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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/6/2003 11:53 AM (GMT -6)

Virtue is as virtue does?
Cal Thomas

May 6, 2003

If I were a betting man, I would wager the
demons in hell are rejoicing over the news that William Bennett has been outed as a gambler. His critics, who never liked imposing a moral code on themselves and so rejected the idea that such a code was good for anyone else, are celebrating what they perceive to be a vindication of their position.

That attitude was expressed in a column by Michael Kinsley in the May 5 Washington Post: "Sinners have long cherished the fantasy that William Bennett, the virtue magnate, might be among our number." It is peculiar when liberals refer to "sin," a diagnosis for human depravity they long abandoned, replacing it with "dysfunctional" to explain why we seem incapable of perfecting ourselves.

Kinsley and others argue that Bennett's gambling habit was "victimless." But no person exists in a vacuum. Our personal behavior creates ripples that touch other lives. Bennett has a family - his own and a larger "family" of people who have been positively influenced by his secular sermons, as well as our culture that needs voices like his to respond to those whose behavior and "preaching" have led to societal deviance.

Bennett admits to wagering a lot of money over several years (Newsweek and Washington Monthly magazine claim it was $8 million, which his wife, Elayne, denies to USA Today), but he says he did not gamble "the milk money."

Gambling is a vice, which Bennett now realizes, and he has pledged not to gamble any more. He should also give up his "penny poker" game, because, just as an alcoholic must not have an "occasional" beer, neither can a problem gambler play for lesser stakes and not be hooked again.

Kinsley's primary objection to Bennett, after indulging in the fun of clucking over another "fallen" moralizer, is that Bennett is "smug, disdainful (and) intolerant." No more so than the people who have "imposed" their immorality on the rest of us through the media and the courts. Telling people they ought to stop doing certain things and start doing other things is not the way to win friends, but a prophet, who speaks the thoughts and standards of others, can never have winning friends as his primary objective, not if he is to influence people.

Most of the Psalms were written by King David. David had an affair with a married woman named Bathsheba. He ordered her husband, Uriah, sent to the front lines because David knew Uriah would be killed. She was pregnant at the time with David's child. Still, God used David, after he repented, to produce some of the most beautiful, profound and yes, "virtuous," words ever written. (see 2 Samuel 11)

If the standard is that one must be perfect in order to speak or write about man's fallen nature - or about societal weaknesses - then we would have no laws or morals at all, because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), including those who write the laws to control us. Every word in Scripture came from the pen of a man who had sinned. It is not how far short of the standard anyone has fallen, but whence comes the standard itself. Neither Bill Bennett nor I make the rules or set the standard. Was Bennett humble enough? Probably not. Am I? Absolutely not. Does that dilute the power of the standard we proclaim? Certainly not.

Even had Bennett been perceived as humble, would that have mattered to critics like Kinsley? Unlikely. Mother Teresa was the most humble person I have ever met, but her humility probably did not convert many pro-abortionists to her point of view.

Bennett's enemies will use his gambling problem as a kind of reverse sermonizing, but what are they going to do - come out for debauchery, chicanery and vice? They pay homage to virtue by their condemnation of Bennett, acknowledging that a standard for human conduct does exist, otherwise it wouldn't matter what he said or did.

Like all of us, Bill Bennett suffers from certain vices. But that does not override the virtues he has proclaimed.

Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com

ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655

Posted 5/6/2003 5:02 PM (GMT -6)

I think Cal's missing the point here. It's not that Bennett is such an evil person and that he is being ganged up upon. It is that people don't appreciate being preached to about the speck in their eye from someone who has a plank in his own. People are sick of moral teachers exhibiting very real moral failure - eg Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Charles Stanley. It doesn't mean these people are condemned. It means, when you preach about morality, have some compassion. Don't be blind to your own weaknesses and failures.

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is true."
- James Branch Cabell

honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 5/6/2003 7:56 PM (GMT -6)

Actually, RD, I think you are missing the point. Read Kinsey's article. Nothing but hate. Regardless, the fact that Bennett's books are bestsellers says something about the fact that people are interested in virtues. It also should be pointed out that Bennett never hid the fact that he was a gambler, nor is it illegal to gamble, nor did it hurt his family. Its pretty much an issue brought up by people who don't like the fact that there is a standard out there that they know they should be living up to.

