Open Theism Discussion Board

Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > In Honor of Martin Luther King, Jr.

Forum Quick Jump

83 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Kyle Essary
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 2/16/2002 4:49 AM (GMT -6)

I brought up Bob Hill because rb brought dispensationalism into the debate with this quote:

quote:
I did not realize that you believed in speaking in tongues in this dispensation of the grace of God.

and

quote:
Jesus came for the house of Israel, the house of Israel rejected him, until that time, the jews were his aim, thus his "I would have gathered you" statement.

That is why I mentioned Bob Hill. It is funny that the posts from this board about racism and the one at Bob's website were so close together in time. Did you post the question on Bob's website rb?

Kyle Essary

rb1963b
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/16/2002 7:05 AM (GMT -6)

kyle,

I did about 8 months ago, but not about this subject.

So there are not an original 3 races from Ham, Shem and Japheth? That is interesting.

And NOW it is wrong to ask for references for those that teach something that is supposedly biblical.

God teaches inter-racial marriage? Numbers 38:8, Gen. 24, Gen. 27:47, 28:1, 28:8.

Now there are exceptions, that of Samson, but it was not because of good, but because God wanted to break the stronghold that the philistines had on Israel. NOTHING GOOD HAPPENED IN THAT MARRIAGE, exept the final outcome for Israel.
Are there marriages that are outside of this concept? Yes. Can God use people in any situation? Yes. But it is not his plan that it happen, not only does it breed contempt from the surrounding community, but it puts stresses on the marriage that otherwise would not be there.
These are side issues anyway. My main objection is that verses that DO NOT teach inter-racial marriage are being used to promote it. Verses are being forced to promote it, as the Luke 10 passage that POW offered in support. Notice also that he made a statement that if I did not agree with his statement that I am wrong. That is a gratuitous assertion, and can be met by a gratuitous assertion such as, "If POW teaches outside of the context of a verse, then he is unsaved". Do I believe that? NO, I have nothing to base that on, as well, he has nothing to base his argument against an argument. Unless he is supporting "brothers" marrying "brothers" the passage has no merrit for proof.

I have clearly displayed that if Galatians 3:28 teaches inter-racial marriage, it also teaches homosexual marriage. That is NOT what it teaches at all, it teaches that all must come the same way to Christ.

To refuse to give references to support what you teach is a clear violation of 1 Peter 3:15.

You can believe what you want, that is between you and God, but what I am objecting to is using verses out of context to support your belief, it is not a safe thing to do.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 2/16/2002 8:55 AM (GMT -6)

#1 -- It would be nonsense to teach FOR interracial marriage, since there is only one race -- and that, as Bob and Obediah said, is "human." (All other combinations...we won't go there.)

#2 -- Rb, go up and look at what my verse was supporting. it was NOT marriage. It was LOVE.

quote:
the new LAW is Love. THAT is definitive. It defines you. By that law you will be shown to either belong to Christ, or to not belong to Christ.
quote:
Luke 10: 36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" 37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

A clear reading of what I wrote is that whether you "belong to Christ, or to not belong to Christ" really is as you yourself said, NOT connected to agreeing with what anyone said. But it has everything to do with what I said: "the new LAW is Love. THAT is definitive. It defines you. By that law you will be shown to either belong to Christ, or to not belong to Christ."

Are you clear on that now?

#3 -- You said, and I'm assuming that this is your experience (rather than good social science, or drawing from scripture!) that : "not only does it breed contempt from the surrounding community, but it puts stresses on the marriage that otherwise would not be there."

History says otherwise. A great SIN in fairly recent times is what Europeans have been doing to many parts of the world by carving up regions into "nations" which always have had multiethnic and multi-linguistic mixing. Its called "Balkanization." An area that even today is refereed to in Arabic as "Roman" got carved into separate slices...and today from isolation comes contempt, and then war and terrorism.

I have college Prof. friends who moved from Oregon to Chicago. He had never felt the kind of segmentation out west (It blended quite nicely because of historic rapid settlement.) that he felt in Chicago. Here I experience even more relaxed-ness compared to in an all white and racist town in Northern Indiana. (At a college where my department head said that it was the only Christian college in the state of Indiana.)

