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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817

Posted 2/6/2002 12:24 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

quote:

Think of the good Samaritan, jeez the list could go on and on, maybe I should just cut and paste the whole Bible in here.

~dare ya
selah

First installment:
Genesis 1
1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
3
And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
4
And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5
God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6
And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
7
And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so.
8
And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
9
And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.
10
God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11
And God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so.
12
The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
13
And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
14
And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
15
and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so.
16
And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also.
17
And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth,
18
to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19
And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
20
And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens."
21
So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22
And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
23
And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
24
And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.
25
And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
28
And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."
29
And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food.
30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.
31
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 2/6/2002 3:05 PM (GMT -6)

Acts 2 as the reversal of Babel. Oooo...that's good.

Modes your too much. First installment...

HA! HA! HA!

OK. Now Greg says,

quote:
The "social Gospel", rb, was a movement in the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century that reduced the Gospel to social action. I am not advocating that.

Greg, help the brother see the difference, 'cause that's where he's getting stuck.

Greg says,

quote:
In Gal 3 (vs. 27-28) the divisions are again overthrown. etc.

Yep. Richard Longenecker says that Paul probably did not realize the social ramifications when he said that. For Paul, social reform was not high on his agenda, if at all, but preaching Christ. We should not read our 20th/21st century assumptions on to the passage/text.

Also the fact that women are recorded in a favorable light in the Gospels, which was unheard of back in the day, is of interest here as well. Jewish writings did no such thing. Wasn't it considered a curse to be a women in Jewish culture?

So for all those people who want to diss Paul, they do so by ignoring the historical/cultural chasm that divides us and him.

Brandon

writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 2/6/2002 8:31 PM (GMT -6)

My own take on King (for what its worth): greatly admire a lot of what he said (though I think much of it is utopian), disagreed with some (of which I could be wrong), believe much of what is wrong with race together is not his doing, but because people have gone away from what he preached. However, I stop from calling him a prophet not because he was an adulterer (hey, we all be sinners), but because he continued in that sin throughout his life, which I do not see in the prophets of the Old Testament. Yes, they were sinners, but it would seem to me that if King was a prophet, somewhere along the line that issue would have been addressed. Obviously it was not. Harold

writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 2/6/2002 8:35 PM (GMT -6)

It should also be noted that if one is going to talk about the need for integration, one should not assume that it is only whites that want to be seperated. Many upper middle class blacks in the south now have their own neighborhoods that are exclusively black. Yet there isn't any yelling or screaming about segegation. Harold

Edited by - writerdad on 02/07/2002 01:40:01 AM

rb1963b
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/7/2002 2:48 PM (GMT -6)

The Gospel is that ALL MEN can be saved. Not all men spake in tongues, (none do today), so that part of your analogy is moot. God still is going to seperate the nations on how they treat Israel.
Paul stated it is not a great thing for an unsaved man to treat his son in a good way.
Modes, although I agree with you most of the time, the gospel is a PERSONAL thing, not a social, oh it can be preached SOCIALLY (in public), but it must be believed personally.
I do not believe that ALL MEN are the children of God, only those that have believed the Gospel as preached by PAUL the Apostle to the GENTILE.
THAT is the gospel that I espoused in Turkey, Saudia Arabia, England, and Spain, as well as in jails in Alabama, and in the streets of Fort Walton Beach, Fl. It is the gospel that I share with coworkers, family and friends. None of it includes MLK.
I now live in the Liberal bastion of Wisconsin, I know people in Minnisota. Prejudice reigns supreme here, but you wouldn't know it if you heard people talking about NOT being prejudice, but when that is not the subject, hate is spewed for anyone different then them. And you know what, there are more Luthern and Catholic Churches here than there are Baptist Churches in the South.
Man truly does look on the outward appearence!

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 2/7/2002 6:49 PM (GMT -6)

rb: Not all men spake in tongues, (none do today), so that part of your analogy is moot.
Doc: I speak in tongues.

But even if I didn't, the point wouldn't be moot. The issue is what God was conveying to us by reversing Babel on Pentecost. And the point is that the Church should be an army that "stops babbling." (get it... Babel-ing).