John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715

Posted 5/6/2003 9:14 PM (GMT -6)

In criticizing a fallen moralizer, one admits to a standard of some kind, and thus is himself a moralizer. One who trumpets a standard certainly ought to practice what he preaches; as Bennett didn't keep this a secret and didn't say it was wrong, it does not seem Bennett was being hypocritical. Stupid? Certainly. If I blew 8 million bucks on gambling I think that would definitely qualify as a stupid and wasteful course of action.

Morality lies in the intention behind the act. The problem with gambling is there doesn't seem to be any possible motive other than greed or pleasure or both.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 5/7/2003 2:25 AM (GMT -6)

I'll wager that the democrats won't let this issue die down. Anyone want to take that bet? Name your odds.

Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through?

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 5/7/2003 3:39 AM (GMT -6)

Cute Laika.

Many people gamble as entertainment and sport. Like many forms of entertainment and sport, it can for some be addicting. Bennet's sin is in principle no different than that other sports addicts. It's just that he had more money, and thus more entertainment, to play with.

If Bennet had preached against gambling, his critics might have a point.

But he didn't.

Greg

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/7/2003 4:07 AM (GMT -6)

I originally heard about Bennett and his gambling thingy through Mitch Albom’s radio show. And he just RAGGED on Bennett. He would say something to the effect that he could not be soooo worthy as to tell other people how to live. That it was not a responsibility that he would want. He also ragged about how hypocritical it was of Bennett to speak out against hedonism and materialism, etc, (and he quoted from one of Bennett’s books condemning such secular virtues) and yet here he was blowing his money. But what is ironic is that guys like Albom and Kingsley are the ones who actually glory in someone else’s demise. As Mona Charen ( a friend of Bill Bennett’s) says, it

quote:
”… has gladdened the malicious hearts of those who think condemning sin is much more grievous than practicing it.”

ReasonableDoubt said:

quote:
It is that people don't appreciate being preached to about the speck in their eye from someone who has a plank in his own.

A couple things here. Think of Martin Luther King. Would you say the same thing about this “adulterer?”

Also, there is a difference between being obnoxiously self-righteous and speaking about morality and virtue. Again, Mona Charen:

quote:
Yes, self-righteousness is obnoxious (and so is schadenfreude, Mr. Kinsley), but Bill Bennett has never been guilty of self-righteousness. He has always carefully resisted others' attempts to portray him as some sort of exemplar, pleading that he was far from perfect.

This is why I agree with honorman and John:

quote:
Its pretty much an issue brought up by people who don't like the fact that there is a standard out there that they know they should be living up to.

and

In criticizing a fallen moralizer, one admits to a standard of some kind, and thus is himself a moralizer.

Now, this does bring up the question of gambling itself. Is it as Mitch Albom says, that Bennett was hedonistic and materialistic, etc, and that he is hypocritical because of the quote in his book?

Well, I think John is on to something here. Hedonism and materialism is not necessarily to be found within the possessions one has. Read the “Christians and Riches???” thread www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=&whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=1169. Also, Charen brought up this question.

quote:
Suppose he had spent a comparable amount of money on a luxurious yacht, or vacation homes in London, Paris and Rio (and he may have, for all we know). Would that make headlines? No way.

So, IMHO, there is a difference between having possessions and gambling. On the cultural front, no, Bennett did nothing morally questionable. But AS A CHRISTIAN, I would have a problem with Bennett’s gambling because he kneels down at the altar to the god of chance. That is, there is a difference between “throwing money away” and getting something in return and throwing money away in gambling. That’s just plain throwing it away!

Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com

Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 5/7/2003 4:12 AM (GMT -6)

My only thought is, 8 million dollars? Bill Bill Bill, gamble on God, give 8 million to missionaries and see what happens.

Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through?