The conscious separation that I think I see in what you are saying -- and I definitely heard voiced from those Indiana "Christian" students breeds a disunity that is the opposite of the transformative power of the Spirit that the world witnessed in the first few centuries.

Besides, compare Acts 2:44-47 with Acts 6:1. What is the witness of the Spirit? NOTHING there is about marriage. I want to beat you to that punch. But learn first the spirit of the message. Build on what God is transforming, reforming, transfiguring... Follow the spirit, not the flesh. Division was a result of the fall. Division between sexes leading to exploitation and breakdown in communication. Division between man and nature, resulting in thorns, sweaty brows, and massive ecological damage throughout history. not part of the "curse" was the jealousy that led to the first homicide. And what had to be curbed at Babel was not part of the original creation either, nor was it normative.

But neither can it be grandfathered in as somehow now a part of God's will.

And that is what you have done.

Go back and see/listen to what the Spirit has said to the churches.

PotOnWheel

(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")

Kyle Essary
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 2/16/2002 11:02 AM (GMT -6)

I don't get it, how can three brothers start three races? Please explain RB. Aren't they all from the same line, the human line? Maybe it would be best for you to give a definition of race. Thanks dude.

Kyle Essary

Modes of Thought
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817

Posted 2/16/2002 5:54 PM (GMT -6)

rb, I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you are a middle aged (40-55 or so) "White" (as though that constitutes a "race" or ethnicity) male. If this is correct, please tell me about your pure ethnicity and that of your wife's. Are you in compliance with ethnic purity marriage agenda? Just curious about the degree of hypocracy we are dealing with here.

Most "black" people, probably nearly ALL are not of 100% African decent (largely because of rapes by slave owners). Does this mean that they are ALL out of compliance?

Even IF you were right, it hardly matters anymore anyway. We are almost all mutts.

"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK

Daylan
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 5

Posted 2/16/2002 5:56 PM (GMT -6)

Rb, brother. What are you trying to accomplish here. I wanted to learn a little about MLK and now you seem to have taken the spotlite. I think I've been where you are, brother. I loved defending what I thought was Christ, for the sake of the savory violence, and for the sake of feeling like I'm the only one that's rite. Have you gotten a taste for elitism, are you enjoying the dialogue. I know that I was at first tempted toward the delights of hate when I read through this thread. Hate toward you and what you stand for. But I'm not falling for what Satan would love to work in us. If you think we would espouse a different Gospel, how about "becoming all things to all men" and joining in constructively on the topic so that you might win us over. You don't know at what point I might be in my walk. Seeing this kind of violence in your manner is not helping. What are some good things you know about MLK?

Kyle Essary
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 2/18/2002 1:52 PM (GMT -6)

RB, I really wish you would explain how three brothers can each be different races. Or just please define race.

Kyle Essary

rb1963b
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/19/2002 1:08 PM (GMT -6)

Kyle,

Sorry, but I don't have time to be on the puter every night. I live in an older house and that brings about "suprises", some that need tending right away and some that don't, unfortunatly, the last one has cost me a few days of work.

Perhaps "education" has changed in the last decade, I mean, up until 1973 homosexuality was classified as "deviant", but when the homosexuals got a stronghold in the APA that changed.
There are three races of mankind:
Mongoloid, Negroid and caucazoid, and now there is a mixture of those. So that would be a "blended" or as someone here has stated "mutt" or "mongral".

I am of the opinion, that this is in line with the last days. I also believe it has something to do with the number of the anti-christ. But of course there are so many differing opinions on what that number means, it seems that noone really cares, of course it states that it takes wisdom to understand the number.