For BB, the difference between "the social gospel" of the 19th and 20th century, and what I'm talking about , is this: I don't pin my ultimate hopes on anything Uncle Sam, or any government, does or doesn't do. I pin it on the power of Jesus Christ to change people's hearts. As Christ changes these hearts, however, the thick invisible walls of racism have got to come down.

If rb is thinks racism is a sin that must be overcome in the Church, we may not be as far apart as initially appears.

Doc

God still is going to seperate the nations on how they treat Israel.
Paul stated it is not a great thing for an unsaved man to treat his son in a good way.
Modes, although I agree with you most of the time, the gospel is a PERSONAL thing, not a social, oh it can be preached SOCIALLY (in public), but it must be believed personally.
I do not believe that ALL MEN are the children of God, only those that have believed the Gospel as preached by PAUL the Apostle to the GENTILE.
THAT is the gospel that I espoused in Turkey, Saudia Arabia, England, and Spain, as well as in jails in Alabama, and in the streets of Fort Walton Beach, Fl. It is the gospel that I share with coworkers, family and friends. None of it includes MLK.
I now live in the Liberal bastion of Wisconsin, I know people in Minnisota. Prejudice reigns supreme here, but you wouldn't know it if you heard people talking about NOT being prejudice, but when that is not the subject, hate is spewed for anyone different then them. And you know what, there are more Luthern and Catholic Churches here than there are Baptist Churches in the South.
Man truly does look on the outward appearence!

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

rb1963b
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/11/2002 11:09 AM (GMT -6)

Greg,

So racism is a sin? I have read the King James all the way through and missed that one. If racism is a sin, then Jesus was a sinner, for he said he came ONLY (but) for the house of Israel. Do you still want to stand by that statement? Even though it is politically incorrect to be racist today, if a racist treats others the way "he" wants to be treated, with respect, etc., but believes that races should not mix, is he sinning? If so, please explain how.
I did not realize that you believed in speaking in tongues in this dispensation of the grace of God. I have studied this out and find that it was a "sign" gift that was originally given to Moses to convince the leaders of Israel, and besides in Acts 2 it specifically states that tongues were HEARD in different languages by the hearers.

fr.patmos
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 2/11/2002 2:53 PM (GMT -6)

rb (aka 'rhythm & blues'???)

maybe you are right on track ...

Gentiles should remain separate from
the people of promise.

Especially the narrow minded, spiteful ones;
(you know the ones)
that have an utterly inflated and false
sense of their own spiritual (and otherwise)
worth.

maybe you're on to something:

("Jesus ... the absolute red neck!?!")

yeah

so that all the stuff about
"neither Jew nor Greek", etc.
is 'liberal politically correct' stuff

(& Paul has always been suspect, that
shrimpy elite intellectual! his too-long
sentences lose those champions of the mean
& simple obvious)

Go for it rb

ghettoize your own kind

maybe that's the divine plan
after all.

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 2/11/2002 3:55 PM (GMT -6)

LOL. . .preach it, Fr. Patmos. . .

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

rb1963b
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/11/2002 4:21 PM (GMT -6)

Salvation is not marriage. If you are saying that there is neither Jew nor Greek to mean such, he (Paul) also said "neither male nor female" care to carry what you are saying out to the utter end? You see the problems that occur when you try to mingle philosophy of the day with the word of God?
You mess with it and it messes with your mind! But I am not the one that is being sarchastic here. I asked a simple question, you give a sarchastic red herring in return. Did Jesus LIE when he said that he came BUT for the house of Israel? Was he rude when he called the gentile woman at the well a dog? And she was a female. I guess the meaning is lost there, huh?

fr.patmos
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 2/11/2002 5:53 PM (GMT -6)

may there be black people in your
genetic code, 'rhythm and blues'!

start dancing a happy dance, bro!

p.s. No sarcasm here - what the life of Jesus inaugurated was revealed to Peter, who's religious/racial exclusivity was brought to an end by that revelation:
"What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." (Acts 10:15 KJV)

In all sincerity, rb - I am not sure if
your racial separatism is more idiotic or demonic. Prompted by reason that is wrong and a spirit that is evil, you seek to employ the Scriptures against the revealed will of God. In Jesus' name - for the sake of the revealed love of God for all - be silent until the Truth overcomes you!