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/7/2003 4:17 AM (GMT -6)

Actually, as I understand it? Bill gave eight million to his favorite casino charity

but he got back that much in return so he was pretty much evened out. But that was cute Laika, like Greg says. Also, you make a good point about giving to missionaries. Some see this as "economic evangelism."

Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com

ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655

Posted 5/7/2003 4:29 AM (GMT -6)

I know many conservative Christians who feel that gambling in and of itself is sinful. I don't believe that- but if it is true that he actually lost $8 million, that is really sad and a waste of God-given resources. It went to support the casino industry- not the most upstanding industry in the world. And it shows utmost greed and avarice- things which Jesus spoke strongly about.

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is true."
- James Branch Cabell

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 5/7/2003 6:36 PM (GMT -6)

ReasonableDoubt: I know many conservative Christians who feel that gambling in and of itself is sinful.

Doc: Speaking of which, did any of you read John Piper's article about how he and his church would never accept the tithe of a person who won the lottery? I heard it read over Dobson's Focus on the Family program (much to Dobson's approval). I think it was originally published in WORLD magazine. If anyone can locate it, it might be an interesting launching point for a discussion on a) whether gambling is intrinsically evil and b) whether churches should accept offers from a person who won the lottery.

Just so as not to leave anyone in suspence:

During our fundraising, when the national lottery was like up to 250 million, I (jokingly) told my congregation to play the lottery "in Jesus name." Pledge to give the whole thing to ministry (or at least 90% for crying out loud). God HAS to see how its to his advantage to let you win. Right?

I almost wanted to write a response to WORLD... a very short one... saying simply

WE AIN'T THAT HOLY. SEND'EM OUR WAY

DOC

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655

Posted 5/8/2003 4:59 AM (GMT -6)

Hey Greg,

I don't think there's anything wrong w/ playing the lottery. And fine if a church wants to accept that money. But to some Christians, the church accepting gambling receipts is like accepting money from the John Gotti family. Sure, that money could do a lot of good, but it's "dirty" money.

In the Chicago Tribune today was an article about how Mayor Daley is seeking to get a casino in Chicago to raise money for the city, since we're so in the red. Here's what the columnist, Eric Zorn, said:
"So we return to the question that shades this issue: Is there something inherently, morally wrong about wagering?

Anyone who raises it is asking to be labeled a Puritan or a would-be member of the U.S. auxiliary of the Taliban. From baccarat to basketball pools to bingo nights, games of chance are utterly mainstream in our culture and in most cases utterly harmless diversions for individual players, some of whom, of course, come out ahead.

Yet the lure of gambling--the large payoff for a minimal investment--is antithetical to the connection between effort and reward that we know to be associated not only with strong, successful individuals, but also with strong, successful societies.

The high-minded part of us says shortcuts are for the lazy and disreputable, a form of cheating, even.

The everyday part of us buys lottery tickets when the jackpot swells. Because as much as it's human nature to value effort and reward, it's also human nature to want instant gratification. This tension is at the heart of what theologians call sin, said Gerald Forshey of La Grange, a retired Methodist minister and ethics professor who has spoken out against gambling.

But the "sin" argument "has been conceded" by the National Coalition Against Legalized Gambling and similar mainstream groups, Forshey said. "That argument is just fuel for [the gambling lobby] to portray opponents as do-gooders," and in today's climate, he said, it's "easily defeated."

No doubt. But we all know it's there. It's why we intuitively know that a casino isn't just another big business, like a huge hardware store only with chaser lights and a free buffet; why we know that a video poker machine in a tavern isn't just another electronic amusement; why we know that the question of whether to salt our state with new slot machines is far more significant than the question of whether to build new roads or cut curbs.

Whether we think gambling is immoral or a pleasure to which free people are entitled, we know that it celebrates our lesser selves. And such celebrations always have their hidden costs."

It just seems kind of ironic that a man who made millions off his "Book of Virtues" was so caught up in this vice.

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is true."
- James Branch Cabell

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/8/2003 6:23 AM (GMT -6)

"Play the lottery in Jesus name..." HA! Good one! That's a hoot!

Let me say this much about "dirty money."