POW,

You have such ingrained notions. You have been taught by the liberal news media that racist = hate. Can you prove that? I have brought you numerous verses that show God seperated and segregated. You do not accept the meaning of these verses because you have been taught that inter-racial relationships are good and God has changed his mind about what he use to do. Although he can change his mind, this is NOT one of the things he has done so about.
This is the problem with the periphrial issues, it breeds anger by some.
I don't have to justify myself to you, but I will give you some of my background. I helped out in a jail ministry in lower Alabama, most of those in jail there were black. I gave them the gospel believing that some would become brothers in Christ. While in Saudia Arabia, I witnessed to a Phillipino shopkeeper, (I was turned in by fellow Americans), I left him with what he needed to know about trusting Christ to be his Savior. I have witnessed to Turks while in Turkey, and many times I witnessed to Brittish Nationals. Jesus saved many of them. Now you will notice that all three LINES (since the word "race" is objectionable) of Noah's sons were represented. If I hated others, WHY would I care that they believe and be saved?

Daylan,

I will try to be gentle with you, but will also show you some verses.

Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong. 1 Cor. 16:13

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Eph. 6:10

Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. 2 Tim. 2:3,4

We are not called to be wimps emotionally in this fight for Christ, in the challange that he has given us. Sure, some we have to be gentle with, but others we have to manhandle. Some see the problems that their sins cause, others have to be told that their sin is great. But, we must, through study find out what God calls sin, not what man calls sin. If a man KNOWS to do right, and does not do it, to him it is sin. (interesting verse)
All I am asking is, what does the Bible say, and what are you going to do about it?
I will admit that I do come off a bit badly, but nowhere does it state that we have to have good social skills in order to be right about a subject.
Prejudice against an idea will skew understanding. It is obvious that there is no way that we can reason together on the subject of context.

Kyle Essary
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 2/19/2002 1:19 PM (GMT -6)

No problem on the delay RB, thanks for the response!

Kyle Essary

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 2/19/2002 11:35 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
There are three races of mankind:
Mongoloid, Negroid and caucazoid, and now there is a mixture of those. So that would be a "blended" or as someone here has stated "mutt" or "mongral".

I am of the opinion, that this is in line with the last days. I also believe it has something to do with the number of the anti-christ.

That is "inflamatory language" enough. And ignores history throughout hisotry, and across the landscape.

rb1963b
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/20/2002 4:50 PM (GMT -6)

Well, sorry that you FEEL that way POW, I remember reading about the "oids" in my 5th grade social studies book in PUBLIC SCHOOL.

Edited by - rb1963b on 02/20/2002 9:51:13 PM

rb1963b
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/22/2002 1:10 PM (GMT -6)

Oh, by the way, when I was younger in my faithI did believe that inter-racial marriage was ok in God's sight as long as the two were christians.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 2/22/2002 4:41 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Rb: So that would be a "blended". . .this is in line with the last days. . .to do with. . .the anti-christ.
-------------------------------------------------------
PoW: That is "inflamatory language" enough.

Rb, this does not appear to be a matter of my "feelings", as you then said.

Aren't you impuning anyone of "blended" heritage as being related to the introduction of horrible evil?

I called that "inflamatory." Do you disagree?

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 2/22/2002 4:48 PM (GMT -6)

Rb: You said that you had been on Bob Hills' website.

NOTE the REASON he gives for his position. Note it well!

quote:
Bob Hill
posted 02-21-2002 12:50 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear _______,
Years ago when I was a youth director in California a young man presented a racist belief in the Hi-College group. I raised my hand and asked a number of questions. One of them was, "If you had only 2 choices, would you, if you had a daughter, want her to marry an unsaved Caucasian or a Christian black man?"

His answer was the Caucasian.

Others in the church had the same thinking.

They would rather disobey God when it came to racism.

In Christ there is no difference,
Bob Hill

So, Rb. Is Christ "Lord of ALL?"

rb1963b
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/24/2002 9:56 AM (GMT -6)

Well, seing that there is no lack of save male caucasians, I guess that would not be a problem that I will have to worry about.

"blended"? Why what do you mean? There is only one race, remember. Of course my eyes tell me different, but, since you say that there is no physical difference, you must be right.

As to saying all "blended" people are evil, which is what you are implying that I am advocating, that is nonsence. John Mark was BLENDED. But his parents conceived him before his mother became a christian.