And until that time, by God's mercy, may you be spared from your own skewed, malevolent and vicious standard.

Edited by - fr.patmos on 02/11/2002 11:06:39 PM

fr.patmos
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 2/11/2002 6:16 PM (GMT -6)

... and the woman, to whom Jesus' metaphor
referred as 'dog', demonstrated faith
(which is righteousness) exceeding.

Jesus' prevenient knowing and divine
discernment toward her drew exactly that
exemplary faith out, to the embarrassment
of those who deem themselves pedigreed in the eyes of God.

Those who do not get that out of this
Gospel episode - those who assert instead
that it indicates Jesus' partiality to the Jews - are likely to not 'get' any big or little thing about Him.

rb1963b
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/12/2002 4:46 PM (GMT -6)

FPM,

I'll just take your ignorance of the text as the reason that you are pushing something that is not there. The episode of the sheet in no way endorces mix-race marriage, it shows that the gospel had gone to the gentiles. You obviously want to gloss over the ultimate end of what you are saying. Jesus came for the house of Israel, the house of Israel rejected him, until that time, the jews were his aim, thus his "I would have gathered you" statement. The only other alternative to your assertion is that Jesus taught Peter universalism, which is madness.
There is clearly a difference between a man and a woman, there is a difference between Jews and gentiles, what he was teaching is that there is no difference on how we are to become saved, if you try to apply anything other than that, you are pushing a misogynistic principle that is just not there. God set the bounds of habitation, we are the ones that broke it, just like man breaks every other law that He sets.
BTW I could care less what my lineage in this life is, what matters is I am now in the line with a King. And it is not Michael Luther King that I am referring to!

Springs
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636

Posted 2/12/2002 5:42 PM (GMT -6)

This thread has had a weird affect on me.
It started out fine but every so often I would read a post and react like a cat, erck gak, with a hairball.

God bless you Fr. Patmos you are more gracious than I.

Springs

"God has instituted prayer so as to confer upon his creatures the dignity of being causes." — Blaise Pascal

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 2/12/2002 5:47 PM (GMT -6)

There is only ONE RACE. Christ assumed it. Saved it.

There is no other "race" -- just that one.

(Else the Son/Logos would have to keep returning.)

So everybody had better mind their "p"s and "q"s on THAT one.

But the same thing is true of gender. There is ONE humanity. An unity. A unity that was shattered by the fall, but healed by Christ. And by the Spirit it is seen the truth of God's intention for humanity as seen in the sacrificial sacrament of marriages where Christ is supreme, male-and-female (a unity) living for each other and for Christ.

There are those liberals who would say that Christ, a man, could only die for males; and therefore a female savior is also necessary.

(R-, without knowing it, you were down the path more than half way to where you certainly don't want to lead anybody!!!)

God-incarnate assumed humanity and without confusion or diminution joined it to his divine nature in an asymmetrical union.

If we don't begin right there, with about everything, we falter.

Christ saved, and in the words of the Christmas hymn, "far as the curse is found..." That enmity between man and woman is part of that domain, the cursed (by us). Christ healed it.

In Christ there is no division of one part of humanity over-and-against another. Babel is undone at Pentecost.

In Christ there is no division of the unity of man-and-woman into separate standalones. The communion is reborn.

Begin with Christology every time.