A. As I said on the "Christians and Riches???" thread, a minister one time said, "I'd take money from the devil if he'd give it to me!" I don't know if I would follow that in EVERY circumstance but in some circumstances I think I would have no problem with it. That is, I am making the assumption that in some circumstances IT'S AS IF THE money came from the devil himself and it is "dirty" in others it is not.

B. Some money may truly be "dirty." In that it has been recieved by ill gotten means. A hooker. A pop-off of an enemy. Judas and thirty pieces of silver.

C. Money coming from "the system" is very hard to determine as being dirty. Again, Jesus was involved in the "evil system" of Rome. Yet he shows us by his example that we can be in the world but not of it. I drive for the Casino here in Windsor. I am hired by our transit company but we contract to the Casino. This is where the issue of the morality of dirty money becomes that much more complex and moves into the realm of "personal conviction." I'm sure some Christians may think that it is wrong that I am doing EVEN THIS MUCH!

Lastly, I have NEVER gambled in my life. I personally believe that it is wrong for me to do so. YET, I would take money from the lottery and from the Casino if I won it. How do I justify this? I didn't gamble MY money! That is, if someone bought me a lottery ticket, or if someone bought me coins for the slot machines or other games. Therefore, I didn't WASTE MY MONEY. Therefore, I was still a good steward of MY money. As you can see, at this point, I become HIGHLY individualistic. But I think in a biblical way. Again, MY personal conviction.

I may be inconsistent in the eyes of some, but it is a big issue. I am open to correction on this. A response involves much more than what we "see on the surface" or as Greg mentioned, "whether gambling is intrinsically evil." More than it being just a money issue or a morality of money question, one would have to look into the matter of ethics and ethical decision making, being stewards, the issue of leisure and what sanctifies it and when is it ungodly?

It is an interesting topic though. Big one, but interesting.

Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/8/2003 6:37 AM (GMT -6)

Oh. I also forgot to mention something. I know of Christians who work as dealers AT THE Casino. Some work as porters who clean the floors and hotel rooms. Some work in security. Some in the kitchen. Some in management. Are they wrong? What if this was their only means of survival? I use this sparingly, but WWJD? Some are not directly involved in the gambling itself, but are involved in "the ripple effect" the off-shoot of gambling. Kinda like a factory. There is Chrysler but Chrysler has many autonomous factories that "feed" Chrysler. They are not owned by Chrysler, they just feed parts to the bigger Chrysler mother ship. Same diff. Are they wrong?

Also, should not the question of gambling be reframed in terms of "waste?" If that is the case, is wasting your time just as sinful?

Lastly,

quote:
WE AIN'T THAT HOLY. SEND'EM OUR WAY

Hee, hee, hee...

Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com

Edited by - BBBCanada on 05/08/2003 11:54:22 AM

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/8/2003 6:48 AM (GMT -6)

Oh and I forgot something again.

I know one Christian scholar, Cameron Lee, has pointed out the "virtues" that Bill Bennett speaks about are NOT THAT VIRTUOUS. As a matter of fact, a lot of what gets passed off as "traditional (Christian/Judeo-Christian) family values" is actually secular values wrapped up in Christian garb. So this raises the question of how distinctly Christian are Bennett's books?

Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/8/2003 7:00 AM (GMT -6)

Ok. This is it. I forgot something again. Talk about Greg's fundraising. I had a professor at Christ for the Nations who quoted another pastor at offering time, "The Bible says God loves a cheerful giver. But around here we'll take any kind." LOL!

Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com

Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 5/8/2003 7:39 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Ok. This is it. I forgot something again. Talk about Greg's fundraising. I had a professor at Christ for the Nations who quoted another pastor at offering time, "The Bible says God loves a cheerful giver. But around here we'll take any kind." LOL!

I know a couple that retired from working for the Coors Brewery and went to Japan as missionaries. Imagine that, the Coors Brewery pension plan supporting missionaries. Imagine the ways you can help support those people, burp.

Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through?

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/8/2003 8:37 AM (GMT -6)

LOL! So is someone a brewski around here? I bet they are rich Christians in Japan because of you.