God can use anyone that is willing to be used, (and some that are not), but, that does not mean that His highest purpose was done before in those lives. God set the boundries, we broke and brake them. That still does not negate the idea of 6 (man) 6 (man) 6 (man) the three lines of man in one man.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 2/24/2002 10:24 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Rb:
John Mark was BLENDED. But his parents conceived him before his mother became a christian.

God can use anyone that is willing to be used, (and some that are not), but, that does not mean that His highest purpose was done before in those lives. God set the boundries, we broke and brake them. That still does not negate the idea of 6 (man) 6 (man) 6 (man) the three lines of man in one man.

Now your cards are on the table for all to see.

First, you implied that it is unChristian to have "blended" (I quoted you) children.

Second, you say that God's highest purpose is done in sticking to the "three lines of man".

Kyle Essary
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 2/24/2002 10:52 AM (GMT -6)

Keeping those three lines was "His highest purpose?" That's pretty sick dude. And it was unChristian for them to have John Mark? As if after they were saved they wouldn't have? Sick (I mean that in the negative way, not in the snowboarder positive way).

Kyle Essary

rb1963b
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/25/2002 12:56 PM (GMT -6)

I have givenyou ample time to come up with just ONE verse that states that it is ok to blend! Have you given any IN CONTEXT? No, not one, no not one.

I even gave you the example of John Mark. You are victems of this politically correct society.

Acts 17:27 states that there are boundries that God set up. Genisis 9:27 has something to say, but, will you believe it?

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 2/25/2002 4:07 PM (GMT -6)

What foolishness!

Seek verses for permission ("that it is ok") to do what is good?

Permission to plant tomatoes? Permission to craft a pitcher on the potter's wheel? Permission to create a poem?

I'll give you several.

But get off of that foolishness that tells you that THROWING Biblical verses around makes something right. Seems that the number of verses you can use self-impresses you!

Well, I remember you, Rb. You tried to heckle a post I had that included commentary and preaching by Basil and Great (who's De Spiritu established doctrine on the deity of the Holy Spirit) and Athanasius (who wrote On the Incarnation). You bailed!!! You didn't respond to my answer. Had you there were 50-100 verses in the footnotes citing where Athanasius had taken from scripture in his work. He didn't have to chapter and verse it all. he knew it.

Here's two verses. I mentioned more than "blending" above. I also listed horiticulture, and "naming" (poetry), and culture.

Genesis 9:7 -- As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."
Gen 2:24 -- For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. AND Matthew 19:5/Mark 10:7 -- and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' (also Ephesians 5:31)
Gen 2:19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. (Culture & poetry)

Now listen, little man, when I "blended" (your foul mouth!) it was God's will. My ring on my left hand says "A chord of three strands is not easily broken." My wedding included a communion service. It was a service of three participants -- myself, my wife, and God. It matters NOT AT ALL that more than one son of Noah's bloodline are involved.

Tell your complaint to God. God stands before you. Christ stands before you as the whole human, uniting all in his crucified and risen flesh.

Any complaints you have, take them up with HIM.

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 2/25/2002 4:29 PM (GMT -6)

Preach it PoW!!!

Thanks,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

Kyle Essary
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 2/25/2002 6:07 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks PoW. That was great, and truly God Himself was speaking through you.

RB, I am mostly native american. I've got some white blood, some black blood. I'm not negroid, mongloid or caucazoid. As far as my people remember, we didn't originate in Africa, we didn't originate in Mongolia, and we didn't originate in the Caucasus Mts in Russia. What would I be in your book? Or am I even considered human to you? God made mankind. Male and Female he created them. He didn't create differing races, he created mankind, all one race. Me and my wife are from the same race regardless of color. That brings me to a good question, why do you distinguish race by color or land of origin even? Why not by nose shape, or hair color or some other way to divide. Once again, Christ taught unity and you are teaching division. I am sorry if you take this as rude or inflammatory, but I have considered many of your posts as such, so I am sorry. I mean, honestly, indifference aside, do you really truly believe that Christ intends division among His children?

