doesn’t do away with Seekers list entirely, but it does shorten it a bit. And, most importantly, Seeker merely shows the tenacity of the human race to need a savior. Conservatives (as orthodox Christian) understand that mankind is reprobate; the liberal – like Rousseau – tends to view man as good, in nature. Wise-Seeker has merely shown with his examples that in the political worldview, conservatives are right on the mark. That being said, if the above mentioned evangelicals were to fall into sin and the media pounced on them, well, the Bible and Conservatism would once again be proven correct.
Now, your issue raises bigger issues, let me explain. I have bumped into people who say that they do not believe because of all the hypocrites in the world… or all the hypocrites they have met. I, graciously of course, point out that even if their were not one true Christian on the face of the planet that this would not negate the truth of Christianities claims. However, I drive the point home that all I would have to produce is one non-hypocritical Christian (in other words, abiding by the rules and concepts laid out by our Lord) and they would have to become believers. My next question would be that if once shown that single true Christian, would they then become Christians? The answer is almost always no, why? Because there are other reasons, most selfishly prejudicial or psychological – and this particular argument (hypocrites in the “church”) is just an easy excuse for them not to deal with the reality of the Resurrection and the implications this makes on their everyday lives. Which, by the way, they have become complacently use to.
I wish to point out one more item. First though, I do want to qualify this much… I am a three time convicted felon who carried a loaded .45 on myself for many years. I still battle with things from my past (old buddies who wish to go out drinking), and at times fall… always to be picked up by Christ I might add (and this picking up occurs in discipline as well). In the “Intellectual Challenges” section of the book Reason for Believing: A Seekers Guide to Christianity, Frank Harper makes a great point (after showing that God condemns hypocrisy, the church condemns it, and Christ was not a hypocrite) by saying:“Christians do not claim to be perfect. If Christianity claimed to be perfect. If Christianity claimed to be an organization for perfect people, then all Christians would be hypocrites. Though not all Christians are hypocrites, all Christians are sinners. In fact, admitting that one is a sinner is a prerequisite to belonging to the church…. Though hypocrisy is a sin, being a sinner does not make necessarily someone guilty of hypocrisy. The terms ‘sinner’ and ‘hypocrite’ are not synonymous. Many skeptics are actually guilty of imposing a double standard on Christians. They expect Christians to hold to standards they themselves could never dream of attaining. Moreover, when Christians do try to live up to these standards, they are often accused of false piety and pretense.” Keep in mind Seeker, the central truth of Christianity does not rest in the performance of its followers but in the merit of its founder. Christianity stands or falls with the person of Jesus Christ. When I was living in Ventura, a seaside town here in California, I lived with some old friends, you know, the guys that are partiers from way back. As I fell for the old line of fun and frivolity, my friends wife would point out that I was hypocrite, and she rejected God for that reason alone. Within a year I was back at a strong, well-balanced church surrounded by good Christian folk, so I stopped hanging out with my buddies on their beer runs and club hopping. And guess what, my friends wife said she wouldn’t accept even the idea of God because all us Christians were goody-two-shoes who thought they were above hanging out with the likes of her.
Seeker, take note that all she was doing was finding a convenient excuse to dodge the fact of the Resurrection and its implication on her own life, that she had “become complacently use to.” the “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” syndrome fueled by psychological prejudices. A great story is found by John Warwick Montgomery cited in the book Classical Apologetics: A Rational Defense of the Christian Faith and a Critique of Presuppositional Apologetics:Psychological Prejudice
But even a sound epistemic system, flawless deductive reasoning, and impeccable inductive procedure does not guarantee a proper conclusion. Emotional bias or antipathy might block the way to the necessary conclusion of the research. That thinkers may obstinately resist a logical verdict is humorously illustrated by John Warwick Montgomery’s modern parable:
Once upon a time (note the mystical cast) there was a man who thought he was dead. His concerned wife and friends sent him to the friendly neighborhood psychiatrist determined to cure him by convincing him of one fact that contradicted his beliefs that he was dead. The fact that the psychiatrist decided to use was the simple truth that dead men do not bleed. He put his patient to work reading medical texts, observing autopsies, etc. After weeks of effort the patient finally said, “All right, all right! You’ve convinced me. Dead men do not bleed.” Whereupon the psychiatrist stuck him in the arm with a needle, and the blood flowed. The man looked down with a contorted, ashen face and cried, “Good Lord! Dead men bleed after all!”