Brandon
"Mommy, I know now that the terms, 'I'll knock yo' teeth down yo' throat!' meant you'd love me in the special way you do everyday of my life."--Darwin Hobbs
www.darwinhobbs.com

Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 5/8/2003 8:44 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

LOL! So is someone a brewski around here? I bet they are rich Christians in Japan because of you.

NO NO NO, I DO NOT condone Christians drinking beer. But if they did, they could do no better than Chimay Abbey Ale (Belgium) or Aass Bock (Norway). Or so I've heard...... ;-b . ..

They're rich in Japan because I buy Japanese music like there's no tomorrow.

Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through?

SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278

Posted 5/8/2003 10:27 AM (GMT -6)

Bennett never broke a law, nor did he hide his passion for gambling (in fact even mentioning it on TV and radio). All the casinos have are what he bought in chips (i.e., $8-million), but he could have won back $6-million of it. Also, that $2-million loss could be like me losing $300. He is a wealthy man you know. Bennett never said, “I did not have gambling relations with that casino” in front of the American public (a Clinton spin). He was very open about his love for gambling. Nor has he ever spoken out about gambling. If he had written books and preached about why and how to stay married, and that this is what God wants, like Charles Stanley, and then he got divorced… he would then be a hypocrite.

All that being said, the liberal has no worldview that can really condemn such an act as a moral stain to one’s family. They are borrowing our worldview to use temporarily in order to secure votes. I am glad that the Bible states that leaders of the flock will be held to a higher moral standard when judged. And as the body of Christ, we can use the Bible as doctrine for reproof. And Bennett will come out of this better than before.

Much thought, SeanG

Edited by - SeanG on 05/08/2003 3:29:24 PM

AlyoshaKaramazov
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 49

Posted 5/8/2003 7:28 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
nor did he hide his passion for gambling (in fact even mentioning it on TV and radio).

Sean, where and when did he publically express his passion for high stakes gambling?

quote:
If he had written books and preached about why and how to stay married, and that this is what God wants, like Charles Stanley, and then he got divorced… he would then be a hypocrite

Maybe, but I think you need to be more cynical, Sean. I'm wagering my bet, lame pun intended, that Bennett just has a major gambling problem/addiction and didn't write against gambling because of the cognitive dissonance it would have caused him because of the incongruity between his words and life. I mean, am I really supposed to believe that he just got a kick out of losing millions of dollars to the house? Now if you'll excuse me, I've got an appointment back with reality.

"Take the place of my heart, till I become a stranger to my life."
--Jars of Clay

John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 5/9/2003 6:43 AM (GMT -6)

One of the basic presuppositions I work from is that morality lies in motives.

I am wondering if anyone can come up with a righteous motive for gambling; i.e., a motive that Bible doesn't condemn.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 05/09/2003 5:32:41 PM

honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 5/9/2003 9:26 AM (GMT -6)

The 8 million dollar figure was thrown out by his critics, has been denied by both Bennett and his wife. Maybe the subject of gossip should be brought up as well...

honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 5/9/2003 9:29 AM (GMT -6)

AK: maybe you should be a little LESS cynical. All who know Bennett testify to the stability and virture of his children and his married life. You assume he is addicted to gambling, yet you have no proof. People who are addicted, it affects their family. There is no evidence this is the case with Bennett.
You may be excused, just make sure the reality you go back to is real...

Edited by - honorman on 05/09/2003 2:30:48 PM

ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655

Posted 5/9/2003 9:45 AM (GMT -6)

According to Reuters:
William Bennett, author of "The Book of Virtues" and other books on morality, said on Monday he was quitting gambling amid media reports that he lost $8 million in the last decade playing slot machines and video poker.

"It is true that I have gambled large sums of money," Bennett said in a statement. "I have also complied with all laws on reporting wins and losses.

"Nevertheless I have done too much gambling, and this is not an example I wish to set. Therefore my gambling days are over."

Whether the $8 million figure is completely accurate or not, Bennett himself seems to be acknowledging that he has done too much. Good for him.

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is true."
- James Branch Cabell

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