PotOnWheel

(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")

fr.patmos
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 2/12/2002 8:29 PM (GMT -6)

yes,
peace and love

Edited by - fr.patmos on 02/13/2002 09:57:24 AM

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 2/13/2002 3:09 AM (GMT -6)

Hello. Is anybody there ?

peace and love, don

( fr.patmos, glad to see your back :) )

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

Edited by - might-be-don on 02/13/2002 10:02:44 AM

fr.patmos
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 2/13/2002 5:23 AM (GMT -6)

:)

(virtual) community of the faith is a gift

rb1963b
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/13/2002 12:14 PM (GMT -6)

POW,

Your grandstanding on unstable sand! The gospel to the gentiles states that all can be saved. That is a given. But the rest of your rhetoric is just that, rhetoric. It has NO support in scripture.
The same person who wrote, there is neither male nor female ALSO wrote that the man was not made for the woman, but the woman for the man, HE also stated that a BISHOP was to be the HUSBAND of one wife, as well as DEACONS.
Your discourse on Babel is lost due to the fact that it was not what Acts is talking about. The reason that God seperated men was due to their trying to get to heaven a different way than what he taught at that time. The Jews were not chosen until MUCH later than God's action at Babel, so that also shows your picture to be quite blurred. The thing that seperated men was sin, not a place. Hatred, lies, covetousness, those are the things that seperate men from men and men from God.
I don't know where this unfounded association of not believing in race mixing (race indicating the three lines of men that came out of Noah's sons.). I know that this is very unpopular IN THIS COUNTRY right now, but it is not so in other countries. Look at Israel, or Turkey, or China, or Japan. race mixing is still looked down upon in those countries.

BJS
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 2/13/2002 1:40 PM (GMT -6)

PoW, fr. patmos, I hate to say it, but this may be a Matthew 7:6 moment. Don't waste much more mental energy on this guy.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

Edited by - bjs on 02/13/2002 6:48:49 PM

Modes of Thought
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817

Posted 2/14/2002 7:09 AM (GMT -6)

I second that motion.

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK

Kyle Essary
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 2/14/2002 7:29 AM (GMT -6)

Motion to accept Brett's motion....

All in favor? I!
All opposed?

The motion carries

Really though, if you wanna argue dispensationalism then round up 1way, Bob Hill and all the others and ya'll have fun, but please start another thread for it. The Bible clearly speaks against racism time and time again.

Kyle Essary

rb1963b
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/14/2002 3:50 PM (GMT -6)

Book Chapter and verse IN CONTEXT.

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 2/14/2002 4:24 PM (GMT -6)

Whatever your definitions Rb, whether you wish to make u0p a term called "racism" and/or "race" is just fine. its a bunch of words. But here is your chapter and verse. And the new LAW is Love. THAT is definitive. It defines you. By that law you will be shown to either belong to Christ, or to not belong to Christ.

quote:
Luke 10: 29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" 30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. `Look after him,' he said, `and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' 36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" 37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

Have at it. Go love a black man and an oriental woman, and a hispanic family. Think of them more highly than you do yourself. As St. Francis said, seek "to understand rather than to be understood."

Do that in the power of the Spirit of Christ and all else is just words.

But, if you somehow decide that that does not apply; then all your words will fall and be just that. Words.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 2/16/2002 4:08 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
rb1963b
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 8:50:26 PM
-------------------------------
Book Chapter and verse IN CONTEXT.

Once, an a thread on Baptism I had posted stuff (guesses) in response to Bob Hill about Trinity. (His dividing baptisms of HS and water invited speculative questions. But his own words cleared it up. I QUICKLY pulled down my posts!) Someone here mentioned Bob. Let me follow up. Below are quotes from Bob and his co-host on a site called "biblicalanswers.com",who is called "Obadiah." What the responded to was quotes from this thread with ALL NAMES/HANDLES removed! I'm guessing that it is IK to post them here. First, I think it important to have some sort of "answer" on this thread as a book end to a fair expression of feelings (of exasperation that many on CVM board felt) in response to Dispensationalism. We wore each other out. (Though 1- and C- would say they were just getting started.

) and second, it might be helpful to both use who escue racism and to R- to see that what he has posted deserves carful critique, with warning from many voices from many camps that it is not Godly.

Here are the biblicalanswers.com responses:

an excellent article on the curse of Ham at Robert Brow's website

If it weren't such a serious issue, I'd find the faulty exegesis in the quotes amusing

On top of all that, he has the nerve to demand "chapter and verse" to substantiate the biblical condemnation of racism

That is biblicalanswers.com's position

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