Emotional prejudice is not limited to dull-witted, the illiterate, and poorly educated. Philosophers and theologians are not exempt from the vested interests and psychological prejudice that distort logical thinking. The question of the existence of God evokes deep emotional and psychological prejudice. People understand that the question of the existence of God is not one that is of neutral consequence. We understand intuitively, if not in terms of its full rational implication, that the existence of an eternal Creator before whom we are ultimately accountable and responsible is a matter that touches the very core of life. I hope that these issues have shed more light on what you were saying at a deeper level, or so I thought at least. Ponder these examples and self-reflect to see that maybe, just maybe Wise-Seeker you may be “looking for love in all the wrong places,” and Jesus is right in front of your nose.
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1
Edited by - SeanG on 12/15/2002 3:14:43 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 12/15/2002 11:11 AM (GMT -6) | | SeanG!, I think you make a fair point that arguments against Christianity based on the hypocrisy and self-righteousness of Christians are sometimes intellectually lazy. But I think that Christian defenses based on the total depravity of the human condition can also be intellectually lazy.
I also agree with you that “the central truth of Christianity does not rest in the performance of its followers but in the merit of its founder.” But as Christians, we witness to the fact that Jesus transforms the lives of those who believe by forgiving our sins and healing our wounds and weaknesses. If this transformation is not evident in our lives, it can be a stumbling block to our witness to the gospel.
Wise Seeker is calling attention to that fact. Some people who accuse evangelicals of hyprocisy are just making excuses. But I think she is calling our attention to how this hypocrisy can wound in ways that cause people to stumble. Victimization is not an “excuse”—it is legitimate grounds for challenging the beliefs of evangelicals who victimize others. Her point is not “merely” psychological or intellectually lazy. It is about truth and justice.
I don’t think Wise Seeker’s challenge will be satisfied by evangelical appeals to human sinful nature. What if more evangelicals responded to accusations of hypocrisy by taking concrete responsibility for it instead of theologically rationalizing it away?
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8
Edited by - Electra on 12/15/2002 4:14:54 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/15/2002 1:02 PM (GMT -6) | | What is the worse, hypocrites, or those who revel in pointing out the hypocrites around them? Hmmm...
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/15/2002 3:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Electra and SeanG are both right. In principle, non-Christians are not justified in demanding absolute integrity from Christians. Yet Christians should act like they are justified. Whether rational or not, the onus of demonstrating the truth of Jesus Christ lies on us -- and Jesus himself said it would be this way (Jn 17:20-26). In my opinion, Wise Seekers objections are not rational or objective -- but they illustrate an important point that must be taken seriously by all who are called to witness to the Saviour.
doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 12/15/2002 6:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Amen
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1 | | Back to Top | | |
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Chucks3371
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 28
| Posted 12/16/2002 5:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
A California-based Christian marketing research company says non-Christians in the United States view evangelical Christians "somewhat more kindly than prostitutes, but with less affection than lesbians and lawyers."
I ran into these statistics from about 50 years ago:
quote:
Asked which group "is doing the most good for the country," Americans "places religious leaders third, after government leaders and business leaders, in 1942, but first in 1947." By 1957, "46% of the American people chose religious leaders as the group 'doing the most good' and most to be trusted, as opposed to 32.6% in 1947 and 17.5% in 1942.
So why the drop in respect in just a generation? Is it simply a change in culture, or have religious leaders (along with government and business leaders) fallen short, or maybe it is exposed more or the media?
It is not simply ignorance, since people were ignorant in the 50's. the same study says:
quote:
Though 83% of Americans affirmed the Bible to be the revealed word of God, 40% confressed that they read it never or hardly ever; and "asked to give the names of the first four books of the NT, 53% could not name even one"
I'm not sure what these statistics are showing, though I doubt that the Gallup poll will tell us when the Kingdom is at hand.
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SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278
| Posted 12/16/2002 8:06 PM (GMT -6) | | “I'm not sure what these statistics are showing, though I doubt that the Gallup poll will tell us when the Kingdom is at hand.” ~ Chucks3371
LOL, that was funny, thanks. I also read a poll that revealed that about 40% of Americans said they believed in reincarnation… didn’t Jesus say that the road to perdition is wide? Its hard enough trying to fit my fat a** through the eye of a needle let alone 83% of Americans! Man O’Mally. 
Chucks… 50 years ago? How old are you? Does Dr. Boyd give you the senior rate for cruising his site? 
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1 | | Back to Top | | |
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