Edited by - Kyle Essary on 02/26/2002 10:24:18 AM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 2/26/2002 1:49 AM (GMT -6)

Hey, Kyle. An editorial note. If only the top of that paragraph is directed to me, then please make it into two paragraphs--one for each audience. Please.

Kyle Essary
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 2/26/2002 5:25 AM (GMT -6)

There ya go PoW, I am sorry it looked that way, I was pretty angered when I typed it. Sorry.

Kyle Essary

Kyle Essary
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 113

Posted 2/26/2002 5:32 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

RB, Now that is the translation from the 1611 KJV. I don't understand how those verses promote racism. If anything they seem to deny it with the phrase "And hath made of one blood all nations of men."

Kyle Essary

rb1963b
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 2/27/2002 2:11 PM (GMT -6)

"truly God Himself was speaking through you."

NOT!

Kyle, it also states that he set up the bounds of their habitation. The sons of Shem went east (the Simitic races), the sonsof Japheth went north and west, the sons of Cain went south. So, that would answer the question that you had.
.................................

Naturally there is NO context relative to this discussion in references that you gave POW. You are emotionally involved and not logically involved. When we look at ourselves many times we think, "God gives me exeption on this" when he really doesn't.

Jesus doesn't teach division? Well, I guess Luke 12:51-53, John 7:43, 9:16, 10:19 must be some of those verses that Westcott and Hort edited out of the "bible".

There is also "seperation" taught in scripture. You don't like what I say about this subject because it applies to you. Did I say that God cannot use you or your abilities? Now answer truthfully. He can use you just as he uses a faithful person that has been divorced, a glutton, a person that has lied, tattooed their skin, was a drug user, alchohol abuser, wife beater, etc. Some thing we must give up to be effective others there may be a greater sin if we choose not to be in the situation any longer. I didn't list all sins possible before, but I think that you get the picture, God uses PEOPLE for good, all PEOPLE except Christ sinned or sins. You don't like me very much because of what I say, you PROBABLY have PREJUDGED ME, and have refused to look at ALL that I say.
You have been brainwashed to think that those that disagree with you on this subject are HATERS of other races. I have stated what I have done in witnessing to others, and leading OTHERS to Jesus for salvation. This included not only WHITES. Now, ask yourself, "If this guy really hated others, would he give an iota if they got saved? Would he have put his NECK on the line to do so?" I am NOT an advocate of just bringing up a problem, that does nothing to solve it, I am a believer in action.
I once knew a couple of people (guy's)that had a conversation over one of the guy's children using the N word, the other guy got up in a tizzy and asked if the first guy was going to spank or wash the childs mouth out with soap. Just went off on the first guy in a rage for about 10 minutes. After the first guy finally got the second guy calmed down, he stated what follows politely.

"My child goes to school with black kids at public school, a black family lives three doors down from us, they are good neighbors and our kids play togather, I work with a couple of black fellows, and I support a black missionary financially.
You on the other hand live on the other side of town, there is no black families that live within 5 miles of you, your children go to a private school where no black children attend, you don't employ any black people at your business. You are more concerned with a word than you are with how you live. We have been friends since high school and that is the only reason that I am saying this to you. As to MY child, I will correct him when I deem fit. I will also teach him what I know to be right. He has NEVER been rude to his friend a few doors down, they play and get along just fine. When he gets out of line, believe me, he will be punnished."

This is a TRUE story, you may not like it, but it also teaches a truth. Actions don't always speak louder than words.

All I can say is, if I am wrong, I will stand before my Savior one day and he will tell me. If I am right, you will stand before Our Savior one day and he will tell you.

We will just have to disagree on this whether we agree to or not. One thing is for sure, if we have both believed Romans 10:1-13 and 1 Cor 15:1-4 we are brothers in Christ, whether you like it or not. Maybe you can say, "Who, him? Yeah he's family, but he's a little strange."

In Christ,
RB

83 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4

Forum Information

Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 1:18 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual